Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Both Zamas IMO would be too much for the tier but a suspect test to drop them would be fine.

The biggest problem was zama had decent offensive stats with its high defense, nothing that checks it could kill it and anything that could kill it couldn't survive it. Even volcarona seems like a decent answer until;

0 Atk Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 412-488 (110.4 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Every mon with 130+ speed is usually glass, but zama has a fucking 138 base speed WITH bulk, and decent offenses. Behind screens, revival blessing support, tera, it is way too difficult to revenge kill if it kills everything first or alternatively just tanks the priority/faster mons anyway.

The more I do damage calcs with 0 investment on both its damage vs. checks and damage checks would do to it, its pretty much a fucking juggernaut that brutes everything whether you spec it defensively or offensively.

I know these calcs are fucking dogshit pun intended but seriously, no investment zamazenta lol...

252+ SpA Life Orb Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 231-274 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 262-309 (87 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta on a critical hit: 204-240 (62.7 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 408-480 (139.2 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The only calc that sticks out to me is azumaril who can tank a hit and hit back hard with banded play rough, but you can't switch azumaril into it.

0 Atk Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 182-216 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 318-374 (97.8 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

It reminds me why Giratina-O isn't legitmately in the tier, everyone forgots just how batshit insane pairing high base stats in bulk and damage are since even not investing in either one just averages it out with your typical wall/offensive threat regardless. I would actually advocate for Giratina before zama cause at least giratina's speed tier isn't as dumb.
 
Last edited:
turd2 said:
Then why are you engaging in it?

Walking Wake can 6-0 most offensive teams and is IMO banworthy, but the existence of hard counters (Clodsire/Gastrodon) kept it in the meta.

Annihilape was banned before its hard counter was introduced. Now that said hard counter exists, it deserves a re-test.
Click to expand...

Walking Wake can do that UNDER SUN.

Srsly some of you are arguing the inarguable. I was all for OHH SMOGON LOVES STALL AND BANS ALL THE FUN MONS but guys. Let's see the silver lining. With so much broken stuff, let's organize and start OUBL this gen. Not even kidding. Only solution that can please everyone.
 
MrE said:
The actual hot take is that they've not released anything actually good since gen 4 (and no, gen 5 is not good its uglier than the gens prior and there's too much story), everything since has been either mediocre or shit
Click to expand...
Gonna have to disagree, BW at least were so dense with content that it puts every 3d game to shame, and one of the most common complaints about modern Pokémon is it’s bad story, which gens 4-5 are the only games with a halfway decent one.
 
kosecant said:
one of the most common complaints about modern Pokémon is it’s bad story, which gens 4-5 are the only games with a halfway decent one.
Click to expand...
Gen 4's story ranged from complete dogshit (DP) to utterly mediocre (Pt and HGSS if that counts), and Gens 7 and 9 have had some of the best stories in the franchise period regardless of how you feel about the rest of the game. This is cap, bro
 
Captain Marshadow said:
Gen 4's story ranged from complete dogshit (DP) to utterly mediocre (Pt and HGSS if that counts), and Gens 7 and 9 have had some of the best stories in the franchise period regardless of how you feel about the rest of the game. This is cap, bro
Click to expand...
Half of Gen 7 is good about that, granted. I don't think I'm alone in thinking USUM's changes were for the worse.

And to stay on topic for metagame discussion:
RoyalDispenser said:
The only calc that sticks out to me is azumaril who can tank a hit and hit back hard with banded play rough, but you can't switch azumaril into it.

0 Atk Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 182-216 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 318-374 (97.8 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Click to expand...
I don't know what it is about Azumarill, but it's always poised to save the metagame from whatever crazy threat would steamroll OU and not have any checks besides. Chi-Yu? Azumarill. Walking Wake? Azumarill. Zamazenta? Azumarill. Really speaks to how its specific defensive niche is sorely underrepresented.
 
