Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Alternator]

Scald's problem is that there's virtually no drawback to spamming it. 80 BP with a good secondary effect isn't weak; there's plenty of mons that rely on 80 BP moves like Crunch or Iron Head, and a 30% chance to Burn is one of the best secondary effects around. Water is a fine attacking type with no type-based immunities and telegraphed ability immunities, and Scald had distribution of "Yes" so virtually all water types could carry it. Even special attackers that don't care about physical damage being halved don't like the steady chip, and Hex is reasonably common in this meta so it synergizes well with other strategies.

It's almost totally riskless to click, and for how disabling a burn can be, that's not a desirable thing.

 

[sims796]

I see folks saying "you could deal with it", like....how?! It's a water move, it's literally everywhere, hell I wanna say almost as common as Ice Beam on every generic water type. So unless you feel making ones entire team immune to Burn status, how were you supposed to stop it? Covert Cloak for all? It's

I also love Covert Cloak Harterene. I just wanted that out in the universe. It feels like the item was made for her and only her sometimes.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I see folks saying "you could deal with it", like....how?! It's a water move, it's literally everywhere, hell I wanna say almost as common as Ice Beam on every generic water type. So unless you feel making ones entire team immune to Burn status, how were you supposed to stop it? Covert Cloak for all? It's

I also love Covert Cloak Harterene. I just wanted that out in the universe. It feels like the item was made for her and only her sometimes.

Just run pex, Clef, 3 regen mons and a breaker.

 

[sims796]

Cylizar and Bax eating good this gen

 

[Fenghuang]

I see folks saying "you could deal with it", like....how?! It's a water move, it's literally everywhere, hell I wanna say almost as common as Ice Beam on every generic water type. So unless you feel making ones entire team immune to Burn status, how were you supposed to stop it? Covert Cloak for all? It's

I also love Covert Cloak Harterene. I just wanted that out in the universe. It feels like the item was made for her and only her sometimes.

Don't hard switch your strong physical attackers in? Pivot them in or send in a special attacker or if none of that is possible then it a 30% chance, not wholly likely. If you can't beak a bulky water spamming scald on the field then your team is not prepared to handle anything fat.

 

[Fenghuang]

Just run pex, Clef, 3 regen mons and a breaker.

Have you played gen7? A famously offensive gen, with offensive threats like mmawile, mlopunny, mmedichan, katana, scald is just another thing to work around. It isn't and hasn't been overbearing.

 

[furyofyuriy]

Scald's problem is that there's virtually no drawback to spamming it. 80 BP with a good secondary effect isn't weak; there's plenty of mons that rely on 80 BP moves like Crunch or Iron Head, and a 30% chance to Burn is one of the best secondary effects around. Water is a fine attacking type with no type-based immunities and telegraphed ability immunities, and Scald had distribution of "Yes" so virtually all water types could carry it. Even special attackers that don't care about physical damage being halved don't like the steady chip, and Hex is reasonably common in this meta so it synergizes well with other strategies.

It's almost totally riskless to click, and for how disabling a burn can be, that's not a desirable thing.

I would also like to add to this. While there are moves that work similar to Scald (Discharge, Lava Plume, etc.), these moves A) Lack major distribution to Scald's extent and B) have switch in's immune to said status. And while everyone hates on Dire Claw (understandably) and most likely Toxic Chain in the near future, there are still switch in's to these attacks/abilities that can either absorb them or negate a poison/para proc. And while Fire Types are immune to Burn, there are literally few who want to switch into said move and just as many mons who have access to Storm Drain/Water absorb.

Moves like Discharge and Lava Plume at least have the option of a switch in that is immune to the status while resisting the attack (not all, but most). While Scald has no such check that isn't ability based that either A) Resists and has the chance to get Burn and B) at the very least hit for neutral to avoid the Burn.

If your wondering what the point of my post is other than a salty rant, there isn't one. Hated this move since gen 5. I'd be fine with minimal distribution because I think the move would be healthier that way (select water types, pincurchin, Raikou and Emboar for some reason).

