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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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Bisharp was worse in every way except speed for the last generations and it performed just fine without tera. Kingambit is a bulky nuke whose teammates can support fairly easy (at least pre home, where there were only tusk, cinderace & valiant to run fighting moves, and even then those didnt always use them). It doesn't fear faster mons as those tend to be frail and succumb to sucker punch, and there is no slower mon aside from ting lu that would dare come in on it thinking it'd not get crippled and effectively become relegated to sac fodder for the rest of the match
It does not even need to use a turn setting up if using Supreme Overlord, as it gets an effective +1 atk just for being the last one alive, if bisharp was the juicy reverse sweep gimmick mon this thing is that but extremely consistent
Id say tera is what keeps kingambit bearable atm
I think it’d make the most sense to test Tera before volc and gambit.
This is because both volc and gambit take advantage of the opponent not knowing their Tera type.
So in the event the community votes for Tera team preview (which is certainly plausible), volc and gambit could be evaluated after this slight nerf rather than before.
This is because both volc and gambit take advantage of the opponent not knowing their Tera type.
So in the event the community votes for Tera team preview (which is certainly plausible), volc and gambit could be evaluated after this slight nerf rather than before.
Bisharp also had ludicrously spammable knock off and was never a serious contender to be banned. With the main consideration as to why it was never that strong is exactly because it rolls over to two of the most common attacking types in the game. No one's arguing that Kingambit is bad without tera, but it's definitely more of a tera abusing than the average mon and removing tera would be a huge nerf, maybe enough to bring it back in line.
>Id say tera is what keeps kingambit bearable atm
what are you teraing into kingambit that matters more than kingambit being able to dodge nearly every one of it's intended weaknesses. Hell I would actually argue that Kingambit is one of the mons that gets a net buff from tera preview, not the intended nerf. Kingambit is highly likely to be tera flying or tera fairy most of the time anyways, it's one of the more predictable mons on that front, whether you know or not is irrelevant because of the inability to predict when it's gonna type 180, but it benefit from knowing if the opponent can tera to a type that could be a problem.
There's a potential argument for it still. Kingambit can live most super effective hits that aren't Fighting, and with Supreme Overlord its Sucker Punch can take out anything that doesn't resist it. Plus Volcarona is still gone. It'd just be a lot easier to check since it'd hesitate to come in on an Earthquake and Great Tusk/Zamazenta actually would reliably counter it. I put it as a 4/5 on the survey in regards to action needed, but it'd be more like a 3/5 with no Tera. Maybe a 2.
Yeah, but kingambit is effectively mega Bisharp for all intents and purposes. Higher attack and bulk with an arguably better ability with the only downside is it being slower. The thing is way more threatening than Bisharp ever was, and if it had knock off itd probably already be banned
That was what i meant yes
This man is ahead of the curve
Nah it warped the meta even without tera, punching glove + sd sets were vitrually unwallable by anything not named dondozo. And that isn't healthy at all, plus trailblaze sets give it game ending potential it never had last gen, as well as its counterplay being weaker or getting completely gutted this gen. Even pex, who could answer it, got hard countered if it ran taunt. Water bear can hang with its brother darkshfiu, because now its almost just as op as it thanks to buffs.
Please no. It is outright broken with Swords Dance, Punching Gloves, and Tera. There is literally no reason to test Urshifu-Rapid Strike as it is way, way better than Zamazenta is.
Actually, Taunt SD + Drain Punch could beat some variants of Dozo as seen in this replay (though both sides made some questionable plays).
Yeah this solidifies my thoughts and how that it should stay banned from OU for the gen.
Urshi was legitimately overwhelming, there's no good checks or switchins, it just nuked everything and had sets to beat anything that could stomache it. It didn't have any positive effect being in the tier at all.
There's debate with volc because volc legitimately was a positive influence on the tier (something I'm sure no one saw coming until it was gone) and it's ban felt more like bias than anything. It was a rushed sudden QB and even reading what the council's reasonings for the QB were it was kinda BS. Volc was far from a Qb worthy mon since nothing really changed from gen start for it, except more limitations (1 week in and volc was already being forced away from most teras and sticking to water/ground).
The main reason for volcs ban was due to the versitility, cause the word of the day is 'hypothetically' and volc could 'hypothetically' be any tera to cheese past would be counters, which in this case is weird because volc would love if it could braindead take 1 tera typing instead of multiple, its borderline THE nerf holding it back running so many teras cause there's so many checks in the game for it but because 'hypothetically' it can do what any other mon can do and pop off with the right tera in the matchup it came prepped for its QB worthy after 6 months? Nah.