Return to Zero said:
Half of Gen 7 is good about that, granted. I don't think I'm alone in thinking USUM's changes were for the worse.
Click to expand...
Last post about this because this a metagame discussion thread, but while USUM's plot was overall not as good I think people blow the negative changes up to a ridiculous degree.
The biggest downgrade was in Lusamine's changes, and the new direction was worse (even if not nonsensical like some would lead you to believe), but people just outright ignore shit like Hau's arc having an actual conclusion thats not sequestered off in an optional postgame fight's post-battle dialogue and closure on the Mohn plot regarding the rest of the Aether family and it annoys me to no end. It was more of an uneven exchange than an outright negative turn honestly.
 
RoyalDispenser said:
Both Zamas IMO would be too much for the tier but a suspect test to drop them would be fine.

The biggest problem was zama had decent offensive stats with its high defense, nothing that checks it could kill it and anything that could kill it couldn't survive it. Even volcarona seems like a decent answer until;

0 Atk Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 412-488 (110.4 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Every mon with 130+ speed is usually glass, but zama has a fucking 138 base speed WITH bulk, and decent offenses. Behind screens, revival blessing support, tera, it is way too difficult to revenge kill if it kills everything first or alternatively just tanks the priority/faster mons anyway.

The more I do damage calcs with 0 investment on both its damage vs. checks and damage checks would do to it, its pretty much a fucking juggernaut that brutes everything whether you spec it defensively or offensively.

I know these calcs are fucking dogshit pun intended but seriously, no investment zamazenta lol...

252+ SpA Life Orb Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 231-274 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 262-309 (87 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta on a critical hit: 204-240 (62.7 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 408-480 (139.2 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The only calc that sticks out to me is azumaril who can tank a hit and hit back hard with banded play rough, but you can't switch azumaril into it.

0 Atk Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 182-216 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 318-374 (97.8 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

It reminds me why Giratina-O isn't legitmately in the tier, everyone forgots just how batshit insane pairing high base stats in bulk and damage are since even not investing in either one just averages it out with your typical wall/offensive threat regardless. I would actually advocate for Giratina before zama cause at least giratina's speed tier isn't as dumb.
Click to expand...
don’t worry, it’s fine

252 Atk Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 122-144 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- 97.5% chance to 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (122, 122, 124, 126, 128, 128, 130, 132, 132, 134, 136, 138, 138, 140, 142, 144)

Nvm Zamazenta can run choice band
 
Komodo_Drogo said:
Can people give an update on what's happening meta wise right now? I've stepped away for a bit being unhappy with the tier, but considering home was delayed again, I'd like to potentially retry it before the massive shift when it does release to reassess some of my opinions.
Click to expand...

Without knowing when you stepped away we can't be 100% sure what to update you on exactly but I'll go over some things I can think of real quick in no particular order.

  • AV Pex is a thing, and it's actually pretty good
  • Greninja is certified bad now
  • Iron Moth runs EV's for Booster to boost it's speed, rather than Spa. Not always but it's far more popular than ever
  • Shed Tail Banned
  • Baxcalibur is better than ever and is not to be taken lightly. DD and Band are still good but a SD variant has risen quite a bit
  • Dragonite is running Band now more than ever
  • Hazard stack isn't as consistent or as popular as it once was, but still very viable
  • Azumarill is better than ever has been before in this meta
  • Garchomp is struggling quite a bit, will never be a bad mon but it's best set right now is RH defensive, which is saying something
  • There are some really great stall teams out right now and some have hit #1 on ladder
  • Psyspam is basically extinct. Partly due to Bax icicle spears and Pults darts breaking past sashes, partly cuz it was always cheese.
  • Pult is really good and has like 4 viable sets
  • Tusk + Gambit still rule the meta without question
  • Hydreigon is very good- Sub, Nasty Plot is really hard for a lot of teams to handle
  • Sun hasn't changed much, but is far less consistent than ever
  • Ting-Lu runs Rest now
  • Hyper Offense is still a top tier playstyle but it's not overwhelming the ladder like it was
  • Zoroark-Hisui has fallen off quite a bit
  • Screens HO is basically extinct
  • Fairy attacks and Spore still have basically no switch ins lol
  • Volcarona is the ultimate win-condition as far as Spa mons, the bulky variant shreds teams unless prepared.
  • Tera isn't as obnoxious or "cheap" feeling as it once was- there are more dedicated users. Of course, anything can Tera for random situations, but generally Tera is being reserved for things like Volc, Garg, Hydre, Gambit- win-con mons, and not as random/surprising as it once was. The community is getting more tired of it than ever since we are so far removed from new toy syndrome. It has its ardent supporters and those that despise it as a fundamentally uncompetitive/unbalanced mechanic at it's core, but it's not ruining the game. The recent survey scores do show very low scores for fun and balance (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/) which indicates something is holding this meta back from being enjoyed as much as it could. Pro-Tera side will say those scores are due to Shed Tail being around when the survey was taken, and anti-Tera side is saying it's the Tera gimmick that is causing quite literally the lowest scores of any meta of all time lol. As a disclaimer, this is what I've gathered from high ladder play and the lower ELO you go the more janky Tera is.

