Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
On earlier topics of suspect testing volc/gambit/tera you almost always have to test tera before doing anything else, solely because of how impactful the loss of tera is to everything in the tier. I am personally against the idea of banning tera because the creativity that can be made in team building (my personal favorite is tera-bug Slowking-G). However if tera did get banned, it would be safe to re-introduce volc back to the tier. If Tera doesn't get banned then we test gambit if gambit leaves I see no reason to re-test volc because of all the talk about how volc checks gambit.
Just before I go, I would want to add that I think banning Tera would be a disastrous decision because you would restrict fringe-mons from being able to compete with any of the mainstays (Lando-T, Tusk, Valiant, H-Sam,..) instead of outright banning tera, maybe an idea is restrict the mons that can tera. This solves the problem with tera preview where players would want to keep the tera types hidden as a surprise (like tera-bug slowking-G) while keeping a component of the meta where tera types can be expected on mons, but it also makes it more consistent because you can safely assume that your fighting move with be 4x effective to a gambit (assuming gambit is a mon that gets tera-exempt)
I'm in favor of "keep restricted Tera" as at least the first experiment rather than jumping straight to a ban, but the "Restrict who can Tera" idea is almost literally the exact kind of ban policy Smogon tries to avoid and arguably part of the mess of some past problems like Gen 5 Rain and Baton Pass. Having to keep track of "only some mons can do this, others cannot" is overcomplicating the tier list and ridiculously hard to enforce as a precedent or with a consistent tiering philosophy since it feels more designed to keep Mons/Mechanics in the Meta than achieve the best balance of competitive and comprehensible rules. It's also essentially a mechanical version of the Slippery Slope cases people mention such as "Mewtwo without moves over 90 BP" or "Kyogre but it doesn't hold items", as other than Megas (which had specific items to distinguish what was being tiered), the Mechanic is too generic to single out users to keep without access while others get it.
The closest this topic has ever come to being discussed with support by players (and never really entertained by any Tiering council to my knowledge) is with Signature moves like Pre-Home Last Respects (which is the only thing that put the Junk Houndstone in Ubers) and Dire Claw Sneasler (which is a dumb gimmick in my opinion but did raise some issues with how Sleep Clause is handled among other things). Many disagreed with the former since it was mostly done from precedent despite general consensus agreeing the move was disproportionately the Breaking element regardless of kit, while the latter among other things was sparked by discussions around how Sneasler is a fair Metagame presence but Dire Claw specifically introduces unpopular amounts of Status RNG. All this said, the bans would still just be "Last Respects/Dire Claw are not allowed in OU" rather than "Dire Claw is not allowed on Sneasler," which would put the result in line with tiering precedent even if one (reasonably) disagrees with the basis of the decision.
This may be an... odd take, possibly unpopular, also slightly a little a lot late, but the talk about Quick Claw possibly getting banned may start setting a precedent, well more like the Bright Powder ban already set one. My question is, where's the line of what is broken and what isn't?
For example, Quick Claw gives the user a 20% chance to move first in battle. This can be knocked off to prevent the usage of the item, despite this people are considering the item unbalanced.
Paralysis is a status condition that can be inflicted in numerous ways, Thunder Wave and Static being the easiest, and Thunderbolt and Discharge helping to aid it. Paralysis gives you a 25% percent chance of not being able to move at all. This can be avoided by using a Ground or Electric Type sure, but if that isn't an option because you don't want to swap in your Great Tusk against a Rotom-Wash under fear of Hydro Pump, what do you do? Heal Bell isn't exactly common right now, but is Paralysis considered unbalanced? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. There is counterplay to it, like getting good at predicting the plays and playing around those possibilities.
Sleep is a status condition that can also be inflicted, although less frequently. Spore and Sleep Powder being the big two, as Effect Spore really isnt good enough, let's leave that out. Sleep prevents you from moving at all, guaranteed 100% for at least 1 turn. With an average of 2 full turns of not being able to move at all. This can aid an opponent in getting set up for free to sweep your team. Once again, yes there is counterplay, Grass types can't be put to sleep, neither can Gholdengo or Garganacl, but grass types are limited, and those 2 pokemon aren't on every single team, but is sleep unbalanced? Of course not. Once again that would be ridiculous.
