DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Your first sentence is indeed correct. If anything is used enough in OU to make it OU it becomes OU. It is strange that Tentacruel isn't too powerful for UU but as long as it's used enough to be considered OU it will be banned from the UU metagame.

People play UU to escape the OU metagame, so allowing an OU pokemon in UU defeats the purpose of even having an UU metagame.

Maybe an exception can be made for Tentacruel.

It may be that the original purpose of UU was to create a metagame utterly distinct from OU so that lesser-used pokemon could see play. Eventually each tier reaches a point where it revolves around an elite tier of key pokemon that dominate it, and at this point, bar the few pokemon that hover on the tier boundaries, the players of each tier become familiar with the uses of the pokemon commonly seen and available to them.

Then, innovators in OU notice that Tentacruel has many uses in the OU metagame, and others pick up on it so that it becomes widespread. When this happens, by the strict definition of the metagames Tentacruel is no longer legal in UU.

However, the only reason why usage was so important before was because we didn't know how powerful the pokemon were relative to each other. After the metagames are defined, when suddenly a pokemon well within UU sees significant usage in a higher tier, we still know that it is balanced enough for the tier and we may even remember that it was once a pokemon that the tier was associated with.

Perhaps Tentacruel only sees so much use because of all the Obi stall team doppelgangers, and if we only looked at the people that really used Tentacruel for its talents it would remain UU.
However, that is irrelevent to my argument that the usage argument should really only apply when a metagame is being defined or potential metagame breakers are being tested. After the major testing is done, we already know everything in a tier is balanced so why suddenly ban them based on a change in usage?

To allow Tentacruel in UU would hardly change the metagame into an image of OU. Furthermore, one could argue that Tentacruel will always fundamentally be UU and not even a short sojourn in the spotlight can change that.
 
Yes, I agree darkflagrance, but it does need to be noted that one of the goals of UU is to provide an experience unique to OU. If somebody were to play UU, they're usually doing it to get away from the same ol' boring Pokemon. Allowing a Pokemon as common as Tentacruel into a tier that focuses on rarely seen Pokemon seems like we'd be defeating the purpose of UU a little. After all, UU stands for UnderUsed; Tentacruel is not UnderUsed based on statistics. And in all honesty, I haven't faced an Obi stall team in a long time, but I've still saw many Tentacruel.

If it gets passed any kind of speed, the opposing team is basically completely 2HKOed.

That's true enough, but even with an Agility his absolute maximum is 414 speed, which falls short of quite a few Scarfers. Also, unless the speed passer is packing a Macho Brace, Marowak will be switching into a hit which he won't enjoy. Remember - he can't use a Focus Sash, he has no Leftovers recovery, no Lum Berries...nothing. Every attack he takes is crucial. Even if he takes a light hit coming in, he'll be exposed to Ice Shard, Aqua Jet, Fake Out/Mach Punch etc. Also remember that he can be Intimidated. It's small compensation, but I'm sure you appreciate the value of Intimidate, Mr. BulkyRaptor.

RE: Marowak
In all fairness anything short of a 2 level speed boost is worthless given how incredibly slow it is and it falls to special attacks even easier than Cloyster.

Yeah...Blastoise can outrun Jolly 252 speed Marowak (207 speed) with as little as 60ish EVs and do a shitload of damage with Surf. I assume he could OHKO. Meganium beats him with 44 EVs and hammers him with Energy Ball (he's a bit light for Grass Knot IIRC).

What you're effectively looking at is a Pokemon with NU stats, a rubbish ability but the option to carry half a Light Ball.

I'm torn on the subject though. I've been using Marowak in OU for a while now, and it's certainly been fun and somewhat successful. My ladder position went from about 70 to 30 in the few days I was messing around with him, with Marowak personally bringing home a lot of victories. However the sheer amount of support I've been using is insane. The general idea is to spread paralysis, which I'm doing using Bologo's status Mismagius (cheers) and a Double-status Jumpluff. Certain threats can ignore paralysis and destroy Marowak (Starmie, Celebi, Roserade etc.) so I've been running Tauros for Pursuit. Marowak really can't get in safely so I'm having to use Vaporeon to pass him a Substitute. 5 team slots devoted to letting Marowak sweep!

