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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.
- Thread starter xcfrisco
- Start date
- Status
So... Can we ban Garchomp now? Then I could remove Ice Beam from half my team.
You'd think after 9, almost 10 pages of this we'd agree on something.
I don't care either way. It would be easier to play without Garchomp, but I never had trouble with him.
You'd think after 9, almost 10 pages of this we'd agree on something.
I don't care either way. It would be easier to play without Garchomp, but I never had trouble with him.
IMO Garchomp should be OU despite everything posted here it's not that game breaking. Even without Chomp you should still carry Ice Moves on your team Blue Harvest or else Sala will come in and have fun with you. Actually I don't even have any ice moves on my team but I don't really have problems with Chomp or any other dragon in fact. I would agree if there were an option here saying that there be a hax item clause now that would stop people from using SubPowder Chomp which is kinda cheap but I still have no problems with it if they don't do the clause.
I'm neutral. I've been doing fine vs Garchomps, but I don't use them so it doesn't matter to me if they're banned. It would make my life easier though.
@ The Rider
My team has 5 ice moves on it. With Garchomp gone, the pressure would be off, and I would only need one or two.
Are you using a hail team?
Okay... from several pages back...
Meh, when an argument relies on a hax that happens 20% of the time, it ain't so solid.
Swampert is 2-hit KOed with Crunch if the 20% hax counts (which counts just as much as the 20% evasion hax from Sand Veil). Hippowdon is 2-hit KOed by Boah Ice Beam (which counts as much as 2-hit KOed by ChainChomp Draco Meteor), and Skarm is OHKOed by Fire Blast or T-Bolt (which counts just as much as ChainChomp Fire Blast)
Meh, when an argument relies on a hax that happens 20% of the time, it ain't so solid.
I do. I run Blizzard on 5 of my team members and Ice Punch on my 6th. Ice friggen rocks. :-) I doubt my strategy will change with Garchomp away however, because he was very easily delt with once my Stallrein strategy begins, and Ice is a perfect combo on every member of my team.
Nope.
No, they aren't all Ice Beam.
Some are physical. They are all on for legitiment coverage reasons. Ground / Ice, Electric / Ice, blah... blah... blah...
@ Dragontamer
With SD EVs and Leftovers Ice Beam is a 3HKO on Hippowdon.
Although just barely.
Would you mind sharing your team? I'm curious as to how you can have 5 ice moves on one team, and not have a crappy type coverage.
![Mia [old]](/forums/data/avatars/m/17/17136.jpg?1387813379){kind=avatar}
x-act did some work on this I believe where the same conclusion was found.
In which case... isn't Hippowdon 2-hit KOing Tyranitar? Thus, Hippo still dies to T-Tar...
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34762
I'm writing up this guide which focuses on the Hail team. Ice / Ground and Ice / Electric have nearly perfect coverage and complement each other. The hard one is Ice / Fire for those steels (Slowbro/king is good... Tyranitar would be good if you aren't on a hail team). If you can manage Ice / Ground / Fire, that is even better (Tyranitar, D-Nite... and guys like Rhyperior who have movepools too big for their own good). If you don't feel like doing an Ice Attack, just slap on a standard fire pokemon (heatran, infernape, etc. etc.)
I'm back from work and looks like my thread had largely gone to shit. Rofl, at least the first post is pretty solid.
Anyway, I think everyone here is missing my argument completely. I'm not saying that Garchomp is Uber just because he has no counters. Nor am I saying Garchomp is Uber just because a lot of stat points are required to revenge kill him. Nor am I saying that Garchomp is Uber just because of Sand Veil.
I'm saying Garchomp is BROKEN because of all THREE of those things put together. I am more than aware that a lot a pokemon satisfy points 1 and 2 of my argument, but they don't have Sand Veil hax garbage and are inferior to Garchomp on A TON of levels. I am also aware that Gliscor is pretty identical to Garchomp from the Sand Veil perspective, but his stats/movepool/STAB/a lot of reasons aren't nearly equal/rival to garchomp's at all. Most other Sand Veil pokemon suck and AREN'T BROKEN. Gliscor can't do jack shit to Skarmory when it gets whirlwinded after an SD.
