Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I just realized giratina returns and wonder why there is no vote on it? With mons like ting lu or dondozo out there its bulk isnt exceptional anymore and its dark/ghost/fairy and ice type weaknesses are hindering it aswell. it has no realiable recover either. Being a defogger that beats gholdengo would be very interesting for the meta imo.
Atleast Giratina-A should be voted on imo, Giratina-origin and griseous orb could stay banned
 
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carbonlifeform said:
Anybody else have favorite sub-optimal sets that kept the meta fun for you? Or horror stories of things that felt clever only to crash and burn?
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heat sets that I have used and liked
Focus Energy Roaring Moon
BU Power Trip Corviknight
52 Attack Gunk Shot pex
SubPunch Breloom
Belly Drum Chesnaught
Specs Dnite
Rain abuser Dnite
Trick Room Kingambit
Double Status Rotom Wash
Adamant Sand Force Tera ground Choice Band Hippowdown
Gravity support Dragon Rush Garchomp (with LO and CB)
Choice Scarf Garchomp
Gravity + Zap Cannon Sandy Shocks
tera blast/shadow ball Sylveon
Choice Band Iron Valiant
Choice Band Cyclizar
Expert Belt Valiant
Rain Abuser Volcarona
Acrobatics Dragapult
Head Smash Tusk
Steel Beam + Electric terrain suicide setter Iron Treads
Agility + Boots Iron Moth
Choice Scarf Mismagius
Psycological Torture Kingambit (don't ask about this one, I will not answer)

heat sets that I haven't tried but want to
Sub + Taunt ting Lu
Whirwind Iron Moth
ID BP Iron hands
Cute Charm + Skill Swap Sylveon
Full Sun Abuser Skeledirge
Choice Scarf Skeledirge
Stallbreaking Hydreigon (not balance breaker)
Trick Room Garganacl

Terrible stuff that should not be used
Scarf mixed Valiant
Booster Mixed Valiant
Chain Chomp
NP Rotom
Choice Specs Cyclizar
Payback Forretress
Choice Band Donzo
Stallbreaker Jugulis
Quaquaval in general


Bro the list keeps growing by the minute, please help
 
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qways said:
I just realized giratina returns and wonder why there is no vote on it? With mons like ting lu or dondozo out there its bulk isnt exceptional anymore and its dark/ghost/fairy and ice type weaknesses are hindering it aswell. it has no realiable recover either. Being a defogger that beats gholdengo would be very interesting for the meta imo.
Atleast Giratina-A should be voted on imo, Giratina-origin and griseous orb could stay banned
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Unlike Zamazenta, Giratina is still threatening for how bulky it is. Yes, Close Combat off 120 Atk is still stronger than what Giratina-A can do naturally, but Giratina-A has a vastly improved movepool. It’s defensive profile is also vastly better too, obviously. Like 150/120/120 bulk is so large that Kingambit’s Max SO Sucker Punch is not guaranteed to be a 2HKO.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 248-294 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You then just Will-o-wisp it at least twice due to Lum Berry. You also naturally outspeed Kingambit with 0 investment.
Now imagine what Pokemon without effective 227 Atk and super effective STAB are gonna do to Giratina.
 
Why is Spectrier unban even up for discussion? Unlike Flutter Mane, Spectrier knows Nasty Plot and has an actual ability outside sun. It's extremely easy for Spectrier to go out of control. 100/60/80 bulk isn't that bad either for a mon with 145/130 offense. Spectrier can go from +0 to +3 in the blink of an eye. And now it has Draining Kiss, so it will be threatening even if tera is banned (the dark types don't have pursuit anymore)
 
Joseph Gomes said:
Why is Spectrier unban even up for discussion? Unlike Flutter Mane, Spectrier knows Nasty Plot and has an actual ability outside sun. It's extremely easy for Spectrier to go out of control. 100/60/80 bulk isn't that bad either for a mon with 145/130 offense. Spectrier can go from +0 to +3 in the blink of an eye. And now it has Draining Kiss, so it will be threatening even if tera is banned (the dark types don't have pursuit anymore)
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Gates have been open since Mag was announced to be OU. The reason given would probably be that Clodsire exists to wall it out potentially, which is a bad idea.
 
Are there any merits to DDance Terra Electric Terra Blast Bax? It seems like it catches the normal counters of dozo, corv, and haze physdef pex.
(I definitely not just missing Kyurem Black in OU)
 
Joseph Gomes said:
Why is Spectrier unban even up for discussion? Unlike Flutter Mane, Spectrier knows Nasty Plot and has an actual ability outside sun. It's extremely easy for Spectrier to go out of control. 100/60/80 bulk isn't that bad either for a mon with 145/130 offense. Spectrier can go from +0 to +3 in the blink of an eye. And now it has Draining Kiss, so it will be threatening even if tera is banned (the dark types don't have pursuit anymore)
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Spectrier started OU last generation and was in the tier for a few months before being suspected out; it is entirely reasonable to vote on it, just as we are voting on Flutter Mane.
 