 

[sims796]

Don't hard switch your strong physical attackers in? Pivot them in or send in a special attacker or if none of that is possible then it a 30% chance, not wholly likely. If you can't beak a bulky water spamming scald on the field then your team is not prepared to handle anything fat.

That's an awful lot of power for a move seen everywhere, just limiting their swaps while doing decent damage alone is great, and it's a 30% chance being spammed on anything that can swim. It's not like it's chip damage, either. Nor is it limited to fat waters.

I did forget to mention that I was on hiatus during whatever mon that move was on, it just seemed like a bonkers move. I would love to have it now, if only because the move is so good I can get away with sloppy team building

 

[Fenghuang]

That's an awful lot of power for a move seen everywhere, just limiting their swaps while doing decent damage alone is great, and it's a 30% chance being spammed on anything that can swim. It's not like it's chip damage, either. Nor is it limited to fat waters.

I did forget to mention that I was on hiatus during whatever mon that move was on, it just seemed like a bonkers move. I would love to have it now, if only because the move is so good I can get away with sloppy team building

That's true, it's the job of fat to switch in to checks and make progress and then facilitate your sweepers, unless you're playing stall and then it's just the first part. Idk, I get why people find it unfun, but calling it broken or saying it destroys the whole game feels so far outside of what the move actually is and how it actually works.

 

[tigers jaw]

Just run pex, Clef, 3 regen mons and a breaker.

any of the mons i mentioned should be on like 99% of competent teams, as should one of the many breakers in g8. the tier is filled with bulky pivots that can shrug off scald & knock off, & pokémon that punish the pokémon that carry those moves - be that instantly & over time, or directly & indirectly.

you don’t need to dedicate an unreasonable amount of resources to handle a single move carried by only a few pokémon.

 

[KamenOH]

3

it's the job of fat to switch in to checks and make progress

Some teams, like HO and to a lesser extent raw offense, dont run fat mons. Are they screwed for merely choosing not to run a slow, weak-attacking mon? If its their suicide lead it wouldnt matter, but scald isnt just for the first mon. Its a cheap move that every decent wall got and used like it was a cheap commodity, letting it stop otherwise reasonable checks with a strong BP move and a burn on top of it.
Im surprised it wasnt banned in gen 5, given how litigious they were back then.

 

[Fenghuang]

3
Some teams, like HO and to a lesser extent raw offense, dont run fat mons. Are they screwed for merely choosing not to run a slow, weak-attacking mon? If its their suicide lead it wouldnt matter, but scald isnt just for the first mon. Its a cheap move that every decent wall got and used like it was a cheap commodity, letting it stop otherwise reasonable checks with a strong BP move and a burn on top of it.
Im surprised it wasnt banned in gen 5, given how litigious they were back then.

Either get a better way to get your mons in, use special attackers, or sack a mon if you have to (you're playing HO after all). There are ways to get around it, it's not broken.

 

[kosecant]

Either get a better way to get your mons in, use special attackers, or sack a mon if you have to (you're playing HO after all). There are ways to get around it, it's not broken.

The problem is that it can be nigh impossible to play around it without simply getting lucky. For example, if Chomp is my main wall breaker, a Mon that takes neutral damage from scald, I simply can’t send it in on something like pex, a wall that should be scared out by garchomp every single time because it has a chance of getting completely ruined by a 30% burn.

 

[Schpoonman]

any of the mons i mentioned should be on like 99% of competent teams, as should one of the many breakers in g8. the tier is filled with bulky pivots that can shrug off scald & knock off, & pokémon that punish the pokémon that carry those moves - be that instantly & over time, or directly & indirectly.

you don’t need to dedicate an unreasonable amount of resources to handle a single move carried by only a few pokémon.

Dude.

 

[Alternator]

Either get a better way to get your mons in, use special attackers, or sack a mon if you have to (you're playing HO after all). There are ways to get around it, it's not broken.

It doesn't have to be broken and/or banworthy to be undesirable. Scald existing makes physical attackers less desirable, which warps team building; it props up physical attackers who can handle a burn, like Guts mons; and it made Facade see occasional use outside of those Guts mons, just to avoid being completely neutered by a random burn.

