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I mean this in all seriousness. How many Pokémon have to get banned before we address the Donphan in the room, Tera?
Volcarona is a popular well, liked mon that has always had viable options for counterplay. Only reason this is even being discussed is Tera.
Regeleki is barely viable without Tera.
I know Magearna has a lot of tools these days, but the thing was once a team builder’s dream in past gens. The defensive typing opens up more team slots for other mons. It made metagame more creative.
You are correct that we cannot tera dark clodsire/skeledirge to answer espathra if tera goes, but we won't need to. Assuming it keeps running the same set as last time (shown below), here's how a dazzling gleam without stab matches up against the dark types of this tier (which you generally want on every team anyway to resist ghost, so minimal teambuilding strain)
Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost
So imagine espathra finds a free turn, uses Calm Mind as your opponent switches into their dark type:
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 100-118 (24.7 - 29.2%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 110-130 (21.4 - 25.2%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar: 144-170 (44 - 51.9%)
(If you push it into berserk range, a +1 fiery wrath OHKO's you back)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 232-274 (79.1 - 93.5%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Overqwil: 123-145 (39.5 - 46.6%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 63-75 (15.2 - 18.1%)
(don't sleep on alolan muk it's heat)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Jugulis: 208-246 (63.2 - 74.7%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 230-272 (80.7 - 95.4%)
Omitting hydreigon and roaring moon because they're 4x weak and die, omitting other fringe darks for the sake of brevity.
You can see how much worse it does vs relevant darks without the fire power+defensive utility tera brings. It goes from broken into manageable matchup fish, much like demon mew from gen8. Once again, I am adamant that tera is the main reason why espathra was banned.
I like to steelman this argument by doing making Espa Modest 252 and magically letting it get 3 CM vs a max offense gambit and then doing calcs.
+3 252+ SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 230-271 (67.4 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 250-296 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This thing can't touch Dark, simple as that.
It can also be checked in soft ways in a no Tera meta such as Band Infiltrator Pult, Dirge, Encore Nite, Dice Bax, etc.
Any arguments about how tera wasn't 100% of the reason this thing got banned are invalid and should be put to rest.
If you want to say it was cheese and good riddance, your issue is more w Stored Power than Espa, really.
Demon Mew was the same thing last gen, and Demon Mew 2.0 is here w Draining Kiss.
We also have G-Cuno running around w SP.
Espa could have stayed and the meta would have adapted.
I don't personally miss it, but again, a clear cut case of tera pushing a mon out.
I disagree with Espathra, pretty awful take, but for the most part you are right. I still think Annihilape would be resuspect worthy in a non Tera metagame but I'm 50/50 on whether or not it would be banned. Urshifu Water imo is really strong but Tera is def what pushes it over the edge thanks to how easy it is to spam Tera Water Surging Strikes. Without Tera I see Ursh being a strong A+ rank offensive threat (rain to me is very much reliant on Tera to be as good as it is, so in a non Tera world it wouldn't be as strong as an option) that wouldn't be worth quickban discussion, but a possible suspect test instead. Outside of that you are right, most of the Pokémon banned so far are not Tera reliant. The thing is though, we have already past the stage of banning Pokémon that are broken simply due to being broken, and we are now in a unstable mess that kinda runs into mons that are ok / fine, but reach into broken with Tera territory. And as I indicated, we are already leaning into that space.
Speaking of everyone's main gripe with Espa: MU fishing.
Tera is far, far worse than Espa when it comes to MU fish.
The thing w tera is that some mons are not broken in a vacuum, but are rather broken in certain match ups. I don't mean you have a great MU, I mean you have a broken MU cuz your opp doesn't happen to have a certain mon and that certain mons tera as well.
Spd Curse Water/Fairy Garg is broken unless you have a hard counter.
Volc, Nite, Pult, Gambit, Tusk.. even shit like Dozo, BU Ceru are just simply unstoppable win conditions in certain MU.