Funny thing is if volc was suspected instead it might've actually gotten banned but with the QB we actually need the void volc filled back in, this is where suspect test and ladder visuals show how the game adapts to a removal/addition and this has basically been the suspect ladder everyone is bored of already.
I understand your frustration, but you’ve been dropping in at basically every moment Volc gets mentioned to complain about the council banning it, and at some point it’s just not helping anything.
This may be an... odd take, possibly unpopular, also slightly a little a lot late, but the talk about Quick Claw possibly getting banned may start setting a precedent, well more like the Bright Powder ban already set one. My question is, where's the line of what is broken and what isn't?
For example, Quick Claw gives the user a 20% chance to move first in battle. This can be knocked off to prevent the usage of the item, despite this people are considering the item unbalanced.
Paralysis is a status condition that can be inflicted in numerous ways, Thunder Wave and Static being the easiest, and Thunderbolt and Discharge helping to aid it. Paralysis gives you a 25% percent chance of not being able to move at all. This can be avoided by using a Ground or Electric Type sure, but if that isn't an option because you don't want to swap in your Great Tusk against a Rotom-Wash under fear of Hydro Pump, what do you do? Heal Bell isn't exactly common right now, but is Paralysis considered unbalanced? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. There is counterplay to it, like getting good at predicting the plays and playing around those possibilities.
Sleep is a status condition that can also be inflicted, although less frequently. Spore and Sleep Powder being the big two, as Effect Spore really isnt good enough, let's leave that out. Sleep prevents you from moving at all, guaranteed 100% for at least 1 turn. With an average of 2 full turns of not being able to move at all. This can aid an opponent in getting set up for free to sweep your team. Once again, yes there is counterplay, Grass types can't be put to sleep, neither can Gholdengo or Garganacl, but grass types are limited, and those 2 pokemon aren't on every single team, but is sleep unbalanced? Of course not. Once again that would be ridiculous.
Quick Claw can definitely aid in allowing slower powerful pokemon to get a good hit in, but Paralysis can slow down opposing pokemon and do a similar thing. Sticky Webs can slow down an entire team unless the opponent can Spin those webs away. What I'm saying is Quick Claw is just a cheese item. It's not particularly special or overpowered, it's annoying, but so is half the damn things we see in this god forsaken game we all love. We can't just go around banning stuff just because theres a % chance it could screw the opponent over, it's like when people talked about banning freeze in SSOU when Kyurem was around because "statistically you can get a freeze per game and you're screwed if that procs", yeah you will be, deal with it, tons of things have a % chance of doing something detrimental to your soul and psyche. Plus, Quick Claw prevents pokemon from running important items that can be crucial for a team. Boots and Choice Items, Leftovers for recovery on mons without it, Booster Energy, hell even AV. If you rely too much on Quick Claw, you're going to miss out on a lot of opportunities in a game. I've messed around with Quick Claw and I just don't get it. It's decent for sure, yeah, you can cheese some victories out people, but so could Flyinium-Z Mirror Move Physical Tapu Koko in Gen7, hell a lot of Z-move strats, and just cheese strats in general can squeeze wins out.
This could just be the greatest dogwater take of all time, but I can't wrap my head around the ban argument for this item. It's just mid.
For example, Quick Claw gives the user a 20% chance to move first in battle. This can be knocked off to prevent the usage of the item, despite this people are considering the item unbalanced.
Paralysis is a status condition that can be inflicted in numerous ways, Thunder Wave and Static being the easiest, and Thunderbolt and Discharge helping to aid it. Paralysis gives you a 25% percent chance of not being able to move at all. This can be avoided by using a Ground or Electric Type sure, but if that isn't an option because you don't want to swap in your Great Tusk against a Rotom-Wash under fear of Hydro Pump, what do you do? Heal Bell isn't exactly common right now, but is Paralysis considered unbalanced? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. There is counterplay to it, like getting good at predicting the plays and playing around those possibilities.
