GARCHOMP Tier Discussion Thread

[Forsety]

Quite frankly all my damage calculations I always use during team building use Garchomp as a base.

The thing is so freakin bulky, fast that I'd be a complete idiot to neglect it. Garchomp is literally the very definition of overcentralizing the metagame and sometimes I can't tell whether people are just either ignoring the threat or don't want to admit they were wrong 600 base is not Uber.

Its not even comparable with Gyarados, Garchomp has two weaknesses 4x Ice and 2x Dragon('weakness' is a relative term given its also a strength), vs Gyarados's 2 solid weaknesses of 4x Electric and 2x Rock. Now if that was the case I wouldn't care, it'd be no less threatening than Salamence.

However they thought it was funny to give it Sand Veil on top making even REVENGE KILLING unreliable as a counter, this is just stupid. True counters are always debatable and questionnable especially against behemoths with this kind of power. However when even revenge kills offer no sanctuary anymore than something has to be wrong.

 

[rkatzam]

It's not so easy to revenge kill, because most of the time Outrage doesn't 1HKO pokemon who take neutral damage from it. Hence, if you send them on an Outrage, and it 2HKO's you, Garchomp might end his Outrage, not being locked on it anymore and free to switch. It's a lot harder to revenge kill than it seems.

 

[Lee]

Quite frankly all my damage calculations I always use during team building use Garchomp as a base.

The thing is so freakin bulky, fast that I'd be a complete idiot to neglect it. Garchomp is literally the very definition of overcentralizing the metagame and sometimes I can't tell whether people are just either ignoring the threat or don't want to admit they were wrong 600 base is not Uber.

Great post by Forsety.

I have come to accept him as a OU Pokemon over time, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder why. He has already proven his superiority by skyrocketing to the top of the usage charts, knocking off the almighty Blissey. If that isn't reason enough to consider his tier status, then what is?

I'm of the impression that the game would be a better, more balanced place without him.

 

[umbarsc]

However they thought it was funny to give it Sand Veil on top making even REVENGE KILLING unreliable as a counter, this is just stupid. True counters are always debatable and questionnable especially against behemoths with this kind of power. However when even revenge kills offer no sanctuary anymore than something has to be wrong.

First of all, revenge-killers get a solid 80% chance to OHKO, which is more then three quarters of the time. Secondly, there's moves called Sunny Day and Rain Dance, or a Pokemon called Abomasnow, if you really hate Sand Veil that much.

If you're going to argue Sand Veil, you might as well ban Gliscor, because it has excellent defenses, 95 Base Speed, and has the ability to pass Swords Dances and Substitutes. I mean, you obviously haven't been swept by a Gliscor because it used Substitute until your Ice Beam missed, then used Swords Dance and Baton Passed that to AgiliGross.

It's not so easy to revenge kill, because most of the time Outrage doesn't 1HKO pokemon who take neutral damage from it. Hence, if you send them on an Outrage, and it 2HKO's you, Garchomp might end his Outrage, not being locked on it anymore and free to switch. It's a lot harder to revenge kill than it seems.

Any decent Garchomp counter will have the ability of doing at least 70% damage to it with one Ice attack, so if the counter is 2HKO'd, Garchomp is dead if it's taken previous damage.

 

[mirza]

Only thing I have to say really is that I think a lot of people wouldn't want to ban Chomp because it's one of those top evo region representing base 600's. Know what I mean?

Let's say you're playing your DP close to a year ago. Instead of Heatran/Cresselia, you only meet Chomp one time. Wonder how many of you would consider it OU then?

All I'm saying is that we should base these tiers on power, not on whatthefuck they're supposed to be in the games/anime.

 

[Captain Falcon]

I'm all for banning it, if you look at the most used pokémon on shoddy battle you will see that all of them can be safely countered by at least one pokémon (apart from salamence, due to the diversity of his sets). Garchomp can't be countered by one Pokémon, which puts him a stage above pokémon like gengar and gyarados, who are very powerful, but can be countered.

 

[Trust]

I could be wrong, but if Garchomp were in Uber, the metagame could be more balanced, as Lee said.

I will explain it. Some pokes are outclased by Garchomp, like Flygon and maybe Dragonite (it has a different way to use Outrage, but Scarfchomp is more used...). It resists Rock, which means that SR doesn't mind him. However, Salamence, Dragonite and Gyarados don't like it. It 2HKO's most of the OU with Outrage, and this Steels and walls which can stand it hates Chainchomp, or a Draco Meteor/Fire Blast. It is immune to electric attacks, and you will have problems to paralyse it. But the most aggravating problem is his "lovely" Sand Veil. With Tyranitar and Hippowdon everywhere, and some annoying Garchomps with Brightpowder, it's quite difficult to take down if you miss a hit, and with a Substitute there, you only have to wait to be sweeped.

