I can agree with this.
Still, I feel like out of the recent bans, Volcarona deserves a suspecting down the line, even if there is no change to Terastalize.
Thank you for clarifying, though.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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Still, I feel like out of the recent bans, Volcarona deserves a suspecting down the line, even if there is no change to Terastalize.
Thank you for clarifying, though.
Mixed feelings about Zamazenta-Hero staying at a 3.7 on the survey whilst Urshifu, at 2.66, was quickbanned.
Urshifu was definitely very restrictive, but imo Zama is much more of a priority, as indicated by the community. I think generally I'd prefer for council members to prioritise mons with higher community disapproval - banning both would be fine but specifically the DNB votes on Zama feel weird to me, from people that also voted ban on Shifu.
And, whilst I personally made a post advocating for action on Volcarona, I still think the ideal approach would have been to vote 'do not ban' for now, and include Volcarona and potentially other issues like Tera on a follow-up survey.
Urshifu was definitely very restrictive, but imo Zama is much more of a priority, as indicated by the community. I think generally I'd prefer for council members to prioritise mons with higher community disapproval - banning both would be fine but specifically the DNB votes on Zama feel weird to me, from people that also voted ban on Shifu.
And, whilst I personally made a post advocating for action on Volcarona, I still think the ideal approach would have been to vote 'do not ban' for now, and include Volcarona and potentially other issues like Tera on a follow-up survey.
I think that Tera may be looked at first, but if Tera stays, Volc will get a formal retest hopefully. If Tera goes, Volc will default back to OU
Unless you think Finchinator is puppeting half a dozen people postmortem, he's not the only one who thinks that way.
Nor is the support for banning Matchup Moth as rare as you think. It's always been up there with the tier-0 stuff, and at this point, it's spent nearly five years having excuses made for it. It should have been suspected a long time ago, but the slow process of pre-Home made it a logistical difficulty.
Personally? I'd rather the OU council occasionally over-ban and actually get through their workload, than languish with three weeks of deliberation over a tier-0 mon that people wrote in en masse.
I feel like the reason the Volcarona ban doesn't sit right with a lot of people including myself was just the process taken to reach that solution. If Volc was tested and then banned, there wouldn't really be as many complaints, but this case is just all sorts of weird and I'll get into that.
We've had Volc since day 1 and the same with Tera, and it feels absolutely wild that a mon that we've had for over half a year is now suddenly Quickbanned. Now this would have been understandable if Home gave it moves that mattered (e.g. Blissey getting Heal Bell) but Volc got literally no changes. It wasn't a pokemon new to the game like the Hisui Mons, it wasn't a pokemon unbanned for Home Drops like Chien-Pao, it was an OU mon that got no changes so it being banned in this way makes it weird pill to swallow.
I guess part of what I want is clarity, is this just a thing now? That mons we've had for that long of a time can just be Quickbanned? I'm pretty sure it started here because we didn't do this for mons like Vish and that was Chi-Yu levels of unanimous hate. I think most people just didn't think it was even possible to happen.
We've had Volc since day 1 and the same with Tera, and it feels absolutely wild that a mon that we've had for over half a year is now suddenly Quickbanned. Now this would have been understandable if Home gave it moves that mattered (e.g. Blissey getting Heal Bell) but Volc got literally no changes. It wasn't a pokemon new to the game like the Hisui Mons, it wasn't a pokemon unbanned for Home Drops like Chien-Pao, it was an OU mon that got no changes so it being banned in this way makes it weird pill to swallow.
I guess part of what I want is clarity, is this just a thing now? That mons we've had for that long of a time can just be Quickbanned? I'm pretty sure it started here because we didn't do this for mons like Vish and that was Chi-Yu levels of unanimous hate. I think most people just didn't think it was even possible to happen.
LoseToRU?, we are of similar mindsets when it comes to tera, & i know this may be both ironic & hypocritical coming from me, but oftentimes it is not what you say, but rather how you say it.
are you correct in asserting that this sort of stuff is a logical conclusion of keeping tera in the meta, & that there may be a contradiction in a pro-tera person’s position should they take umbrage with this? in my view, yes.
but as my grandma says: you catch more flies with honey than shit, & you are, in my view, making it easier for people to disregard our side of the aisle with posts such as these. it is just poor rhetoric, & rhetoric is just as important, if not more so, than sound reasoning in changing people’s minds.
i in no way intend for this to be a personal attack against you, either. just that if we are to see the results we want, we must be tactful.
are you correct in asserting that this sort of stuff is a logical conclusion of keeping tera in the meta, & that there may be a contradiction in a pro-tera person’s position should they take umbrage with this? in my view, yes.
but as my grandma says: you catch more flies with honey than shit, & you are, in my view, making it easier for people to disregard our side of the aisle with posts such as these. it is just poor rhetoric, & rhetoric is just as important, if not more so, than sound reasoning in changing people’s minds.
i in no way intend for this to be a personal attack against you, either. just that if we are to see the results we want, we must be tactful.
there a lot of fighting types in ou at the moment, all of which are physical (except valiant sometimes). Hoodra also folds to a lot of powerful physical attackers, many of which are fighting or ground types. also eq and cc are extremely common coverage options.