Especially if a good player knows this. They have 5 other mons to damage/crippled/KO the few checks some of these sets have.
At the higher levels of gameplay, there are MU's that you just can't prep for or your team loses to other MU.
I would rather build my team to not auto lose to more common threats like E-Nite if that means I insta lose to something less common like Ceru, but you can only mitigate these terrible tera MU, not actually be able to build around them all.
When we say tera pushes mons over the edge, we don't always means pushes them into Uber, sometimes it means it pushes them to be literally broken in certain MU.
Since these mons aren't broken all the time, they won't get banned; but if you show me a team, I can show you a tera mon w a set that practically 6-0's you w little support from the other 5 mons.
I don't understand how anyone can support a gimmick that actively increases the MU fish aspect of the game.
In the past, you can still win a bad MU with skill, and it can be really fun to test the limits of your team and your skilll.
But imo, in certain cases, thanks to some of these tera sets that push mons into broken range, the one with the broken mon, for that battle, has to play like dog ass to lose.
It's not fun to win or lose at preview.
It just all goes back to one of Srn's main points in his initial tera post: Variance.
There are simply too many moving parts to ever have a stable, optimal, balanced tera meta.
Good reply. I still think though that espathra would be commonly used with screens, and then yes whilethere are still defensive answers to stop it from snowballing, it would become too limited imo and could very well still lead to ban with the limiting factor on teams.
Espathra is like one of those "okay, but why bother?" unban candidates in Magic the Gathering, like Mind Twist in Legacy or Splinter Twin in Modern. Even if it'd probably be fine without tera, you're basically just bringing it back to matchup fish, and make people hate playing against it.
Sure, Tera is what pushed it over the edge, but its entire job is to be a matchup-fishing, borderline uncompetitive piece of trash. Short of a complex ban situation, I don't think there's a single tier that would find itself better for Espathra's inclusion.
H-Samurott - Very good mon I think it'll be a OU stable
H-Decidueye - Niche mon cool stuff but too slow (prob drop)
H-Typhlosion - Personal fav mon, I think it has a lot of potential under Sun teams, still drop out of OU
H-Arcanine - This mon is borderline I think it can stay in OU, has so much power and anything with extreme speed is really nice. I like it a lot
H-Liligant - Trash with hustle
H-Braviary - Cool mon, very strong I can see it being in OU but this will be borderline as well.
H-Goodra - I think this mon is a baller, crazy typing and overall good special defensive mon I could see it being in OU if you have a wish passer on the team
Enamorus-I - Underrated, love this mon (solid OU mon)
Enamorus-T - trash af outside of trick room
Just my two cents on this, I'm not really sure if we should immediately get rid of Tera. For me, the changing of the type is one thing but what really makes it so complicated is the fact that until your opponent uses the thing, you pretty much have to do a guess work on what the tera type would be for not one but six pokemon. This uncertainty is what makes tera a bit overbearing for me because the surprise motherfucker tera types is the most annoying to deal with. We do have some ideas what tera types each pokemon commonly runs but things go downhill when a player uses a tera type not commonly run. That's why before we even consider banning tera completely, we should at least try something similar to vgc where we know what the tera type of each pokemon would be. Something like when a pokemon is out on the field, there would be some marker somewhere that says what its tera type is. If even gamefreak recognizes just how much terastal can fuck up a battle by having that team sheet thing, we should at least give it a try before getting rid of tera as a whole
And speaking of, can someone suggest to the showdown managers to add some sort of marker if a player has used their tera type already and which pokemon used it and what the type was? I mean, since showdown has a lot of quality of life stuff into it, why not add this one in too?
Glad Volc is getting serious attention from the council despite middling survey scores. As somebody who only started in Gen8 and played 95% lower tiers there, the discussion around Volc this gen has been really weird to observe. "Yeah, it's miserable, but it's always been miserable, so can it really be considered broken now?"
It's like the playerbase is so used to Volc being a massive pain-in-the-ass matchup fish without action being taken that (until recently) it was just considered useless to complain too much about it.