A lot more/less has changed depending on how long of break you took.
The OU team samples are dated and not as viable as they could be imo.
These teams should help you get back into the game:

This is a great HO to get back into the meta: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sd-baxcalibur-ho-peaked-3-2029-elo.3720886/

If you don't like HO, this one looks solid, haven't used it but should be very good: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-peaked-number-1-twice-2086-2074-elo.3721192/

Another great balance team: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ying-dragonite-balance-peaked-1-2110.3721274/

Personally, I don't think you missed out on much, and you kinda took a break at the perfect time lol.
On that same note, however, you really wouldn't be missing out if you stayed on your break either.. building is a pain and you still just kinda auto-lose to certain matchups. No team has answers for all the Tera sets, it is what it is. That "chore to play" feeling a lot of us felt in late gen 8 is a general vibe. This is subjective conjecture, but no one I know personally who plays is like, "Wow this meta is a lot of fun! SV is amazing!", it's more like, "When is Home dropping so this whack meta can get shaken up a bit.." or "When is the Tera suspect.."
With that said, it's still OU, it's still mons, and if you like OU + mons then welcome back, it's definitely not unplayable and there is still a lot fun to be had when you get a good game or barely win after playing well in a matchup where you were technically at a disadvantage.

Hope some of this helped.
 
All good for a couple jiggles and jabs at GF, but lets try to not turn this thread into ingame discussion

Taka said:
to add to this, what do yall think of sub agi wake in the current meta? i've had a lot of success testing it out, and I feel like its such a potent threat, but it is matchup fishy.
Click to expand...

I think that Sub and Agility might be too much to be honest. The extra damage Flamethrower does to Gholdengo, Amoonguss and Corviknight that are everywhere is also worthwhile keeping imo. I have been using this set in ladder

:sv/Walking Wake:
Walking Wake @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 16 SpD / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Hydro Steam
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower​

The Speed EVs let you hit 304 which outspeeds most Volcarona, Modest Sandy Shock, and the few Rash Garchomp still around. The 40 HP EVs let you always tank a Dragon Darts from 76 Atk Dragapult, and the 16 SpDef were leftovers but you can mix them tbh. I found it to be a pretty alright cleaner against HO and some BOs. You can set up on a predicted switch or by tanking a neutral hit. For example Great Tusk and Gholdengo locked into Make It Rain, but also Cinderace, non Draco Hydreigon if they dont have a NP boost nor a Sub, Meowscarada locked into Knock Off/Sucker Punch, opposing Walking Wake locked into Hydro Steam/Flamethrower.
 
Just A Shroom God said:
Can we get some honest discussion on Zamazenta and Zamazenta-H's status? I personally think they should stay in Ubers, but I'm curious about the general opinion of the community. Here is the suspect thread for the gen 8 discussion on unbanning them.
A few questions to consider:
Do the arguments against and for unbanning in gen 8 hold up?
Does the nerf to Dauntless Shield help a lot overall?
How does Zama benefit from their new kit in gen 9?

