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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

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Just saying that if people honestly thought Sand Veil was much of a problem, they would consider Wide Lens on counters, like Weavile. Nobody really takes hax (like Sand Veil) into account really when team building- there are exceptions, like Togekiss, but 70-80 something percent chance that the Pokemon is not going to be able to touch it is a lot difference than a 20% chance the Pokemon will not touch it.

If the above is true, is there any validity to #3?

However, my opinion of Garchomp's tier status has definitely fluctuated after reading through some of this thread.

Edit: THIS IS SPARTA!!! Lol 300th post, couldn't resist that. :P
 
Togekiss' speed is 80. Garchomp's speed is 102.
Inner Focus / Steadfast pokemon such as Dragonite or Lucario can counter it easily. Especially if Lucario has Sash + SD + ExtremeSpeed.
 
Lucario can maybe take two Air Slashes, and hates paralysis.

Dragonite also hates paralysis, although Air Slash takes a while to KO.
 
1059860 said:
Togekiss' speed is 80. Garchomp's speed is 102.
Inner Focus / Steadfast pokemon such as Dragonite or Lucario can counter it easily. Especially if Lucario has Sash + SD + ExtremeSpeed.
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Paralyze helps with somewhat low speed. Even with Inner Focus/Steadfast, Lucario doesn't want to take an Aura Sphere. Nothing Togekiss can really do to 'Nite though, unless it's packing HP Ice, which is very rare (although common on Scarf variants, IIRC).

It was only a comparison though. But what I'm trying to say is, does hax matter that much? People still use Stone Edge to threaten Gyarados, and 80 accuracy isn't all that bad. If people cared about hax that much they would start carrying Wide Lens on that Sharding Weavile when facing Chomp in a SS.

I'm just not sure if it's a valid point or not.
 
jolly weavile choice band ice shard doesnt even KO garchomp.

garchomp just has too many options. whether or not he should be moved to uber is very debatable for both sides. i wouldnt mind seeing one less scarey sweeper though, being a BL player.
 
I just want to ask how you all would interpret/analyze the results of a hypothetical "No Garchomp" tourney. I personally don't think usage would really show the effect Garchomp has on the metagame. As others have said, Ice attacks and whatnot should still be prominent due to Salamence and Dragonite. Sandstream should still be as common since Tyranitar/Hippowdon should still be useful. The only change would be an increase in Flygon/Salamence/Dragonite to fill Garchomp's void.

This, of course, goes back to xcfrisco's assertion that Garchomp isn't any more overcentralizing than the other top tier OU Pokemon. I still believe it is (at least borderline) broken but I don't see any way to objectively test it. Any ideas?
 
CardsOfTheHeart said:
That's true, but it wouldn't hurt to at least ask for feedback from the rest of the community. If the community can't be trusted to do so in a civilized manner, then the decision should rest solely on the staff.
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Brawlex is 100% right, the reason our staff can't stomach most of the opinions in threads like this is because it's painfully obvious, time and time again, that the majority of you has an average of like 2-3 months of solid competitive battle experience. A mass poll would be utterly pointless when you consider that the literal majority really has no business sounding off on a matter of such importance and required experience as this one.
 
Even though I am freshly off a ban (sorry guys!!!), I have been watching this thread a bit by trolling on a friends computer. I just wanna say a few cents that I have here, since I HAVE been battling competatively since June in DP:

I have used Mamoswine on almost all my teams. NOT cause of Garchomp. I have missed using Ice shard for a OHKO twice: Once on a bulky variant, once cause of the ability in sandstorm you guys are talking about. Garchomp, however, has YET to sweep a team of mine and YET to kill more than one guy on a team I have.

I sincerely think that while he is a potentially rough tumbler in OU, he does BELONG in OU. Look, guys, Dragon types are MEANT to be nasty. If a schmuck at battling like me can have no problems with Garchomp, without making a team that the first considering is "holy crap I have to kill chomp", then surely the rest of you skilled battlers can just chuck a rival chomp into the garbage can in a battle. Right?