Sand Veil is the biggest difference between Garchomp and the rest OU. Blissey is easily counterable by a good physical attacker, Gyarados hates electric attacks and SR, Salamence and Dragonite also hate SR and they can't avoid Ice attacks as Garchomp does, Gengar will have problems to take a good attack...

The rest of OU have their weak points, and they are counterable, but Garchomp has this ability, which make countering it a lucky game.

 

[umbarsc]

Only thing I have to say really is that I think a lot of people wouldn't want to ban Chomp because it's one of those top evo region representing base 600's. Know what I mean?

Let's say you're playing your DP close to a year ago. Instead of Heatran/Cresselia, you only meet Chomp one time. Wonder how many of you would consider it OU then?

All I'm saying is that we should base these tiers on power, not on whatthefuck they're supposed to be in the games/anime.

I'd say that you're saying that in a positive connotation. Let's try it in a negative one.

If Garchomp had been a "legendary" or whatever, people probably would have banned it without a doubt. But they didn't, and found that it was acceptable within the OU environment. People, the tiers don't give a damn whether you can breed it or not.

You're acting like people are acting biased towards it for not being legendary, and I'm saying people would act biased towards it if it were. Understand?

I think my argument is a good representation of what people who say "[insert uber] for OU!" feel.

 

[sanjay120]

But he doesn't fit in OU. We tested him, we've put up with him, and the only reason he's still here is because he's not legendary.

I'd love to see Garchomp banned, or at least Sand Veil.

 

[Magmortified]

First of all, revenge-killers get a solid 80% chance to OHKO, which is more then three quarters of the time.

"Garchomp uses Substitute!"

Secondly, there's moves called Sunny Day and Rain Dance, or a Pokemon called Abomasnow, if you really hate Sand Veil that much.

How many Sunny Days and Rain Dances do you actually see nowadays? You kind of have to base your team around them to work with it. When you're packing things like that just so you can deal with Garchomp, that's when you have to wonder if it should stay OU.

If you're going to argue Sand Veil, you might as well ban Gliscor, because it has excellent defenses, 95 Base Speed, and has the ability to pass Swords Dances and Substitutes. I mean, you obviously haven't been swept by a Gliscor because it used Substitute until your Ice Beam missed, then used Swords Dance and Baton Passed that to AgiliGross.

It has the defenses to take an Ice Beam from a Pokemon with a Special Attack less than 266?

102 > 95

You have to pass SD to an Agiligross? Why not just use an already fast Garchomp (that doesn't need a turn to use Agility) that keeps the Sand Veil and ruins a fair bit more?

Any decent Garchomp counter will have the ability of doing at least 70% damage to it with one Ice attack, so if the counter is 2HKO'd, Garchomp is dead if it's taken previous damage.

And if it hasn't taken previous damage/you miss?

 

[stormtrooper]

garchomp should stay ou, its not much better than salamence,tyranitar,metagross. swords dance sub chomp is walled by skarmory easily. choice scarf/choice band chomp is not hard to stop with a little prediction. sand veil is annoying but its not that good. Ice beams still have a 80% chance to hit and should be a ohko.hippo with ice fang can counter it.skarm/brongzong can counter it. cressilia makes a decent counter.

 

[Bogmire]

garchomp should stay ou, its not much better than salamence,tyranitar,metagross. swords dance sub chomp is walled by skarmory easily. choice scarf/choice band chomp is not hard to stop with a little prediction. sand veil is annoying but its not that good. Ice beams still have a 80% chance to hit and should be a ohko.hippo with ice fang can counter it.skarm/brongzong can counter it. cressilia makes a decent counter.

Hippowdon does not counter SD chomp. Ice fang is a 2HKO and you better get lucky with it's reduced 67% accuracy (if holding brightpowder)

 

[Slice n Dice]

The problem is Blaziken, a bunch of dickweeds still use the sub bp stuff. It is bound to defeat Cress :(

 

[Kira]

Opinion

Garchomp is a fearsome beast indeed. The ability to outspeed base 100 Speed Pokémon along with excellent type coverage with its powerful STAB moves make it better than your average Pokémon. Even the bulkiest of Pokémon fear the Swords Dance version as a single critical hit or miss due to Sand Veil's Evasion boost in Sandstorm can spell disaster for any team. Choice Band and Choice Scarf Garchomp are capable of doing severe damage to the unprepared team, whereas Chain Chomp is going to catch you off-guard if you aren't familiar with it, which may very well cost you the game. Every team needs a reliable way to stop any form of Garchomp.


According to the Analysis one miss can ruin a whole team. That obviously shows how broken Garchomp is. If your counter misses one of those 4 times it can use Sub then you lose... plain and simple.