Joseph Gomes said:
Why is Spectrier unban even up for discussion? Unlike Flutter Mane, Spectrier knows Nasty Plot and has an actual ability outside sun. It's extremely easy for Spectrier to go out of control. 100/60/80 bulk isn't that bad either for a mon with 145/130 offense. Spectrier can go from +0 to +3 in the blink of an eye. And now it has Draining Kiss, so it will be threatening even if tera is banned (the dark types don't have pursuit anymore)
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From what I can tell they're doing the same thing they do every gen - trying to give pretty much everything that isn't a box legend (besides Zamazenta which is pre gen 8 kyub levels of mediocre relatively speaking) a chance in OU at the beginning of the new metagame. Of course, with few exceptions this has largely been fruitless, genesect being unbanned for like 3 days kind of being a meme and all, so they're trying to preemptively QB the obviously broken stuff while allowing the borderline broken this time
 
Artic111 said:
Are there any merits to DDance Terra Electric Terra Blast Bax? It seems like it catches the normal counters of dozo, corv, and haze physdef pex.
(I definitely not just missing Kyurem Black in OU)
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No, EQ tera ground shits on pex, and +2 tera dragon glaive rush shits on pex and corv
 
Cuddly said:
Gates have been open since Mag was announced to be OU. The reason given would probably be that Clodsire exists to wall it out potentially, which is a bad idea.
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Given that Spectrier learns Psychic and tera is still legal

252 SpA Tera Psychic Spectrier Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 230-272 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Don't even need Life Orb for this (i know psychic is a bad tera typing, just using it for reference if Clod becomes omnipresent to handle the horse)
 
ausma said:
Spectrier started OU last generation and was in the tier for a few months before being suspected out; it is entirely reasonable to vote on it, just as we are voting on Flutter Mane.
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I don't mind the votes as long as it doesn't get unbanned. It's much scarier this gen than it was in gen 8. No need for the sub/disable sets to play around the fat blobs anymore
 
Cuddly said:
Unlike Zamazenta, Giratina is still threatening for how bulky it is. Yes, Close Combat off 120 Atk is still stronger than what Giratina-A can do naturally, but Giratina-A has a vastly improved movepool. It’s defensive profile is also vastly better too, obviously. Like 150/120/120 bulk is so large that Kingambit’s Max SO Sucker Punch is not guaranteed to be a 2HKO.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 248-294 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You then just Will-o-wisp it at least twice due to Lum Berry. You also naturally outspeed Kingambit with 0 investment.
Now imagine what Pokemon without effective 227 Atk and super effective STAB are gonna do to Giratina.
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Aside from stabs aurasphere is the only interesting coverage move for it which fails to 2hko hp invested gambit
252 SpA Giratina Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Copied
calm mind is its only boosting move coming off 100 spa and its doesnt learn taunt to shut down other boosters or opponent status.

It has lots of bulk but like 2/3 of the ou tier aleady carry some kind of supereffective coverage for it.
Since it doesnt have reliable recovery its easy to wear down by all the things that hit it se.
 
qways said:
Aside from stabs aurasphere is the only interesting coverage move for it which fails to 2hko hp invested gambit
252 SpA Giratina Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Copied
calm mind is its only boosting move coming off 100 spa and its doesnt learn taunt to shut down other boosters or opponent status.

It has lots of bulk but like 2/3 of the ou tier aleady carry some kind of supereffective coverage for it.
Since it doesnt have reliable recovery its easy to wear down by all the things that hit it se.
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Thing is that it doesn’t need to 2HKO everything, it can just outlive everything, and worst case scenario heavily cripple it. Kingambit was just an example of a Pokemon with incredible offenses that only barely 2HKOs Giratina and only if it avoids a burn and with Super Effective coverage. It also doesn’t need coverage as much as Zamazenta since Ghost is a really good offensive type and easily spammable and it also has plenty of utility. Zamazenta needs coverage because it’s really only thing it can do, and Fighting has so many things that resist it.
 