My argument is that Garchomp is BROKEN. Not that he's uncounterable, please, I know countless of pokemon don't have just "one counter", but all those other pokemon have reasons that make the SIGNIFICANTLY inferior to Garchomp when it comes to winning games for you.
Please take my entire argument into account from now on. And can people PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop posting garbage messages that add nothing to my thread. Actually, I think it would be a great idea to completely ignore posts of very little value. It'll prevent people from posting circular logic that goes nowhere.
Ninja edit: I cleaned up my first post of spell check errors, I hope its easier to read now
Anyway, I think everyone here is missing my argument completely. I'm not saying that Garchomp is Uber just because he has no counters. Nor am I saying Garchomp is Uber just because a lot of stat points are required to revenge kill him. Nor am I saying that Garchomp is Uber just because of Sand Veil.
I'm saying Garchomp is BROKEN because of all THREE of those things put together. I am more than aware that a lot a pokemon satisfy points 1 and 2 of my argument, but they don't have Sand Veil hax garbage and are inferior to Garchomp on A TON of levels. I am also aware that Gliscor is pretty identical to Garchomp from the Sand Veil perspective, but his stats/movepool/STAB/a lot of reasons aren't nearly equal/rival to garchomp's at all. Most other Sand Veil pokemon suck and AREN'T BROKEN. Gliscor can't do jack shit to Skarmory when it gets whirlwinded after an SD.
My argument is that Garchomp is BROKEN. Not that he's uncounterable, please, I know countless of pokemon don't have just "one counter", but all those other pokemon have reasons that make the SIGNIFICANTLY inferior to Garchomp when it comes to winning games for you.
Please take my entire argument into account from now on. And can people PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop posting garbage messages that add nothing to my thread. Actually, I think it would be a great idea to completely ignore posts of very little value. It'll prevent people from posting circular logic that goes nowhere.
Ninja edit: I cleaned up my first post of spell check errors, I hope its easier to read now
I think this paragraph should get the "Just because it sucks in uberplay, it does not mean it belongs in OU" treatment. I said essentially the same thing (in fewer words lol) in the previous topic but it seems people still like to focus on one aspect of the argument and claim X Pokemon also has that quality, blah, blah, blah, therefore Garchomp isn't uber.
Although it should be in another / new thread, how does one counter garchomp? Say, something like +2 attack (one swords dance) as the minimum to counter, and jolly scarfed as the minimum speed. (although the latter isn't harder to counter, you just need more defenses)
Is there some good starmie set that gets a 2HKO on garchomp, while something like a 3HKO (I know) from a 2+ dragon claw?
Or a great cress movepool that doesn't get crippled? Help!
Garchomp my be broken, but he's still counterable.
Is there some good starmie set that gets a 2HKO on garchomp, while something like a 3HKO (I know) from a 2+ dragon claw?
Or a great cress movepool that doesn't get crippled? Help!
Garchomp my be broken, but he's still counterable.
The thing is, Sand Veil isn't really as bad as you seem to make it out to be. 20% hax are everywhere in this metagame, and focusing just on Sand Veil ignores how common it is. Air Slash Togekiss can 3-hit KO Blissey with 1 Nasty Plot and a Sharp Beak. Assuming Blissey switches in on the NP, Togekiss has a 21% chance of beating Blissey (Aura Sphere on the KO turn helps)
More applicable applications include Tyranitar's Crunch, which also has a 20% chance of killing off potential Counters (2-hit KOing Swampert). DD Gyarados's Waterfall flinches 20% of the time. Weavile Ice Punch freezes Skarmory 19% of the time, Zapdos gains all stats 19% of the time from AncientPower.