Hey finch can you ask ausma to explain why she decided to vote no ban on zamazenta-hero despite voting ban on the previous slate?
I'm not saying Finch is the only one who thinks this way. Obviously 6 other members of the OU council agreed with him. However, even if he didn’t intend to rig a vote (and I don’t believe he would have,) you cant say his post history hasn’t influenced how people see Volc considering the 0-9 to 7-2 swing.
I shouldn't have to say how your attitude on this is rude and lacks tact. Why can people who are pro tera not comment nor address it if they want? Why are you preventing their ability to actually speak and unable to speak their minds? If their arguments end up flawed, counter said arguments and move on. That's what you've been doing from day one. Just keep doing that. Shutting people down like this does nothing.
Buddy, you have never even spoken to me about whether I would prefer to ban Volc or Tera. In fact you never once asked me what I think about a Tera ban. So how would you know what I would vote? You objectively cannot know what I would vote for. Shockingly I've noted multiple time that I agree that I see why Tera is an issue. So don't generalize me with these other Pro Tera people you seem to despise.
This is once again a situation where you are limiting a certain group of people from even possibly being able to speak their minds or offer their own counterpoints if any. If people complain and you disagree. Counter their points and move on. You can make counterpoints and not be an asshole. Be the better and more mature person.
Generalizations aside, the idea of shutting down any adverse opinion and point of view is indeed quite toxic. Being an actual asshole and being unnecessarily rude is very much so quite toxic. Consantly attacking a specific group who shares a differing point of view than you is indeed toxic. Read what you said, how you said it. I don't care if you use the Volc ban as a way to justify Tera being banned. I also agree with it being a point towards it being uncompetitive. That doesn't change the attitude you give. How rude you have been across this thread.
I don't remember complaining about the ban. Please link to a post where I, Crimson Chris, have said anything about being against Volc's ban.
If you read my post directly to you, you'll see that I never once went against the idea of Volcorona being banned. I never once complained about "lol skill issue", "loladapt", etc. So I'd appreciate you not lumping me in with the Pro Tera people who you've had discussions with in the past. They aren't me. I simply called out how you were acting and said that this isn't going to help anyone have a reasonable discussion. I pointed out how it was in fact a toxic post, not because I was angry cuz Volc was banned, never once. It was based on how restrictive, confrontational and rude said comment was and how that's no way to actually have a healthy discussion. You can be as logical as you want to be, but being "right" isn't going to matter if how you deliver the message turns people off from the get go. No one is gonna listen to a person telling them that they "can't say anything about Y". People aren't going to listen to someone who is generalizing them with a group of people that while the endgoal they agree with, they may not agree with certain arguments. In the end, it becomes a screaming match that did not need to occur. And at the end of the day, nothing gets done as nothing productive happens in the discussion.
Hear this from a man who likes Tera. I adore Tera. But if it is truly uncompetitive, truly bad and truly needs to go. So be it. I have no issues with your point of view. In fact I have already stated before today that I truly understand the Ban Tera point of view. My issue simply comes from the lack of tact in this scenario and why I decided to actually call it out.
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This type of message gets posted by someone salty at least once a week so just want to say that no this is not what happened and you can go check YouTube yourself. I posted a video called "Should Terastallize be banned in Pokemon Scarlet and Violet?" featuring me and my 3 buddies who all got reqs and have been playing tournament for 10 years to great success. That vid got 46k views and a lot of people cried and said that its why tera didn't get banned. But I'm sure you have no problem with freezai posting a video called ""Why Terastalization Should Be Banned" which got 144k views and is a literal direct call to action. "Telling randos to go vote pro-tera? It always goes back to this type of statement. Randos that started playing this morning don't vote in suspect tests. You have to battle and get reqs and show a certain level of competence. I know you want to phrase this as "im very smart and anti-tera and those who like tera are stupid" but I promise you that this is not the way. I know bro, you're extremely smart and able to resist my and joey's mind control which the other impressionable fools just cant seem to do. I won't go back and forth so absorb my post and move on.