There might be a reason why Ice type is such a good attacking type.
 
Believe me, my stomach has been unsettled in this thread, as well, but I didn't think it would hurt to ask. I guess the community, as a whole, can't be trusted to make a good contribution to the decision-making process.

So remind me again why we're continuing to discuss something that's, for all intents and purposes, out of the community's hands? Did we really expect it to make a difference?
 
Ubers are banned because they give a player who uses one a significant advantage gap over a player that isn't using one, a gap that cannot be closed by skill. It has nothing to do with being counterable or overcentralizing the meta. Most of the current ubers have several non-uber counters, but they're so overpowering to everything else that it has to be removed.

If you guys want to test Garchomps brokeness, you shouldn't be keeping it from everyone, that would prove nothing regarding the advantage given to one player over another by using Garchomp. You should be recording the results of battles between a player using Garchomp and a player without. If a player who does not use Garchomp wins a siginificant amount of his battles against fellow non-garchomp players, and only loses when facing an opponent with a Garchomp, you'll know that Garchomp is irrefutably broken. Of course, then you would have problems with data verifiability, but that's really the only way to scientifically prove that Garchomp gives unfair advantage.
 
Wouldn't that prove that the player who doesn't use Garchomp foolishly hasn't prepared his team for the #1 most used pokemon and, therefore, arguably biggest threat in the game more than Garchomp itself being broken? Just because the player isn't using Garchomp for whatever reason (in your purported test or otherwise) doesn't mean that he or she should not be very, very able to respond to the threat it poses.

And CardsOfTheHeart, evidently xfrisco got one of my fellow moderators or administrators to O.K. the posting of this thread, even after the last two Garchomp threads were locked. I'm pretty close to locking this thread and forbidding all talk of tiers—besides empirical data gained from using Deoxys-S and/or Wobbuffet—as they relate to ubers and OU, again, until we have commenced a well-thought out and planned test ofthe viability of all the "suspects" in pokemon.
 
Jumpman16, sorry for getting a bit off topic, but Wobbuffet is still in its testing period I think. Not officially declared as OU yet.

I don't think it even should be OU, since it can switch into so many things such as walls (Probopass, Cresselia, etc.) and pull Destiny Bond / Encore. Destiny Bond will force the other person not use an attack the next turn, so he/she would use a stat up move or healing move. If it is encored, the Wobbuffet user has a free setup of BellyZard or BellyWhirl, both super threatening. If the Destiny Bond is used and the other person doesn't take out more than 33% of Wobbuffet's health, then Wobbuffet can Encore, if attacked, then MC/Counter to kill or inflict severe damage.

BellyZard or BellyWhirl not saying, you can even send in Garchomp for free Sub/SD, then it'd be major threat!
 
That's why I said "besides empirical data gained from using Deoxys-S and/or Wobbuffet", because both are still being evaluated right now and therefore fair game to discuss intelligibly and with evidence from actual battles. I know what Wobbuffet is capable of—you don't have to explain it to me, and I would rather you not if it's not from actual battle experience, that's my entire point.
 
Jumpman16 said:
That's why I said "besides empirical data gained from using Deoxys-S and/or Wobbuffet", because both are still being evaluated right now and therefore fair game to discuss intelligibly and with evidence from actual battles. I know what Wobbuffet is capable of—you don't have to explain it to me, and I would rather you not if it's not from actual battle experience, that's my entire point.
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I have certainly been testing Wobbuffet on Shoddy.
 
That's great man, maybe I wasn't singling you out personally? This is horribly off-topic why did you even bring it up lol
 
-Cynthia- said:
I don't think forcing people to vote is a good idea. Gets a lot of people choosing randomly. I don't think the community's opinion really matters too much anyway, it's all about what the staff thinks, probably not going to make drastic decisions though.
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I'd like to address this: we do take community opinions into account if they're smart and well thought out. It's those people that usually become new staff members if it isn't for something else (contribution) though those usually go hand in hand.

