Seems fun, I do think sleep clause should be added thoI've posted my metagame in the OM submission forum and got a "Could you post it on the metagame workshop to see if there's enough interest on it?" so that's why of the double post'. Presenting, Eye-To-Eye! Below is a spoilered version of my submission'
Eye-to-Eye
Do you like the checks and counters of Singles but want to use moves only useful in Doubles? Are you turned off by the big predictions needed to play Doubles while still liking the idea of controling two pokemon at once? And more important of all, do you want tought as nails but rewarding positioning puzzles?
Then fear not, my friend! For I have the metagame for you: Eye-to-Eye! The rule is simple: You can only direct a move at the mon directly in front of your mon.
For example! Let's say your left mon is Amoongus, your right mon is Arcanine and your opponent's left mon is Chien-Pao and their right mon is Dragapult.
Amoongus can only use Spore on Chien-Pao (since they're both on the left) while Arcanine can only attack Dragapult. They can only attack the pokemon they're seeing, well, eye to eye! This rule only affects moves that target - spread moves and moves that target the self (like Rage Powder) are completely unaffected. You still can use moves onto your partner pokemon - you just can't attack diagonally anymore.
- Q: What is changed, exactly, mechanically? A: You know when you click Flamethrower and the game asks you what pokemon on the field to attack? In this OM you can only chose as a target the pokemon on the same side of the field as you.
- Q: What about spread moves? A: Spread moves are unchanged and still hit all the targets that they would normally.
- Q: Can you target a move on your teammate, like Pollen Puff? A: Yes.
- Q: Does Intimidate still affect both opponents? A: Yes; all abilities and items are unchanged.
- Q: What about Rage Powder and Follow Me? A: The moves work as normal. The rule only changes who you can direct the attack at when you click it, not where it will end up.
- Q: What if my opponent clicks Fly or Dive? A: The mon directly in front of the flying pokemon still has to target the flying or diving pokemon, even if that means missing.
- Q: What if my opponent is on their last pokemon and I have two? A: In this scenario you can target their last pokemon with both of yours.
- Q: What if I only have one pokemon and my opponent has two? A: In this scenario your pokemon can still only attack the pokemon right in front of it.
- Q: What about Tatsugiri + Dondozo? A: Same scenario as questions 7 and 8: Dondozo can only attack the pokemon directly in front of it while both of the opponent's pokemons can attack it.
This simple rule turns the game from a 2v2 into, essentially, two 1v1s - however there still are ways to have the two 1v1s affect eachother, leading to a gameplay completely different to anything done before.
Let's talk about some of the implications for this format.
- Implication 1: Doubling up on an opponent's mon is no longer possible. This means Protect is nowhere near as useful and that more consistent defensive play is possible. Still, spread moves still exist and affect both of your mons so being hit by two moves in the same turn is still possible, just not as devasting.
- Implication 2: You are playing two spicy and interconnected games of Singles. This means that many things that are good in singles but aren't as good in doubles - stall, setup sweepers, etc, are now viable. On the other hand many elements that are better in doubles than in singles - elements like Trick Room, spread moves, Tailwind, etc are buffed. This leads to an exciting and new format where many more possibilities are open.
- Implication 3: Your check may be on the wrong side. This is a massive implication that can be the ruin of a careless stall team. Imagine a scenario like this:
O, the horror! If this was two different games of 1v1, it'd be fine: Armarogue can switch into the back Gastrodon and avoid the wrath of specs Iron Bundle's HPump and Gastrodon could switch into Armarogue and be safe from Tsareena. But since this is a game of Eye-To-Eye it is no longer that simple: You can't do that. This means that the Tsareena and Iron Bundle player, through their incredible positional play managed to get into a situation where neither of their stong attackers can be stopped! This makes playing with and against Stall and Hyper Offense teams much more fun as you're actively trying to gridlock them in a position like this.
That is, unless...
