FOR THE POLL: Please READ the thread first before voting! Note that the poll is taken in consideration of ALL forms of Garchomps. For the many of you who voted it for the test or Uber, explain why it is too strong, and for the ones who voted for OU, explain how is it not overcentralizing the game. Or else your votes would be quite obsolete, if you cannot put an argument to it. WANTING IT TO STAY IN OU BECAUSE OF YOU LIKE IT IS NOT A REASON, so if you are standing on that side, put a better argument. :D
Oh, the infamous Garchomp. With various ways of using and a large movepool. Today, of course, Garchomp is OU, but...
#1) There's not one counter that is purely SAFE to switch into a Garchomp, unless it is locked to a choice set. (Encorers probably will get killed by this thing.)
#2) Base Stats: 108 / 130 / 95 / 90 / 85 / 102
The base speed CAN allow it to outspeed the huge load of Pokemon with base speed 100, 95 or lower... (Obviously)
#3) Scarf set, with Adamant STAB 120-Power Outrage can HURT.
#4) It does learn Fire Blast to take out things like Skarmory, Bronzong and Metagross.
#5) It has been proven that a Garchomp CAN take a Well-trained Kingdra's STAB Surf in Rain!
#6) Sandstorm + Bright Powder + Sand Veil = Miss, Miss, Hit (finally), but YOU got killed... Ice Shard FTW fails if missed, and Weavile/Mamoswine dies upon taking any damage from Garchomp. Sash won't work due to Sandstorm. Just giving everyone an idea. Sandstream + Sand Veil + BrightPowder = 72% accuracy on all attacks other than the ones that cannot miss, on this thing called Garchomp. Here's a calculation of the missing chances:
#7) Also, if for some odd but obvious reason that one do carry Yache Berry on Garchomp, it CAN take Ice Shard with a good EV spread and IV attribute.
#8) Dragonite/Salamence are NOT immune to Thunder Wave. Garchomp is.
#9) Cresselia's Moonlight healing: Screwed up by Sandstorm.
THE MAIN QUESTION IS: IS IT TOO BROKEN IN OU?
So put more argument overall rather than just one part :D.
--- Any other factors please post. I can only think of so much right now xD. Please discuss? :naughty:
Question is: Should Garchomp be moved to Uber?
Also, the definition of OVERCENTRALIZING is: One or more Pokemon is forced to be included on a certain team to counter a certain Pokemon or its setup. For example: Blissey or Shedinja for Kyogres. (Other counters such as Lati@s, Groudon, etc are not counters because they cannot be safely switched in.)
*Side note: Don't just say "he's OU because he is now", that doesn't give much info.
And don't say "It's OU because I love it too much!"... I love Mewtwo. He is not OU...
"Just because something sucks in Ubers is no reason to keep it in OU." Please look at Garchomp in how good OR overpowered he is in OU, not how horrible he will do in Uber. Just to let you know, without scarf, he can outspeed Rayquaza. With Scarf: He can outspeed Palkia, Latias, Latios, Dialga, Darkrai, Giratina, etc... (Outrage kills probably all besides maybe Dialga and Giratina). Dialga is killed by STAB Earthquake.
However, if you DO look in the perspective of Uber, Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza's change in weather or Air-Lock automatically eat the Sand Veil + BrightPowder type of Garchomp...
SO DISCUSS AWAY :D.
Oh, the infamous Garchomp. With various ways of using and a large movepool. Today, of course, Garchomp is OU, but...
#1) There's not one counter that is purely SAFE to switch into a Garchomp, unless it is locked to a choice set. (Encorers probably will get killed by this thing.)
#2) Base Stats: 108 / 130 / 95 / 90 / 85 / 102
The base speed CAN allow it to outspeed the huge load of Pokemon with base speed 100, 95 or lower... (Obviously)
#3) Scarf set, with Adamant STAB 120-Power Outrage can HURT.
#4) It does learn Fire Blast to take out things like Skarmory, Bronzong and Metagross.