June 4
Urshifu 1-8
Volcarona 0-9
June 12 (Day before WCoP)
Urshifu 9-0 QB
Volcarona 7-2 QB
Zamazenta-Hero, despite being the most supported for a ban in the survey (3.7) and June 4 vote (4-5) among currently OU mons, miraculously survives the ban hammer.
I see no reason for suspicion. A whole lot must have went down in 1 week
It'll be interesting see how the metagame develops now. The current measures against Zama-H is heavily towards checking BPress sets. FS+attacking Zama could be the new wave.
Urshifu 1-8
Volcarona 0-9
June 12 (Day before WCoP)
Urshifu 9-0 QB
Volcarona 7-2 QB
Zamazenta-Hero, despite being the most supported for a ban in the survey (3.7) and June 4 vote (4-5) among currently OU mons, miraculously survives the ban hammer.
I see no reason for suspicion. A whole lot must have went down in 1 week
It'll be interesting see how the metagame develops now. The current measures against Zama-H is heavily towards checking BPress sets. FS+attacking Zama could be the new wave.
Volc going before Zama-H feels a bit crazy. I think there are still good answers to volc in the tier, both defensive (clod, dirge, dondozo, garganacl to say the first ones that pop into my head) and in the way of revenge killing it (kingambit, dnite, etc.) and it's not all that broken althought definitely bery strong in some matchups, as it as always been. Zama-H on the other hand has insane stats, being outsped only by Dragapult and Zeraora but having way more bulk and comparable offenses to these two. It can quickly become unstoppable after an iron defense if your team lacks a hard counter like toxapex and its fourth move allows it to bypass would be checks (crunch for gold and pult, behemoth bash for enamorus). The band set is also very good, trading sweeping potential for immediate power. If anything, zama-h is more broken than zama crowned because it can actually use its item. Really scratching my head over this decision by the council.
Urshifu's ban feels a bit more justified. The damage it can dish out with punching glove is definitely too much and pushes it over the line it was already close to last gen. Swords dance is just a cherry on top, allowing it to easily circumvent all of its defensive would be checks except dondozo which is kinda passive and easily exploitable.
With that said, here are some more replays featuring my current favorite mons in the current meta:
Urshifu's ban feels a bit more justified. The damage it can dish out with punching glove is definitely too much and pushes it over the line it was already close to last gen. Swords dance is just a cherry on top, allowing it to easily circumvent all of its defensive would be checks except dondozo which is kinda passive and easily exploitable.
With that said, here are some more replays featuring my current favorite mons in the current meta:
Slowking G aka The Boss:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882593226-icm3yhd0asbd52011cnltvib3853mydpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882539001
SubSD Garchomp:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882637233-epp1u47polsvdbvwp1iyt0i5ftl2jp5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882639453
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882422690
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882710878-15o66qyatzahrikc5bjnai3k8c1eeflpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882593226-icm3yhd0asbd52011cnltvib3853mydpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882539001
SubSD Garchomp:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882637233-epp1u47polsvdbvwp1iyt0i5ftl2jp5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882639453
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882422690
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882710878-15o66qyatzahrikc5bjnai3k8c1eeflpw
This sentiment 100%. Anybody who's good enough to get suspect reqs gets to vote, it doesn't matter what your opinions are or who told you to vote what.
Regarding the volcarona qb, I feel like it would not have gotten banned through a suspect if it was opened today, considering the OP snow leopard only got banned with a 69% majority (still crazy to me lol). That said, I think volcarona has been on the edge for a while and I fully support getting rid of tera abusers if tera is going to stay.
I think watershifu would've eventually garnered enough support to get banned through suspect, and we are just kicking it out early. No problems here.
ratio, this might be the stupidest point i've ever read bro stop making up conspiracy theories because the meta in an online pokemon game is not going the way you want it to. way to admit you literally just don't respect the voters that have a different opinion from yours and make 0 effort to understand their point of view lol
During this week, two more huge bans occurred (Zamazenta-Crowned and Chien-Pao) while Magearna was not yet banned when that vote took place either.
These three defined the metagame and tied-up so many resources. Not to mention that the first vote was 3 days into a metagame, skewing potential perceptions.
my bans, for the most part, were somewhat aggressive on the basis of stabilizing the tier before we enter wcop. volcarona and urshifu-r are pokemon that i believe deserve suspect tests, same with zamazenta-h, as opposed to outright bans in general, however are both pokemon that rather overtly promote unhealthy metagame dynamics with their ability to either brute force past supposed checks (urshifu) or simply gear their tera/set around them (volcarona). i believe with these two pokemon gone wcop matches will see less games taken by an unpredictable tera or a pokemon that is far too demanding to switch around and prep for and promote more competitive play and building. i feel there's not much more value in just waiting to see them broken in wcop since it's pretty clear in what ways they're broken.