Also let's take a look at those stats
HP 108- 357 420 -
Atk 130:266 296 359 394
Def 95:203 226 289 317
SpA 80:176 196 259 284
SpD 85:185 206 269 295
Spe 102:216 240 303 333

Hmm... so not only can he sweep but if you wanted to then it could also act as a wall on either side of the spectrum. It's base stats are way too good. I mean at least Inernape/Azelf and other fast sweepers deal with shit defenses, but this guy can actually take a hit... assuming your hit ever lands.


Now lets look at the last sentence... the last time I checked if everyone was forced to carry a counter for a certain pokemon then that pokemon is broken.



Garchomp is too over-centralizing and should be banned. It's a shame Nintendo gave him Sand Veil.

 

[Blu]

Hippowdon says hi to CB outrage ;[

 

[Kira]

Hippowdon says hi to CB outrage ;[

Hippowdon says hi to ChainChomp Draco Meter...

Also we shouldnt be forced to carry Hippowdon just to counter him. It would force us all to run Sandstrom teams because all your other pokemon would just get ruined by your own Sandstrom.

Again it over-centralizes the metagame.

 

[Spaniard]

Lol huge movepool:

Garchomp just uses eq and outrage. Fire blast, stone edge and crunch are random moves to catch counters on the switch.

No counters?

Cresselia, Bronzong, gyarados, skarmory, mamoswine, swampert, forretrees, togekiss, hippowdon, gliscor...

That it packs attacks that can hurt your counters doesn't mean a thing:

-So garchomp is about to eq? Cress in. Outrage? Skarm in.
-But he's not choiced. Well then he can't abuse speed/attack. Just switch skarm in to resist dragon claw and then switch again to swampert to take a fire blast. He will much likely be forced to switch out now.
-But he can outpredict me and choose the correct attack on the switch or abuse sub/swords dance on the switch. Well, then he outpredicted you because he's cleverer, and that's only you to blame here. Think he's gonna sub? Attack him.

Brightpowder? Rellying on luck is noobish, stick to choice scarf. That is sheer prediction/skill.

There will always be OU pokes because they are effective, do you want to ban everything that is effective?

There are a lot of pokes that are just as dangerous as garchomp:

-Salamence
-Tyranitar
-Zapdos
-Heatran
-Metagross
-Slaking
-Gengar
-Gyarados

 

[Blu]

Hippowdon says hi to ChainChomp Draco Meter...

Also we shouldnt be forced to carry Hippowdon just to counter him. It would force us all to run Sandstrom teams because all your other pokemon would just get ruined by your own Sandstrom.

Again it over-centralizes the metagame.

Its easy to heal off the damage with Slack off after a Draco Meteor

 

[Bogmire]

Lol huge movepool:

Garchomp just uses eq and outrage. Fire blast, stone edge and crunch are random moves to catch counters on the switch.

No counters?

Cresselia, Bronzong, gyarados, skarmory, mamoswine, swampert, forretrees, togekiss, hippowdon, gliscor...

That it packs attacks that can hurt your counters doesn't mean a thing:

-So garchomp is about to eq? Cress in. Outrage? Skarm in.
-But he's not choiced. Well then he can't abuse speed/attack. Just switch skarm in to resist dragon claw and then switch again to swampert to take a fire blast. He will much likely be forced to switch out now.
-But he can outpredict me and choose the correct attack on the switch or abuse sub/swords dance on the switch. Well, then he outpredicted you because he's cleverer, and that's only you to blame here. Think he's gonna sub? Attack him.

Brightpowder? Rellying on luck is noobish, stick to choice scarf. That is sheer prediction/skill.

There will always be OU pokes because they are effective, do you want to ban everything that is effective?

There are a lot of pokes that are just as dangerous as garchomp:

-Salamence
-Tyranitar
-Zapdos
-Heatran
-Metagross
-Slaking
-Gengar
-Gyarados

how the hell do togekiss and forretress counter garchomp. please explain. swampert is a shaky counter because SD dragon claw will 2HKO it. CB outrage rapes cress etc

 

[Kira]

Its easy to heal off the damage with Slack off after a Draco Meteor

I like how you still ignored the second part of my argument.

 

[Jibaku]

Garchomp is ridiculous. It is basically uncounterable in many ways. Although I did not see it as a threat in the early WiFi days, the recent abuse of Chomp proved otherwise. One wrong move and Chomp takes that advantage more than any other pokemon in the game (not counting ubers). So let's see what I mean

Garchomp counters:
Cresselia. Cresselia is the best Garchomp counter in the game. Unfortuntely, it runs into a fair number of problems itself. First of all, she doesn't have great recovery-Garchomp often comes in a sandstorm, eliminating Moonlight. Rest makes Cress quite unreliable at countering Garchomp, as CBChomp 3HKOes her with ease. Also, Modest Cresselias die to Yache SD Chomp and gets 2HKOed by CB Outrage and Crunch, while Bold versions fail to OHKO and thus risking Cress to stay longer in the game thanks to Sand Veil. Speaking of Sand Veil, Subchomp is very annoying to counter, unless you have Skarmory. Also, Cress is weak to Pursuit

Hippowdon. Hippo is a great counter to both the CB and Scarf versions, but it utterly DIES to SD and Chain versions. Ice Fang does not kill it in one huit, whereas Chomp can 2HKO Hippo with SDed Quake. Not to mention how much Draco Meteor hurts Hippowdon.