Edit: to summarize the gen 8 suspect thread for those who don't want to read 11 pages of 5-paragraph essays, first it was "wow this pokemon looks overwhelming with all its options but actually its checked offensively by stuff like Volc and (daddy?) Buzzwole and defensively by the 'Pex and co. and it's easily chippable and can't boost", then it goes to "it actually has coverage for everything that supposedly checks it like Wild Charge, Crunch, Play Rough, Howl, Ice Fang, and Fire Fang", then it went to "are we sure this isn't warping the meta like spectrier/dracovish where it's not broken but every team has to run lots and lots of chip damage" and then it was "wow this thing is actually hard to deal with when you give it the benefit of team support", and then finally setting on the verdict of "this thing can outlast its checks on offense in the chip war and is also decent as a wallbreaker given team support and its coverage options, keep it banned."

Edit 2: My personal opinion it will still be broken IF the metagame conditions are similar, but even if they are, I feel SV OU is already a tier of broken-checks-broken so it'd be allowed anyway.
Click to expand...

I personally think its best to tackle each Zamazenta form individually since they are different beasts at the end of the day. For this I will focus on Zamazenta Hero since I feel that is the easier of the two to unban.

Broadly speaking for both Zamazenta's, they did not get much from the transition. They only got three new moves that stood out to me: Trailblaze, Body Press, and Terra Blast. I think Terra Blast is not going to matter too much at the end of the day. it has viable moves to beat Ghosts and Fairies. Even if Zamazenta is going to abuse Terra, why waste a spot on Terra Blast when you could just use Crunch. Trailblaze you could do a double dance set of that and howl, but that sounds so wonky and has terrible 4MSS. You only have one open moveslot to run a coverage move then, so you are better off just running Howl sets, which I think for Hero is a bad idea.

Zamazenta Hero is pretty much going to have two main sets it seems: Choice and ID BP. Iron Defense Body Press I think is spooky for offense but I do not think its going to be too scary. A non invested non terra dark crunch is not going to be that hard for ghost types to switch into. You also have really only one true chance to set up with it. We do not have much Wish support in the tier and the nerf to Dauntless Shield means you are only getting +2 instead of +3 after your second attempt to set up. I think at worst, the ID BP set just ends up being a dumb offensive mon to prey on other offensive teams. Defensively, it is much easier to deal with especially since fat teams can handle it pretty well.

The set I would be the more concerning one is the Choice set. This set is pretty simple, Zama would just be a very fast, pretty strong choice bander. This set was a lot scarier last gen when Zama had base 130 attack. Now at base 120, the mon is noticeably weaker. Granted, base 120 attack close combats are going to hit hard, especially if you Terra Zamazenta. But it makes switching into Zamazenta's banded close combats easier to stomach. Zamazenta generally is mainly going to act as this fat beatstick for/against HO more than a wallbreaker. Sure, you can Terra Fighting Close Combat and might break through something, but most defensive cores already have ways to handle Great Tusk's even stronger close combats. I doubt just spamming CC will invalidate fat teams. The bigger issue is vs offense. He would be a relatively fat mon that can in theory 1v1 some mons or act as a blanket check in case of emergency if your Dauntless Shield is up.

Speaking of Dauntless Shield, that nerf makes the ability much worse into other offensive teams. It makes it much easier to revenge kill Zamazenta or 1v1 it the second time it comes out. Without having that free +1 defense, it will be easier to chunk. Zama H is already more vulnerable to hazards than Zama C. It resists Stealth Rock less and it is actually able to be toxic spiked. It also is vulnerable to Sandstorm, but Tyranitar is a myth until we get Excadril back or Houndstone gets Poltergeist and Last Respects is banned. The main point is that Dauntless Shield losing its perma +1 makes Zama a lot easier for offense to in theory 1v1.

Personally, I think it would be fine. I think having a blanket check to scary mons like Kingambit would be fine for the tier. I do not see either of its sets being particularly scary to deal with. I think having a mon that has a good mu into offense and acts as a solid form of speed control is nice for the tier. I think it would likely be a solid A/A+ mon viability wise. Great in the tier, pretty solid, but not overwhelmingly broken if dropped in.

------------------------------------

Zamazenta Crowned is also probably fine, but I think is a bit spookier. I think the key differences from Zama H are what make it more dangerous and also potentially manageable. That Steel typing does heavy lifting alongside its beefier defenses to let Zamazenta be an even better beatstick vs offense. To compensate, you effectively lose your held item slot. While that has a few upsides, such as making Zamazenta C a great Knock Off switch in, it also makes it more pigeon holed. The two have basically identical movesets except you get Dual STAB with Behemoth Bash. Steel type Earthquake is nice though.