I think a successful UU team could be made around him for sure, but I don't know how effective it would be in the long run.
 
This post is not directed at anyone in particular, but I think I should make it clear again.

Please stop discussing how the tiers should be defined. They have been clearly defined and chaos is adamant on leaving them as they are. Please no discussion on "Tentacruel should be UU even though it is OU". These and other similar points have been discussed already in the Contributions and Corrections forum (the link I posted earlier for KingFresh) and a final stand has been taken. That stand will not budge.

For the purpose of this discussion, I will make it clear what BL and UU are.

UU are the Pokemon that are not used much in the standard (OU) metagame.

BL are also Pokemon that are not used much in the standard metagame, but that they would be too powerful for the UU metagame (akin to ubers for OU).

That means that ANY Pokemon that is used frequently in the standard metagame is OU, and not BL or UU. The exact meaning of the phrase 'used frequently' has also been explained in detail in the Contributions and Corrections forum.

Only discuss what should go from BL to UU and from UU to BL in this thread according to the above tier definitions. Thanks.
 
I think Clefable should be BL, now having the ability Magic Guard, it is immune to Life Orb damage, SS/Hail damage, poisen/burn/curse..etc damage, so basically a Toxic Orb set or Life Orb set are powerful, plus with the old goods suchs as Softboiled, support moves like T-Wave/wish, but now with Magic Guard it's more than just the Blissey of UU, I think it should be atleast discussed/tested.
 
Lee more or less sums up everything wrong with it, NU level stats in most areas cept defense, lack of item slot, horrendously bad speed and the ridiculous ammount of support it needs.

The more and more I look at Marowak the more I realy think its not cut out to be BL.

I think Clefable should be BL, now having the ability Magic Guard, it is immune to Life Orb damage, SS/Hail damage, poisen/burn/curse..etc damage, so basically a Toxic Orb set or Life Orb set are powerful, plus with the old goods suchs as Softboiled, support moves like T-Wave/wish, but now with Magic Guard it's more than just the Blissey of UU, I think it should be atleast discussed/tested.
Go back a few pages. Clefable has been done to death.
 
Personally I'm with you Metal Force ... if for no other reason than I'm sick and tired of its fat pink ass stalling on me ... if i wanted that I'd play OU.
Sadly short of it becoming OU through usage I don't see it being kicked ...

So we are considering Marowak for testing in UU then?
 
Unlike the Bliss, at least Clefable dies to moderate physical attacks.

I'm for Marowak in UU, testing at least. Ground is a terrible defensive type thanks to Water and Ice being on precisely the type of pokemon than stop him cold.
 
i was about to ask if marowaks 324 hp is really much worse then sandslashes 354 hp, although then i remembered he doesnt get any leftovers.

on the other hand, im looking at marowak as being like a sandslash with a swords dance already set up and an extra moveslot, which really isnt making be think negatively of it at all.

i might make a test team with him.

edit: also, after seeing the recently banned topic, where does phione stand in all of this? i used him in a UU team just the other day and not a single person saw fit to disagree with his appearance. i'd have said easy UU (maybe lower when we start discussing that), but obi himself says it should be uber. phione doesnt evolve into manaphy despite being born from it similarly to volbeat not evolving into illumise imo. it shouldnt justify his tier being the product of a manaphy breeding.
 
Good thing you brought Phione up.

Theres no sense in any logic at all in banning it from UU. The normal consensus of banning pre-evolutions that are already in OU makes sense. This is on grounds of creating a different environment but Phione doesn't even evolve into Manaphy!

Furthermore Phione is a special case as the primary set for Manaphy is Tail Glow but Phione doesn't even learn it. Power isn't even an issue, it has 80 for all stats, same as Glalie which last I checked was hardly considered a threat.

In fact as far as UU is concerned Phione is only even capable of two things, scout and status absorb. It can't sweep nor can it tank as its not bulky enough unlike its parent. Heck if thats all you're using it for you may as well make way for Dewgong the newest Uber.