 

[pika pal]

Do you want more Cocaine Bear? Because Scald is how you get more Cocaine Bear.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Pikachu-Hoenn @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brick Break
- Wild Charge
- Trailblaze
- Play Rough

252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Pikachu-Hoenn: 130-153 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 450-530 (111.3 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Basculegion: 530-626 (139.1 - 164.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 302-356 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Tera Fairy Pikachu-Hoenn Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 404-476 (108.8 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 264-312 (66.1 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Don't tempt me I'll pikado it
​

On the topic of Scald/Toxic - I agree with sims796 that distribution is key here and that both of those moves are manageable as long everything doesn't randomly get them. Limited distribution for those moves is the way to go, as it makes the Pokemon who get them feel like they have an extra dimension to them, rather than simply being two moves that almost anything can get that make them annoying tech options to watch out for. We've gotta be careful though... discourse has the potential to become rather... toxic, and the heated conversations are reaching... scalding temperatures

View attachment 528867​

Also, thank you to everyone for the kind words about the Calyrex post! It was a lot of fun to work on and to echo the sentiments of users like artificialdeath the ability to make creative sets viably work is my favorite part of Tera - I haven't had this much overall fun in an OU metagame since the days of running Dry Skin Parasect during Gen 5's weather wars.

The only differences between Cap Pikachu and normal Pikachu is normal Pikachu has Endeavor and can hold Eviolite. Cap Pikachu is outclassed tbh. Good set for regular pika tho

 

[Magcargo]

Dude.

Tbf if he is talking about Scald, the main users last gen were Pex and the Slowtwins. Maybe a rogue Keldeo here and there. Tapu Fini could also use it, but Misty Terrain would block its effect for a time. I didn't know that Dragapult even learned the move until recently, so that should illustrate how often I saw it use it lmao.

If he's talking about Knock Off and Toxic on the other hand, then we've got a problem.

Ngl, i didn't really use Toxapex last generation since it felt really bad to use, but it was a very centralizing force in the builder. One Chad came up with creative ideas like Metronome Sub Primarina, and using Guts Heracross / Conkeldurr to get around it. Others ran tricks like Sticky barb trick Clef to beat it. Perhaps that's why Scald was so hated.

 

[furyofyuriy]

any of the mons i mentioned should be on like 99% of competent teams, as should one of the many breakers in g8. the tier is filled with bulky pivots that can shrug off scald & knock off, & pokémon that punish the pokémon that carry those moves - be that instantly & over time, or directly & indirectly.

you don’t need to dedicate an unreasonable amount of resources to handle a single move carried by only a few pokémon.

85 Fully evolved/non evolving pokemon learn scald. 86 if you count Galar Corsula since that is a meta relevant pokemon in the past. Assuming all fully evolved gen 9 mons that are water type get scald in the future DLC, that's an additional 11 mons, 12 if you count the 2 different Basculegions. Fortunately, most of those are physical attackers and 2 of them are banned to Ubers, but Walking Wake would love to be able to slap Scald on to further punish switches.

Are all of these user viable in OU, or special attackers to begin with. No, but the move is essentially water type Knock off in the sense that it can gain value even if the user can't deal much damage. And speaking of Knock off, that move was so spam able even Cryoganal had access to it.

For context, Discharge and Lava Plume combined have the JUST over half the number of scald users combined that are fully evolved/non evolving, not counting the various rotoms, toxtricity forms, and Thunderous. Moves like Scald are great on Mons that have trouble finding a 4th coverage move because the prospect of crippling a physical attacker permanently can be too good to pass up.

I want to clarify that I think the move as a concept is fine, but the distribution it got was overall unhealthy. If a limited pool of mons were to have access to the move this gen, just as they do Toxic, Knock off, and other powerful moves of the sort, that would be fine. But I also don't want to pretend that half the reason Stall has been so powerful these last few gens was because mass distributed Scald allowed for much greater longevity to walls due to that 30% chance.