Quick Claw can definitely aid in allowing slower powerful pokemon to get a good hit in, but Paralysis can slow down opposing pokemon and do a similar thing. Sticky Webs can slow down an entire team unless the opponent can Spin those webs away. What I'm saying is Quick Claw is just a cheese item. It's not particularly special or overpowered, it's annoying, but so is half the damn things we see in this god forsaken game we all love. We can't just go around banning stuff just because theres a % chance it could screw the opponent over, it's like when people talked about banning freeze in SSOU when Kyurem was around because "statistically you can get a freeze per game and you're screwed if that procs", yeah you will be, deal with it, tons of things have a % chance of doing something detrimental to your soul and psyche. Plus, Quick Claw prevents pokemon from running important items that can be crucial for a team. Boots and Choice Items, Leftovers for recovery on mons without it, Booster Energy, hell even AV. If you rely too much on Quick Claw, you're going to miss out on a lot of opportunities in a game. I've messed around with Quick Claw and I just don't get it. It's decent for sure, yeah, you can cheese some victories out people, but so could Flyinium-Z Mirror Move Physical Tapu Koko in Gen7, hell a lot of Z-move strats, and just cheese strats in general can squeeze wins out.
This could just be the greatest dogwater take of all time, but I can't wrap my head around the ban argument for this item. It's just mid.
1. No one is arguing Quick Claw is overpowered. It's not, it's bad. Having things that take the control out of the players for who wins the game, for no other reason other than "we have other luck elements", is dumb. Quick Claw and similar items have no other real meta effects, making these items easily bannable, not less bannable.
2. Paralysis has non-RNG effects that are what the majority of paralysis fishing is done for. Paralyzing a Dragapult can make it a much worse Pokemon overall, and is a tool that slower teams have in order to deal with this. A good team can deal with this with things such as Electric-Type for all moves, Ground-Types unless its not an Electric-Type move Pokemon, berries to remove paralysis, Tera Electric, or letting a Pokemon that relies on its speed/turns less be your paralysis absorber (for instance, Amoongus).
3. There is absolutely precedent to ban Sleep, and I am not even against that. Gen 5 OU has banned it as the mechanics are worse, but the luck-based element was not what caused it. Sleep is just pretty overpowered, and if not for the storing sleep turns, it'd probably be banned from most generations of Pokemon. Hell, banning Sleep would in my opinion be preferable to our "Sleep Clause" which actively goes against policy for keeping mechanics the same as on cart.
4. We already decided where this line was drawn with King's Rock, a singular item that only adds a chance to remove the opponent's counterplay. This is not debatable. An item like Quick Claw was banned only a few years ago, by a similar council, last gen. Singular items that only add luck-based elements can be banned, and that is not contradictory with Smogon Policy, or how most see Pokemon as a game with luck-based elements. This is also the gen where Scald was prominent, the Freeze discussions, so that makes a very solid line for how the Policy has turned out.
5. "It's just cheese" is not more reason to not ban something, it's more reason to ban something. Your counter-example of other cheese is also bad. Not only were Z-Moves actually pretty controversial at first, but this is just, a tech. Tech isn't the same as cheese, cheese is using tactics (most of which are banned, like Baton Pass) to bypass a better player's strategy/team/play by using something to try and win despite having no skillful advantage. For instance, trying to find a team that Baton Pass wins on lead against (they couldn't fit Haze, RIP), Arena Trap stall, Evasion strats (Minimize Clefable woooooo!), Sand / Snow Veil (Didn't account for the Garchomp Substitute Veil set and you missed, GG), Moody, Shed Tail, etc. etc.