There's many more implications, of course, but these 5 are the main ones I'd say. The format would play with DOU clauses and banlist.
- Implication 4: Ally Switch now becomes a usable move. If you're gridlocked like that, with your checks on the wrong sides using Ally Switch can be a very beneficial play, allowing for very interesting situations. Some really good mons learn it, too: Armarouge, Farigiraf, Houndstone, Espathra, etc.
- Implication 5: Spread moves become much more, different. If you see the format through a Singles lens a pokemon that had to choose between Surf and Hydro Pump for their STAB now has a much more interesting choice rather than just "Do you want accuracy or power?", now asking if you wanna help your teammate (and do less damage to the mon in front of you) or use HPump and play your lane's game.
Things to keep an eye out for:
Sleep: DOU doesn't have sleep clause; in Doubles you can have both of your pokemons attack the sleeper before it puts mons to sleep, switch both of your mons out if they're both asleep for two healthy ones, etc. Here these counterplays are much more harder if not impossible to do; Sleep Clause may be needed but it's difficult to pin down right now.
Anything banned in OU that isn't banned in DOU: Since we are bringing a pace more similar to Singles to Doubles it might be worth keeping an eye out for anything deemed too good in Singles. It's early to say, but worth keeping an eye out for.
Heal Pulse & Pollen Puff: These two moves are very powerful here, even more so than in Doubles. If whatever is in front of a mon with one of these moves don't directly threaten it then they can spam these moves onto their partner, causing the partner pokemon to be practically unkillable until the healer is removed.
I've played a few testmatches with a friend since replicating it is just not targeting the wrong mon with the wrong move, and in my experience it's really dang fun. I highly recommend y'all to try it out when showdown goes back online since it's a blast. It really feels like a mix of doubles and singles while still having the four mons interact. Would y'all be interested in a meta like this?
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Project Metagame Workshop
- Thread starter KaenSoul
- Start date
Updated Version: Please Refer to this Post!
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I had an idea for an OM called Echomons!
*name pending
Metagame premise:
Your Pokémon echoes the type it's been attacked with, or it resonates inside you!
It's a pretty basic premise: being hit by a move, physical or special, will add a third type (correlating to the move you were hit by) at the end of the turn. Using a status move will change your third type to correlate with the type of said status move. If both moves attempt to change the same target, the last move used will decide the third type received. If the Pokémon already has the type in question, the Pokémon will not gain a third type.
It's similar to the other type-manipulating based OMs we've had, but it can create some interesting scenarios and strategies that either ruin or enable other Pokémon. For example, if you hit a Corviknight with a Water type move, it'll then become a Flying/Steel/Water type, making it 4x weak to an upcoming Electric attack. Likewise, if a Pokémon uses Toxic on the opponent, it may need to watch out for Earthquakes in the next turn, or protect to remove it's Poison type and change it into Normal.
I imagine Gholdengo can become an issue almost immediately. It has a really convenient type combination that allows it to ignore Fighting type moves that would otherwise target its Steel type. If it uses Nasty Plot, it would still be immune to Fighting and grant it a Dark neutrality for a turn. It's nothing that can't be played around, especially if you give it say, Electric type and then use Earthquake to try and scare it out.
Great Tusk, as pointed out by The Faz, could definitely be an issue. I would probably ban it immediately, though I'd like to see first.
While not a threat or a ban, I think Levitate will serve immensely popular in this theoretical metagame. Being able to negate a common offensive type is invaluable when multiple tri-combos will be weak or severely weak to Ground, and having that failsafe could allow otherwise dangerous combinations like of Fire, Electric, Rock and or Steel to have a safer time switching in.
While on the topic of type immunities, I don't think types would change based moves that they are immune to, like if a Water type attack hits a Storm Drain mon, then it won't change it's type into a Water type (Unless that would be interesting to add?).
Questions for the community:
Critique appreciated!
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I had an idea for an OM called Echomons!