now, i'm sure you're all confused about my vote on zamazenta-h as zamazenta-h arguably embodies these same traits and falls under the same philosophy regarding wcop stability, but to me it doesn't really. i think zamazenta-h is a really tricky pokemon to evaluate unlike urshifu and volcarona to a lesser extent, as it can be extremely dominating or do little to nothing. oftentimes most competent structures have an option to check it either through having a way to mitigate the impact of its body press and then dispatching it in the 1v1. you can do this with dragapult (one of the best mons in the tier rn if not the best), zapdos (another one of the best mons in the tier) galarian slowking (yet another one of the best mons in the tier), id corviknight, id garganacl with tera, skeledirge, etc etc which all see usage for their other defensive applications and have mostly little issue taking on crunch. there is a lot that checks it to a point where overwhelming it is not extremely demanding from my experience and i feel like wcop prep will naturally be able to weave in counterplay far more compared to urshifu-r and volcarona in the current state of the metagame due to how obscenely linear body press is. band is mostly carried by surprise factor rn imo and is fairly good but not broken whatsoever as even more checks exist for it due to zamazenta only having one stab to work with, and is a set i actually do think has some worthwhile merits in the tier as i've mentioned in my previous posts.
i will say that i actually do personally err on the side of broken for zamazenta, and me choosing to vote for an unban was done under a razor thin margin. i emphatically support a suspect for it, with results hopefully before r2 of wcop, and i probably will vote ban. though for me it's one of those mons that i feel really should have more data due to its incredibly volatile results. hope this makes sense
now, i'm sure you're all confused about my vote on zamazenta-h as zamazenta-h arguably embodies these same traits and falls under the same philosophy regarding wcop stability, but to me it doesn't really. i think zamazenta-h is a really tricky pokemon to evaluate unlike urshifu and volcarona to a lesser extent, as it can be extremely dominating or do little to nothing. oftentimes most competent structures have an option to check it either through having a way to mitigate the impact of its body press and then dispatching it in the 1v1. you can do this with dragapult (one of the best mons in the tier rn if not the best), zapdos (another one of the best mons in the tier) galarian slowking (yet another one of the best mons in the tier), id corviknight, id garganacl with tera, skeledirge, etc etc which all see usage for their other defensive applications and have mostly little issue taking on crunch. there is a lot that checks it to a point where overwhelming it is not extremely demanding from my experience and i feel like wcop prep will naturally be able to weave in counterplay far more compared to urshifu-r and volcarona in the current state of the metagame due to how obscenely linear body press is. band is mostly carried by surprise factor rn imo and is fairly good but not broken whatsoever as even more checks exist for it due to zamazenta only having one stab to work with, and is a set i actually do think has some worthwhile merits in the tier as i've mentioned in my previous posts.
i will say that i actually do personally err on the side of broken for zamazenta, and me choosing to vote for an unban was done under a razor thin margin. i emphatically support a suspect for it, with results hopefully before r2 of wcop, and i probably will vote ban. though for me it's one of those mons that i feel really should have more data due to its incredibly volatile results. hope this makes sense
This may blow people's minds, but an extremely fresh and new metagame that is subject to regular and fast bans can, shocker, evolve extremely rapidly in a way that causes people's opinions of it to shift fast. Some people really want to scream conspiracy when the much more simple explanation of "deadly setup sweeper that can pick and choose its counters, get rid of its biggest weaknesses via the new generation mechanic, and has been regularly considered close to banworthy by many for almost a decade ended up too much for the tier after the more egregious busted mons got removed" is right there lmao
edit: people keep talking about how it was apparently fine before home but the thing is, with OU the way it is now, it is so much harder to fit shit like skeledirge or ceruledge or AV azumarill or SpD dondozo or garganacl or tera fire kingambit or banded dnite or tera flying roaring moon or whatever niche check to volcarona people used!
edit: people keep talking about how it was apparently fine before home but the thing is, with OU the way it is now, it is so much harder to fit shit like skeledirge or ceruledge or AV azumarill or SpD dondozo or garganacl or tera fire kingambit or banded dnite or tera flying roaring moon or whatever niche check to volcarona people used!
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So what mons benefit from the lack of Volc and Urshifu?
Kingambit for sure, but also Zama-H from Volc and the whole gang of Ground types from Urshifu probably.
Enamorus also appreciates Volcarona going as well
Gholdengo I think since Scarf could be limited by giving Volc a free setup oppurtunity.
Ting-Lu benefits massively too. It can now focus on being a hazard bot most games instead of being used as a Volc emergency check or potentially getting Sniped by Urshifu. That being said, Hatterene might get more usage which it won't like.
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