I think the two sets would be a Howl/AAA set and ID BP. ID BP is arguably stronger on this thing than its Crownless counterpart. The better defenses and defensive typing mean setting up Iron Defense is even easier. On the flipside, the lack of a held item like Leftovers might sting just a little, but I doubt it. I still have most of the issues with ID BP here generally. While harder to revenge than Zama H due to that steel typing and better SpDef, it is still vulnerable to being revenge killed and also requires you to run investment and terra dark crunch to even hope to beat ghost types. Without investment, your crunch is laughably weak.

0 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 192-226 (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tera Dark Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 288-338 (90.8 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

I know, taking calcs out of nowhere is dumb. The Zama could just run a better EV spread for ID BP than 252 HP/252 Def. Its mainly to show that you really need some attack investment and terra dark to reasonably handle the ghosts in the tier, making handling Zamazenta Crowned traditionally easier. If it Terra Darks, it is much easier to revenge kill. If it is less bulky, its easier to revenge kill. Also, vs Fat teams this set isnt that scary.

Howl or AAA sets I think will just have a similar role to what they would do on Zama H: being a fat beatstick and a blanket check. Zama C is going to fair worse into things like Landorus T intimidate without Howl and it will not be breaking through most defensive cores, but it still can be a pain for offensive teams to handle. I guess for a set like this, the question is moreso are you ok with teams having a fat beatstick blanket check to other offensive teams.

Personally, while scarier than its Hero form I think this has legs to go to OU. I think out of the slate that the council has, this is one of the more reasonable ones to drop. Personally, outside of Banning Last Respects and saving Basculegion and Houndstone, the only ones on that list I think are good candidates for OU (without a Terra reevaluation) are the Zamas, Regieleki, and Chien Pao.
 
IMG_3777.jpeg

How long have I been gone?
 
I've had some kind of success with Houndstone in home tours so I'd like to know what do y'all think of it

Houndstone @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
Tera Type: Grass/Water/Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Body Press
- Roar
- Shadow Sneak/Protect

I've used this in conjunction with Chesnaught but any Spiker would work. Houndstone is a very effective check to Great Tusk, as
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Houndstone: 99-117 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 95.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
and to show its bulk off: +2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Houndstone: 279-328 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. I also found that there aren't many WoW switchins that like Spikes, except Gholdengo. It also conveniently walls Sneasler, Headlong Rush Tusk and Urshifu. I also tend to find that Sneasler + Spikes is deadly.
 
MX42 said:
I personally think its best to tackle each Zamazenta form individually since they are different beasts at the end of the day. For this I will focus on Zamazenta Hero since I feel that is the easier of the two to unban.

Broadly speaking for both Zamazenta's, they did not get much from the transition. They only got three new moves that stood out to me: Trailblaze, Body Press, and Terra Blast. I think Terra Blast is not going to matter too much at the end of the day. it has viable moves to beat Ghosts and Fairies. Even if Zamazenta is going to abuse Terra, why waste a spot on Terra Blast when you could just use Crunch. Trailblaze you could do a double dance set of that and howl, but that sounds so wonky and has terrible 4MSS. You only have one open moveslot to run a coverage move then, so you are better off just running Howl sets, which I think for Hero is a bad idea.

Zamazenta Hero is pretty much going to have two main sets it seems: Choice and ID BP. Iron Defense Body Press I think is spooky for offense but I do not think its going to be too scary. A non invested non terra dark crunch is not going to be that hard for ghost types to switch into. You also have really only one true chance to set up with it. We do not have much Wish support in the tier and the nerf to Dauntless Shield means you are only getting +2 instead of +3 after your second attempt to set up. I think at worst, the ID BP set just ends up being a dumb offensive mon to prey on other offensive teams. Defensively, it is much easier to deal with especially since fat teams can handle it pretty well.