You are correct that we cannot tera dark clodsire/skeledirge to answer espathra if tera goes, but we won't need to. Assuming it keeps running the same set as last time (shown below), here's how a dazzling gleam without stab matches up against the dark types of this tier (which you generally want on every team anyway to resist ghost, so minimal teambuilding strain)
Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost
So imagine espathra finds a free turn, uses Calm Mind as your opponent switches into their dark type:
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 100-118 (24.7 - 29.2%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 110-130 (21.4 - 25.2%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar: 144-170 (44 - 51.9%)
(If you push it into berserk range, a +1 fiery wrath OHKO's you back)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 232-274 (79.1 - 93.5%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Overqwil: 123-145 (39.5 - 46.6%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 63-75 (15.2 - 18.1%)
(don't sleep on alolan muk it's heat)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Jugulis: 208-246 (63.2 - 74.7%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 230-272 (80.7 - 95.4%)
Omitting hydreigon and roaring moon because they're 4x weak and die, omitting other fringe darks for the sake of brevity.
You can see how much worse it does vs relevant darks without the fire power+defensive utility tera brings. It goes from broken into manageable matchup fish, much like demon mew from gen8. Once again, I am adamant that tera is the main reason why espathra was banned.
im gonna be real with these calcs: pretty disingenuous
samurott hisui sure, though that's still a shitload. with some spatk and rocks / spikes thats pretty easy.
+1 56 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 260-308 (80.9 - 95.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
keep in mind it literally already has a chance to kill with no investment:
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
hell, if you really need, don't even try to OHKO samurott hisui:
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 152 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 276-326 (74.7 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you need life orb + cb + similar, which are good options, but it's also not hard to chip samurott hisui either.
plus this is a meta where spike stacking is superbly easy, and look at this:
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
meowscarada same.
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 232-274 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 232-274 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 40 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 242-286 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
iron jugulis isn't relevant but, I will touch on it later
overqwil is not lasting in ou, not gonna be relevant.
alolan muk I don't see staying relevant either
hoopa unbound will languish in UUBL for eternity
moltres galar is a gimmick that is going to die, and is chunked very easily as well
this is all without considering how espathra could evolve to take advantage of the metagame either. with screens, all of these matchups are flipped:
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. +1 152 HP / 0 SpD Espathra through Light Screen: 135-160 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
it can literally calm mind + roost through gmoltres. and win the 1v1
252 Atk Choice Band Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 152 HP / 244+ Def Espathra through Reflect: 207-244 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
switching in on the first calm mind? tsk tsk tsk, now it gets a free second one. no hazards or chip required. and now your entire team is dead.
iron jugulis is one shot with no spatk invest, but also gets setup on with screens as well
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Jugulis: 208-246 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Jugulis Dark Pulse vs. +1 152 HP / 0 SpD Espathra through Light Screen: 189-223 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I could go through how it can also break through almost every Pokemon you listed with different viable sets or just with Screens, but I have to go other things. Of course, there is one I left out...
wooooooooo! another pokemon countered by kingambit! aka a mon that should be suspect tested with or without tera thank you for reading
edit: i forgot ting lu idk it can probably win without screens and loses otherwise, im not calcing rn
H-Samurott - Very good mon I think it'll be a OU stable
H-Decidueye - Niche mon cool stuff but too slow (prob drop)
H-Typhlosion - Personal fav mon, I think it has a lot of potential under Sun teams, still drop out of OU
H-Arcanine - This mon is borderline I think it can stay in OU, has so much power and anything with extreme speed is really nice. I like it a lot
H-Liligant - Trash with hustle
H-Braviary - Cool mon, very strong I can see it being in OU but this will be borderline as well.