*name pending
Metagame premise:
Your Pokémon echoes the type it's been attacked with, or it resonates inside you!
It's a pretty basic premise: being hit by a move, physical or special, will add a third type (correlating to the move you were hit by) at the end of the turn. Using a status move will change your third type to correlate with the type of said status move. If both moves attempt to change the same target, the last move used will decide the third type received. If the Pokémon already has the type in question, the Pokémon will not gain a third type.
It's similar to the other type-manipulating based OMs we've had, but it can create some interesting scenarios and strategies that either ruin or enable other Pokémon. For example, if you hit a Corviknight with a Water type move, it'll then become a Flying/Steel/Water type, making it 4x weak to an upcoming Electric attack. Likewise, if a Pokémon uses Toxic on the opponent, it may need to watch out for Earthquakes in the next turn, or protect to remove it's Poison type and change it into Normal.
- Terastelization would interfere with the flow of the metagame, and would take longer making it work with the game rather than just not allowing it. As such, Tera Clause would stay active. This is up for debate though, since it only changes the original types.
- All usual clauses will remain active, I assume.
- More than likely, this would be OU-Based.
I imagine Gholdengo can become an issue almost immediately. It has a really convenient type combination that allows it to ignore Fighting type moves that would otherwise target its Steel type. If it uses Nasty Plot, it would still be immune to Fighting and grant it a Dark neutrality for a turn. It's nothing that can't be played around, especially if you give it say, Electric type and then use Earthquake to try and scare it out.
Great Tusk, as pointed out by The Faz, could definitely be an issue. I would probably ban it immediately, though I'd like to see first.
While not a threat or a ban, I think Levitate will serve immensely popular in this theoretical metagame. Being able to negate a common offensive type is invaluable when multiple tri-combos will be weak or severely weak to Ground, and having that failsafe could allow otherwise dangerous combinations like of Fire, Electric, Rock and or Steel to have a safer time switching in.
While on the topic of type immunities, I don't think types would change based moves that they are immune to, like if a Water type attack hits a Storm Drain mon, then it won't change it's type into a Water type (Unless that would be interesting to add?).
Questions for the community:
- What would be an issue that I probably missed? I know I missed a lot of Pokémon that would definitely run rampant, but I just theorize mostly.
- What Format would this best be based around? OU? Ubers?
Critique appreciated!
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Cringe. Just make it so under tera your first 2 types are replaced by the tera type (as normal) but you keep the extra type you had pre-tera; I see no reason for the tera ban here. The format already is built upon mons quickly changing their type, being able to do it for free once-per-game won't break much. Also, "would take longer making it work with the game" if you're talking coding-wise then something taking longer to code is in no way a basis to ban something.
I see no reason why not to base it around OU.
Additional questions:
- What about moves that fail, like Last Resort?
- How would this mechanic interact with Protean/Libero?
- How would this mechanic interact with Soak?
- Ghost type attacks are super against ghost-type mons, and only Dark and Normal types can properly fend off against these attacks. What stops something like Ceruledge with Brick Break/Bitter Blade/Shadow Claw/4rth Move (Shadow Sneak, Coverage or some other move)? Fire move to attack Goldengo, spammable ghost moves that get even better on the second hit (due to typing change) and fighting coverage for dark and normal types.
- In fact, what stops stall and defensive teams to being completely destroyed by Fighting mons? Recover is a normal move, making fighting much more potent at stallbreaking. Many defensive moves are either normal or poison, two types Great Tusk appreciates greatly. What's stopping Tusk from destroying the format?
- It needs a more thorough FAQ
- How will defensive teams survive on a meta that seems skewed towards offensive team structures?
I like it,
I agree with faz, OU based,
I would play this probs
One thing tho, make the mechanic listed as "moves that affect you can give you a third type" that would make the inclusion of self affecting status moves more concise
Thank you for your comments. I'll try to address everything as I feel that it needs to be:
In regards to tera, the whole point of the meta is that the regular type combination is manipulated by the now "wild" third type. I suppose it'd be fine..? But I'd prefer if it wasn't allowed; it could always be tried out, however.