For example, the OP shows damage calculations and facts, so we take these into account, and therefore the poster's opinion to a certain extent.

Here's an example of what we don't take into account.

Adamant Cloyster(?) - Surprise Chomp by switching in to this Pokemon. let him think that you'd set-up spikes and shit. Then, watch him stay in and eat that Ice Shard. Cloyster's def should keep him alive even after switching in a CB Outrage
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Will-O-Wisp - Laugh at Garchomp while he attempts to damage you
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Jumpman16 said:
And CardsOfTheHeart, evidently xfrisco got one of my fellow moderators or administrators to O.K. the posting of this thread, even after the last two Garchomp threads were locked. I'm pretty close to locking this thread and forbidding all talk of tiers—besides empirical data gained from using Deoxys-S and/or Wobbuffet—as they relate to ubers and OU, again, until we have commenced a well-thought out and planned test ofthe viability of all the "suspects" in pokemon.
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As much as this would "upset" me cause my thread took a long time to make and the only solid post I've read so far that somewhat "refutes" my argument was Aeroblacktyl's saying that its all about scenario, my attitude would be settled down if I knew what the pokemon heads were going to do in this matter.

My biggest fear is that, becase this issue is decisive, no one takes any steps to rectify or address the community. I'm sure Jump that you and the other guys in your secret chatroom are still going over ways to test Garchomp, or if he is broken for that matter, which is why we haven't heard any concluding remarks from you or any of the other staff.

If or when you guys decide something about Garchomp, will you make sure the community hears about it? Like, make a sticky thread at the top of Stark Mountain?
 
We'll do something like that, yeah. The dynamic is a little different considering Competitor has yet to be released, but Colin has more than proven a level-headed and intelligent analyzer of the competitive landscape, not just the creator of the program that allows us have one.
 
how is this thread still up and my thread PROOVING wobbuffet to uber got locked?

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Air Demon sent out Porygon2 (lvl 100 Porygon2).
noob4 sent out lol (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Porygon2 traced lol's Shadow Tag!
lol used Encore.
But it failed!
Porygon2 used Trick Room.
Porygon2 twisted the dimensions!
---
lol used Encore.
Porygon2 got an encore!
Porygon2 used Trick Room.
The twisted dimensions returned to normal!
---
noob4 switched in i am paint lol (lvl 100 Smeargle ?).
Porygon2 used Trick Room.
Porygon2 twisted the dimensions!
---
Air Demon switched in Umbreon (lvl 100 Umbreon ?).
i am paint lol used Substitute.
i am paint lol lost 25% of its health.
i am paint lol made a substitute!
---
Umbreon used Curse.
Umbreon's speed was lowered.
Umbreon's attack was raised.
Umbreon's defence was raised.
i am paint lol used Spore.
Umbreon fell asleep!
---
Umbreon is fast asleep!
i am paint lol used Belly Drum.
i am paint lol lost 50% of its health.
i am paint lol's attack was raised.
i am paint lol's Salac Berry raised its speed!
---
Umbreon is fast asleep!
i am paint lol used Baton Pass.
noob4 switched in how i am meditate? lol? (lvl 100 Medicham ?).
The twisted dimensions returned to normal!
---
how i am meditate? lol? used Brick Break.
It's super effective!
Umbreon lost 100% of its health.
Air Demon's Umbreon fainted.
---
Air Demon switched in Dusknoir (lvl 100 Dusknoir ?).
Dusknoir is exerting its pressure!
how i am meditate? lol? used Psycho Cut.
Dusknoir lost 100% of its health.
Air Demon's Dusknoir fainted.
---
Air Demon switched in Porygon2 (lvl 100 Porygon2).
Porygon2 traced how i am meditate? lol?'s Pure Power!
how i am meditate? lol? used Brick Break.
It's super effective!
Porygon2 lost 100% of its health.
Air Demon's Porygon2 fainted.
---
Air Demon has left the room.
noob4 wins!
 
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