Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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ausma said:
As I've mentioned in my previous post, I voted the way I did with the full intention to advocate for suspecting the targeted Pokemon in the future. I believe Volcarona deserves a suspect test, and I believe Urshifu-R deserves one too; however I personally recognize that, in spite of that, there are clear influences on both play and the building process that these Pokemon pose on the tier that I personally feel we would be better off avoiding during WCoP due to its high-level status and being a format entrenched in opportunity for players of different backgrounds to make their mark. I believe a stable metagame is important for that, and unfortunately there are just way too many problems with the tier to where I personally saw this approach as a necessary evil. Again, I will be advocating for suspect tests on these Pokemon to be freed at an opportune time.

You all have the right to express your frustrations and concerns regarding the recent decision, and we do not want to try and censor that by locking the thread like last time. However, blatant insults are not and never will be tolerated. Anybody who tries to belittle or attack others for their stance on the matter or demonstrating any kind of hostility toward others will be infracted going forward.

For a more constructive approach, I would implore you all to check out Finchinator's recent policy review post regarding tiering responses we have started to do going into this generation and how we can improve them, as we are human and are still learning how to adapt to Pokemon's new release frameworks. If you are upset about the current state of affairs, I implore that you read the thread and leave your thoughts there as it is the place to do so. Thanks!
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I want to shout out Ausma for her professionalism and openness during the last few days! She’s, both on this forum and on Discord been addressing concerns about people who are upset, without lumping them in with the folks who are being unreasonable! (Death threats and extreme hostility toward other users is ABSURD) I have spoken with others on discord and other social media and they agree she’s done a great job!
I appreciate that there’s been no mocking those in this forum from her other socials and/or the forum itself! She hasn’t been posting as regularly as Finch but every interaction she’s had has explained why she voted how she did on the 9-0 and 7-2 votes respectively, that we can expect suspects of both in the near future, why she didn’t vote ban on Zama! As well as some other things she explained on Discord. While I personally disagree with her votes, her extremely polite handling of this has been extremely helpful in keeping people from feeling like they are being heard and not just mocked or ignored!
As for those who still feel like the decision of suspect testing, and potentially banning Zamazenta is missing the point. I certainly am not happy with the decision but the cat is out of the bag and this is how it’s gonna be handled. But I think we can be assured the tier *will* address our concerns, hopefully within the next month. My personal expectation is Zama will be gone by the end of the week but if it’s not, I can’t wait to be burning the HECK out of it! ;)
And once more, those who are threatening and harassing council that is OBSCENE behavior. Look at the dozens of posts on this thread, you can voice your disagreement and disappointment in a reasonable manner. You can even be passionate and that’s ok! (As seen by CTC and Vert’s posts)
 
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I may no be forum mod, but I have a proposal for the rules going forward.

Every use of the word of “We” or “The Community” should be replaced by “I”.

You can jabber all you like about people wanting this or not wanting that (Despite a record number of people writing in on something NEVER SUSPECTED before) but did you ask each and every one of them? Do they truly want a 50% Simple Majority for one feature when everything ever has been a Supermajority for Stability?

Give it a shot and see what it does.
 
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As the first person to get reqs (before the thread even came out lol) here's my thoughts on zama

I initially thought the mon was broken. In my opinion zama is on the level of Kingambit and Tusk rn. It's forcing people to use a LOT of enamorus and iron valiant. I used to hate versing the leftovers sub ID BP set as well however it might just be the team im using but I found that to be very easy to counter with an Encore mon such as encore dragonite (which is my main counter to it). Of course Dragonite is not the most reliable single hand check to Zama since because its faster and you need a DD to encore it, however as a result of that I have been running Tera Ghost low kick Kingambit as well as using Iron Valiant or Enamorus as both are very solid checks to the mon.
In terms of its presence in the metagame im not seeing it as much as I thought I would but as of writing this post I will be voting Do not Ban against the 'mon as I've got a lot more experience playing against it now and I honestly think its very manageable
The sub set is very good but unfortunately loses to stall and does not have fairy coverage if its going sub ID BP crunch so I actually think Banded Zama is in a better position right now. I lost 3 games VS banded zama, and trust me when it starts clicking CC and tera fightings theres very little you can do since it frankly 2HKOs everything. So it would be a very good idea to run tera ghost on mons that zama counters so you can goob it back

play more vs zama. you will see its not as bad as it initially seems
 
tigers jaw said:
i’ll just give you a list, it’s like 2am & i’m on mobile so i am unironically doing the Doesn’t Elaborate, Leaves meme