TL;DR, yeah maybe Tera could work. Dunno yet.
1. If it fails, it never activated, so just as if it was nullified by abilities that absorb the type, I imagine it'd be based on only if the move gave results.
2. Libero/Protean would act like Tera does I imagine. They only change the original two types to match the move they're about to use, and this meta only adds a type *after* they've been hit by a move. In other words, they have no correlation, and hence I don't think this is anything to worry about.
3. Soak will change the enemy's type to Water, and the user's third type to Water.
4. I see the issue, and I see two ways to approach that, sort of. For one, types being superior over another in OMs is not unheard of; there's been many times where the metagame has shaped around the strengths of one type and practically nonexistent for some others (see TCG's Dragon type or Steel type in Metronome battle; even though it's not an OM) The other way to see this is that not *every* Ghost type is going to be insanely good, and there's almost always a secondary type that you can target towards. See my Gholdengo argument: in this metagame you *can* find ways to break through Ghost types by forcing a type onto the Pokemon in question.
That, and if Ceruledge does become an issue, then there's always the case of "I don't know exactly what would be a threat or a ban. Thanks for pointing this out."
Great Tusk can definitely be looked at as a ban/threat. Thanks for pointing that out
5. Adds to the strategy. Of course, types are only changed at the END of the turn, meaning if a faster poke uses Recover it's not immediately going to be ruined by a Fighting type move. Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's always Detect to change your type to Fighting.
Yes, absolutely; I need a better FAQ. I don't know exactly what to ask because the metagame is unpredictable IMO. And yet, I feel as if there's still a strategy to be made from this unpredictability factor. If you can't break a Pokemon with few weaknesses, give it a type that you *can* break through.
Defensive Pokemon does have it a bit rougher in an offensively chaotic metagame. However. I don't think it's impossible. In what way? I can't say for certain.
Thanks for the critique! If I missed something that I should try to answer LMK. I went ahead and did some revisions to the original post.
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If you're referring to the hook sentence, that's just a way to oversimplify the metagame. I should clarify, it's a metagame where the moves that you get HIT by will and and change your THIRD type. If you use a status move, YOUR THIRD type is changed. The slowest Pokemon decides the type you become, since they move last in the turn.
Yeah, but I think it should specifically be moves that effect the pokemon
ex. Toxapex uses toxic, its type is not changed, but the mon it hits is changed
Toxapex uses recover, its given the third type normal
Roaring Moon uses EQ, RM type is not changed
Roaring Moon uses Roost RM gains flying type (or does it?)
This would stay within a single rule easily, if it affects you, it changes your type.
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I think the idea is that you change based on your offense and your defense, so there's almost always a moment where types are changed. If a Steel type uses Thunder Wave, part of the strategy is that you need to plan for the chaos that comes with your now Steel/Electric type.
And correct, if you're never hit, your type does not change, so RM wouldn't become Ground type by using Earthquake, but by using Roost, it gains Flying type as a third type. Using Roost again will remove the Flying type for the remainder of the turn as it does in any other battle, and you'd regain it like usual by the next turn. The strategy here is that now you're especially weak to Ice, meaning you should try to balance out your weakness or plan accordingly.
It's a chaotic metagame idea. But I don't think there's ever been a metagame where you can make advantages for yourself by attacking the opponent. More often than not, attacks will exchange. Ex. A Garchomp would use Outrage, gives its opponent Dragon type. Using it again will now be Super Effective. CHAOS! In that same way, if a Pokemon uses a Steel type move, the move will not be nearly as effective the second time it's used. However! You now give your opponent a Ground weakness! Abuse that!