6. "We can't just go around banning stuff just because theres a % chance it could screw the opponent over"
1. No one is arguing Quick Claw is overpowered. It's not, it's bad. Having things that take the control out of the players for who wins the game, for no other reason other than "we have other luck elements", is dumb. Quick Claw and similar items have no other real meta effects, making these items easily bannable, not less bannable.
2. Paralysis has non-RNG effects that are what the majority of paralysis fishing is done for. Paralyzing a Dragapult can make it a much worse Pokemon overall, and is a tool that slower teams have in order to deal with this. A good team can deal with this with things such as Electric-Type for all moves, Ground-Types unless its not an Electric-Type move Pokemon, berries to remove paralysis, Tera Electric, or letting a Pokemon that relies on its speed/turns less be your paralysis absorber (for instance, Amoongus).
3. There is absolutely precedent to ban Sleep, and I am not even against that. Gen 5 OU has banned it as the mechanics are worse, but the luck-based element was not what caused it. Sleep is just pretty overpowered, and if not for the storing sleep turns, it'd probably be banned from most generations of Pokemon. Hell, banning Sleep would in my opinion be preferable to our "Sleep Clause" which actively goes against policy for keeping mechanics the same as on cart.
4. We already decided where this line was drawn with King's Rock, a singular item that only adds a chance to remove the opponent's counterplay. This is not debatable. An item like Quick Claw was banned only a few years ago, by a similar council, last gen. Singular items that only add luck-based elements can be banned, and that is not contradictory with Smogon Policy, or how most see Pokemon as a game with luck-based elements. This is also the gen where Scald was prominent, the Freeze discussions, so that makes a very solid line for how the Policy has turned out.
5. "It's just cheese" is not more reason to not ban something, it's more reason to ban something. Your counter-example of other cheese is also bad. Not only were Z-Moves actually pretty controversial at first, but this is just, a tech. Tech isn't the same as cheese, cheese is using tactics (most of which are banned, like Baton Pass) to bypass a better player's strategy/team/play by using something to try and win despite having no skillful advantage. For instance, trying to find a team that Baton Pass wins on lead against (they couldn't fit Haze, RIP), Arena Trap stall, Evasion strats (Minimize Clefable woooooo!), Sand / Snow Veil (Didn't account for the Garchomp Substitute Veil set and you missed, GG), Moody, Shed Tail, etc. etc.
6. "We can't just go around banning stuff just because theres a % chance it could screw the opponent over"
1. Unbalanced and Overpowered are two different words. Although Uncompetitive is probably the better word I should've used. The "We have other RNG elements" wasn't my exact reasoning. It's that we have other similar RNG elements. Paralysis, Sleep, Flinching ect all also have RNG effects that can change the game in the same severity that Quick Claw can.
2. The first point I actually brought up later in that post, the slowdown is huge for sure, but I don't think it would be nearly as popular without the 25% full para chance. A good team can also deal with Quick Claw, Knock Off is commonly run on Tusk and Physical Valiant, can also be run on Physical Hoopa-Unbound. Trick sets can also stop a Quick Claw, and since most Quick Claw pokemon run little to no speed investment, a choice scarf tricked on isn't going to be enough speed to compensate.
3. Sleep is annoying, but definitely not bannable imo.
4. Never said it was contradictory with Smogons ban guidelines, and just because something was banned previously doesn't mean it should be banned again. It's why things get unbanned at the start of new generations, as these things might not be as overwhelming as they once were, although I don't believe it was good enough to be banned in the first place.
5. Cheese doesn't necessarily make something more or less bannable, I was just saying its a cheese strat. There are bad cheese strats, there are good cheese strats, but Quick Claw is not on the same level as things like Sand Veil.
6. I can read sir, no need to just be blatantly rude, but the point here is that Quick Claw just doesn't benefit you enough to make it worth running, you are more likely to lose more games than you win because it just isn't a good thing to rely on such a thing. There are so many RNG % chances in the game that can screw you over, and Quick Claw just isn't good enough to justify the ban imo.
The Storm That Is Approaching: Why Thunderus-Therian is a Sleeper Pick In SV OU
Ok y’all, this is a long one so bare with me.