Hax happen, and Garchomp's primary attacks don't got those hax (Earthquake and Outrage are devoid of hax). When you look at other pokemon for when these hax happen, you can't just look at the ability, but common attacks that they'd do. And when we look at all possible hax that can likely happen over the course of two turns for that counter (Sand Veil takes 2 turns. One for the switch, the 2nd for the opponent actually trying to hit you), the number of pokemon satisfying all 3 of your conditions grow.
Hippowdon only beats CB and CS Garchomp but practically cant have any previous damage to beat the CB version. It loses to ChainChomp and all it does is Roar out SDchomp while taking a nasty SDquake.
I'll agree that Hippowdon+insert back-up in case of SD or Chain chomp is probably the most effective way of dealing with Garchomp. Just hope your moves don't miss in Sandstorm :/
Hmmm, you bring up a solid point. Yet, I think all the pokemon you listed have a lot more means of being taken care of (being killed) than Garchomp and aren't as threatening. This is because of their infereior STAB/moveslot covereage which allows them to get walled/stopped easier.
I consider Gyarados the only pokemon on your list that is difficult to stop after set-up+hax (Togekiss and Tyranitar's problem is that theyre too slow). Yet, Gyarados' main problems are being able to constantly switch-in (SR) + moveslot syndrome (DD,Waterfall,taunt,?)
You have to scout the set first.
Boah doesn't run Tbolt anymore, and DD taunt tar is uncommon b/c it is outclassed by Gyarados. The most common ttar sets are Ice Beam/Boah, Life orb Mix Tar, and CBTar. Skarm counters the first set, and comes in on anything but Stone Edge vs the last set. Thats a good enough counter for me.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24931
Tyranitar has 1 Def. Tier and 1 Sp. Def Tier higher than Garchomp. Factor in the Sp. Def boost from Sandstorm, and you've got a ~5+ Sp. Def tier difference. (5 tiers is similar to the difference between a Jirachi and a Lucario)
As bulky as Garchomp is, Tyranitar is cleary much more bulky. I wouldn't count him out. Additionally, Tyranitar's type coverage extends much further than Garchomp due to its mixed stats. Boah is all I need to point out in this regards.
EDIT: No... I don't. Here is the best possible type coverage in the game:
14-type Expert-Belt Tyranitar:
Focus Punch / Brick Break
Ice Beam / Avalanche / Ice Fang
Earthquake
Dark Pulse / Crunch
Hits Normal, Fire, Electric, Grass, Ice, Poison, Ground, Flying, Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, and Steel super-effective.
Bulky Togekiss is 3-hit KOed by non-specs Gengar T-Bolt. Trust me, its quite a bit more bulky than you imagine. Togekiss gets Nasty Plot + Shadow Ball / Aura Sphere, and is one of the strongest Sp. Attackers to get this PERFECT attack combo. (Literally, resisted by no one). A STAB set of Flying / Fighting is resisted by Zapdos and Rotom, who are much more easily dispatched than Skarmory and Bronzong.
I accept that speed is an issue with both Togekiss and Tyranitar, but they certainly have their advantages over Garchomp in this discussion (Togekiss is significantly haxxier. Tyranitar has much bigger defenses and mixed sweeper stats)
Gyarados you accepted already, but just a note to everyone else: Gyarados requires more Sp. Atk to kill with T-bolt than Garchomp does with Ice Beam. He hits 1 tier higher on the Sp. Def tiers. If a Bolt/Beamer aims to kill both Gyarados and Garchomp, it has to aim at Gyarados's Stats, and not Garchomp's.
Solid points again, but I don't consider these pokemon broken because of their many weaknesses in the metagame. Togekiss and Gyarados are really bulky, but Stealth Rock is such a downer when they go for the clean sweep. Rapid Spin is almost a neccessity or else the other trainer only has to do its calculations for these pokemon at 75% health. Paralysis also rains on Gyarados' parade far too easily and Togekiss with only Fight/Ghost gets walled by Blissey cause of no hax and wishes he had STAB on fight move with Fight/Flying .