H-Goodra - I think this mon is a baller, crazy typing and overall good special defensive mon I could see it being in OU if you have a wish passer on the team
Enamorus-I - Underrated, love this mon (solid OU mon)
Enamorus-T - trash af outside of trick room
all of them bar maybe samurott & enamorus-i will drop once things settle, i think. my 2nd (or 3rd or 4th or who-the-fuck-knows-anymoreth) hottest take in this meta is that enamorus-i isn’t really worth using on most teams over valiant, though it is still good.
also, it’s : mudkip : without the spaces between the colons
Goodra-Hisui @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Fairy/Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Dragon Tail
- Draco Meteor / Ice Beam / whatever
- Earthquake
You could even use gooey for easier revenge killing by your teammates. Can open up fun opportunities.
OHKO Iron Valiant, Enamorus, Heatran, Hatterena, Iron Moth, Dragapult, etc...
2HKO Gholdengo, Meowscarada, etc
The att.spe opponent is boosting (huhu Volcarona)? No pb, dragon tail.
Especially nice with hazard stack and wish/grass terrain support, but doesn't even need it to be useful.
all of them bar maybe samurott & enamorus-i will drop once things settle, i think. my 2nd (or 3rd or 4th or who-the-fuck-knows-anymoreth) hottest take in this meta is that enamorus-i isn’t really worth using on most teams over valiant, though it is still good.
also, it’s : mudkip : without the spaces between the colons
I see H-Arcanine staying, though that’ll probably be a ladder oddity akin to Iron Treads.
Enamorus, arguably, is at its best alongside Valiant, as the moonblast switchins still aren’t very high and few teams want to take on both Pokémon at once. Though, that’s all theory on my end, haven’t gotten around to building double fairy yet.
have to STRONGLY disagree there. Across every generation, the main reason Volc is allowed to stick around is bc omnipresent Stealth Rock and Heatran being a top 3-5 mon in OU. Even in spite of this, gems were largely banned in gen 5 ou due to the effectiveness of Gems Volc (and Cloyster, but these were the primary offenders). The reason why it has gotten significantly more attention in gen 8 and 9 is bc Boots break this thing and give it the consistency that it was never intended to have. The only major negative for volc in gen 9 was another "hard" counter in skeledirge.
Volc has always been a matchup fish cheese mon that wins or loses games largely based on team preview and adds little to nothing in terms of defensive counterplay to the tier.
im gonna be real with these calcs: pretty disingenuous
samurott hisui sure, though that's still a shitload. with some spatk and rocks / spikes thats pretty easy.
+1 56 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 260-308 (80.9 - 95.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
keep in mind it literally already has a chance to kill with no investment:
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
hell, if you really need, don't even try to OHKO samurott hisui:
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 152 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 276-326 (74.7 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you need life orb + cb + similar, which are good options, but it's also not hard to chip samurott hisui either.
plus this is a meta where spike stacking is superbly easy, and look at this:
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
meowscarada same.
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 232-274 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 232-274 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 40 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 242-286 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
iron jugulis isn't relevant but, I will touch on it later
overqwil is not lasting in ou, not gonna be relevant.
alolan muk I don't see staying relevant either
hoopa unbound will languish in UUBL for eternity
moltres galar is a gimmick that is going to die, and is chunked very easily as well
this is all without considering how espathra could evolve to take advantage of the metagame either. with screens, all of these matchups are flipped:
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. +1 152 HP / 0 SpD Espathra through Light Screen: 135-160 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
it can literally calm mind + roost through gmoltres. and win the 1v1
252 Atk Choice Band Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 152 HP / 244+ Def Espathra through Reflect: 207-244 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
switching in on the first calm mind? tsk tsk tsk, now it gets a free second one. no hazards or chip required. and now your entire team is dead.
iron jugulis is one shot with no spatk invest, but also gets setup on with screens as well
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Jugulis: 208-246 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Jugulis Dark Pulse vs. +1 152 HP / 0 SpD Espathra through Light Screen: 189-223 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I could go through how it can also break through almost every Pokemon you listed with different viable sets or just with Screens, but I have to go other things. Of course, there is one I left out...
wooooooooo! another pokemon countered by kingambit! aka a mon that should be suspect tested with or without tera thank you for reading
edit: i forgot ting lu idk it can probably win without screens and loses otherwise, im not calcing rn
You've gotten a lot better at chilling out, I notice you don't religiously laugh react every post anymore and have had some really subtle, data driven posts, so I'm going to engage with this one respectfully as I can, even though it has hints of some of your older rhetoric like extreme sarcasm.
