Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Mega Breloom said:
Flame body and static are the same as dire claw but just in the opposite interaction getting hit instead of you hitting the opponent while praying for the proc, there are not skill behind that, just fish for the proc. Personally I don't think those things need to he banned since both have ways to get around them Vengeance already quoted what could be done about dire claw and for the other two is avoiding using contact moves, both options are avaliable for players on teambuilding and during the matches so I don't get why would dire claw be considered uncompetitive but those abilities not. In the end of the day the 50% of dire claw gets reduced to around 34% of rolling a strong status because regular poison sucks, which is almost the same as the other abilities.
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They are inherently, fundamentally different. Think of this from the perspective of the one defending instead.

Static and Flame Body are something you react to. If someone switches in Zapdos, you're only going to be Paralyzed by Static if you make contact. i know discharge exists but we're putting that aside for a moment Maybe you don't have good options to attack Zapdos without risking a proc or switch someone in, but that's just the strat. The point being, Static is only a threat to you if you take the action that rolls it, i.e. using contact moves. The opponent's job is to pressure you into doing that or exploit your unwillingness to do that.

In contrast, Dire Claw is something that is proactively done against you. It's a highly spammable move that you can use to fish for status (Even regular Poison can be significant even if it's the weakest result so there's no need to downplay it). To defend against it in a guaranteed way, you have to switch in a Steel type who doesn't want to be anywhere near its Close Combat, or literally just Gholdengo. And of course, there's the fact that it's a 50% chance for a status instead of 30%, and it's the only one that can inflict the strongest status, Sleep.

Again I do NOT think Quick Claw is worth sweating over this is a big red herring fr let's focus on what matters here
 
MrE said:
Hazards aren't a problem imo, it helps with progress and we've been hazard stacking since gen 2.

Also not convinced Dire Claw is all that big of an issue, Sneasler finds it quite difficult to find opportunities to click it and due to it's frailty it almost never gets to click it more than twice.

I would like to see Valiant, Pult, Garg, Ursa and Gambit on the next survey, not necessarily convinced they're all broken but those 5 are the closest to being broken mons in the tier rn imo.

Also free the match up moth!
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I agree hazards are not as big of a deal as everyone makes them seem.

Go watch replays of WCoP, i really dont see matches being decided by some really consistent form of hazard stacking, mainly just offense v offense with a lot of opportunity to rapid spin
 
AndViet said:
So to change the subject a bit, what would you guys like to see being asked in the next community survey?

To be honest I would like to see something about Sneasler / Dire Claw and Quick Claw.
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I too hope that Sneasler / Dire Claw gets the boot from OU. It’s literally low risk high reward.

Most importantly, since the community is still concerned on the state of Tera, I want to push for two separate ladders when it comes to the suspect test. The original ladder, and the other ladder for Tera Previews. This way the community could have a better understanding when it comes to their vote. This is the one thing I would recommend the community to push for in the upcoming survey, is for two separate ladders when it comes to the suspect test of Tera.

I also think that Kingambit needs the boot as well. Supreme Overlord is stoopid. :blobshrug:
 
WildWave said:
Most importantly, since the community is still concerned on the state of Tera, I want to push for two separate ladders when it comes to the suspect test. The original ladder, and the other ladder for Tera Previews. This way the community could have a better understanding when it comes to their vote. This is the one thing I would recommend the community to push for in the upcoming survey, is for two separate ladders when it comes to the suspect test of Tera.
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this would be a great idea if we also had twice as many people to run the ladders. who's volunteering?

(i'm serious actually, i'm sure there are people out there who would be both able and willing to supervise a ladder for a little while)
 
Schpoonman said:
Maybe a hot take, but the most expedient solution to hazards (if it is indeed a problem) is nuking Gholdengo. Good As Gold is a stupid Ability that unlike LR and ST was given to a Pokemon with an excellent stat spread, fantastic typing (that also conveniently blocks the new Rapid Spin clone), and deep and abusable movepool. I don't think Gholdengo is itself a problem except when it comes to hazard removal, though.
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This is basically just, "Let Corviknight defog" because anything else with the move, that might plausibly run it in OU, already has a solid way of dealing with Gholdengo. Talonflame has fire STAB, Liligant-H needs coverage, Kleavor could fit it but his usage doesn't support it, and other potential users like Scizor aren't OU-viable anyway.