Competitive History
BW2
Thunderus-T took the OU meta by storm in its debut generation after its Incarnate cousin was banned from the tier. Sporting Zapdos’ offensive and defensive typing but with even higher power. In BW OU, Thundy-T is known for its ability to absolutely shred defensive cores. Sand Balance structures had a difficult time maneuvering past Thundy’s coverage and raw power. Drill and Ferro fell to Focus Miss. Lando, Loom, and Gliscor fell to HP Ice. Jellicent and Skarm wanted nothing to do with Tbolt or Thunder. Gastro and Toad got sniped by a potential Grass Knot. Even tier staple Latios wasn’t a safe answer as HP Ice 2HKOs after rocks and could get Pursuit trapped by Ttar. Thundy was seen on Sand but most commonly gets used on Rain due to its breaking power and defensive typing, fending off Jellicent, Ferro, and Breloom which otherwise give rain trouble. Sub-Thundy took advantage of Ferro and Gliscor to freely sit on them while not needing to slot Focus Miss for the former, and could instead run NP. Its Boltbeam coverage at +2 wasn’t walled by anything besides Gastro and Toad. There was also AgilThundy which turned the tides against offensive teams, but the most common Thundy set was All-Out Attacker or Protect + Three Attack. Protect helped Thundy scout choiced attacks while gaining a bit of Lefties recovery. Thundy was limited by a few key weaknesses. Its vulnerability to rocks, fast offensive threats like Keldeo, Zam, or Latios, and Chople Ttar. Currently it sits in the A tier in the BW2 OU VR next to Reuni, Skarm, and the other Rain Staple Tentacruel.
ORAS
Drizzle no longer summoning permanent rain, Tbolt and HP having their BP reduced by 10 meant Thundurus-T wouldn’t retain the same competitive dominance as last gen, not only that but Thundy-I returned to OU and this time it stayed in OU. Thundurus-I sported 111 base speed which got the jump on Megagross, Keldeo, and the Lati twins. Prankster T-Wave was also fantastic for crippling faster targets. Zapdos also returned to OU, reclaiming its superiority over Thundy-T with the newly buffed Defog. Thundy-T had 20 points more SpA than its Incarnate form and Volt Absorb, and that was about it. Despite this competition, Thundurus-Therian managed to carve itself a solid niche over its competitors, making use of its higher dmg output on Webs and Screens HO. It also provided these teams with an electric immunity from Thundy-I and T-Wave spam. Thundy-T currently ranks in B+ in the ORAS OU VR next to former tier staples Jellicent and Latios.
USUM
This time around Thundy-T outdoes its Incarnate form, but now Gen 7 introduced Tapu Koko who effortlessly proved to be even stronger competition for it than Thundy-I. Thundurus-Therian carved a smaller niche to differentiate itself from Koko. Thundy-T went back to utilizing Hidden Power, but this time for HP Flying to snipe the usual Koko checks like Mega-Venu, Bulu, and AV Tang. Thundy was able to mow past Ferro with Focus Blast or Fightinium-Z which also had the added benefit of hitting Chansey hard. It was flawed however, rocks and faster offensive threats were still a problem, and it isn’t particularly fond of Mega-Latias who is a common Balance staple. Overall, Thundy-T ended up in B- outperforming Thundy-I.
SS
Returning from Crown Tundra, the transition into the Switch was both a blessing and a curse. HDB offsets one of its main weaknesses, further helped by the increased Defog distribution of Gen 7. It also gained Weather Ball for Rain, but it lost Hidden Power for hitting Ground Types and on top of that, Zapdos gained Hurricane, outclassing it offensively. However, through the existence of Zapdos, it manages to find a niche in Rain. Zapdos was incredibly dangerous on Rain and for Rain. Most rain teams lacked the ability to switch into Hurricane + Thunder + Weather Ball. Barra risked getting paralyzed by Static while Ferro couldn’t take repeated Hurricanes. This is where Thundy-T comes in, being one of the best checks to Zapdos in rain while boasting similar offensive power. Thundy-T found a niche on Rain not only as a breaker with a ground immunity, but also an electric immunity. Thundurus-Therian ended in a placement lower than the previous Gen in C+ tier, but it deserves to be higher imo.
