Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I'm low laddered so my experience/opinion is skewed but there's nothing more satisfying in the world than forcing a dead brained HO team to forfeit against the unmovable wall that is Garganacl and for that reason I will always be fond of it, regardless of its viablity/likeabilty in the tier.

That being said, I was a little gagged 2 days ago when even Garganacl couldn't stop the runaway freight train that was CB Baxcalibur. Whew, talk about being humbled.
 
I know Volc got more support on the last survey but I still would greatly appreciate a Kingambit suspect soon

It just puts too much pressure on both team building and on the flow of a game. It's like a way too overpowered comeback mechanic from a fighting game. Your entire team can be dead, but some positioning with a gambit and the one or two ways of handling it being removed into a SD just seems unstoppable

Volc is a bitch to deal with but I usually find natural ways to deal with it. It's still very straining but I feel like much less so than Gambit
 
this may or may not be a completely deranged take, but we may be sleeping on electrode-hisui due to electrode-k's horrible performance. electrode-h has:
  • the second highest speed stat in the game
  • usable stab combo
  • fast volt switch
  • no ground weakness
  • soundproof to beat dirge, static to para physical attackers, aftermath can be used to chip physical attackers
additionally, it can run specs + modest (unless you REALLY wanna outspeed dragapult), so it ends up at 389 or 426 spatk (depending on which nature you choose). It doesn't get too many notable oneshots, but some calcs are interesting due to their ramifications on electrode-h's role:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 768-906 (176.9 - 208.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 187-222 (48.9 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 192-226 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 168-198 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

while electrode-h isn't likely to oneshot many potential switchins, the grass typing will make it very hard to stop its pivoting. also, electrode-h threatens ohkos on pokemon such as tusk, garg, and pex, allowing it to simultaneously threaten to stallbreak and pivot to a stronger mon. as another potential option, you could slot in tera ice tera blast, threatening to punish switchins such as zapdos, clodsire, lando-t, and grass or dragon-types. it even has a chance to oneshot dragonite:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Electrode-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

i definitely wouldn't want to waste tera on this, but having the option might allow for some crazy things. it looks promising enough to maybe be a heat pivot/breaker to keep in the back pocket during teambuilding.
 
Local Dog said:
I know Volc got more support on the last survey but I still would greatly appreciate a Kingambit suspect soon

It just puts too much pressure on both team building and on the flow of a game. It's like a way too overpowered comeback mechanic from a fighting game. Your entire team can be dead, but some positioning with a gambit and the one or two ways of handling it being removed into a SD just seems unstoppable

Volc is a bitch to deal with but I usually find natural ways to deal with it. It's still very straining but I feel like much less so than Gambit
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I get the sentiment, but kinggambit is basically the only thing keeping ghosts in check right now. Ghosts have almost nothing to fear besides it, and its powerful Sucker punch helps keep HO in check as well. It’s definitely borderline, but i think the tier is better off keeping it than removing it, at least for now.
 
kosecant said:
I get the sentiment, but kinggambit is basically the only thing keeping ghosts in check right now. Ghosts have almost nothing to fear besides it, and its powerful Sucker punch helps keep HO in check as well. It’s definitely borderline, but i think the tier is better off keeping it than removing it, at least for now.
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IKR? That's why I agree on getting it banned. Underrated icons Pult and Gholdy would be a bit better which is good since they mean no harm :psysly:
 
hi all

What mons/cores does Slither Wing work well with? Obviously Sun but what else can take good advantage of fast strong U-Turns?
And can somebody catch me up on meta shifts since Walking Wake and Zoroark-H? I haven't played in forever
 
charlieX7 said:
this may or may not be a completely deranged take, but we may be sleeping on electrode-hisui due to electrode-k's horrible performance. electrode-h has:
  • the second highest speed stat in the game
  • usable stab combo
  • fast volt switch
  • no ground weakness
  • soundproof to beat dirge, static to para physical attackers, aftermath can be used to chip physical attackers
additionally, it can run specs + modest (unless you REALLY wanna outspeed dragapult), so it ends up at 389 or 426 spatk (depending on which nature you choose). It doesn't get too many notable oneshots, but some calcs are interesting due to their ramifications on electrode-h's role:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 768-906 (176.9 - 208.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 187-222 (48.9 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 192-226 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 168-198 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

while electrode-h isn't likely to oneshot many potential switchins, the grass typing will make it very hard to stop its pivoting. also, electrode-h threatens ohkos on pokemon such as tusk, garg, and pex, allowing it to simultaneously threaten to stallbreak and pivot to a stronger mon. as another potential option, you could slot in tera ice tera blast, threatening to punish switchins such as zapdos, clodsire, lando-t, and grass or dragon-types. it even has a chance to oneshot dragonite:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Electrode-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

i definitely wouldn't want to waste tera on this, but having the option might allow for some crazy things. it looks promising enough to maybe be a heat pivot/breaker to keep in the back pocket during teambuilding.
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Unironically looking forward to trying this out. Would you run Chloroblast?
 