I'm definitely 100% up for throwing Phione out with Marowak for the next downgrade along with Drapion and Steelix.
 
Sorry for duble post, just an update.

Current discussion
Marowak, Phione,

Banished to BL. (bye bye)
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom

UU's in testing
-Walrein, Glaceon, Pinsir, Cacturne, Lapras, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmonlee
Clefable

BL's moved down to UU.
- Claydol and Cloyster

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(now presented in terms of levels of opposition)
-Steelix (Very Low)
-Drapion (Very Low)
-Leafeon (Low)
-Jynx (Low/Average)
-Regigigas (Average)
-Torterra (High)
-Entei (Very High)
-Flygon (Very High)

BL's considered for testing/movedown but lacking support.
-Empoleon, Houndoom, Milktank

Widely Acceptable NFE's.
-Scyther, Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL)
Snover, Hippopatas
 
i was about to ask if marowaks 324 hp is really much worse then sandslashes 354 hp, although then i remembered he doesnt get any leftovers.

Yep, but Sandslash also has 65 base speed compared to Marowak's 45. If you max Marowak's HP, you'll be left with 126 speed which isn't worth thinking about. That's slower than Hippowdon for the record...I don't mean to sound so negative; I love Marowak. But I don't think he's been given a fair look until now, because people just see "568 ATTACK?!"

In a way he will overcentralise the game, because people will start running a few speed EV's on their Blastoises and Meganiums in order to outrun him, but people have been running 222/244 speed to beat Tyranitar for years now. He'll merely add 208 as a common UU Magic Speed number.

Or of course, it could go the other route and people will just get frustrated at the amount of support he requires and not use him at all.

I'm all for testing, but I can't get on Shoddy for a few days. :(
 
I dunno, Phione is a real toss-up. Some people say it's Uber, some say it's OU, some say it's even BL or UU.

In this case, if we are discussing for the sake of UU and BL, I would think at least he should be BL and for one reason: HydroRest. May though he is forced to run Rain Dance, he can still play like Dewgong without the ass amount of weaknesses. But he does lack Tail Glow, Calm Mind, and even Energy Ball as well as many other moves, yet he still has Charm and Acid Armor... I guess if it's the case, he could be tested.

On a side note (I don't need 5000 replies about this), but if Porygon-2 is an NFE (though BL), does that make Porygon also an NFE or just outclassed?
 
why is pinser considerd UU when it has about the same stats as hera
He lacks Guts, Megahorn, and STAB Close Combat. He has to use X-Scissor (which still isn't a bad move) for a STAB Bug move and though he can use Close Combat, it would be for just 120 BP instead of 180 BP. Pinsir's main advantage over Heracross is probably his two abilities though... at least, that's my opinion.
 
He lacks Guts, Megahorn, and STAB Close Combat. He has to use X-Scissor (which still isn't a bad move) for a STAB Bug move and though he can use Close Combat, it would be for just 120 BP instead of 180 BP. Pinsir's main advantage over Heracross is probably his two abilities though... at least, that's my opinion.
yea, so shouldnt it atleast be BL?
 
why is pinser considerd UU when it has about the same stats as hera

How about "because people don't use Pinsir, but they use Heracross".

yea, so shouldnt it atleast be BL?

If you look back a few posts you will see that he's listed as "UU's in testing" meaning that whilst he is currently listed as UU, he might be moved depending on what testing determines.
 
I thought Phione was already considered UU. I think it's listed incorrectly in the Smogon tiers as 'NFE'. That's wrong, as it is actually fully evolved.
 
How about "because people don't use Pinsir, but they use Heracross".



If you look back a few posts you will see that he's listed as "UU's in testing" meaning that whilst he is currently listed as UU, he might be moved depending on what testing determines.
ok , but its way to powerfull for UU IMO
 
Then back your claim up with evidence (battle logs demonstrating its superiority, theorymon etc.) and contribute something tangible that we can use to help with making the decision.
 
Another of Pinsir's main strengths is Guillotine, with which it can take down stalling Pokémon (even ones with Sturdy if it has Mold Breaker). With OHKO moves banned, that's one fewer thing it can do well, making it less powerful.