SV
Now we come to the current gen. The Home meta just started a month ago and we are still trying to figure stuff out, but I believe there is a lightning in a bottle that is hidden in plain sight, a sleeper pick that can bring the storm to the team. If it wasn’t made obvious, its Thundurus-Therian. So here me out.
“Why use this over Zapdos?” you might be asking. While Static and reliable recovery are much more valuable in the current metagame, Thundy-T fills its own niche as a wallbreaker, a more explosive version of Zapdos if you will. The biggest change for Thundy this gen is Terastilization which allows Thundy to finally utilize Flying STAB via Tera Blast, which due to Tera increasing the STAB bonus to 2x, hits just as hard as Zapdos’ STAB Hurricane. Thundy-T can also afford to go Modest and still outrun Jolly Bax and Tusk. Nasty Plot and Taunt help further its ability to break open Balance cores. The set I want to highlight however is Choice Specs. Previously this set was unoptimal because it didn’t have a spammable STAB move to leech off of like Pult, Enam, or WW, this time it does. The damage from Tera Flying Tera Blast is worth burning Tera for the raw damage it brings.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 210-248 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 170-201 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 116 SpD Garganacl: 150-177 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (After a Volt Switch or some chip, it has a decent chance of 2HKOing on the switch)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 226-266 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 207-244 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 168-198 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 352-416 (94.8 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 194-230 (37.7 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 178-210 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
However it isn’t enough for a wallbreaker to hit everything hard, they have to be able to provide some form of defensive utility, otherwise their switch in opportunities are limited. Hoopa-U is an amazing wallbreaker but it often can’t find switch in opportunities outside of double switches or pivoting. Thundy-T is an excellent Zapdos switch in, healing off of Discharges or Volt Switches, resisting Hurricane, and threatening to OHKO/2HKO with Specs Tbolt. It also sports Zapdos’ famed Electric/Flying typing. Resisting Fighting and Steel, with an immunity to Ground. Thundy-T is also not completely reliant on Tera. G-Knot generally does a good job sniping the Ground types in the tier not named Clodsire while Tbolt and Volt Switch still do a big chunk to Glowking’s HP. Plus NP + Grass Knot cleanly one shots Garg, or you can spec in Wildbolt Storm which is basically Electric Stone Edge and OHKO after a NP.
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Wildbolt Storm vs. 252 HP / 116 SpD Garganacl: 373-441 (92.3 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Rip Bozo)
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian: 177-208 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Thundurus-Therian: 192-226 (64.2 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 86-102 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 105-123 (35.1 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This set aims to return back to the sets it ran back in BW2 and ORAS. A majority of the offensive metagame is hit SE by either Electric, Flying, Fairy, or Ice. At +2 speed it outpaces Valiant after a Booster Energy, Scarf Meow, and Pult. It finds a role on HO teams as a threat to annoying matchups like Dozo and Zapdos that can also wallbreak. Tera Flying for the raw power it brings but Tera Ice might be the better option for threatening an OHKO on Zapdos, Pult, Lando, and Tusk. It also lets it resist Ice Shards from Bax and Tera Ice from Sandy Shocks. Tera Fairy is also another option that OHKOs the aforementioned targets (Tusk, Pult, Zama) but also snipes Bax, and Wake while letting it resist Sucker from Gambit.
Teammates
Pult loves a mon that can break through special walls, especially Garg. The two can also form a deadly Voltturn core to wear down the opposition.
The fairies enjoy Thundy’s ability to 2HKO Glowking with Specs or Nasty Plot. Valiant appreciates Thundy’s ability to punish Zapdos and Unaware walls.
Thundy and Hamurott form a nasty offensive core. Samu sets up spikes that make switching into Thundy even harder while threatening Glowking and Garg.
