Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

Banning 30-40 mons is hardly salvaging the tier. It's essentially acknowledging that the tier is dead. These bans will get more and more ridiculous, and plenty of meta staples will get, along with few harmless mons who wouldn't even be NDOU without tera

Given the size of Natdex, the moment you ban a mon, something else will take its place. It's just endless culling after culling, quickbans after quickbans. There are a ton of things flying under the radar right now due to other broke mons going wild.
As much as I hate Tera, imo if anything can kill the tier it would not be tera, but rather pple being doomers and ranting over how they think the tier is absolutely unfixable and nothing should be done anymore.

Bans have an impact on the tier: yes, the tier is in an unbalanced state right now, but saying that no progress has been done since we had absolutely insane shit like Regieleki, Chi-Yu, Deoxys-Speed, Regieleki, or even the fucking abomination that was Shedinja is just a blatant exaggeration. Even more recent bans, such as Annihilape or Espathra, pushed the tier in the right direction.

I believe it is time to stop crying about it, move on, and do what we can do to save the tier - and we will save the tier.
 
As much as I hate Tera, imo if anything can kill the tier it would not be tera, but rather pple being doomers and ranting over how they think the tier is absolutely unfixable and nothing should be done anymore.

Bans have an impact on the tier: yes, the tier is in an unbalanced state right now, but saying that no progress has been done since we had absolutely insane shit like Regieleki, Chi-Yu, Deoxys-Speed, Regieleki, or even the fucking abomination that was Shedinja is just a blatant exaggeration. Even more recent bans, such as Annihilape or Espathra, pushed the tier in the right direction.

I believe it is time to stop crying about it, move on, and do what we can do to save the tier - and we will save the tier.

The council for natdex OU fucked up, you botched the gxe/elo reqs. OWN UP TO IT. THEY SHOULD BE FAR HIGHER IN A FORMAT LIKE THIS WITH LOTS OF CASUALS
 
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You guys fucked up, you botched the gxe reqs. OWN UP TO IT. THEY SHOULD BE FAR HIGHER IN A FORMAT LIKE THIS WITH LOTS OF CASUALS
In my opinion, we should move from ladder reqs to tour reqs anyway. Anyone that knows how to pilot 1 team against the random bullshit you can see on the ladder is able to get reqs, and this for sure does not prove that you are informed enough to vote. What is the point of reqs otherwise? And old gens already do that, so why couldn't we?

I think keeping ladder reqs and just making them harder will not help because 1. you still only have to know how to pilot 1 team, which absolutely do not show that you have the knowledge to vote and 2. the natdex ladder still runs very ridiculous things even very high ladder

(To be clear I am not on council so I'm not speaking on their behalf, those are just my personal opinions on the matter)
 
In contrast from what I have heard climbing gen 9 ou's ladder is far harder and reqs are higher, and if action is taken there the council needs to own up and resuspect tera again, because it was clear the vote was botched. Natdex OU is way too easy to climb as it is, and seeing it as anything competitive is impossible when players can just get high GXE without being a good player. My point being is, if the gen 9 ou suspect goes differently, the council has to own up and run another test with far higher gxe and game win reqs like last gen, otherwise natdex will die as a format

Whether or not it's easy to go up natdex ladder (and to be fair, it is for a number of reasons), that doesn't detract from the fact that the people who got revs, did so while abiding by rules. Plenty of people aren't enthused about the outcome of the suspect, but undermining the results of the recent suspect does nothing but instill distrust. It's not preferable but what happened has happened, and the best that can be done at this point in time is focus on what can be attended to. It's also immensely disrespectful (and frankly conceited of you) to accuse the council of botching the suspect.

There is of course an argument to be made that the purpose of suspect tests isn't being reflected by how easy ladder is (such as being to prove you have a grasp on the metagame and having a competent skill level). And to be fair, I think to an extent the suspect shows that there can be improvements made for the sake of future suspects. But again,

The council for natdex OU fucked up, you botched the gxe/elo reqs. OWN UP TO IT. THEY SHOULD BE FAR HIGHER IN A FORMAT LIKE THIS WITH LOTS OF CASUALS

bashing council and lashing out at them when they're doing the best they can is helping no one.