 

[Fenghuang]

The problem is that it can be nigh impossible to play around it without simply getting lucky. For example, if Chomp is my main wall breaker, a Mon that takes neutral damage from scald, I simply can’t send it in on something like pex, a wall that should be scared out by garchomp every single time because it has a chance of getting completely ruined by a 30% burn.

85 Fully evolved/non evolving pokemon learn scald. 86 if you count Galar Corsula since that is a meta relevant pokemon in the past. Assuming all fully evolved gen 9 mons that are water type get scald in the future DLC, that's an additional 11 mons, 12 if you count the 2 different Basculegions. Fortunately, most of those are physical attackers and 2 of them are banned to Ubers, but Walking Wake would love to be able to slap Scald on to further punish switches.

Are all of these user viable in OU, or special attackers to begin with. No, but the move is essentially water type Knock off in the sense that it can gain value even if the user can't deal much damage. And speaking of Knock off, that move was so spam able even Cryoganal had access to it.

For context, Discharge and Lava Plume combined have the JUST over half the number of scald users combined that are fully evolved/non evolving, not counting the various rotoms, toxtricity forms, and Thunderous. Moves like Scald are great on Mons that have trouble finding a 4th coverage move because the prospect of crippling a physical attacker permanently can be too good to pass up.

I want to clarify that I think the move as a concept is fine, but the distribution it got was overall unhealthy. If a limited pool of mons were to have access to the move this gen, just as they do Toxic, Knock off, and other powerful moves of the sort, that would be fine. But I also don't want to pretend that half the reason Stall has been so powerful these last few gens was because mass distributed Scald allowed for much greater longevity to walls due to that 30% chance.

Stall has much greater longevity mostly because of regenerator mons. Scald is not the reason why stall is strong.

 

[Return to Zero]

Stall has much greater longevity mostly because of regenerator mons. Scald is not the reason why stall is strong.

Scald is a reason stall is so strong.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect here. Your posts seem to mostly be focusing on the point that Scald by itself is not the strongest tool its users or team styles have. The point most others are making, though, is that Scald is disproportionately powerful for how easy it is to use. The move has very wide distribution (This point has been exhaustively shown by several people here already so I don't particularly feel the need to show it further). A 30% chance to Burn on it means that if you attempt to switch into its user with a physically attacking mon, there is a 30% chance you kneecap that mon for the rest of the game, regardless of how many other valid plays there are. It's got 80 BP, which while not exceptionally strong is reasonably powerful and the same BP as stuff like Crunch or Iron Head. It's a Water type move, meaning not only that nothing is immune to it except Storm Drain/Water Absorb/etc users, Fire types who are immune to Burn are weak to Water damage with extremely rare exceptions and therefore cannot reliably switch in to it.

All of this combined means that clicking Scald is easy, very effective, and almost completely riskless in every situation. The move is uncompetitive (with its formerly wide distribution at least) because there's virtually no opportunity cost and still has a very good reward on proc. There's absolutely no risk management involved. It's frustrating for a move that's on almost every Water type that can learn TMs to be capable of putting you in a situation where you have very limited RNG-based responses to it and the user has a very threatening tool that there's very rarely a downside to thoughtlessly using. That's the problem with Scald.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Just had the dumbest idea ever.

Persian-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/0
Sassy Nature
- Foul Play
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Body Slam
foul play for damage, U-turn for pivoting, body slam to fish for par, fake out for chip (checking for leftovers, rocky helmet, etc.). AV boosts SPD, Fur Coat boosts DEF, overall somewhat bulky.
Is this good? Not at all. But can it get the jump on unsuspecting players? Likely. Could this work in a lower tier, maybe RU? I believe so. Persian can just barely survive a super effective max CC from Sneasler. Not bad.
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 282-332 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Don’t use this. Or do. I don’t really care.