As for Rapid Spinners, you'd need to justify not using either Great Tusk (by far the preferred option) or Iron Treads (generally inferior to Great Tusk, but still better than others), neither of which allows Gholdengo a safe switch in anyway.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
can people please stop exhuming talonflame's grave to prove this point? there are other examples that have been usable in ou after 2013
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But they're not in Gen 9, while Talonflame is. If you really, truly want to use a reliable defogger that doesn't care about Gholdengo, Talonflame exists and is viable on stall/semi-stall (or at least it was pre-Home).

The fact that we don't see people resorting to marginally-viable mons like Talonflame, just to deal with Gholdengo, is a sign that Gholdengo isn't excessively constraining on team building.
 
Alternator said:
But they're not in Gen 9, while Talonflame is. If you really, truly want to use a reliable defogger that doesn't care about Gholdengo, Talonflame exists and is viable on stall/semi-stall (or at least it was pre-Home).
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what does talonflame do other than defog and maybe wisp sometimes? you're dedicating an entire teamslot to a mon that can barely operate outside of its role instead of using, oh i don't know, the best mon in the meta

i mean, i agree with you on gholdengo, it's not an inherent problem and the lack of hazard removal is more a product of the times than anything. but i don't think talonflame even deserves mention. (mostly because i have a decade-long personal vendetta against the damn thing and it deserves what it's gotten)
 
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DaddyBuzzwole said:
what does talonflame do other than defog and maybe wisp sometimes? you're dedicating an entire teamslot to a mon that can barely operate outside of its role instead of using, oh i don't know, the best mon in the meta
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Exactly my point! It's marginally viable outside of stall/semi-stall (where its ability to handle physical grass attackers is very useful), and if we were seeing it frequently being splashed onto balance teams that'd be a sign that Gholdengo is putting harsh constraints on team building. You can make it work, Hex users love another source of status effects and its matchup into Great Tusk is pretty good, but it's still a C/C- mon.

But...we're not seeing it, nor are we seeing any of the unviable defoggers being run just because they can deal with Gholdengo. Instead, we're seeing Great Tusk everywhere, who is far and away the best Rapid Spinner with or without Gholdengo, and we're seeing Corviknight, whose defensive typing and bulk make him valuable even when the opponent can deny defog.
 
Return to Zero said:
They are inherently, fundamentally different. Think of this from the perspective of the one defending instead.

Static and Flame Body are something you react to. If someone switches in Zapdos, you're only going to be Paralyzed by Static if you make contact. i know discharge exists but we're putting that aside for a moment Maybe you don't have good options to attack Zapdos without risking a proc or switch someone in, but that's just the strat. The point being, Static is only a threat to you if you take the action that rolls it, i.e. using contact moves. The opponent's job is to pressure you into doing that or exploit your unwillingness to do that.

In contrast, Dire Claw is something that is proactively done against you. It's a highly spammable move that you can use to fish for status (Even regular Poison can be significant even if it's the weakest result so there's no need to downplay it). To defend against it in a guaranteed way, you have to switch in a Steel type who doesn't want to be anywhere near its Close Combat, or literally just Gholdengo. And of course, there's the fact that it's a 50% chance for a status instead of 30%, and it's the only one that can inflict the strongest status, Sleep.

Again I do NOT think Quick Claw is worth sweating over this is a big red herring fr let's focus on what matters here
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Dire claw isn't by any means spamable, in fact most of the unburden Sneaslers (the best sets) don't even run it because poison is a bad type, acrobatics, cc and other coverage move are the most optimal, you can't call dire claw spamable since if it doesn't proc the right status it just dies without even doing much damage.
If you have a sturdy mon that is the only one that can tank a hit from Sneasler and you need to stay and risk the roll then you are in the exact same scenario of an offensive mon having to take the risk of not getting status from static/flame body because nobody else wants to switch into the mon with that ability. Both incomes are the result of all the choices made in builder and during the match being decided on if the rival gets the proc or not, that is why is valid to compare those two, both are luck based strats and both have counterplay so I don't get why one should be banned for being a luck fishing element while the other isn't.
 
Alternator said:
Exactly my point! It's marginally viable outside of stall/semi-stall (where its ability to handle physical grass attackers is very useful), and if we were seeing it frequently being splashed onto balance teams that'd be a sign that Gholdengo is putting harsh constraints on team building. You can make it work, Hex users love another source of status effects and its matchup into Great Tusk is pretty good, but it's still a C/C- mon.

But...we're not seeing it, nor are we seeing any of the unviable defoggers being run just because they can deal with Gholdengo. Instead, we're seeing Great Tusk everywhere, who is far and away the best Rapid Spinner with or without Gholdengo, and we're seeing Corviknight, whose defensive typing and bulk make him valuable even when the opponent can deny defog.
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Realistically even if Gholdengo gets banned we aren't going to see other defogers outside Corviknight because of the powercreep, Gholdengo getting banned isn't going to make stuff like defog Lurantis OU.
 