Tyranitar, as I stated in the very end of my thread, is the only other pokemon that I consider debateable in regards of being broken or not. I think Tyranitar biggest liability, and best argument against being broken, is his "crap" tryping. He's weak to A LOT of common moves because Rock is a terrible defensive type. Water, Grass, Bug, Ground, Steel, and x4 Fighting weak really help in bringing down the mighty Tyranitar (this means practically every competetive pokemon is more than capable of doing >50% damage to him). Plus, he's ass slow, meaning that a lot of pokemon are gonna get in a blow against Tar before he will.
I think the Sp.Def boost is the only reason I (and most people) considered Tar Uber when D/P first started. This just means that bringing him down with unStab'd Special moves becomes really hard.
Garchomp is better than all these pokemon because it has all the pro's of these pokemon with hardly any of the cons.
Paralysis? Gyarados?
What happened to Taunt? Garchomp can be paralysed with Body Slam just like Gyarados... but T-Wave is stopped just as quickly as Taunt is needed.
And btw: I have an older set (that I call Togebliss) that kills both non-CM versions of Cresselia and Blissey with Nasty Plot Aura Sphere / Shadow Ball. Togebliss's Sub prevents status and is strong enough that both Cresselia and Blissey can't break it with Bolt/Beam. Cressey Charge Beam requires 2 boosts to break the Sub. Roost or BP to fill out the set. This set ain't so useful in the current offensive metagame, but trust me, I have my experience of killing many Blisseys with my Togekiss. You don't need Flinch-hax to do it.
Garchomp's weakness is simply Ice Attacks. Unlike Gyarados's weakness to electric, there is virtually no down-side to using an Ice Attack. No pokemon are immune, and the worst are 4x resists from pokemon with typing issues (Water / Ice, Water / Steel, Fire / Steel). No pokemon is going to pop up and gain a 25% boost in health, or a 50% boost in speed.
A pokemon aiming to KO Garchomp can always do so. Blissey can never guarentee a OHKO Gyarados with T-Bolt, but can OHKO Garchomp on the switch-in with the stats you listed in the first post.
You cannot just simply list one pokemon's disadvantage over another pokemon's disadvantage and then conclude "hardly any of the cons". The trade-off of Stealth Rocks for Togekiss and Gyarados is Toxic Spikes for Garchomp, which is key in my team's use in eliminating him (Garchomp can never hurt Stallrein more than 75%, allowing him to Sub/Protect Garchomp to his Toxic-Spikes + hail doom. I cannot do that to Togekiss or Gyarados, who are significantly more dangerous to my teams personally) Lower Sp. Def than Gyarados makes him a target for the ever-present Blissey, and Ice Beam is overall more reliable than T-Bolt.
EDIT: Again, I personally run a hail team. 5 Pokemon have an Ice attack, and Walrein who uses Surf... can easily deal with Garchomp. Garchomp never faces a safe switch-in on my team, potentially losing to every single one of my pokemon on the switch-in. Hail is so awesome that even Rhyperior can guarentee a OHKO Garchomp with Blizzard.
Well, at least the OP has made a good argument, as far as starting the topic with at least SOME reasons. Gawd.
Anyways, before I start my homework, I just want to make a couple of points.
Alright first off, remember that we unbanned Deoxys-S, which was an Uber. I know that, to some of you, that means nothing at all, but to me it means something. Many people don't realize that he does overcentralize the metagame. It's not like said move Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch are commonly seen, and if it hits Super Effective on you (which it will most of the said time), you're either going to be OHKO'd or 2HKO'd. The exceptions come to a really, REALLY Special Defensive Cresselia and Steel / Psychic types, but remember that the Steel / Psychic types still lose to Fire Punch. I think the only "safe" counter would be Spiritomb. And of course, let's not forget that Deoxys-S outspeeds positive natured 130s without any EV investment and a neutral nature. If that's not scary, then I don't know what is.