I'd rather just have the mechanic be "whoever the move targets gets that type added". So Recover makes the user part Normal, but Will-O-Wisp makes the opponent part Fire (after it has already burned them, being Fire-type only prevents the application of burn, it doesn't cure it). It's simpler than "attacks change the opponent, status changes the user".
As for how the mechanic interacts with other type-changing stuff like Protean and Soak, it should probably work however Forest Curse and Trick-or-Treat work.
Also, I feel like the name could have something to do with Kecleon, considering the meta plays similar to like if everyone had Color Change.
As for how the mechanic interacts with other type-changing stuff like Protean and Soak, it should probably work however Forest Curse and Trick-or-Treat work.
Also, I feel like the name could have something to do with Kecleon, considering the meta plays similar to like if everyone had Color Change.
If we had a case of "status that targets opponents change their type" then how would moves like Copycat work? Sleep Talk? Would the move called change the opponents type to the move that was called, or Normal type, since both moves are Normal by default? In that way then, I think status changing the user's type is more clear-cut; and in the same way, makes the game more chaotic.
As for the last point; maybe? I just thought it'd be a bit confusing to say Colormons, and if it was named Chamelemons, then I'd say the inverse would make more sense for it (with every move basically just being Protean/Libero pre-nerf).
The artist in me said it was a good idea but now that I think about it... yeahhh it probably needs a better name. Echomons doesn't really work.
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We don't need to end the metagame's name with "mons". It could be Keckleon Cup, Color Change, Paintball, Paintjob, Conversion, etc. There are lots of other OM name ideas you could go for
Nah, Soak makes things pure Water, while the Grass/Ghost moves append Grass or Ghost to the target as a second or third type (and will overwrite each other), like what this meta is doing.
Copycat and Sleep Talk would either first make the user part Normal and then do whatever type stuff the move they call would do, or since they're just straight-up ignored by Protean, they would only do what the move they call would do.
That's right; I forgot haha. In that case... in a case of pure theoretical (since neither move is in SV), it would change both of the user's third types to Grass or Ghost. If the original Pokémon only had 1 type to begin with, it'd only change that bonus type it receives. This metagame only changes the additional type, not add a third. Sorry if that didn't get clarified until now.
The issue is that Copycat and Sleep Talk only call the move, but it still acts as if you're using Copycat or Sleep Talk. If I Sleep Talk Revival Blessing, it won't stop me from using Revival Blessing again if Sleep Talk calls Revival Blessing again. I don't think the move called should have any say over what type you become, rather the move you actually select has a say over the type you change into/set onto the opponent.
That's true. Color Change could be a fun metagame name? I'm down to change it to that actually. I was also thinking Type Chaos, but I'm open to any name ideas too.
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Shouldn't it be based on the code? If protean ignores Sleep Talk than why would this metagame not ignore it? If it does ignore the move that is called, both mons types would have to change when it calls an attack, which is weird and doesn't really fit imo.
Yeah thats what I was saying, just in more words lol
How is using a move like Toxic defense? That's offense, your afflicting a mon with a condition that will eventually kill them, there is no way thats defense. While recover heals you, which could be considered defense. I get that it would be more chaotic and therefor needs more planning that way, but OM's are supposed to be a single, liner rule, and the rule where it affects you your type gets changed is simpler then the status= my type changes, attack= your type changes rule.
Protean only changes the primary types of the Pokemon. When the type is added based on the move chosen, that will become your extra type.
Think of it like this: Greninja uses Spikes. It becomes a Ground type immediately due to Protean. Since this is a Status move, in theory, the Ground type is added as a bonus type (However it still is a mono Ground type since you cant have 2 of the same type.) Due to how Protean works, it only changes your type based on the first move you use.
- If you switch into a Pokemon and get hit by something, like lets say Tackle, your third type is now Normal, and hence you are a Water/Dark/Normal type for the next turn. If we're talking about whether Protean/Libero changes your third type, I'm unsure.