But I digress.
Espa runs no Spa in Ubers or AG, just like it didn't in OU, so that's what I'm calcing off of, just like you have.
You strangely forgot about Ting, who can phase and/or weaken it enough for a +1 revenge like Bax Shard, Nite Speed, Sucker games, etc.
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 146-172 (28.4 - 33.4%) -- 92.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Scarf Uoopa always 1v1 +1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 140-166 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 152 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 416-492 (112.7 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A-Muk is far from irrelevant bro, especially in a Espa meta
+6 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 112-132 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
And again w G-Molt- why are you acting like this mon is going to fall off?
Even if it does, it wouldn't in an Espa meta.
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar: 192-226 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. +2 152 HP / 0 SpD Espathra: 204-242 (55.2 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
H-rott has sucker and jet...
Qwill is on rain, which Espa already has an issue with, but again, in an world where Espa is around, so would its checks be.
Scarf Meow outspeeds +2 Espa
252 Atk Meowscarada Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 152 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 282-332 (76.4 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are just Darks. And offensive sets. You could make G-Molt Max HP and Spd to cleanly 1v1 after Beserk.
Like I said Espa has soft checks as well.
Band Pult can also come in on a Espa CM and OHKO through screens + sub w Phantom
CM Hatt 1v1s
And don't forget about Gambit.
Is Gambit OP w/o Tera, hard to say, top tier forsure.
With Tera? Yeah, insane mon.
But this is a hypothetical where Tera is gone and Espa is OU.
I don't think Gambit would ever be banned w/o Tera.
Slow, 4x weak to fighting, in a meta where Tusk is king.
+6 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 305-359 (82.2 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 210-247 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and that's not getting into Hydre who can really play around w Sucker games thanks to Sub
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 211-249 (64.9 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
ID Corv 1v1
Encore is rising
Ting Lu
Gambit is an amazing mon, but it relies on getting an SD, being the last mon alive, and sucker mind games.
I don't think it would be broken w/o Tera, and thus, to conclude to hypothetical where Tera is banned and Espa is OU, Gambit would not be banned and you must factor that into your logic.
Espa not being broken by Tera is not a hill you want to die on.
Most of the pro-tera side, even those who are more pro-tera than you say tera pushed it out.
Let's just move on king.
Espa and Leki were pushed out 100% due to Tera, end of story.
Tera is fun, Tera requires creative thinking, Tera opens up the options and team building opportunities, Tera is unique among the Pokemon metagame universe, etc.
Therefore Tera should stay.
those of you saying you have "no opinion" on light clay, can I ask what kind of teams you're seeing on ladder? How can you have "no opinion" on a strategy that nearly every player abuses?
It would be sad to see urshifu go, such a nice mix of offensive and defensive presence. Whilst I do think it needs a suspect at some point, I will lament the time of having options to deal with Kingambit - who is already beginning to rear its head in a lot more end games with the first wave of bans.
People mentioned magearna brings a nice defensive profile to the meta. Imo urshifu brings a much better, healthier one. Being such a great offensive switch in with OK speed and strong presence.
Magearna is yet another optimised BST steel with a great movepool that just further shits on the bugs, psychics, grasses, poisons and ices of OU that already have a hard time coming out. it also encourages even more use of ground/fire coverage, like we need more of it…
Magearna's offensive and defensive presence in the tier was overwhelmingly healthy minus one singular set, and the removal of the Pokémon has only seen that same set adapted to different abusers. Being allowed to infinitely set up via screens is the common issue. Tera also compounds the issue but A) Magearna has a good type & Teraing it away isn't always beneficial and B) Tera can't be banned right now, and if it eventually is, many Pokémon banned will also be looked at again, why not look at Light Clay again with them
I mean this in all seriousness. How many Pokémon have to get banned before we address the Donphan in the room, Tera?
