Thanks for posting Xcfrisco. Remember, I'm neutral about this though, I'm just adding points. First off, I do understand what you meant about your first post, on how he is threatening with not only Sand Veil hax on your side, but the fact that Swords Dance + 2 reliable STABs tear through teams. I will add that I hate Scarfchomp, because I see it as something that's easy to wall, but a Swords Dance + Outrage Garchomp with Yache Berry is hard to stop. One kid ran Sandstorm when
I DIDN'T, let me set up all three Swords Dances, and whines because he missed with Bullet Punch on his Metagross (which didn't matter anyways because I was at full health). I will admit that Sand Veil does help his chances of getting a Swords Dance though, it's quite scary in fact.
Xcfrisco said:
I think you're missing my argument. I am saying that Garchomp should be banned because he is broken, not because he over-centralizes the metagame. If you read the last section of my first point, I even hint that Blissey is way more centralizing than Garchomp but she isn't broken.
Well, not really. I'm stating that Deoxys-S IS broken, and we allowed him in OU for now (note: this is my opinion as well as many other people's opinion, but I will not drag another one of these discussions), but Garchomp is somewhat stoppable. Think of it like this: Deoxys-S and Garchomp have a 600 BST, alright? Deoxys-S cannot switch into many attacks like a Counter Starmie, but it definately runs like a better one, and lacks a good amount of counters since his movepool is impossible to guess (other than maybe Superpower and Ice Beam). 180 Speed is something Garchomp doesn't have, something that is very frightening. No Speed investment, even with a neutral nature, basically topples Base 130s. Garchomp has the advantage of hitting Base 100s, but if the Garchomp player is stupid, then he might reveal his plan of how he uses it. Granted he is hard to predict against as well, but it doesn't have as wide-range of a movepool. If you see Swords Dance and no Sandstorm, that means there is no Scarf attatched. If you see no Swords Dance and Garchomp is outspeeding your Weavile, then it's a Scarf version. If you see a Swords Dance AND Sandstorm, expect the Sub + Sand Veil abuser. The only one that is somewhat "hard" to predict is ChainChomp, and once it reveals Draco Meteor, you basically can guess what he will do. Yache Berry is another one that is hard to guess, but you have to accept that. Also, Blissey overcentralizes the metagame, you are correct, but it is within reason because otherwise we'd have teams full of Porygon-Zs and such.
Xcfrisco said:
I never argue about brightpowder being the main cause of concern EVER in my argument. And did you bother even reading my last point as to why I think Sand Veil is so much garbage?
This illustrates another counter-argument that really irks the crap out of me on how we should just DEAL with hax. Wtf? There are very good reasons why our metagame bans DT/OHKO to begin with (I'm not gonna bring up any of those points, they've been said time and time again, look for these threads yourself). We obviously don't DEAL with every single form of hax. I really don't like how people are just ok with "unsuitable" forms of hax in our metagame. It really brings down the skill in pokemon. For everyone that says pokemon is just a game of luck, how do people ever come up with winning records? Do they just get lucky a lot? Hell no, there is some deep skill involved with playing pokemon and we should make it our goal to make OU the most competitive enviroment (increase skill, decrease luck).
Because you have 1/5 of a chance of missing with Ice Beam? I keep telling you it's better than less than 1/4 of a chance of HITTING against a Togekiss that paralyzed you and is haxxing you off with Air Slash. I saw your first post, however, I still think 80% is better than, say, 70 or even 75%.
Obviously we banned Double Team for a reason: it is something that shouldn't have been invented in the first place. It's a stupid concept and the fact it shows that you are a wimp. However, it's not like you can CONTROL Sand Veil on Garchomp, it is his only ability. You're right, we don't deal with all forms of hax, because it's simple: we can't. How often is Quick Claw even used? How often is King's Rock used? And skill? Come on, luck is everywhere and is even applied to skill. How often can your Hippowdon switch into my Tyranitar Ice Beam? You think that he would be able to more than once, but even if you have the EVs to change that into a 3HKO, you still are in danger of a critical hit or a chance of freezing. How does skill apply to this? You can't switch in on Ice Beam forever. Granted, it isn't the best example, but you could definately use that example with Weavile Ice Punch and a Swampert switching in, etc. The thing is is that it's impossible to "eliminate" luck, it's with us forever. It's why we use Stone Edge over Rock Slide, or why we use Paraflinch movesets.
Good argument on that one though, that I will admit.
Xcfrisco said:
Again read my post, there's nothing wrong with it. All I wanted to do was point out how many pokemon in OU get outsped by garchomp. I chose OU cause its the pokemon most people use. Additionally, I didn't add in Ice Shard cause A.) I've already addressed it in my first post how pokemon need STAB or CB to be threatening with Ice shard and B.) Pokemon that rely on STAB to boost up its power are gonna get raped by stealth rock (Mamoswine is literally the only exception).
Alright then, I see what you mean. I would've still added Ice Shard, because it's still used. Mamoswine is the best option, but Donphan and Weavile tie in second (Stealth Rock versus barely 2HKO). You did have it in your first post, yes. Really you should add BL into the OU only because people do use BL Pokemon.
Very good arguments, I'll admit. You did think this out somewhat.
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