I didn't know Protean ignored Sleep Talk. But in this metagame, I assumed that if it registers as a Physical or a Special move, it would change the opponent's bonus type, and if it's a Status move, it'll change the user's bonus type to match the status that was used.
When a move is called by Sleep Talk, it would only register as a Status move being used, and hence would not change the opponent's third type. It'd only change the user's third type since they used a Status move.
This is practically opinion, but I think Toxic is as "defensive" as you can get. Spreading status, hazards, boosts, etc instead of attacking can all be considered defensive in a way. I wouldn't call getting hit by Toxic Spikes an attack, much like I wouldn't call Toxic an "attack".
I may have explained something badly. Please keep asking questions and I'll try to comment.
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I think if this is going to work, wording does need to be clear. Anything I say here can be taken back, but it will negate anything in the past that could have been unclear. Once this is all worked with, I'll revise the original post so that it is more concise, so I'll try to list as many scenarios as I can.
Terminology:
Attack: Physical or Special
Status: Status
Bonus/Third type: The additional typing that is placed onto the Pokemon at the end of the turn, after everything has played out.
If an attack fails (ex. Last Resort), is absorbed (ex. Storm Drain), or is negated by immunity (ex. Psychic hitting Dark), the bonus type will not be placed on the opponent.
If a status/hazard move is bounced (ex. Magic Bounce), the type change will still occur on the user.
Example: Great Tusk using Stealth Rock on a Magic Bounce Pokemon will still make Great Tusk a Rock type. This works the same way for moves like Will-o-Wisp.
If a status is negated (ex. Prankster), the type change will not occur on the user.
Example: Using Grafaiai's Parting Shot on Hydreigon will not change Grafaiai's third type to Dark.
If any move is protected, the user of the protection move will change their type to match the move used, and the move that was protected from will not be placed onto the target. If the protection is broken or bypassed (ex. Hyper Drill), then regular procedure applies (Attack = Change Target)
Example: Slowking uses Protect, Magnezone uses Thunderbolt. Slowking adds Normal type, since it used a Normal type Status move. It does not add Electric, regardless of speed, since Thunderbolt was protected from.
If a type is changed by a move that replaces all types in favor of a new one (ex. Soak), then even the bonus type will be changed.
If a type is added by a status move (though no such move exists in Scarlet and Violet as of making this post, ex. Forest's Curse), then the user will change their type to match the type of the move used, and the opponent will gain/replace their bonus type with the type that the move adds.
If a move is called by a status move (ex. Sleep Talk), then the move called will still register as a status move, and hence the user will change it's bonus type to match the type of the move used, regardless of the move called.
Example: Sleep Talk calls Body Press, the user of Sleep Talk will change its bonus type to Normal. It will NOT change the target's type to Fighting.
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If there is anything I missed, please let me know.
I'd also like to mention something else I noticed recently; you cannot change, add, or replace types after terastelization. I recall saying that this interferes with the gameplay of the metagame, and as such, I believe that it's reasonable to disallow Tera and keep Tera Clause in effect. Please do debate this with me.
Terminology:
Attack: Physical or Special
Status: Status
Bonus/Third type: The additional typing that is placed onto the Pokemon at the end of the turn, after everything has played out.
If an attack fails (ex. Last Resort), is absorbed (ex. Storm Drain), or is negated by immunity (ex. Psychic hitting Dark), the bonus type will not be placed on the opponent.
If a status/hazard move is bounced (ex. Magic Bounce), the type change will still occur on the user.
Example: Great Tusk using Stealth Rock on a Magic Bounce Pokemon will still make Great Tusk a Rock type. This works the same way for moves like Will-o-Wisp.
If a status is negated (ex. Prankster), the type change will not occur on the user.
Example: Using Grafaiai's Parting Shot on Hydreigon will not change Grafaiai's third type to Dark.