Sleep is a status condition that can also be inflicted, although less frequently. Spore and Sleep Powder being the big two, as Effect Spore really isnt good enough, let's leave that out. Sleep prevents you from moving at all, guaranteed 100% for at least 1 turn. With an average of 2 full turns of not being able to move at all. This can aid an opponent in getting set up for free to sweep your team. Once again, yes there is counterplay, Grass types can't be put to sleep, neither can Gholdengo or Garganacl, but grass types are limited, and those 2 pokemon aren't on every single team, but is sleep unbalanced? Of course not. Once again that would be ridiculous.
Quick Claw can definitely aid in allowing slower powerful pokemon to get a good hit in, but Paralysis can slow down opposing pokemon and do a similar thing. Sticky Webs can slow down an entire team unless the opponent can Spin those webs away. What I'm saying is Quick Claw is just a cheese item. It's not particularly special or overpowered, it's annoying, but so is half the damn things we see in this god forsaken game we all love. We can't just go around banning stuff just because theres a % chance it could screw the opponent over, it's like when people talked about banning freeze in SSOU when Kyurem was around because "statistically you can get a freeze per game and you're screwed if that procs", yeah you will be, deal with it, tons of things have a % chance of doing something detrimental to your soul and psyche. Plus, Quick Claw prevents pokemon from running important items that can be crucial for a team. Boots and Choice Items, Leftovers for recovery on mons without it, Booster Energy, hell even AV. If you rely too much on Quick Claw, you're going to miss out on a lot of opportunities in a game. I've messed around with Quick Claw and I just don't get it. It's decent for sure, yeah, you can cheese some victories out people, but so could Flyinium-Z Mirror Move Physical Tapu Koko in Gen7, hell a lot of Z-move strats, and just cheese strats in general can squeeze wins out.
This could just be the greatest dogwater take of all time, but I can't wrap my head around the ban argument for this item. It's just mid.
Overall, you're 100% right. Pokemon is a game with a large amount of inherent randomness, and hax has been a part of the game as long as two people have been trying to beat each other to death with a pile of normal-types. If you banned anything that had a hax component, there wouldn't be much of a game left at all!
So, the question then becomes, why are Bright Powder and King's Rock banned? The biggest difference between those two, and any other held item not named Quick Claw, is that they dynamically change what clicking a button will do, on a turn-by-turn basis. Choice items will always lock you in, boosting items always affect their type, berries always activate when their condition is met, and so on.
When you click a move with one of these items, you're allowing them to have a trait they didn't already have. Coincidentally, all three happen to create fractions of an additional turn, in completely random and unpredictable ways. There's no actual skill expression in using any of these items; just games where you'll randomly win or lose because someone's mon got an extra turn to set up, or two extra flinches, or a pivotal Quick Claw proc against a revenge killer.
Going back to the first point, though, the biggest reason Quick Claw is safe to remove from the meta is that the line can actually be drawn there. There doesn't need to be a larger scale examination of what is and isn't hax -- you can simply apply the reasoning used for Bright Powder and King's Rock to justify a ban on something that lets slow mons gets extra turns, rather than fast ones.
Yeah, the strat itself is kind of mid. It's strong right now, but the odds are very good that it'll burn itself out on its own as the meta stabilizes. But if it's not even that strong, what's the value in attempting to preserve something uncompetitive?
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Well first it should be mentioned that I don't think anyone seriously thinks QC is broken. It comes down to the item simply being pure cheese, or BS. Whichever you call it. It's entirely RNG and doesn't really promote strategic or skill since it doesn't have any interaction with either player during battle. It's just RNG deciding at random "okay this ignores speed tiers this turn".
The major difference in this example, is paralysis is first and foremost a speed control tool. So choosing to run twave, or a paralysis spreading move like Discharge is done so as a part of interactive gameplay. Now I know everyone has been soured by bad paralysis luck, but it's possible to minimize the amount of times these situations can happen, through good playing and/or good building. Like you said, there is counterplay.
Similarly as you mention it, sleep also limits actions sometimes. But it also doesn't exist purely as cheese or RNG, as it's used to enable teammates or put pressure on the opponent by limiting the actions of some Pokemon, but the opponent can make informed decisions on which Pokemon hurts them the least to have asleep, thus letting them minimize the impact of sleep. So again, sleep at least promotes some thoughtful play and interaction between players, since if the sleep user hits a poor target, they've wasted sleep. Or the opponent can have a grass to absorb it. There is counterplay.
Leaving aside that I don't recall anyone talking about wanting to ban freeze in SSOU due to Kyurem, QC isn't chosen to provide speed control like twave or webs. It just gets chosen to sometimes let ow heavy hitters ignore the speed tiers sometimes and KO mons who should be KOing them instead, through no thought or skill involved.