#5) It has been proven that a Garchomp CAN take a Well-trained Kingdra's STAB Surf in Rain!
#6) Sandstorm + Bright Powder + Sand Veil = Miss, Miss, Hit (finally), but YOU got killed... Ice Shard FTW fails if missed, and Weavile/Mamoswine dies upon taking any damage from Garchomp. Sash won't work due to Sandstorm. Just giving everyone an idea. Sandstream + Sand Veil + BrightPowder = 72% accuracy on all attacks other than the ones that cannot miss, on this thing called Garchomp. Here's a calculation of the missing chances:
There would be 1 - (.72 x .72 x .72) = 62.6752% that something will hit it all 3 turns. So there's a 37.3248% chance that at least 1 move will miss out of 3 turns of sub.
Taking advantage of replacing Brightpowder with Leftovers, allowing 4 substitutes with the slight heal, you will have 1 - (.8 x .8 x .8 x .8) = 59.04% of hitting all 3 turns, which is 40.96% chance of having the opponent missing at least 1 move. This is actually even better than the Brightpowder idea really, but of course, it leaves you with less HP after 4 Subs and the Leftover on an Item Claused game.
So yes, in general, it has a 37-41% chance of missing... Not 2%.
#7) Also, if for some odd but obvious reason that one do carry Yache Berry on Garchomp, it CAN take Ice Shard with a good EV spread and IV attribute.
#8) Dragonite/Salamence are NOT immune to Thunder Wave. Garchomp is.
#9) Cresselia's Moonlight healing: Screwed up by Sandstorm.
THE MAIN QUESTION IS: IS IT TOO BROKEN IN OU?
I was glancing at this thread and it seems those who are coming up with reasons why Garchomp should stay OU are only picking out one part of Garchomp and ignoring the rest.
Garchomp has Excellent defensive and offensive stats. Garchomp is a top tier OU pokemon so much so that it topped the mightly Blissey for the 1# Overused pokemon in the game. Garchomps STAB combo of Ground/Dragon is almost unresisted. Sand Veil with SS only boosts Garchomp futher by making pokemon that are supposed to counter him miss. Has a plethora of many powerful sets that can mess up counters coming in and expecting another.
So can anyone elaborate on why people only choose one part of Garchomp to give an opinion on and ignore the rest when saying it should stay in OU?
So put more argument overall rather than just one part :D.
--- Any other factors please post. I can only think of so much right now xD. Please discuss? :naughty:
Question is: Should Garchomp be moved to Uber?
Also, the definition of OVERCENTRALIZING is: One or more Pokemon is forced to be included on a certain team to counter a certain Pokemon or its setup. For example: Blissey or Shedinja for Kyogres. (Other counters such as Lati@s, Groudon, etc are not counters because they cannot be safely switched in.)
Just to give you guys an idea. Also, Agility Metagross does GREAT on switching into Weavile/Mamoswine/Donphan's band Ice Shards.Donphan takes 45-53% from CB EQ and 54-63% from Outrage.
I love it when counters gets 2hko'd. Meanwhile Donphan's Ice Shard only does 41-48% to Garchomp with no defensive EV's. If you have CB, then it does 61-73%. If Donphan is the best counter, then wow, Garchomp would be on every team.
*Side note: Don't just say "he's OU because he is now", that doesn't give much info.
And don't say "It's OU because I love it too much!"... I love Mewtwo. He is not OU...
"Just because something sucks in Ubers is no reason to keep it in OU." Please look at Garchomp in how good OR overpowered he is in OU, not how horrible he will do in Uber. Just to let you know, without scarf, he can outspeed Rayquaza. With Scarf: He can outspeed Palkia, Latias, Latios, Dialga, Darkrai, Giratina, etc... (Outrage kills probably all besides maybe Dialga and Giratina). Dialga is killed by STAB Earthquake.
However, if you DO look in the perspective of Uber, Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza's change in weather or Air-Lock automatically eat the Sand Veil + BrightPowder type of Garchomp...
SO DISCUSS AWAY :D.