If any move is protected, the user of the protection move will change their type to match the move used, and the move that was protected from will not be placed onto the target. If the protection is broken or bypassed (ex. Hyper Drill), then regular procedure applies (Attack = Change Target)
Example: Slowking uses Protect, Magnezone uses Thunderbolt. Slowking adds Normal type, since it used a Normal type Status move. It does not add Electric, regardless of speed, since Thunderbolt was protected from.
If a type is changed by a move that replaces all types in favor of a new one (ex. Soak), then even the bonus type will be changed.
If a type is added by a status move (though no such move exists in Scarlet and Violet as of making this post, ex. Forest's Curse), then the user will change their type to match the type of the move used, and the opponent will gain/replace their bonus type with the type that the move adds.
If a move is called by a status move (ex. Sleep Talk), then the move called will still register as a status move, and hence the user will change it's bonus type to match the type of the move used, regardless of the move called.
Example: Sleep Talk calls Body Press, the user of Sleep Talk will change its bonus type to Normal. It will NOT change the target's type to Fighting.
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If there is anything I missed, please let me know.
I'd also like to mention something else I noticed recently; you cannot change, add, or replace types after terastelization. I recall saying that this interferes with the gameplay of the metagame, and as such, I believe that it's reasonable to disallow Tera and keep Tera Clause in effect. Please do debate this with me.
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Wait what, I get what your saying overall, but now the third type gets rid of protean? You went from protean changing your type to ground then adding ground as a third type and then all the types reverted back to the normal typing? I get the third type goes away but protean should stay, was that an oversight?
wat, how does Hydreigon negate Nasty Plot? pls change example
Soak is a status move, and doesn't add a third type like Trick-or-Treat, so it should, by your rules (not the ones I think should be in place), not change the opponents third type, only the primary types, but change yours to water.
Interested to see if that would play out that way coding wise or if its possible, Sleep Talk and such probably should be decided by how the code would play out (if its submitted and approved)
kinda confused here, how does gren become ground/water after using water shuriken?
I see the confusion! It wouldn't be water/ground, it'd still be Ground. Thanks for pointing that out
Protean changes all your types to match the type of the move you used. Hence, if its the first turn and Greninja uses Spikes, Regardless if it had a third type, it'd become Ground type. Being hit by another attack will change your third type, so it compounds with your Protean'd type. That's what I misspoke, if Greninja were to be hit by, say, a Rock type move, it'd now be a Ground/Rock type, Ground because of Protean, and Rock because of the metagame.
Sorry for the nonsense.
More nonsense on my part. Replaced Nasty Plot with Parting Shot.
I actually tested this; I was unsure so I took a Ninjask that had been affected by ToT, and sure enough, all of the types were changed to become Water; so as such, all types change when Soak is used.
Okay sorry for all the mistakes!
My mistake there, I didn't think to check if soak changed all the types, but shouldn't it still add water to the user when used? As changing the 3rd type would be part of the moves affect, not the OM's.
At least it fits with your character/name lol
I was gonna leave this alone since I think tera will be banned from most OM's eventually, but "Please do debate this with me." So I will make a quick case for tera remaining free. I'm assuming you checked if tera type will change using ToT in like Natdex AG. If that's true than tera will be strong, and disrupt the flow of the type chaos, but maybe adding a little piece of stability to the meta will do it some good, so maybe keep it free to start. Don't knock it til you try it. I don't see any harm in letting it stay free for a bit and testing if its broken, at least we would know that its broken that way.
Otherwise it looks good to me (even though I still think it should be target based, but I will respect its your OM not mine and will not argue it any further, just put these "little" reminders in EVERY SINGLE POST no matter what lol)
I would play this, and it looks like really good fun in OMM, though I do think you will have a hard time explaining how its balanced and differs from OU and OM's like Bonus Type (the OM part will be easier than the OU part).