The set I would be the more concerning one is the Choice set. This set is pretty simple, Zama would just be a very fast, pretty strong choice bander. This set was a lot scarier last gen when Zama had base 130 attack. Now at base 120, the mon is noticeably weaker. Granted, base 120 attack close combats are going to hit hard, especially if you Terra Zamazenta. But it makes switching into Zamazenta's banded close combats easier to stomach. Zamazenta generally is mainly going to act as this fat beatstick for/against HO more than a wallbreaker. Sure, you can Terra Fighting Close Combat and might break through something, but most defensive cores already have ways to handle Great Tusk's even stronger close combats. I doubt just spamming CC will invalidate fat teams. The bigger issue is vs offense. He would be a relatively fat mon that can in theory 1v1 some mons or act as a blanket check in case of emergency if your Dauntless Shield is up.

Speaking of Dauntless Shield, that nerf makes the ability much worse into other offensive teams. It makes it much easier to revenge kill Zamazenta or 1v1 it the second time it comes out. Without having that free +1 defense, it will be easier to chunk. Zama H is already more vulnerable to hazards than Zama C. It resists Stealth Rock less and it is actually able to be toxic spiked. It also is vulnerable to Sandstorm, but Tyranitar is a myth until we get Excadril back or Houndstone gets Poltergeist and Last Respects is banned. The main point is that Dauntless Shield losing its perma +1 makes Zama a lot easier for offense to in theory 1v1.

Personally, I think it would be fine. I think having a blanket check to scary mons like Kingambit would be fine for the tier. I do not see either of its sets being particularly scary to deal with. I think having a mon that has a good mu into offense and acts as a solid form of speed control is nice for the tier. I think it would likely be a solid A/A+ mon viability wise. Great in the tier, pretty solid, but not overwhelmingly broken if dropped in.

------------------------------------

Zamazenta Crowned is also probably fine, but I think is a bit spookier. I think the key differences from Zama H are what make it more dangerous and also potentially manageable. That Steel typing does heavy lifting alongside its beefier defenses to let Zamazenta be an even better beatstick vs offense. To compensate, you effectively lose your held item slot. While that has a few upsides, such as making Zamazenta C a great Knock Off switch in, it also makes it more pigeon holed. The two have basically identical movesets except you get Dual STAB with Behemoth Bash. Steel type Earthquake is nice though.

I think the two sets would be a Howl/AAA set and ID BP. ID BP is arguably stronger on this thing than its Crownless counterpart. The better defenses and defensive typing mean setting up Iron Defense is even easier. On the flipside, the lack of a held item like Leftovers might sting just a little, but I doubt it. I still have most of the issues with ID BP here generally. While harder to revenge than Zama H due to that steel typing and better SpDef, it is still vulnerable to being revenge killed and also requires you to run investment and terra dark crunch to even hope to beat ghost types. Without investment, your crunch is laughably weak.

0 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 192-226 (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tera Dark Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 288-338 (90.8 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

I know, taking calcs out of nowhere is dumb. The Zama could just run a better EV spread for ID BP than 252 HP/252 Def. Its mainly to show that you really need some attack investment and terra dark to reasonably handle the ghosts in the tier, making handling Zamazenta Crowned traditionally easier. If it Terra Darks, it is much easier to revenge kill. If it is less bulky, its easier to revenge kill. Also, vs Fat teams this set isnt that scary.

Howl or AAA sets I think will just have a similar role to what they would do on Zama H: being a fat beatstick and a blanket check. Zama C is going to fair worse into things like Landorus T intimidate without Howl and it will not be breaking through most defensive cores, but it still can be a pain for offensive teams to handle. I guess for a set like this, the question is moreso are you ok with teams having a fat beatstick blanket check to other offensive teams.

Personally, while scarier than its Hero form I think this has legs to go to OU. I think out of the slate that the council has, this is one of the more reasonable ones to drop. Personally, outside of Banning Last Respects and saving Basculegion and Houndstone, the only ones on that list I think are good candidates for OU (without a Terra reevaluation) are the Zamas, Regieleki, and Chien Pao.
Click to expand...
very well thought-out argument, but it's spelled Tera because the full name is Terastal.