Volcarona is a popular well, liked mon that has always had viable options for counterplay. Only reason this is even being discussed is Tera.
Regeleki is barely viable without Tera.
I know Magearna has a lot of tools these days, but the thing was once a team builder’s dream in past gens. The defensive typing opens up more team slots for other mons. It made metagame more creative.
What do you mean about Volcarona, that Pokemon is one of the most controversial in competitive singles history since it's introduction in BW and there are regularly talks to potentially retroactively suspect it in past generations, it's a nuisance with or without Tera.
Otherwise i can understand your sentiment, at this point i don't really buy the argument anymore that most Pokemon were not largely banned because of Tera, but Finch already told that it will be revisited in 1-2 months from now after the most egregious mons are banned and meta somewhat settled which makes sense to me.
Tera is fun, Tera requires creative thinking, Tera opens up the options and team building opportunities, Tera is unique among the Pokemon metagame universe, etc.
Therefore Tera should stay.
Whenever someone uses the tera is fun argument for tera to stay you automatically lose me lol.
Tera actually doesn't require creative thinking people just piggyback off of common teras that are being used (you think it's creative now because the HOME meta is young)
Tera actually negates a lot of team building opportunities since its almost impossible to prepare for sometimes (Look at Volcarona). (So it's quite the opposite)
idk what being unique has to do with a broken mechanic, sorry.
im gonna be real with these calcs: pretty disingenuous
samurott hisui sure, though that's still a shitload. with some spatk and rocks / spikes thats pretty easy.
+1 56 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 260-308 (80.9 - 95.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
keep in mind it literally already has a chance to kill with no investment:
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
hell, if you really need, don't even try to OHKO samurott hisui:
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 152 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 276-326 (74.7 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you need life orb + cb + similar, which are good options, but it's also not hard to chip samurott hisui either.
plus this is a meta where spike stacking is superbly easy, and look at this:
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
meowscarada same.
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 232-274 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 232-274 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 40 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 242-286 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
iron jugulis isn't relevant but, I will touch on it later
overqwil is not lasting in ou, not gonna be relevant.
alolan muk I don't see staying relevant either
hoopa unbound will languish in UUBL for eternity
moltres galar is a gimmick that is going to die, and is chunked very easily as well
this is all without considering how espathra could evolve to take advantage of the metagame either. with screens, all of these matchups are flipped:
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. +1 152 HP / 0 SpD Espathra through Light Screen: 135-160 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
it can literally calm mind + roost through gmoltres. and win the 1v1
252 Atk Choice Band Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 152 HP / 244+ Def Espathra through Reflect: 207-244 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
switching in on the first calm mind? tsk tsk tsk, now it gets a free second one. no hazards or chip required. and now your entire team is dead.
iron jugulis is one shot with no spatk invest, but also gets setup on with screens as well
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Jugulis: 208-246 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Jugulis Dark Pulse vs. +1 152 HP / 0 SpD Espathra through Light Screen: 189-223 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I could go through how it can also break through almost every Pokemon you listed with different viable sets or just with Screens, but I have to go other things. Of course, there is one I left out...
wooooooooo! another pokemon countered by kingambit! aka a mon that should be suspect tested with or without tera thank you for reading
edit: i forgot ting lu idk it can probably win without screens and loses otherwise, im not calcing rn
Bro cherry picked quite easily the frailest Dark typed Pokémon in the game to support his claim tears in my eyes. Y'all are massively overhyping how good Esp is without the ability to pick, choose and invalidate whatever it wants to as a counter.