The issue is that status brought on by secondary effects from moves is something both sides have to contend with. Just as they deal with accuracy too. Unlike something such as QC or even Bright powder which only exists to add a new layer of RNG and doesn't exactly promote skillful or strategic playing. Which... Aren't we trying to ultimately promote skill?
I also don't think we have to worry about some snowball starting and banning random thing based on potential hax, since very few items do exist purely for hax strats. Off the top of my head, there's QC, King's Rock, Bright powder.
I'm not exactly gonna lose sleep over it if nothing ends up happening, but i also don't think removing the item does any harm either and removed a purely RNG hax item.
Correct me if I'm wrong here but quick claw only makes you go first in your priority bracket right? So its essentially a useless item if the opponent has +1 priority or higher. Ultimately if its not obviously broken then leave it, banning things like this is what gives the council a bad name.
Are you salty they beat you cause a 20% chance activated? I've lost a lot more games to an iron head flinch than thats happened. And flinch doesnt require the item slot. It's highly unlikely that the advantage an opponent gets over 50+ games using quick claw will outweigh the benefit of another item. I'm not even really convinced that bright powder/ evasion abilities are that broken because gamefreak gave us the tools to beat it (gravity, gastro acid, neutralizing gas, opposing weather, wide lens, the list goes on......) but we arent ready for that discussion are we...
The only one I agree with is banning kings rock because turn immobilisation is pretty shittyPlease gamefreak change freeze to do turn based damage like burn and lower defense or something. Maybe i just miss when 6v6 was more of a rock, paper, scissors, where stall beat balance, balance beat HO, HO beat stall, and you could build a fun gimmick team to beat one of the above. Now you either play hyper offense, bulky offense, or you lose, and if you manage to win with a gimmick team, people demand the gimmick is banned.
Are you salty they beat you cause a 20% chance activated? I've lost a lot more games to an iron head flinch than thats happened. And flinch doesnt require the item slot. It's highly unlikely that the advantage an opponent gets over 50+ games using quick claw will outweigh the benefit of another item. I'm not even really convinced that bright powder/ evasion abilities are that broken because gamefreak gave us the tools to beat it (gravity, gastro acid, neutralizing gas, opposing weather, wide lens, the list goes on......) but we arent ready for that discussion are we...
The only one I agree with is banning kings rock because turn immobilisation is pretty shitty
Correct me if I'm wrong here but quick claw only makes you go first in your priority bracket right? So its essentially a useless item if the opponent has +1 priority or higher. Ultimately if its not obviously broken then leave it, banning things like this is what gives the council a bad name.
Are you salty they beat you cause a 20% chance activated? I've lost a lot more games to an iron head flinch than thats happened. And flinch doesnt require the item slot. It's highly unlikely that the advantage an opponent gets over 50+ games using quick claw will outweigh the benefit of another item. I'm not even really convinced that bright powder/ evasion abilities are that broken because gamefreak gave us the tools to beat it (gravity, gastro acid, neutralizing gas, opposing weather, wide lens, the list goes on......) but we arent ready for that discussion are we...
The only one I agree with is banning kings rock because turn immobilisation is pretty shittyPlease gamefreak change freeze to do turn based damage like burn and lower defense or something.Maybe i just miss when 6v6 was more of a rock, paper, scissors, where stall beat balance, balance beat HO, HO beat stall, and you could build a fun gimmick team to beat one of the above. Now you either play hyper offense, bulky offense, or you lose, and if you manage to win with a gimmick team, people demand the gimmick is banned.
I'd say King's Rock is definitely the one that deserved do go specifically because of multi-hit moves. Especially with Icicle Spear Bax and Bullet Seed Loom being a thing now, along with Skill Link Cloyster and GOD FORBID Population Bomb, that item was definitely too much. You could get a 50% flinch chance with Cloyster alone, can't imagine what Maushold would do if it could get a hold of that.
Well Icicle Spear, Bullet Seed, and Population Bomb are only good with Loaded Dice and Wide Lens respectfully. So not like you can use them effectively with King’s Rock unless you have Skill Link.
Still 100% support banning KR since conceptually it’s an uncompetitive item. Same with Quick Claw. Stuff like this should have been banned from the start tbh.