tusk, gambit, garg, valiant, bax, zama-h, pult, dnite, floatzel, gholdengo, wake

this is also purely limited to pokémon, not any other elements i would nuke if given the choice

this generation has kinda been a wash from the start given what game freak gave us, & the mentality of the community has just made it unsalvageable by this point

haha-react all u ppl want btw. it just makes me more powerful (read: spiteful)

edit: xxart, tera fairy for stronger moonblasts, tera ghost for stronger shadow balls, tera electric for stronger tbolts, tera steel for defensive purposes, tera fight for strong close combats, tera dark for a stronger knock off, the list goes on & each of these have their specific applications for teams with regards to what you need it to beat
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If you think floatzel is broken, be thankful you didn't play gen 8 pre DLCs w/ Barraskewda wrecking havoc. To be fair, rain is very balanced this gen, and if you REALLY hate it, just play some weather control (read Ttar, Torkoal, Slowbros, A-Ninetales, really ANYTHING). Even then, Floatzel is the absolute worst swift swim user RN, even crippled barraskewda is better, Basculegion on the other hand is kinda good in rain ngl. I could elaborate further with other mons you said but chose to talk about Floatzel because i see how you can be salty (not exactly w/ reason, pult, for example, is pretty counterable this gen) but Floatzel is literally impossible to hate.

EDIT: Barraskewda isn't better than Floatzel this gen, and Floatzel isn't the worst Sswim user rn.
 
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DeimosH said:
If you think floatzel is broken, be thankful you didn't play gen 8 pre DLCs w/ Barraskewda wrecking havoc. To be fair, rain is very balanced this gen, and if you REALLY hate it, just play some weather control (read Ttar, Torkoal, Slowbros, A-Ninetales, really ANYTHING). Even then, Floatzel is the absolute worst swift swim user RN, even crippled barraskewda is better, Basculegion on the other hand is kinda good in rain ngl. I could elaborate further with other mons you said but chose to talk about Floatzel because i see how you can be salty (not exactly w/ reason, pult, for example, is pretty counterable this gen) but Floatzel is literally impossible to hate.

EDIT: Barraskewda isn't better than Floatzel this gen, and Floatzel isn't the worst Sswim user rn.
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Floazel is bad though, needing rain, tera and your main stab killing yourself is far from ideal, especially when stuff can tank hits from it and ko back. Rain isn't just the same without mega Pert.
 
vro suggesting i use pokémon that don’t exist

floatzel is still good, being able to viably run adamant makes it stronger than bascu (339atk vs 323 for jolly bascu iirc) with none of the drawback bascu has in being outpaced by booster valiant/moth/moon, should it run adamant. jolly bascu doesn’t even outspeed scarf meow

call me silly but i don’t think that being able to do things that dracovish could whilst outspeeding everything is very cool, but once again thanks tera ig?

end of the day this isn’t something i’m willing to die on due to rain itself not being the best, to put it mildly
 
Mega Breloom said:
Floazel is bad though, needing rain, tera and your main stab killing yourself is far from ideal, especially when stuff can tank hits from it and ko back. Rain isn't just the same without mega Pert.
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It's not baaaaad, just... Ok, does its thing. And yeah rain w/ mega pert was peak performance, this gen's weather game is very one sided to sun, even if it's arguably balanced
 
tigers jaw said:
vro suggesting i use pokémon that don’t exist

floatzel is still good, being able to viably run adamant makes it stronger than bascu (339atk vs 323 for jolly bascu iirc) with none of the drawback bascu has in being outpaced by booster valiant/moth/moon, should it run adamant. jolly bascu doesn’t even outspeed scarf meow

call me silly but i don’t think that being able to do things that dracovish could whilst outspeeding everything is very cool, but once again thanks tera ig?

end of the day this isn’t something i’m willing to die on due to rain itself not being the best, to put it mildly
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My mistake on listing A-tales. If you really think Floatzel is as broken as peak dracovish you should have no trouble spamming pelipper + floatzel + basculegion w/ support to the top of the ladder right?
 
where did i say that

edit: once again i really am not dying on this hill, i just think the capacity for a pokémon to 2hko the sturdiest of resists whilst outspeeding everything is emblematic of how fucked this gen is, considering it doesn’t make people bat an eye
 
Weather rn is cool. Honestly glad Rain and Sun are both viable. I know Wake in sun is a dumb Mon (I’d actually say it’s more problematic than Zama) but it’s great to have multiple play styles viable in OU. I like being able to cue Sun, Rain, Trick Room, and so on. It’s fun not being pigeon holed like in Sword and Shield.