Vaporeon/Suicune/Milotic/Starmie/Slowbro- These guys do not enjoy CB Chomp or Yache SD Chomp. With Yache, their Ice Beams fail to OHKO, essentially allowing Garchomp to kill them. Against Milotic, it is even possible for Chomp to set up an extra Swords Dance. CB Outrage or Earthquake also owns all three

Swampert- Dies to Yache SD Chomp very badly, unless it has Counter. Even a boosted Avalanche won't OHKO with the berry, and Pert doesn't like the notion of CB Earthquake either

There are more "counters" to Garchomp, but please note the quotation marks. There's absolutely no true counter to Garchomp, and Garchomp brutally and sadistically punishes a mistake, unlike Gengar and TTar. It -forces- people to carry more than one counter to it

 

[Blu]

Max Atk Adamant Garchomp
CB Outrage on Bold Max Def/HP Cressy:
Damage: 207-243
46.62%-54.73%
-Without Sandstorm, Cressy can easily healoff the damage and wait 'till he gets confused or finish Garchomp with Ice beam(If chomp is damaged)

Max Atk Adamant Garchomp
CB Outrage on Impish/Relaxed Max Def/HP Hippowdon:
Damage: 209-246
49.76%-58.57%
-Slack off's recovery isn't affected by the weather, so it recovers 50% HP no matter what. 50%+6% from leftovers walls Outrage, just stall untill he's confused then Ice Fang when he hits himself.

Max Atk Jolly Garchomp
CB Outrage on Bold Max Def/HP Cressy:
Damage: 189-222
42.57%-50.00%
-Not a 2hko ;[

 

[ultimifier]

Lol huge movepool:

Garchomp just uses eq and outrage. Fire blast, stone edge and crunch are random moves to catch counters on the switch.

No counters?

Cresselia, Bronzong, gyarados, skarmory, mamoswine, swampert, forretrees, togekiss, hippowdon, gliscor...

um.. all of those are not counters. all of the bolded ones are eaither killed by chain chomp set, or CB outrage. nice try man.

That it packs attacks that can hurt your counters doesn't mean a thing:

-So garchomp is about to eq? Cress in. Outrage? Skarm in. how do you know what he's going to do, are you psychic. maybe he predicts switch to skarm and uses fire blast. maybe he predicts switch to cress and brings in CBtar (which is what i do)
-But he's not choiced. Well then he can't abuse speed/attack. Just switch skarm in to resist dragon claw and then switch again to swampert to take a fire blast. He will much likely be forced to switch out now. once again, not all garchomp users are retarded and get outpredicted that badly.
-But he can outpredict me and choose the correct attack on the switch or abuse sub/swords dance on the switch. Well, then he outpredicted you because he's cleverer, and that's only you to blame here. Think he's gonna sub? Attack him. and miss. gg

Brightpowder? Rellying on luck is noobish, stick to choice scarf. That is sheer prediction/skill. rellying on look is noobish, but it wins games, which shows why garchomp should be banned: n00bs win because of sand veil.

There will always be OU pokes because they are effective, do you want to ban everything that is effective?

There are a lot of pokes that are just as dangerous as garchomp:

-Salamence nope
-Tyranitar maybe
-Zapdos nope
-Heatran nope
-Metagross nope
-Slaking LOL
-Gengar nope
-Gyarados nope

that was fun. and is there are so many pokemon that are just as dangerous as garchomp, why is he used so much more than all of them... maybe its bceause theres no other pokemon as dangerous as garchomp*

*i still think tyranitar is better, but no one else seems to think so

 

[Twilight_Vaizard]

I think this is ridiculous. Putting garchomp in ubers is a sign of weakness.

Saying that sand veil is a reason to put it into the uber tier is ridiculous. That means that for chomp to be overpowered you must run him in a sandstorm team. I guess that means that Kabutops can become OU if he's in a rain dance team and Regirock can become an uber if he's in a sandstorm team (max special defense x1.5 is over 400 not to mention already masive defense and decent HP).

 

[Pneuma]

T-tar can be revenge killed and forced out.
Chomp can only be revenge killed some of the time.

I wish you all would stop with the straw men. We're not talking about Kabutops or a fictional metagame. We're talking about Chomp right now being virtually immune to counters and shrugs off revenge killing. Not to mention how we ban DT and somehow allow Sand Veil.