Are you salty they beat you cause a 20% chance activated? I've lost a lot more games to an iron head flinch than that's happened. And flinch doesn't require the item slot. It's highly unlikely that the advantage an opponent gets over 50+ games using quick claw will outweigh the benefit of another item. I'm not even really convinced that bright powder/ evasion abilities are that broken because gamefreak gave us the tools to beat it (gravity, gastro acid, neutralizing gas, opposing weather, wide lens, the list goes on......) but we aren't ready for that discussion are we...
Look I agree with your stance that over a spread of 50 games the quick claw should win only 10 of those games. I like the idea of keeping claw in because their may be a chance that you can clutch a out a revenge kill. Some may call that cheese/hax but I think it's a strategic decision in team building (much like running something like T-wave or Will-o-wisp will have a similar effect on the outcome of the game.)
However I think you go a little too far in wanting to unban evasion. Evasion moves are different from quick-claw because you are guaranteed to activate the evasion move more than once, causing a snowball effect to be unhittable. Be my guest if you want to run the move gravity in 2023, but even gravity doesn't make a move 100% accurate on an evasive target. Another reason you wouldn't want to gravity is because it has the similar problem to trick room, there is a 5 turn timer (essentially 4 since it takes a turn to set up) that has to be done by a specific setter. But unlike trick room (where your setters are stated to have the lowest speed possible), your team can't take advantage of it because you aren't guaranteed to hit the opponent anyway.
On earlier topics of suspect testing volc/gambit/tera you almost always have to test tera before doing anything else, solely because of how impactful the loss of tera is to everything in the tier. I am personally against the idea of banning tera because the creativity that can be made in team building (my personal favorite is tera-bug Slowking-G). However if tera did get banned, it would be safe to re-introduce volc back to the tier. If Tera doesn't get banned then we test gambit if gambit leaves I see no reason to re-test volc because of all the talk about how volc checks gambit.
Just before I go, I would want to add that I think banning Tera would be a disastrous decision because you would restrict fringe-mons from being able to compete with any of the mainstays (Lando-T, Tusk, Valiant, H-Sam,..) instead of outright banning tera, maybe an idea is restrict the mons that can tera. This solves the problem with tera preview where players would want to keep the tera types hidden as a surprise (like tera-bug slowking-G) while keeping a component of the meta where tera types can be expected on mons, but it also makes it more consistent because you can safely assume that your fighting move with be 4x effective to a gambit (assuming gambit is a mon that gets tera-exempt)
Just before I go, I would want to add that I think banning Tera would be a disastrous decision because you would restrict fringe-mons from being able to compete with any of the mainstays (Lando-T, Tusk, Valiant, H-Sam,..) instead of outright banning tera, maybe an idea is restrict the mons that can tera. This solves the problem with tera preview where players would want to keep the tera types hidden as a surprise (like tera-bug slowking-G) while keeping a component of the meta where tera types can be expected on mons, but it also makes it more consistent because you can safely assume that your fighting move with be 4x effective to a gambit (assuming gambit is a mon that gets tera-exempt)
Hey everyone
What Roaring Moon
sets are you running at the moment? Is RM in any of your teams?
I feel like i struggle fitting all I need into its four moveslots. Roost/DD/Two Attacks seems to always be walled by something- Gambit comes in on Crunch/Acro, Zapdos on Eq/Acro, Enamorus on Eq/Crunch, etc etc
And i feel like as an acrobatics user, Sneasler
is far better, being able to SD whilst having high speed with Unburden seeds/sash. Obviously it has some disadvantages e.g no recovery like RM’s roost, and a set like Acro/Dire/CC gets you walled by Gholdengo 
What do you guys think of RM in the current metagame? do you think choiced sets have some viability? ive been seeing the mon much less post-home.
What Roaring Moon
sets are you running at the moment? Is RM in any of your teams?I feel like i struggle fitting all I need into its four moveslots. Roost/DD/Two Attacks seems to always be walled by something- Gambit comes in on Crunch/Acro, Zapdos on Eq/Acro, Enamorus on Eq/Crunch, etc etc
And i feel like as an acrobatics user, Sneasler
is far better, being able to SD whilst having high speed with Unburden seeds/sash. Obviously it has some disadvantages e.g no recovery like RM’s roost, and a set like Acro/Dire/CC gets you walled by Gholdengo What do you guys think of RM in the current metagame? do you think choiced sets have some viability? ive been seeing the mon much less post-home.
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