Also, its stats aren't distributed as well as Heracross's (Pinsir has less HP and more SpAtk, for instance).
 
I dunno, Phione is a real toss-up. Some people say it's Uber, some say it's OU, some say it's even BL or UU.

In this case, if we are discussing for the sake of UU and BL, I would think at least he should be BL and for one reason: HydroRest. May though he is forced to run Rain Dance, he can still play like Dewgong without the ass amount of weaknesses. But he does lack Tail Glow, Calm Mind, and even Energy Ball as well as many other moves, yet he still has Charm and Acid Armor... I guess if it's the case, he could be tested.

Could you please elaborate futher on how the HydroRest set would be broken/to much for UU? No offense but I really dislike it when people throw out something that potential makes a pokemon uber and don't elaborate futher on it. (Well since you did agree with testing...you can disregard some of the things I just said, but I'd still like you to tell me more about what you think of the Hydro Rest set).

The Hydro Rest, I could see being great for status absorbing/checking but that set alone isn't going to stop strong attackers from breaking through it (They merely have to keep attacking it until Rain Dance runs out, I doubt that Phione can take a total of 3 Choice Banded hits a row, if it does indeed try to attack the foe. At the very worst, I can see Phione causing stall wars with other Phione which any stall based pokemon can to to each other.

Phione also could run a specs set of, Surf/Ice beam/Grass Knot/Whatever. but it's power is really underwhelming compared to many of the other hard hitters in UU right now.

If it had all of Manaphy's moves I would be leaning more towards pushing it into BL, but alas it's merely a watered down pokemon of something it doesn't even evolve into.

I think it would do fine in testing and not overcentralize/is to powerful for the UU metagame.
 
I dunno, Phione is a real toss-up. Some people say it's Uber, some say it's OU, some say it's even BL or UU.

In this case, if we are discussing for the sake of UU and BL, I would think at least he should be BL and for one reason: HydroRest. May though he is forced to run Rain Dance, he can still play like Dewgong without the ass amount of weaknesses. But he does lack Tail Glow, Calm Mind, and even Energy Ball as well as many other moves, yet he still has Charm and Acid Armor... I guess if it's the case, he could be tested.

I really don't see any problems with Phione in UU (and there's no way in hell it's uber or OU). It's essentially got the same stats as Dewgong (gong has slightly more HP and sp def but less sp atk/speed), so the only real advantages it's got in terms of Hydrorest are Grass Knot and lack of Ice typing. Those are both good things, but neither of them is enough to push Phione to BL, and it's not like anyone's clamoring for Dewgong to be removed from UU right now.

Phione isn't all that tough either. If we're looking at in terms of defense tiers it's a fair amount weaker than other UU bulky waters like Blastoise, Quagsire, and Gastrodon. I'm guessing it could be easily 2HKO'd by strong neutral hits or 1HKO'd by SE ones.
 
I was just stating some things about Phione, etc. I wasn't attempting to make a huge argument like what happened with Manaphy.

The thing is is even though a lot of Bulky Waters can be taken down with moves like Toxic and Will-O-Wisp, HydroRest makes that problem not even that big of a hassle. I understand that Dewgong can as well, but the main advantage of no Fighting weakness still helps. I'm pretty sure he can be brought down, since his stats equal Glalies anyways. His movepool is really small though, so I think even in UU it can't prove an extreme threat as a sweeper.

I was still half-asleep when I posted that, but I think the fact that he does have HydroRest does give him a slight advantage over some of the UU Bulky Waters. (Also, someone was ranting that Phione was Uber because Manaphy was, etc, so I wasn't attempting to hit the whole tier factor either, but if it was determined as UU and BL, which I guess it is seeing as X-Act and a couple others corrected that).

I saw a big on Marowak discussion and I'm agreeing: 40 Speed is really damp for Marowak and lack of any other items than Thick Club does hurt him. Though I guess the one thing is is that he could play as a better Swords Dance Sandslash IMO... but then again, my opinion.
 
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