Moltres-Galar is probably pretty good in a non Tera metagame considering it beats 2 out of 3 Unaware Pokémon and it's biggest threat in bulky Fairy tyes are essentially extinct. It was viable in Gen 8 and the environment is only better now, so I would not be surprised if it became quite viable actually. Considering you never post calcs that involve Moltres setting up or taking Berserk into account, and given how Dazzling Gleam doesn't become a real danger to Molt until it hits +3 I think it's a pretty disingenuous calc you got here.
I don't understand your Hoopa-U reasoning either. Even if UUBL somehow was a 1 to 1 correlation of viability (it isn't), what actual reasonings do you have to place it there? My only thought process is the metagame is offensive but in this theoretical post Tera world idk how much weight that holds. When it comes down to it, Hoopa-U is a potent wallbreaker that thrives against multiple common fat mons and blows them back for big chunks, I don't know why it would be unviable. And non Tera Espa is not taking out a Hoopa-U lol.
Finally, Kingambit is not suspect worthy if Tera is gone. Thinking that is insane, and idk what else to say on that matter if you think like that.
The most important thing to note is that, any bulky Dark type handles any Espathra set fine. Espathra is a matchup fish by design, but so is Hyper Offense on a whole. The reason it was eventually banned is because Espathra wasn't really a matchup fish Pokémon anymore, it was unbeatable besides two Terrible options (Tera Dark Clod/Skele) you were forced to run which can't fit on every team. Without Tera, I wouldn't even consider Espathra consistent enough to be a top threat in UU, it's something that is easily answered by many notable OU threats that don't have to deviate from their standard to account for it.
H-Samurott: ceaseless edge, nice :)
H-Decidueye: strong, but not bulky enough or fast enough to justify using it over other threats (it's solid tho, probably better for the lower tiers)
H-Typhlosion: It's just slightly better typhlosion, don't use it.
H-Arcanine: scarf is too weak, band is too slow. This would be insane in a lower tier, it's not built for ou tho
H-Liligant: LMAO SO GARBAGE WHY WOULD U USE IT???????
H-Braviary: Niche, gimmicky, but it could sweep if ur unprepared
H-Goodra: physical attacks destroy this thing, but it's a decent special wall (no reliable recovery hurts tho)
Enamorus-I: it's ok, a little slow, but it's very strong
Enamorus-T: hatt is now enam-t from wish.com, draining kiss with cm is pretty decent.
H-Samu: Samurott-H's preferred prey was always Heatran, Slowking-G, Skeledirge, defensive Gholdengo, etc. While you can argue that Zama-C made Skeledirge and Gholdengo stocks go up, Chien-Pao and Zama-C going meaning fewer Sucker Punch resists should also help Samu-H. You don't need Stealth Rock when Samu-H is on your team, but be prepared to never set Spikes in some games.
H-Decid: Haven't really seen it, but I can't imagine its fairly poor speed and its frailty are any good for it. Too easily switched into and revenge killed, I say.
H-Typh: Being the fastest Fire/Ghost type available is shockingly good, but the lack of bulk tanks it. If I want a Fire/Ghost, Skeledirge is better overall.
H-Arca: I've been punked enough times by endgame Tera Normal Extreme Speed - this mon chasing out both Skeledirge and Gholdengo (two more prominent Ghosts) anyway also helps its case. Get it in carefully and it can do work.
H-Lilli: Scary enough that you have to respect it. Sleep Powder can be surprisingly troublesome. Victory Dance is no fun to face. The good news is that mons that block Lilligant-H (unless it Teras) also deal with several other mons.
H-Brave: Seen it a bit, it doesn't like Dark-types at all because they block Esper Wing, it can sting, but it's 2-OHKOed too often.
H-Goodra: One of the hardest walls/tanks to switch into IMO due to its insane coverage, decent Heatran lure with Earthquake/Earth Power, screws over Trick Room teams with Heavy Slam + Dragon Tail, you can EV Assault Vest it to tank unboosted Iron Valiant Close Combat and guaranteed OHKO it back, it makes Urshifu-R regret using Choice Band. Haven't built an OU team with it yet, but I really want to - it's put in work for me already in other metas, especially OU-like ones.