Zama and Thundy are a match in heaven. Thundy punishes Zapdos its biggest check while Zama protects Thundy from Bax.
Another strong paring. Thundy is able to 2HKO its biggest checks in Zapdos, Ghold, and Glowking. Sneasler in return forms a solid voltturn core that can bait in typical Thundy targets like Zapdos and Tusk.
Verdict
To sum up Thundy’s role in the current metagame, it serves as a wallbreaker on BO with defensive utility as a check to Zapdos that can 2HKO mons Zapdos wouldn’t be able to like Glowking and Clodsire with Specs Tera Flying. On HO it can fill a similar role while doubling as a cleaner against weakened teams with a Double Dance or Agility + Three Attacks set. The chaotic SV metagame has gems that are yet to be unearthed due to the new toy syndrome. We’ve seen mons like A-Muk, Sandy Shocks, Molt and its Galarian cousin find success in the metagame, I believe Thundurus-Therian’s potential is untapped in this metagame.
1. No one is arguing Quick Claw is overpowered. It's not, it's bad. Having things that take the control out of the players for who wins the game, for no other reason other than "we have other luck elements", is dumb. Quick Claw and similar items have no other real meta effects, making these items easily bannable, not less bannable.
5. "It's just cheese" is not more reason to not ban something, it's more reason to ban something. Your counter-example of other cheese is also bad. Not only were Z-Moves actually pretty controversial at first, but this is just, a tech. Tech isn't the same as cheese, cheese is using tactics (most of which are banned, like Baton Pass) to bypass a better player's strategy/team/play by using something to try and win despite having no skillful advantage. For instance, trying to find a team that Baton Pass wins on lead against (they couldn't fit Haze, RIP), Arena Trap stall, Evasion strats (Minimize Clefable woooooo!), Sand / Snow Veil (Didn't account for the Garchomp Substitute Veil set and you missed, GG), Moody, Shed Tail, etc. etc.
You make a great point and I don't disagree with the idea that if it removes agency from a player, than the item should be banned. However, the item takes up the item slot, so there is an opportunity cost of either hitting the 20% and being faster than the other player, or there is the 80% do nothing. If you use a guaranteed 2HKO that is a a 4% chance of claw activating. Then is a 16% chance of you going get one activation during that time frame, either on the first turn then going first on the second turn or first on the first turn and last on the second turn. Finally it is a 64% chance that the claw doesn't activate at all. That makes it a 20% chance that claw does something good for you and you get an advantage but while taking a hit, while 80% the item is doing nothing. Personally, I want this item in so I can take advantage of the people that think that this item will propel them into higher ranks when in reality, they are only lucky 20% of the time.
Sure ban the item, I won't care, but if you leave it in it is free elo to farm, and it acts as a tech much like z-moves because you are running the opportunity cost of not having an item, hell its even worse than z-moves because there is an 80% chance to not even work.
Under those posts also talks about how people flinch and confuse fish which acts on the exact same luck bait, even the UU council spoke about it how it adds niches to pokemon that don't see play. Don't just ban an item because it's not fun, then we might as well get rid of critial hits because it adds nothing to the game outside of negative RNG. I get that the item is lucky, but its a choice that comes at a price, for example you can't run regenerator on slowbro if you go for QCQD, along the same lines you have to run worse moves (hurricane, stone edge) to get the luck based effects (confuse, high crit rate).
If you want to ban things that make you feel bad, then there would be nothing left to enjoy in this game and it would become a stale laddering experience because everything that makes you feel bad makes the other person feel good.
i totally agree that risk management is a core part of the game - the difference to me between the likes of thunderbolt/ice beam/flamethrower & quick claw/king’s rock/evasion is that there are buffers available for the former, often in the form of midgrounds, that mitigate their impact.
for example, although it was less than ideal, clefable/pex/ferrothorn/etc. taking a random thunderbolt paralysis is a tough situation, but most of the time, it’s not game-ending scenario. a player has recourse in these instances.