I wanna bring up this quote from the Other Metagames' Rules & General Info Page, on the submission process:
In general that refers to stuff like Wonder Guard in abilities that give mons' abilities, Spore on fast mons or other stuff that is ridiculously broken. Tera doesn't fit into that; it's not ridiculously overpowered, overcentralizing or anything like that. Using terminology from the Tiering Policy Framework; Tera here isn't Uncompetitive, Broken or Unhealthy - at the very least, not on a first-glance sight.
This ban would be on the much muddler waters of "interfering with the gameplay of the metagame" (an argument could be made for this sentence to mean "interferes with the [intended] gameplay of the metagame" and another whole discussion could pop up about the metagame as intended by the creator vs what it ends up being but that's neither here or there). Tera wouldn't make the tier practically unplayable like letting Wonder Guard into ability-based OMs; it slightly devaluates the "intended gameplay of the metagame" but that by no means warrants a quickban.
Banning Tera has always been a tricky, complicated and controversial subject on Smogon since the start of Gen 9. I don't think it makes sense to quickban it; if there's an argument to be made about it staying then it should not get quickbanned. It could get the first suspect test of the format and even get banned there but I doubt there's enough meat to warrant a quickban.
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As an aside, the OM Tiering Guidelines should desperately be updated to say something about Tera. It's the elephant in the room of Gen 9. While I personally am against quickbanning Tera in this format I can see the concern and argument for banning Tera in type-based formats. The OM Tiering Guidelines does say
as one of its main principles but in general it seems to apply to banning individual mons rather than whatever was distributed (banning Dragonite rather than Aerilate in AAA for example) and is rather unuseful when it comes to Tera.
There should be some words on what to do in regards to Tera. Namely:
- Is OMs whose gimmick is changing the pokemon's type get any different treatment than any other OM regarding Tera?
- Should OMs by by default have Tera banned or not have Tera banned on the submission process?
- How fine is quickbanning Tera in the submittion process in scenarios where it's not horribly broken?
- How long should OMs wait from approval to suspect testing Tera? A month? Three months? Instantly?
Non-perma OMs don't have the most strict rules when it comes to banning stuff, as long as they follow the OM guidelines and general Smogon policies everything is fine, they get a ladder for two months at best, and as suspect tests require at least two weeks they have a really short period of time to decide if they want to suspect test something, so if their councils want to ban something like Tera or any other element at any given time, that's ok, otherwise we would be stopping them from developing for months may even a year.
But it is preferred if they give a chance to anything that isn't obviously broken for the powerlevel the format is going for, Terastal Clause should be implemented after proving the mechanic is problematic in the format, and even then, the time that requires is still a decision that the council of the format decides, just like any other element of the game. And despite that, if anyone thinks that Tera would go against the premise of their format, they can say so during the submission and if we agree then Terastal Clause can be implemented from the beginning.
TLDR: Non-Perma OMs can ban Tera without the need of a suspect, and even have it banned from the beginning if necessary.
But it is preferred if they give a chance to anything that isn't obviously broken for the powerlevel the format is going for, Terastal Clause should be implemented after proving the mechanic is problematic in the format, and even then, the time that requires is still a decision that the council of the format decides, just like any other element of the game. And despite that, if anyone thinks that Tera would go against the premise of their format, they can say so during the submission and if we agree then Terastal Clause can be implemented from the beginning.
TLDR: Non-Perma OMs can ban Tera without the need of a suspect, and even have it banned from the beginning if necessary.
I think the best way to solve this whole "what we even do with status moves" deal is to just exclude any status move that doesn't directly target the opponent, the premise is that being hit by a move adds the type, so there is no need to also include stuff that affects the user in a non-offensive way, also stuff that affect the field just gen confusing, Hazards, Terrains, Weather, etc. just end up making this more complicated that it needs to be, so yeah, just limit it to stuff that hits you, or we will be discussing if SR changes your type when they are set, when they deal damage or both.
It is very important that mechanics stay simple and easy to understand, so the less added rules you end with, the better.
Call it Paint Warfare or something cool, dunno.