I honestly am very happy new mons like Basculegion, Wake, and Ursaluna gave life to archetypes that needed it. It makes the tier a better place imo when diverse stuff like this exists. Rn you can cue stall, BO, HO, rain, Sun, trick room BO, Screens HO, and more. The tier is not on a perfect state but tbh I love this meta.

Just give me Tera at team preview and I think we are golden ^_^
 
tigers jaw said:
where did i say that

edit: once again i really am not dying on this hill, i just think the capacity for a pokémon to 2hko the sturdiest of resists whilst outspeeding everything is emblematic of how fucked this gen is, considering it doesn’t make people bat an eye
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Fair
 
5camp said:
My impression was that quickbans were for when something new was introduced that was immediately obviously problematic, and performing a quickban was a way to save time.

Volcarona was in the tier for over 6 months without any changes to its moves or mechanics. By definition it was not a new introduction. Whether it is too much for the tier is irrelevant right now: Nothing that was in a tier for this long without any changes to it should be subject of a quickban.

That's really all there is to it. I'm kinda shocked that this wasn't already the case. You really should undo the Volcarona quickban and recognise either you made a big mistake, or you completely misread the room on what the community viewed as the purpose of quickbans
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ill break this down paragraph one by one, and with relevant examples

5camp said:
My impression was that quickbans were for when something new was introduced that was immediately obviously problematic, and performing a quickban was a way to save time.
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Quickbans do not need to happen immediately. Looking at the tier I main, SV AAA, quickbans have happened as and when needed. Noivern and OPulse were in the tier for a long time, yet were only banned around 3 months in. Sure, FurScales era but those two were given nearly a month although they were clearly broken. Quickbans have never needed to be immediate, nor will they ever need.

5camp said:
Volcarona was in the tier for over 6 months without any changes to its moves or mechanics. By definition it was not a new introduction. Whether it is too much for the tier is irrelevant right now: Nothing that was in a tier for this long without any changes to it should be subject of a quickban.
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Lets just say we have 5 bags of money on the floor. One has 1k, another 2k, another 3k and so forth. Obviously, you would go for the bag worth the most money right? Now lets use that analogy for tiering, where value = brokenness / uncompetitiveness of a and bag = banworthy subject. The OU council were removing the more broken things like Shed Tail from the tier.

5camp said:
You really should undo the Volcarona quickban and recognise either you made a big mistake, or you completely misread the room on what the community viewed as the purpose of quickbans
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lol search up tiering policy
 
I'm very pleased to see volcarona get the boot. It's been a thorn in everyone's side for team building purposes for ages, and I'm confident that the council will retest if metagame changes necessitate that.

It's also great to see quick movement from the council to address issues related to the reintroduced mons and particularly the shoddy communication from TPC/ILCA about the exact dates of HOME updates. I think it's important to point out that these quick bans are helping to make the metagame playable quickly and that hasn't always happened with past mid-gen Mon introductions. I think it's pretty clear that this council is proactively trying to continuously improve its process as well which is also great to see.
 
Force Majeure said:
I'm very pleased to see volcarona get the boot. It's been a thorn in everyone's side for team building purposes for ages, and I'm confident that the council will retest if metagame changes necessitate that.

It's also great to see quick movement from the council to address issues related to the reintroduced mons and particularly the shoddy communication from TPC/ILCA about the exact dates of HOME updates. I think it's important to point out that these quick bans are helping to make the metagame playable quickly and that hasn't always happened with past mid-gen Mon introductions. I think it's pretty clear that this council is proactively trying to continuously improve its process as well which is also great to see.
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#freevolc
 
[Ignores the drama and the current suspect]

Wow, despite all the bans, all the new mons running around in this meta are a lil overwhelming! I don't know whats what right now.

I do have my eyes on Galar Slowking and Ursaluna as part of the team but while I do have an idea for Ursaluna, I'm unsure on how to build Glowking, do you guys have any recommendations/experiences to share with this mon?
 
Crimson Chris said:
Are you telling me you don't have an Alolan Ninetails in this Paldean meta?

(Ironically we know she's coming back officially so I wonder if Snow teams will get a boost.)
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Snow teams definitely will get a bit of a boost. Whether or not that makes them good enough in OU… ehhh.. I hope it is but I doubt they’ll be anything more than a gimmick archetype. That said, A-Ninetails is actually decently bulky now lol.
(My dream scenario would be them giving snow warning to Avalugg so we had ice type Torkoal)
Oh also, the one thing I could see that MIGHT make snow viable in OU is A-Ninetails clicking aurora veil then switching to Bax. Bax under aurora veil sounds OBSCENE.
 
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