when it comes to the likes of king’s rock & quick claw, though, it is more often than not the end of the game should the user get lucky - and even if it’s not, they still got a totally free kill & kept their boosted sweeper, & the same scenario has to play out once more.
basically, with stuff like quick claw, the risk management aspect is reduced to praying on one (or two at best) turn(s) that you don’t lose on the spot to something outside the control of both players - that is to say, it is a fake sort of risk management. i don’t think the same can be said for moves with secondary effects.
also, there are zero negative consequences in banning quick claw. it is purely beneficial from the standpoint of promoting competition.
tldr: random freezes/paras/flinches/whatever leave recourse to a player & are actually accountable for in play. quick claw & king’s rock are not the same. one group is conducive to, or at least not directly at odds with, interesting & novel play, the other is not.
also
“muh opportunity cost” is totally irrelevant. nobody disputes that there are better items. the issue is that quick claw exists for one reason & one reason only: to take agency out of the hands of players.
not even gonna talk about how silly the comparison between quick claw & zmoves is. different things are different.
Evasion moves are bad because you are guaranteed that the evasion will be boosted when you use minimize, you are not guaranteed going first with quick claw. Anyone who defends evasion just wants to abuse it because ‘haha can’t hit me’
Well actually, we can kind of see how people reacted to evasion in recent times because only relatively recently were Evasion Abilities and Items banned. And for most part they went under the radars of most people, probably because it was rare to see Bright Powder or Sand Veil being used and some people (including me) thought they were banned anyways. Once it got onto people’s attention, majority of people (including me) agreed that it shouldn’t have a purpose in the meta.
Likewise I think most people are on the side of “Quick Claw isn’t even that good, but is still uncompetitive”.
Evasion moves are bad because you are guaranteed that the evasion will be boosted when you use minimize, you are not guaranteed going first with quick claw. Anyone who defends evasion just wants to abuse it because ‘haha can’t hit me’
Evasion moves are bad because you are guaranteed that the evasion will be boosted when you use minimize, you are not guaranteed going first with quick claw. Anyone who defends evasion just wants to abuse it because ‘haha can’t hit me’
A more valid comparison would be "you're not guaranteed that the opponent will miss after one Double Team", because at the end of the day it's still RNG. Obviously the accuracy of a move before any evasion boosts matters too but that's kinda beside the point
Yeah that's where the argument that evasion strats are any different from QC/KR kinda falls apart. Evasion as a strategy for winning games may be shitty and unreliable but when it works there's no real way for the opponent to deal with it 90% of the time, and it's really the same with the claw. I'm usually on the opposite side as ant4456when it comes to stuff like Tera but I agree with them that most of this discussion is no different than the King's Rock one and it's already been settled.
I think the major difference is that valliant can't run away with the game the same way volcarona can if it's given two or more turns to set up (the turn it teras, and then the next turn).
Valiant can under the right circumstances even without free turns, but the player has to set them, just like you wouldn't lead with Volc and 6-0 a serious team, it needed positioning based on its set to win.
The biggest reason I support Valiant but hate on Volc is what the moth can do outside of tera on top of it's offensive sets. Valiant can be either physical or special and can run mixed sets, but it's frail, has difficulty setting up, and if it's forced out after the use of Booster energy then it's a major momentum loss.
Volc has no such issues, but on top of that it has 2 forms of reliable recovery, the best set up move in the game, and a Unique Fire type move which in this meta is a blessing because you can proc a special attack boost at the cost of the extra initial damage other fire moves provide. It also has Bulky sets which can opt to Burn the opponent. And since it even has Flame Body, just attacking it with a physical move can cause burn (contact, but you get the idea). And keep in mind, I haven't touched on Tera yet.
Valiant imo is just to much of a glass cannon. It can pick it's threats, but unlike Volc it can't adapt to the situation without good support. And while Valiant has an amazing ability with booster energy (cause no way your getting electric terrain up), it is reliant on a single use item. It's functionally an Unburden user in that regards, great when it works and decent otherwise. But if your forced out, you lose major momentum. But not with Volc, you can keep bringing it in since it's nearly always running Boots. Sure you don't like to give up your Quiver dances, but with Giga Drain and morning sun at it's disposal it can outlast and potentially reset up.