charlieX7 said:
this may or may not be a completely deranged take, but we may be sleeping on electrode-hisui due to electrode-k's horrible performance. electrode-h has:
  • the second highest speed stat in the game
  • usable stab combo
  • fast volt switch
  • no ground weakness
  • soundproof to beat dirge, static to para physical attackers, aftermath can be used to chip physical attackers
additionally, it can run specs + modest (unless you REALLY wanna outspeed dragapult), so it ends up at 389 or 426 spatk (depending on which nature you choose). It doesn't get too many notable oneshots, but some calcs are interesting due to their ramifications on electrode-h's role:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 768-906 (176.9 - 208.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 187-222 (48.9 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 192-226 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 168-198 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

while electrode-h isn't likely to oneshot many potential switchins, the grass typing will make it very hard to stop its pivoting. also, electrode-h threatens ohkos on pokemon such as tusk, garg, and pex, allowing it to simultaneously threaten to stallbreak and pivot to a stronger mon. as another potential option, you could slot in tera ice tera blast, threatening to punish switchins such as zapdos, clodsire, lando-t, and grass or dragon-types. it even has a chance to oneshot dragonite:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Electrode-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

i definitely wouldn't want to waste tera on this, but having the option might allow for some crazy things. it looks promising enough to maybe be a heat pivot/breaker to keep in the back pocket during teambuilding.
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you know, i was thinking along the same lines. look how much people underrated hisuian zoroark because of how mid regular zoroark has been through its entire history (and now it's doomed to forever be directly outclassed in its one role because any game with zoroark must also have h-zoroark available). most people were expecting it to be somewhat better but not a big radical ou hit, but it turned out to be insanely good because of the unique three immunities and the general ghost-favoring climate of the meta, which it exploits both as a ghost-type and as a switch-in to ghost-types. stat-wise, hisuian electrode doesn't have much going for it outside of pure speed, but it will be the fastest subseeder to ever exist in a meta where substitute is the best it's been in ages
 
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charlieX7 said:
this may or may not be a completely deranged take, but we may be sleeping on electrode-hisui due to electrode-k's horrible performance. electrode-h has:
  • the second highest speed stat in the game
  • usable stab combo
  • fast volt switch
  • no ground weakness
  • soundproof to beat dirge, static to para physical attackers, aftermath can be used to chip physical attackers
additionally, it can run specs + modest (unless you REALLY wanna outspeed dragapult), so it ends up at 389 or 426 spatk (depending on which nature you choose). It doesn't get too many notable oneshots, but some calcs are interesting due to their ramifications on electrode-h's role:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 768-906 (176.9 - 208.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 187-222 (48.9 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 192-226 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Electrode-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 168-198 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

while electrode-h isn't likely to oneshot many potential switchins, the grass typing will make it very hard to stop its pivoting. also, electrode-h threatens ohkos on pokemon such as tusk, garg, and pex, allowing it to simultaneously threaten to stallbreak and pivot to a stronger mon. as another potential option, you could slot in tera ice tera blast, threatening to punish switchins such as zapdos, clodsire, lando-t, and grass or dragon-types. it even has a chance to oneshot dragonite:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Electrode-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

i definitely wouldn't want to waste tera on this, but having the option might allow for some crazy things. it looks promising enough to maybe be a heat pivot/breaker to keep in the back pocket during teambuilding.
Click to expand...
I don't really think specs is the play. Both electric and grass are horrible typings to lock yourself into, and so many mons can exploit that, especially in such an unga bunga gen. You might 2HKO Lando (if they don't just switch out) but then you're giving Kingambit or Dragonite a free turn. I think boots offensive pivot is probably the most viable set, if anything, since Volt Switch pivots that deter Ground-type switch-ins with their other STAB are pretty nice. I think that's mostly all it has going for it other than hehe fast.
 