And so, since that started, then we decide that one Pokemon is now, not even 2 months later, that a Pokemon is overcentralizing the metagame that has been in that said metagame for almost a year? I almost want to say that there might be some screws loose somewhere. Granted, Sand Veil is an ability that is somewhat broken, but remember that hax just "exists" in Pokemon. Think of it like this: in Gallade's counters, it states this:
What actually scares me the most of ANY Garchomps is Swords Dance + Outrage in the late game with a Yache Berry attatched. Many people don't realize that, since many think "oh it's a Scarf user, almost for sure" or that he carries Swords Dance plus Dragon Claw. This is where Cresselia is "fucked", being borderline dead and Ice Beam won't OHKO even if she chooses Modest since that Yache Berry will prevent that.
And may though you don't accept it, but many Pokemon have very few to almost no counters at all. Think of it like this: Gengar's only "safe" counter is Spiritomb. Lucario with Hidden Power Ice only really loses against Weezing, Spiritomb, and Cresselia (with Crunch, he loses to Weezing and Gliscor, but Spiritomb can still take a Swords Dance + Life Orb Crunch and still burn Lucario), and then the fact that Aura Sphere hurts many Pokemon on the Specs set, even pushing over 40% on Gliscor. Tyranitar is a Pokemon that was discussed as "BL-Uber" before, since Tyranitar is still bulky and even more bulky thanks to that Sandstorm. A x4 weakness to Fighting hurts, but that doesn't stop him from being used. Of course, Dragontamer discussed that many of Tyranitar's counters can still lose if they aren't carefully putting EVs in certain places or repeatingly switching back and forth without recovering (in the case of Swampert). MixTar can really put dents on any switch-in, possibly 2HKOing or OHKOing many Pokemon with little worries (but in a sense, he fears Hippowdon a bit more since he has to use a -Defense nature).
Remember when Rhyperior was a god? If you didn't use him as a physical wall, good job. A move coming from him always puts a switch-in in danger, even Bronzong who hates Megahorn. Many think he's too slow, but when I used Thunder Wave on Blissey and Body Slam on a Dusknoir, it was enough to do the job.
One thing to facter as well: Gyarados forced Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Electric a lot, how is that not overcentralizing? All I'm saying is is that if we're factoring that we're forced to run one move on a certain Pokemon, than this should be factored too.
I'm not for or against Garchomp being Uber. As much as I like Garchomp, I hate facing him as well since that Speed really puts a hurt on many Pokemon. When I have to use Blissey as a last-resort effort to take down a Swords Dance-less Garchomp, that's a bit scary (and I'm talking about as a very last resort). I just want to throw some things in here for people to think about.
Anyways, before I start my homework, I just want to make a couple of points.
Alright first off, remember that we unbanned Deoxys-S, which was an Uber. I know that, to some of you, that means nothing at all, but to me it means something. Many people don't realize that he does overcentralize the metagame. It's not like said move Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch are commonly seen, and if it hits Super Effective on you (which it will most of the said time), you're either going to be OHKO'd or 2HKO'd. The exceptions come to a really, REALLY Special Defensive Cresselia and Steel / Psychic types, but remember that the Steel / Psychic types still lose to Fire Punch. I think the only "safe" counter would be Spiritomb. And of course, let's not forget that Deoxys-S outspeeds positive natured 130s without any EV investment and a neutral nature. If that's not scary, then I don't know what is.