Enamo-I: Great mon. Don't believe anyone who says she's a worse Iron Valiant - the Ground immunity is really awesome and definitely eases teambuilding. Earth Power on a Fairy is also quite nice. Physical Contrary sets are shockingly bad, though, and Boots sets don't hit hard enough. I prefer Expert Belt and reluctantly support Specs or Taunt if you hate Dondozo. Still wondering whether Cute Charm Agility or Contrary Tailwind is better - Tailwind lasts shorter, but teammates can take advantage of the speed boost if you mispredict and Lando-T OHKOes her the turn you use Tailwind. Enamorus-I needed Tera Fairy/Fire instead of Ground as long as Chien-Pao remained unbanned - you can go back to Tera Ground on non-Specs sets now.
Enamo-T: I got beaten by her once behind Screens; she boosted and boosted and then Draining Kissed and Earth Powered my mons to hell. Nice bulk outside of Screens, but the lack of speed hurts her Ursaluna-style.
Mon hits like a freight train, I don’t know what you mean. Whether it’s the theatrics of Tera Grass Leaf Blade literally 2hkoing the entire tier or the more consistent, but still powerful, Sleep Powder Victory Dance CC Filler. Definitely very scary, flawed enough to not be an OU mon but there’s never a world where you go “damn I’m up a mon bc my opp has a Hisuigant.”
Samurott-Hisui: This Pokemon was already good when they were around, it somehow only got better. When the final doge goes this thing might be top tier. I am shocked by the damage that even neutral nature non item boosted Ceaseless Edge does, and those Spikes that always ensure that progress is made only strengthen it's progress potential. I've won the trade between it and offensive Tusk using nothing but Razor Shell into Sucker Punch on it's predicted Rapid Spin, and all in all I find it to be an excellent addition to the tier. A rank mon.
Decidueye-Hisui: Unfortunately this mon is ass Doo Doo cheeks. Funny Defog is it's only niche but it is strapped as hell for moveslots atm. I honestly already wrote this off as a RU big timer tbh sorry.
Typhlosion-Hisui: I think this also suffers from not having a sure footing in the meta, but I guess it has that rare niche of offensive spinblocker on Sun teams? (Good grief the balls on you for using this to Spin block Tusk).
Arcanine-Hisui: Likes the bans but this Pokemon imo is a wait and see approach. I don't think we should quickly write this off as one suggests for Typh or Deci, but I would not be surprised if this falls to UU(BL) and this becomes a B- ranked breaker.
Lilligant-Hisui: This mon is pretty crazy and I actually think it hates the bans as much as it loves them. Tera Ghost using a Crowned as set up bait is hilarious, and it loves how Chien Pao busts up holes for it to clean later, but any sweep using a Lilligant was in danger of being ended by a Banded Adamant Ice Shard if it didn't set up enough, and if it wasn't Tera Ghost and Crowned shed it's Steel typing, it was usually gg from there. Still a good mon overall so I think it clicks B+.
Braviary-Hisui: Same story as Arcanine, only difference is I think it directly benefits from bans more than Arcanine did.
Goodra-Hisui: It loves the bans but imo jury is still out on whether or not said bans ultimately matter long term. I haven't used one and the only time I faced one I lost to para Hax, so I don't know what to expect with this thing in the tier.
Enamorus-I: Absolutely loves the bans, and is already imo skyrocketing up the ranks. The metagame has long forgotten what it feels like to take a real Specs Moonblast and Enam is def reminding people of that. It holds a few advantages over Iron Valiant but I still believe they will either share the same viability ranking once the dust settles or Enam will be only one sub rank lower.
Enamorus-T: I think this thing is a real nasty matchup fish and not in the cool and good way. Needs too much support to get off them CM sweeps consistently and hates how there are a million ways Slowking-Galar can fuck you over (Trick, Chilling into a check risk free, being a REAL Mon and just run set up too.) and unfortunately for Enam Glowking is top dog rn.
