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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.
- Thread starter xcfrisco
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I think this is a different argument. I'm not arguing that he centralizes the metagame as a means of banning him, I say that he's broken and that's why he should be moved to Ubers.
I don't really understand this metaphor for Sand Veil. A team of 6 CS Rock-type Stone Edge users isn't very competitive at all. And if it that was the ONLY way to take down Gyarados, then I'd say he's broken. Not only that, your taking a huge risk by using Stone Edge instead of the more accurate Rock Slide, which if your using an all Scarf team, would actually be better cause you have a chance to flinch Gyarados.
And I think you're helping my argument actually. Its pretty wacksauce that very reliable moves such as Ice Beam/Ice Punch/whatever are relegated to Stone Edge accuracy on the most dangerous pokemon in the game.
Which is why Wobbuffet is undergoing retesting right now?
When Garchomp switches into a layer Toxic Spikes, it takes 25% over the course of two turns, in other words switching and attacking. That's the same as Stealth Rock, except Salamence and Dragonite both get Roost, but Garchomp needs an Aromatherapist to heal its Poison, regardless if you Spin the Spikes away or not.
When all three layers of Spikes are laid out, Dragonite and Salamence take 25%. Garchomp takes 37.5%, and is severely poisoned.
![Mia [old]](/forums/data/avatars/m/17/17136.jpg?1387813379){kind=avatar}
If you've played salamence or dragonite extensively, you'd know that each only requires about 2 turns to get 2 KOs. You would also know that sandstorm doesn't really hurt either of them, nor does stealth rock. If played correctly, all 3 dragons as well as Gyarados can overcome their weaknesses without much difficulty. The only real danger that they face is risky switch-ins which are completely optional in the first place, or simply being out sped and hit back. Intimidate and Sand Veil are generally better defensive abilities than poor Dragonite has, and Intimidate is easily the better of the two as it can be used for offense instead.
I would go so far as to debate that while both Garchomp and Salamence have 4x ice weakness, Salamence has significantly better typing being able to resist to differing degrees the next 2 best attacking types; ground and fighting. Salamence's ability also favors it better for switching in, since switching hoping Sand Veil makes your opponent miss is more likely to fail than not, but you can choose when to switch in Salamence to use Intimidate reliably, and it may even encourage your opponent to switch. A switch would give you a free turn to attack with a mixed and unpredictable set, something Garchomp is not even capable of.
But if I banded Ice Shard Salamence, it dies. End of story. Same for Dragonite And Life Orb (meaning I don't get locked into a move) can get them because they lost that 25% upon switching in.
Again, the Chompster only takes 6.125 percent, and you can miss with Ice Shard, and it needs to be banded. Even if it drops down 25% from spikes (who lets 3 layers of spikes get down with no spinning???) thenyou can MISS with a 100% acc move!!!!!!!!!!
Garchomp also outspeeds both of the other dragons and all the base 100 group...and it keeps good defenses...and above average HP...and a base 90 + STAB move that Mence doesn't get and Nite can really only use after a DD or Scarf...
Again, the Chompster only takes 6.125 percent, and you can miss with Ice Shard, and it needs to be banded. Even if it drops down 25% from spikes (who lets 3 layers of spikes get down with no spinning???) thenyou can MISS with a 100% acc move!!!!!!!!!!
Garchomp also outspeeds both of the other dragons and all the base 100 group...and it keeps good defenses...and above average HP...and a base 90 + STAB move that Mence doesn't get and Nite can really only use after a DD or Scarf...
Ha Wobb is different, it has been in Ubers for some time now, Chomp came out as OU and without much question, and only recently are a few people whining about it, thats what makes this kinda ridiculous.
Posting here for a last time just to say that everyone here screaming that Sand Veil is what breaks Garchomp needs to realize that it needs sand to work. Everyone is assuming that sand is in play automatically whenever Garchomp is out, which kind of pisses me off, seeing as how banning a perfectly counterable pokemon because its ability works 20% of the time only when sandstream is in play is ridiculous.
problem is is that sand is in about 80%+ of all OU battles because its effects are just really good
and further more garchomp doesn't even need you to set up sandstream has it can easely abuse your foes sandstream hell i've had that happen were my garchomp wins because it trait kicks in while in a sandstream caused by my foe
and further more garchomp doesn't even need you to set up sandstream has it can easely abuse your foes sandstream hell i've had that happen were my garchomp wins because it trait kicks in while in a sandstream caused by my foe
In that case, isn't adapting to counter sand, centralization around sand rather than centralization around Garchomp (meaning all those weather arguments come back into play)?
Ok so fine.. We will let Garchomp stay OU for a long time then bump it up to ubers since you seem to want some time limit.
Also last time I checked people wined that Wobb was Ou which sparked the test in the first place.
Why is it fine to move ubers to OU, but not OU to ubers?