Ctann said:
This replay made me wonder..

which is scarier: Glaive rush Bax or knock off Meowscarada?

:baxcalibur: v. :meowscarada:

unsure how to make a poll, thoughts?
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Baxcalibur has the raw power of FE8 Seth or something like that, but Meowscarada has insane speed
If both come in safely vs a defensive Pokémon I’d much rather it be Meowscarada over Baxcalibur, but I’d much rather face Baxcalibur over Meowscarada if I’m running a faster team.
 
Ruft said:
I disagree that it would be a "nice idea". Wicked Blow itself isn't an inherently broken move; it would be an arbitrary nerf to a broken Pokemon (though this remains to be seen in SV).
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Not that I disagree, please explain how Wicked Blow isn’t an inherently broken move.
 
Xufactor3 said:
Wicked Blow was always the problem, and not Urshifu.
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the entire idea behind the shed tail ban was the move being broken, the pokemon are not the issue at all

its like smeargle abusing dark void back in gen 6, it shows that if a mon who is even semi usable can abuse a broken move, people will find a way to make it work.
same thing with orthworm, who is honestly quite garbage in ou, but still saw absurd usage because shed tail was THAT GOOD

comparing a really broken signature move on an already good pokemon making it broken is not a good comparison, man
 
cosmogii said:
the entire idea behind the shed tail ban was the move being broken, the pokemon are not the issue at all

its like smeargle abusing dark void back in gen 6, it shows that if a mon who is even semi usable can abuse a broken move, people will find a way to make it work.
same thing with orthworm, who is honestly quite garbage in ou, but still saw absurd usage because shed tail was THAT GOOD

comparing a really broken signature move on an already good pokemon making it broken is not a good comparison, man
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Urshifu would not be an issue in gen 8 without wicked blow, not sure about gen 9
 
Xufactor3 said:
Not that I disagree, please explain how Wicked Blow isn’t an inherently broken move.
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Wicked Blow in comparison to other offensive moves is not that insane, it has 75 bp and always crits (for an effective 112.5 base BP, as well as ignoring stat changes).

It is strictly weaker than other powerful moves that have had acceptable power levels in the past, such as V-Create, Eruption, Water Spout, Boomburst, Draco Meteor and a ton of other widely used moves like High Jump Kick, Close Combat, Brave Bird, etc.

The difference between banning offensive moves to status moves is that some offensive moves are objectively better than other offensive moves, obviously Wicked Blow has use cases where it's a better move than these, but for base level damage, Close Combat is actually better for Urshifu to click than Wicked Blow, simply by doing more damage.

Additionally, Base Power is obviously going to be entirely relative to the pokemon's base stats. Obviously a mon like smeargle isn't going to be as strong using Wicked Blow as Urshifu-S is. There is a debate to be had as to when BP becomes too high, V-Create was seen as generally acceptable due to the drawbacks, but a move like Last Respects and even Rage Fist hit up to 300 and 350 base power respectively.
Ultimately I'm not entirely sure when we can say an offensive move becomes inherently broken, I'm just pretty sure Wicked Blow doesn't tread that line.
 
Xufactor3 said:
Not that I disagree, please explain how Wicked Blow isn’t an inherently broken move.
Click to expand...
Wicked Blow is simply a strong attack. If you were to give it to a Pokemon that is weaker than Urshifu no one would ever think to ban it. It doesn't enable broken or arguably uncompetitive strategies like previously banned moves like Baton Pass and Shed Tail did.
 
Ruft said:
Wicked Blow is simply a strong attack. If you were to give it to a Pokemon that is weaker than Urshifu no one would ever think to ban it. It doesn't enable broken or arguably uncompetitive strategies like previously banned moves like Baton Pass and Shed Tail did.
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If you were to give Wicked Blow to King Gambit or Roaring Moon, would there be discussions to ban them?

Shed tail is a really strong move. It would not be broken on some ZU Pokémon.

Some Pokemon would be broken and some not broken with the two moves. The difference is in magnitude
 
Xufactor3 said:
If you were to give Wicked Blow to King Gambit or Roaring Moon, would there be discussions to ban them?

Shed tail is a really strong move. It would not be broken on some ZU Pokémon.

Some Pokemon would be broken and some not broken with the two moves. The difference is in magnitude, not a rule
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Potentially, since these mons are both very strong physical attackers, but that's not a fault with Wicked Blow. Heck, if RM or KG got Knock Off in the current state of the meta they would likely be discussed for bans.
 
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