I think Zama-H will be very dangerous for offensive teams, simply because it's just too bulky. The IDBP set can almost solo them. It's true that it doesn't hit ghosts very hard, but ghosts can't hit it very hard either
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta: 174-205 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
and it gets to hold leftovers instead of HDB because of its resistance to rocks. The ghosts that are good on offense are all outsped and 2HKO'd by it sans Pult, which as we mentioned, does about 70% and then dies. Meanwhile, it outspeeds literally everything else on HO sans scarf users and OHKOs many of them with Body Press, because it doesn't even need coverage when it can just do this
+3 0 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 153-180 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 0 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 132-156 (45.6 - 53.9%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
and then iron moth does this back
132 SpA Iron Moth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta: 126-150 (32.4 - 38.6%) -- 4.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and iron valiant chooses between doing a lot (not OHKOing though) or outspeeding it to get 2 hits in
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta: 288-342 (74.2 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zamazenta: 192-228 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Because its Body Press is enough coverage already, I actually think the last slot will go to something not seen often in Singles: Protect. It gives it precious, precious Leftovers recovery and allows it to scout for choice-locked moves which would have sufficient power to deny the sweep.

That's not even talking about the choice-locked sets, which are potentially even scarier to deal with. Dragapult is the only thing that outspeeds it and easily dies to Crunch w/ Band (which will be the most popular set by far). It can also afford to go Adamant, only missing out on Meowscarada, which does only 49% max with fully-invested Flower Trick that ignores the DS boost. Offense struggles to hit it hard enough and outspeed it at the same time. Sure, it loses the DS boost after the first time, but a lot of the Proto mons spammed on offense are the things used to force it out and they lose their speed advantage after they switch out, which is a lot more crucial to them than a +1 Defense boost.

Obviously, it doesn't do as well into defensive teams, but if you can remove their Unaware users IDBP can act as a wincon and Banded sets still do quite a lot of damage. It beats Clod and Dirge with its Tera Dark Crunch, threatens Kingambit + Tusk (with only 10% chip, Tusk is 2HKO'd by Banded CC), and is just generally effective into neutral things as well (Corv, Pdef Rotom because Spdef Rotom is just OHKOd lol, and SLOWKING are 2HKO'd by CC). You can also run coverage for your checks, like Wild Charge for Pex, Stone Edge for Volc, heck even Psychic Fangs for Clod if you don't want to Tera to beat it. The only thing holding it back is the Unaware users being prominent and being somewhat prediction-reliant with ghosts still up.

Tl;dr- Terra is actually Tera, either Zama set steamrolls offense and isn't too terrible into defense either.
Edit: I picked a really great time to post, now it's gonna get crushed beneath the 10000 "pog home vote" posts
 
Last edited:
Exotic64 said:
hearten loses toxic but if it tera grasses that's great since that's tera gone lol and now takes a lot from u turn
+ heatrans only recovery is lefties + protect so it can be chipped down with something like bpress
the trapping will be super annoying however so im not surprised if I see a lot of tera ghosts on stall teams post home
Click to expand...
Tera flying is the superior tera type from my experience in NDex - any viable variant of Volcarona can't really touch it. Tera grass is only used when your team is really weak against ground types with rock coverage/rain imo.
 
Why do most people think that lando t will be worse this gen since it lost all its utility moves and tusk is better than it?
I mean it still has u turn and intimidate and can check a lot of physical attackers like d nite,Meowsacarda,physical valiant,Ceruledge and could still all the sets it used to run in previous gens like sub bulk up/Sd or choice items and now it even gets an actual powerful flying stab in tera blast flying
Also we haven't played in an intimidate metagame so far apart from the tauros forms which were excellent against chien pao and I think they are still underrated pokemon in ou so who knows lando could be used as much as tusk in post home meta
 
Even without Defog, even without Toxic or Knock, Lando still has a lot of defensive utility. Just switching into a threat and either walling it or threatening is a very good niche. Possible defensive sets (won't talk about Tera, since many will be good options) :
Regular Rocks + U-Turn, lol. Tusk switches into this, but not so well if the 4th move is Psychic or Grass Knot.
AV. This one is for offensive teams only, especially weather ones. It tanks a hit and U-Turns out for a faster threat like Floatzel, Scovillain, Iron Moth, Cetitan or Beartic, each of which have troubles getting into the field but are very destructive once they do.
Restalk + U-Turn. Same concept, but adapted for more balanced teams, less weather reliant, but that still have some crazy offensive threat like Valiant (in SS OU instead of Valiant it would have been a Weavile, but even if it recovers Triple Axel, the one move it needs to be viable has always been Knock Off)
Rest + Bulk Up or Calm Mind. For very defensive teams only. Used to be a lot better when it had Knock Off as 4th move.