How exactly do you plan to fight it? That's the problem with weather, no matter how hard you try, there are two OU viable sand-starters, one BL hail-starter, and no sun or rain. Sand will always come out on top, if only for simplicity.
Time limit..?
How many ubers have been moved to OU >_>? OU to ubers is different as you can use OU's in Ubers anyway... Ubers doesnt bar the player from using.. any poke' really.
No. You are so wrong on so many levels. First of all, the mono-Rock team was an example. It shows that people who use a team with 6 STAB types to kill something is still weak to it cause it's most powerful attack to take it down can miss. If I have a mono-team that has STAB against one Poke, I don't EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER, one more time, EVER expect to lose to it.
Second of all. I am NOT helping your argument. So many people use 80% moves as a means of killing something. You can look through every RMT and probably see 98 out of 100 'standard' Swampert sets using Hydro Pump, and for what? Skarmory. You see probably 80% of all Salamences using Fire Blast, in attempt to OHKO Skarmory. You see Lucario slapping on Stone Edge in an effort to beat Gyarados. 80% are used all the damn time as attack moves to beat something.
And third, don't be ignorant. Mono-Rock teams can be as competitive as any other team. Anyone who thinks different obviously haven't tried it, and if they have and failed, maybe that's a testament to their own battling skills.
I didn't say that, I mean Dragonite and Garchomp run physical sets most of the time, and they have about the same "counters", Stealth Rock is not a dragonite or salamence counter..
You make valid points (and sorry if my previous post seemed a little ridiculous), but I think our ideology about how valid 80% in pokemon differs. For every example you gave, said pokemon has a way of taking out its counter with 100% accurate moves. Obviously there is some definite risk/reward fastor when a trainer CHOOSES to pick a less accurate move over other options.
For your Swampert example, why risk running Hydro Pump when you can dump some EV's into special attack and still deal with Skarmory with Surf? Plus, can't Swampert just EQ on the turn Skarmory roosts and win cause its slower? But you say taking away defensive EV's from Swampert hamper its tanking ability. So, to tank better, you run a risk/reward gambit of relying on Hydro Pump to take not only Skarmory, but the other pokes you need to use a special water moves for, intead of using Surf. Your choice.
Every single Salamence will always 2hko with Flamethrower on standard Skarmory. But you want OHKO and use Fire Blast's 85% accuracy to take out not only Skarmory, but other pokes you need a Fire move to take out instead of using the 100% acccurate Flamethrower. Again, risk/reward, and your choice.
Lucario gives up a valuable moveslot (SD, CC, SE, ?) in using Stone Edge to counter Gyarados which is not only unreliable (Your gonna need to hit with SE twice unless you're running CB), but hampers his ability to deal with other pokemon (What's your last move going to be? lack Crunch and lose to ghosts or give up ES and lost to every pokemon faster than you)
Almost every example ever of using 80% accurate moves (or any move without 100% accuracy for that matter) runs into a risk/reward scenario of you banking on your move to land so it deals with problem pokemon when you have other options available to you.
Garchomp doesn't have that problem at all. He gets two of the best pokemon in the game to set up INIFINITE SS for him to get his evasion boost. And the only way to deal with this is to use Abamosnow or rely on weather changers (who get their weather automatically removes as soon as Tar or Hippo switch back in). There's hardly any risk/reward to get that 20% boost (The day SS stops being popular is the day I delete this thread)
I think Garchomp getting Sand Veil for free is very unlike a trainer choosing not to run 100% moves. Garchomp doesn't have other "better" options, nor is there any risk when running Sand Veil, its his only trait every single game.
12 pages and we STILL haven't come to a conclusion? Now this is getting ridiculous...
As far as I'm concerned, we've exhausted everything that theorymon will tell us. Any other discussion at this point is pointless IMO. In other words, we're just beating a dead "shark" at this point. (pun intended)
So what are we going to do? What are we ultimately going to decide to do? I say we take this to a vote and let the powers that be at Smogon react accordingly. Let's settle this by answering the following question:
Do you believe that Garchomp:
a. is just fine in OU?
b. should be banned from OU?
or
c. should be tested further to determine its status?
(Maybe this belongs in a poll...)
As far as I'm concerned, we've exhausted everything that theorymon will tell us. Any other discussion at this point is pointless IMO. In other words, we're just beating a dead "shark" at this point. (pun intended)
So what are we going to do? What are we ultimately going to decide to do? I say we take this to a vote and let the powers that be at Smogon react accordingly. Let's settle this by answering the following question:
Do you believe that Garchomp:
a. is just fine in OU?
b. should be banned from OU?
or
c. should be tested further to determine its status?
(Maybe this belongs in a poll...)
That's true, but it wouldn't hurt to at least ask for feedback from the rest of the community. If the community can't be trusted to do so in a civilized manner, then the decision should rest solely on the staff.
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