 

[Fenghuang]

Scald is a reason stall is so strong.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect here. Your posts seem to mostly be focusing on the point that Scald by itself is not the strongest tool its users or team styles have. The point most others are making, though, is that Scald is disproportionately powerful for how easy it is to use. The move has very wide distribution (This point has been exhaustively shown by several people here already so I don't particularly feel the need to show it further). A 30% chance to Burn on it means that if you attempt to switch into its user with a physically attacking mon, there is a 30% chance you kneecap that mon for the rest of the game, regardless of how many other valid plays there are. It's got 80 BP, which while not exceptionally strong is reasonably powerful and the same BP as stuff like Crunch or Iron Head. It's a Water type move, meaning not only that nothing is immune to it except Storm Drain/Water Absorb/etc users, Fire types who are immune to Burn are weak to Water damage with extremely rare exceptions and therefore cannot reliably switch in to it.

Or you can send in a defensive Mon who doesn't need high attack, or a special attacker, or physical attacker with guts, etc etc etc. Clicking a strong move is not like, anti-competitive. Lots of offensive mons have strong tools that are hard to switch in to if you don't have the right counters, but for some reason this is a terrible blight on the meta when it's scald.

 

[furyofyuriy]

Stall has much greater longevity mostly because of regenerator mons. Scald is not the reason why stall is strong.

Of the 17 mons with access to Regenerator, 10 are currently in the this gen and arguable the strongest of the bunch, bar Reuniclus. We even got Cyclizar and Klawf (yes Klawf has Regenerator). And yet Stall is on the decline. While the nerf to recovery moves certainly didn't help AND the lack of Toxic spammers decreased overall, the true icing on the cake to stalls decline is the fact that of the 10 regenerators, 6 all had access to and used Scald. Base Slowking sometimes opts not to run a water move these days solely because that move isn't Scald, despite having access to Surf and Hydro Pump. The reason being is that these mons THRIVE off spamming Scald, Toxic, or Spore (Amoongus). Keep in mind that in all prior generations, Toxapex would commonly stay in on Landorus solely to fish for s Scald burn, and if it didn't get it would switch out and try again.

Or you can send in a defensive Mon who doesn't need high attack, or a special attacker, or physical attacker with guts, etc etc etc. Clicking a strong move is not like, anti-competitive. Lots of offensive mons have strong tools that are hard to switch in to if you don't have the right counters, but for some reason this is a terrible blight on the meta when it's scald.

I'm not gonna say that scald is anti-competitive, but it's mass distribution is/was a major problem. Even if the mon you switched in was a defensive special attacker, Burn chip negates leftovers. Yes lots of mons have strong tools, as do defensive mons. Sneasler has Dire Claw and doesn't even always use it. But when you see a Sneasler in team preview, you have to respect that it MIGHT Dire Claw. Likewise with Spore users. But then you look at Scald, in which nearly EVERY water type has access too... thats more than just a handful of users. Furthermore, they didn't even have to be strong users to use it. Sure Choice Specs Raikou could use it to kill off Ground types, but arguably the more deadly users of Scald were the mons that could spam it like Pex, Vaporeon, Suicune, and Quag to name a few. Death by 1000 cuts is still death, especially if the Burned mon in question can't damage the Scald user back to outmatch their healing.

 

[Return to Zero]

Or you can send in a defensive Mon who doesn't need high attack, or a special attacker, or physical attacker with guts, etc etc etc. Clicking a strong move is not like, anti-competitive. Lots of offensive mons have strong tools that are hard to switch in to if you don't have the right counters, but for some reason this is a terrible blight on the meta when it's scald.

For as long as you continue to miss the point, that Scald is a move which there is rarely ever a downside to using and has a combination of traits that make it much more powerful than this ease of use should reasonably allow, you are going to keep this conversation moving in circles. Defensive mons might be Water weak and will still suffer if they get Burn damage. Special attackers or Guts users can be Water weak or taken out by the 80 BP. Hell, the best Guts user in OU right now is a Ground type that doesn't want to eat double damage from an 80 BP move and get put in KO range. Scald isn't a move with consistent and easy answers. And sure, there are other moves that can exert similar pressure like Discharge or just really strong ones that can eat most switch-ins, but they aren't on upwards on 80 fully evolved mons, some of which are consistent OU performers and have other strong attributes they can combine with Scald, and some of which don't need a Special Attack stat in order to make Scald valuable to them because of the Burn chance.