Won't talk about offensive sets, but there are plenty of them too. It's hard to see Lando as the single best Mon, but I do see it as a serious contender for the place once the initial ban wave happens. Especially since I still see defensive Tusk sets BAD due to all that weaknesses (offensive sets is what currently makes this Mon the best). It's gonna be interesting to see the usage and sets of both Lando and Tusk influencing each other.
 
turd2 said:
Slowking / water absorb Clodsire / Gastrodon are hardly on every team. But their mere existence prevents Walking Wake from being broken. I predict that this is what will happen to Annihilape now that Zoro-H exists. You don't NEED to see Zoro-H on every team for Annihilape to be less effective.
Click to expand...
You'd be surprised by how common clod and slowking are.
 
Just A Shroom God said:
lando-t is slow (even more so this generation when we're putting scarf on base 129s), isn't quite strong enough to be able to rip through teams without a boost from Swords Dance and LO, and ice is enough of a common offensive type that it really needs to Tera to sweep. Meanwhile, Great Tusk has phenomenal defensive value even when not invested, has a useful way of boosting its speed through rapid spin while also being utility, has 2 strong STABs, and is a built-in roadblock for sun teams, which I believe would rule the meta if this thing didn't exist. Basically, Great Tusk does lando's job better than it while also having defensive utility. I think lando will probably still have a niche as an all-out attacker with Scarf, but its days of defensive utility are over
Click to expand...

Valid points but most Tusk can't touch Lando, and slow U-turn can not be dismissed at all.
RH might end up being its best item aside from lefties.
Lando can come in on a King SD + Fallen 5 and KO it after RH chip, cuz no fallen 5 King after a SD is going to be at max HP lol.

+1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 271-319 (70.9 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lando's EV's could be tweaked forsure but this is just an illustration of it handling one of the most threatening phys attackers in the meta.
It's base stats are and always will be fantastic.
145 base attack is no joke.

It will also be interesting to see if Sandsear Storm gets any action
20% burn is wild, especially if we don't get Scald back.

0 SpA Landorus-Therian Sandsear Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 186-220 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It could also scare out booster Val

252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 123-145 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 162-192 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It could also handle Iron Moth and U-Turn out on Hydre- as well as forcing a Tera on Volc or it dies to Stone Edge.
If Volc Teras into on of its common Grass/Ground sets, u can just u-turn and revenge with Bax or just get your check in.
There are many other examples of this thanks to slow pivot.
Again, slow u-turn on a mon that isn't Corv is going to be nice.

Back to def variant, RH can come in on a Nite dance and handle it:

252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 114-135 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Normal Dragonite: 154-183 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

The above calc does not factor in Multiscale due to RH chip.
This calc is also p funny
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Normal Dragonite: 206-244 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Losing toxic, knock, defog is kinda a blessing in disguise, as it frees up Lando quite a bit.
You could legit run EQ, U-turn, Stone, Hammer Arm/Filler-whatever.

I'm not factoring in Tera but something to think about.
I think it might find a good friend in Scream Tail on balance with Wish support.
Didn't spend too much time on this, and I realize Tusk generally will do what old Lando wishes it could do but better, but Lando will 100% find a place on many teams.

I didn't go into any offensive spreads cuz I was mainly touching on your last sentence about it's days as a defensive utility are over and I just want to, in a friendly way, disagree with that statement.

It's offensive sets will also be viable, that we're both sure on.
I'm curious to see if NP + Sandsear ends up being a thing.
As a last side note, Lando also has Block, Taunt, + every viable set up move in the game- CM-NP-SD BU

*Jeff Goldbloom voice "Lando, uh, finds a way"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top