And so, since that started, then we decide that one Pokemon is now, not even 2 months later, that a Pokemon is overcentralizing the metagame that has been in that said metagame for almost a year? I almost want to say that there might be some screws loose somewhere. Granted, Sand Veil is an ability that is somewhat broken, but remember that hax just "exists" in Pokemon. Think of it like this: in Gallade's counters, it states this:
See? Hax is just something you have to accept, sadly. Togekiss is even worse than Garchomp as far as hax goes IMO because Togekiss can actually stop many, MANY Pokemon with little to no effort, and is also bulky, as Dragontamer has pointed out. And since Aura Sphere and Air Slash is only resisted by Zapdos, Togekiss can freely carry Roost and Nasty Plot and still barely worry, because if Zapdos is paralyzed, Togekiss has a chance of beating Zapdos with just Air Slash (though make a note, that I would never EVER try this stunt at all). Garchomp is bulky, yes, but it's not like it's impossible to stop. Remember, there are many Choice Scarf Pokemon nowadays, and I'd like to state that I've carried Scarf Gengar and have successfully stopped Garchomps well. Once they're locked onto Outrage, they're climbing to their own demise. Gliscor is also a good option that I had on my team, though Outrage does take a slight bigger chunk than Skarmory takes (compare around a 10 - 15% difference). ChainChomp was always scary, but that just makes Cresselia's job easier.Gallade Counters said:
What actually scares me the most of ANY Garchomps is Swords Dance + Outrage in the late game with a Yache Berry attatched. Many people don't realize that, since many think "oh it's a Scarf user, almost for sure" or that he carries Swords Dance plus Dragon Claw. This is where Cresselia is "fucked", being borderline dead and Ice Beam won't OHKO even if she chooses Modest since that Yache Berry will prevent that.
And may though you don't accept it, but many Pokemon have very few to almost no counters at all. Think of it like this: Gengar's only "safe" counter is Spiritomb. Lucario with Hidden Power Ice only really loses against Weezing, Spiritomb, and Cresselia (with Crunch, he loses to Weezing and Gliscor, but Spiritomb can still take a Swords Dance + Life Orb Crunch and still burn Lucario), and then the fact that Aura Sphere hurts many Pokemon on the Specs set, even pushing over 40% on Gliscor. Tyranitar is a Pokemon that was discussed as "BL-Uber" before, since Tyranitar is still bulky and even more bulky thanks to that Sandstorm. A x4 weakness to Fighting hurts, but that doesn't stop him from being used. Of course, Dragontamer discussed that many of Tyranitar's counters can still lose if they aren't carefully putting EVs in certain places or repeatingly switching back and forth without recovering (in the case of Swampert). MixTar can really put dents on any switch-in, possibly 2HKOing or OHKOing many Pokemon with little worries (but in a sense, he fears Hippowdon a bit more since he has to use a -Defense nature).
Remember when Rhyperior was a god? If you didn't use him as a physical wall, good job. A move coming from him always puts a switch-in in danger, even Bronzong who hates Megahorn. Many think he's too slow, but when I used Thunder Wave on Blissey and Body Slam on a Dusknoir, it was enough to do the job.
One thing to facter as well: Gyarados forced Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Electric a lot, how is that not overcentralizing? All I'm saying is is that if we're factoring that we're forced to run one move on a certain Pokemon, than this should be factored too.
I'm not for or against Garchomp being Uber. As much as I like Garchomp, I hate facing him as well since that Speed really puts a hurt on many Pokemon. When I have to use Blissey as a last-resort effort to take down a Swords Dance-less Garchomp, that's a bit scary (and I'm talking about as a very last resort). I just want to throw some things in here for people to think about.
Sorry for some of my faulty arguments (i'm gonna pass out after this post) but let me say this one last thing about togekiss.
It runs into ass slow syndrome and is weak to Ice, Electric, Rock and loses its Fight resist cause of Normal-typing. This is why Togekiss isn't sweeping most teams anytime soon. Almost all faster pokemon wont even have to worry about getting haxed to death, and if Togekiss wants to use T-wave, it has to give up Sub or Roost (NP, 2 attacks, ?) which impend on its ability to be durable or avoid status.
Garchomp's saving grace about Sand Veil is that most faster pokemon, if they miss, are about to get raped by its amazing STAB moves.
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