Quick Claw is a meme that people will stop talking about in a week or less, much like what happened with Garganacl and Walking Wake.

On the topic of Sneasler, I think Dire Claw is overrated. The 50% chance to put someone to sleep sounds very scary, and I have been fucked over by it at least once, but relying on it to cheese through would-be answers just seems impractical to me. It's a coin flip on whether or not a status even applies to begin with, and assuming you win that coin flip, it's a one-in-three chance that it picks sleep as opposed to poison or paralysis. That's assuming you're not running Poison Touch, which idk why you would even want to if you're relying on a sleep proc so much. I think the move is annoying, and you won't see me crying at its funeral if people decide to ban it for being dumb, but I don't think it's significantly more problematic than something like a flinch or a crit.

Now Unburden combined with Shadow Claw? I think that shit's scary. I can't think of many switch-ins other than Corviknight or Dondozo, and that's assuming Tera isn't involved.
 
Mega Breloom said:
Dire claw isn't by any means spamable, in fact most of the unburden Sneaslers (the best sets) don't even run it because poison is a bad type, acrobatics, cc and other coverage move are the most optimal, you can't call dire claw spamable since if it doesn't proc the right status it just dies without even doing much damage.
If you have a sturdy mon that is the only one that can tank a hit from Sneasler and you need to stay and risk the roll then you are in the exact same scenario of an offensive mon having to take the risk of not getting status from static/flame body because nobody else wants to switch into the mon with that ability. Both incomes are the result of all the choices made in builder and during the match being decided on if the rival gets the proc or not, that is why is valid to compare those two, both are luck based strats and both have counterplay so I don't get why one should be banned for being a luck fishing element while the other isn't.
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Because one is on your terms and one isn't. The point I am making here is that they are fundamentally incomparable because even if both roll to see if the opponent gets a status effect, it's not the same person initiating both rolls. Against Static, you are the one who decides if you are going to roll the dice and see if you get a status. Against Dire Claw, the opponent is the one who decides if you're going to roll the dice and see if you get a status. Regardless of where you stand on if either of them are overpowered, it's really dumb to pretend that this huge difference between the two doesn't matter and that they're basically the same thing.
 
JHoxha said:
On the topic of Sneasler, I think Dire Claw is overrated. The 50% chance to put someone to sleep sounds very scary,
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part of the reason it sounds scary is because it's not even true. it has a 50% chance to inflict a status condition, and that status condition isn't sleep every time. logically i would guess it's split 3 ways evenly between the status conditions like tri attack (so it would have a ~16.667% chance to sleep), but this company doesn't use logic, so i have no idea how the probabilities are distributed. i read something about poison having a higher chance, so the sleep chance might actually be even less. i don't really have a horse in this fight because i don't care about sneasler, but i do want to make sure everyone is properly informed on how the thing they're voting about actually works
 
AndViet said:
So to change the subject a bit, what would you guys like to see being asked in the next community survey?

To be honest I would like to see something about Sneasler / Dire Claw and Quick Claw.
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Tera in general. Quick Claw is bad too, but also Quick Draw (or Glowbro if that isn’t an option). Sneasler is annoying but we as a player base have adapted, Sneasler is not dominating in any way. At least, not like fucking KINGAMBIT. Ban it please please please. It’s my least favourite Mon to play against, even compared to mons like Flutter mane the start of the meta. RNG is luck based bullshit that we don’t want, but at least it can be fun, whether you avoid the RNG or successfully use it. Kingambit is never fun. I didn’t even like it when I used it. Kingambit makes the game actively unenjoyable, and what matters in the end is if the game is fun, right? Forget the survey, just ban it now. Hamurott is a presence I don’t really love either, it makes the lack of Defoggers/Spinners even more painful. It’s not exactly Luck-based or unfun, just might become a problem later down since the spikes are less likely to be removed.
That’s it for me really.
 
quick claw is something that should be quickbanned, not a mon like volcarona

quick claw creates an advantage based on luck where u can't do nothing about it. 10% effects on tbolts, beam etc even if useful have some counterplays/immunities

but quick claw is totally dumb, going first is always an advantage on a pokemon like the slowbro with cholera since he can't ouspeed most ou walls.

quick claw, lax incense, king's rock, even the old paraflinch rachi/kiss was totally dumb and uncompetiteve as a strategy
 
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