Valiant is an extremely good pokemon, but volc can ultimately pick it's match ups better because it's Grass/Fire coverage moves hit basically everything not named Heatran for neutral. So if something it can't deal with comes along, Tera Blast becomes stupid good. And while Valiant can run Tera blast, it has such a vast array of coverage moves that are superior. Therefore, while it can punch holes through teams, it can't systematically destroy its checks with it's Frail bulk. Valiant can't reliably run a "defensive tera" because doing so might still get it Ko'd, so instead it runs the Tera type that works best with the offensive move it wants to use. Thats why Fighting, Fairy, Ghost, and Electric are such common Tera types. Because Valiant has much better moves than Tera Blast given to it and doesn't want to have a 80 BP normal move that may or may not have the correct Tera for use each game.
It is a valid take, however they are still very similar and Valiant still has a huge advantage over Volc, Valiant most of the time doesn't need to tera or run tera blast in order to win because its base typing is good agaisnt a huge part of the tier, while some people agrees that Volc wouldn't be OP without tera. That alone makes Valiant more flexible than Volc in several scenarios, yeah it loses booster energy if it switches but it already has a solid speed tier which makes it not being as dependent of it like Volc dependents on boots (especially in this meta without much removal options).
For me they are similar since their advantages one has over the other balance with its disavantages, in the end of the day both can sweep teams giving the right set with very little support but if they don't have the right set they may just straight up be dead weight on the team if they don't have the right coverage and the opponent plays well.
It comes down to the item simply being pure cheese, or BS. Whichever you call it. It's entirely RNG and doesn't really promote strategic or skill since it doesn't have any interaction with either player during battle. It's just RNG deciding at random "okay this ignores speed tiers this turn".
The whole debate goes around this, but I need to ask, something really needs to be done? Stuff like Cute Charm is just pure "cheese", "Match up fish (for the rival bringing Pokémon with 100% male ratio)" and other stuff that is always said, but in the case of Enamorus it is used because you can't run calm mind with contrary, but since it has nothing to do with the ability itself we should ban it under the same argumment? Or if we want to going even more further, we shouldn't just also ban contrary since it allows to boost evasion when the rival uses defog? Well, IMO of course no, even if those things can be considered "cheese" "unhealthy" "skill-less" or whatever you want to call them, they aren't really an issue for anybody since honestly in Pokémon there are other rng elements which are far more BS and we have to deal with them on Pokémon with high usage. Action would be needed if they were more consistent or would allow something like 100% unusable shitmons winning some matches because of luck, but that doesn't happen with cute charm, contrary or quick claw, but banning them while other stuff in the tier needs to be checked rn would feel super silly.
Stuff like Cute Charm is just pure "cheese", "Match up fish (for the rival bringing Pokémon with 100% male ratio)" and other stuff that is always said, but in the case of Enamorus it is used because you can't run calm mind with contrary, but since it has nothing to do with the ability itself we should ban it under the same argumment?
This is a rather silly comparison because this has the most accessible and nonintrusive counterplay of all: setting mons to male. It doesn't harm you or restrict you at all to do so.
Not sure what you are trying to argue. Making a risk switching in a contrary mon in this example is still more of a risk, and thus strategy, than an item which passively lets a mon ignore speed tiers 20% of the time, or similar passive RNG items.
Action would be needed if they were more consistent or would allow something like 100% unusable shitmons winning some matches because of luck, but that doesn't happen with cute charm, contrary or quick claw, but banning them while other stuff in the tier needs to be checked rn would feel super silly.
King's rock was hardly allowing unusable shitmons to win games last gen and still got axed. And again trying consistency as a counterargument when discussing items which purely are RNG items and have no real skill merit. Evasion strats are hardly consistent as they rely on RNG too but i don't think you'd find people that seriously think they should be allowed in any form.