I would note that Giratina has the same offensive stats that Dragapult makes work for its Specs sets, while having the bulk to dodge basically any revenge kill and can afford to work with even as slow a set-up move as Calm Mind because what the hell is going to kill this thing before it gets to +1 or +2? Frankly it's fat enough to do as Dondozo does and just Hard-Rest if you really need the heal, given Ghost works so well for a Mono-Attacking type on Rest Talk
 
252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 136-162 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Elite coverage right there. Get burned by wisp then rested on. If your not super effective stab off big attacking stats you will not touch giratina (booster valiant does barely half with moonblast to phydef versions) it will rest forever and burn your whole team then crush with hex. Oh and if someone really has a bond with satan they will just run it on pressure stall with corv and friends
 
Cuddly said:
Thing is that it doesn’t need to 2HKO everything, it can just outlive everything, and worst case scenario heavily cripple it.
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Ting-lu has similar bulk and attack and its far from broken/outliving everything in this meta. Look through the viability list. The majority of mons run some kind of supereffective coverage for it already without it even being in the tier and its Its also hit by all hazards
It cant do all the things all at once. If it wants to outlive other things, i wont be able to threaten mons and vica versa. slowking f.e. can live any hit and use chilly recetion to pivot to a breaker despite the shadowball weakness

Cuddly said:
Kingambit was just an example of a Pokemon with incredible offenses that only barely 2HKOs Giratina and only if it avoids a burn and with Super Effective coverage. It also doesn’t need coverage as much as Zamazenta since Ghost is a really good offensive type and easily spammable and it also has plenty of utility. Zamazenta needs coverage because it’s really only thing it can do, and Fighting has so many things that resist it.
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I compared giratina to to mons like dondozo and ting-lu, why do you always bring up zamazenta?
Dondozo sometmes sweeps teams with its curse set, is it broken because of it?

pika pal said:
I would note that Giratina has the same offensive stats that Dragapult makes work for its Specs sets, while having the bulk to dodge basically any revenge kill and can afford to work with even as slow a set-up move as Calm Mind because what the hell is going to kill this thing before it gets to +1 or +2? Frankly it's fat enough to do as Dondozo does and just Hard-Rest if you really need the heal, given Ghost works so well for a Mono-Attacking type on Rest Talk
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Well if dragapults set has answers so has giratinas.
 
qways said:
I compared giratina to to mons like dondozo and ting-lu, why do you always bring up zamazenta?
Dondozo sometmes sweeps teams with its curse set, is it broken because of it?
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giratina in OU comparable to Dondozo and ting-lu? giratina's just bulky wisp hex pult that has cm. It way more similar to Zamazenta than Dondozo and ting-lu because it is a super bulky mon that can also hit as hard as pult. Most of Pults Answers can't really touch Giratina.
 
qways said:
Ting-lu has similar bulk and attack and its far from broken/outliving everything in this meta. Look through the viability list. The majority of mons run some kind of supereffective coverage for it already without it even being in the tier and its Its also hit by all hazards
It cant do all the things all at once. If it wants to outlive other things, i wont be able to threaten mons and vica versa. slowking f.e. can live any hit and use chilly recetion to pivot to a breaker despite the shadowball weakness


I compared giratina to to mons like dondozo and ting-lu, why do you always bring up zamazenta?
Dondozo sometmes sweeps teams with its curse set, is it broken because of it?


Well if dragapults set has answers so has giratinas.
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Dragapult's main counter is scarfers and sucker punch, only because of its frail bulk. Neither can do much against giratina

Ting-Lu does not get any boosting moves nor wisp nor twave, it sets up hazards and cry against birds

Dozo dies to lots of special attacks and meowscarada

Giratina is way too hard to kill and still hits hard, as well as having enough utility to beat basically everything in the meta
 
The only real offensive counter to Giratina is Baxcalibur, due to its wisp immunity and 120BP STAB super-effective move and choice band off of 145 base attack being able to KO Giratina, but it cant even switch in to a draco meteor and Glaive Rush barely misses a KO even with that insane attack
252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 404-476 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Giratina Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 318-374 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Defensive counters barely exist, due to Tera Steel to avoid toxic. Giratina could also switch out, giving a free switch to the likes of :Gholdengo: or :Kingambit: to beat the defensive mon.

Even Chi-Yu can't OHKO specially defensive Giratina with a specs set
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 374-444 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

After Giratina tanks a hit, it strikes back with either thunder wave, will-o-wisp, or just a Draco Meteor off of a respectable 100 special attack and your mon dies

tldr giratina does not belong in OU it is way too busted even for current power level

yes i double posted but this is just dumb
 
Staggered log in window, but it looks for real this time! Guess this vote reveal trickle needs to speed up a bit, maybe in batches. Would also be good for there to be a day or 2 to sit with the outcomes rather than an 11th hour OU Bundle jumpscare (for the record this is a joke that pengy's banned forever)
 
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