Bans have an impact on the tier: yes, the tier is in an unbalanced state right now, but saying that no progress has been done since we had absolutely insane shit like Regieleki, Chi-Yu, Deoxys-Speed, Regieleki, or even the fucking abomination that was Shedinja is just a blatant exaggeration. Even more recent bans, such as Annihilape or Espathra, pushed the tier in the right direction.

R8 puts it best. Yes there are still a lot of contentious issues, but the effort that has been out forth by council through the bans of many broken threats already has made the tier better bit by bit. It's a long road, but the effort is very much appreciated.
 
In my opinion, we should move from ladder reqs to tour reqs anyway. Anyone that knows how to pilot 1 team against the random bullshit you can see on the ladder is able to get reqs, and this for sure does not prove that you are informed enough to vote. What is the point of reqs otherwise? And old gens already do that, so why couldn't we?

I think keeping ladder reqs and just making them harder will not help because 1. you still only have to know how to pilot 1 team, which absolutely do not show that you have the knowledge to vote and 2. the natdex ladder still runs very ridiculous things even very high ladder

(To be clear I am not on council so I'm not speaking on their behalf, those are just my personal opinions on the matter)
To my knowledge, older gens don't have the same active playerbases that the newer gens have; hence why the tourney scene largely resolves tiering issues there. Some statistics for the number of total battles played across various metagames in June for reference.

OU: 1999363
National Dex OU: 840683
Gen 5 OU: 46752
Gen 7 OU: 161905
 
It's pretty amazing seeing all this go down. I'm pretty sure that approx 40% of the winning vote only had 2 posts which is kinda crazy.

Not every active player is an active smogon user, especially if you can notice that English might not be their first language, but it doesn't mean that they're not a NDOU player and don't have the right to get reqs. tbh I'd definitely choose revealing tera type over no tiering action if there were other options.

Just not to make this a shit post, with tera staying now, I'd like to mention some obvious broken mons in the tier:

1. gambit. With the notorious sd+ko+sp set, this mon is like the top2 game killer in the metagame, if not the best. And the AV set is also more than decent as pursuit can often surprise mons like pult/ghold/lele, etc.

2. pult and ghold. the only reason why these are still not out of control is gambit. the former has extremely good speed tier and it's hard to know from team preview if it's dd/specs/hex or something else. the latter beats stall and makes unhealthy stuff like boots-spam actually a thing.

3. garg. garg is one of the best hazard setter rn. The spdef set can easily checks sun/rain and give every enemy a salt cure. The IronPress/Curse set is also a huge threat to teams without strong sub users like zama and ghold or teams without cloak which i think it's a trash item.


EDIT: forgot to mention sneasler. dire claw is like the NO.1 rnb lol.
 
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So it seems like natdex is destined to be a pet mod clowned on for the rest of gen huh? Loving how around half of the DNB votes were by accounts with literally 2 posts lmao. Tera ban would have solved pretty much all the problems with the current metagame AND allowed for several currently banned mons to be unbanned but this very skillful and intelligent community wouldn't have it. I guess we're left here trying to salvage this tier however we can.

:cresselia: :mew: :polteageist: Stored power needs to go. Its abusers are fine without tera but since a tera ban is out of the question we have to look at the other common link. Tera poison stored power cresselia and mew are certainly not healthy parts of the metagame at all, while tera fighting polteageist beats all the previous counterplay it had back in gen 8. Either you ban these mons or you ban stored power. And there's no way you ban cresselia and mew and teapot lmao.
:kingambit: Kingambit holds the tier together by trapping the ghosts, being extremely easy to slap on literally any team, and crushing a lot of the stupid cheese running around. Unfortuntely, teraing into a different typing lets it beat its already limited pool of checks in Tusk and Zamazenta while tera dark boosts its power to absurd levels. This mon is immensely important to metagame health but is itself stupid with tera, so it should be suspected moving forward. However, I'm not sure how inclined the council is to suspect things anymore due to the nd playerbase having clearly demonstrated its incompetence.
:dragapult: This mon is invaluable speed control for the tier but unfortunately becomes broken if kingambit goes. Should probably be suspected anyway since tera dragon draco lacks reliable counterplay and QBed if kingambit goes.
:gholdengo: This mon is also extremely important for the tier as it is the linchpin of hazard stack teams and provides a unique defensive profile that allows it to act as one of the few checks to scary mons such as Sneasler and Tapu Lele. Without tera, it has plenty of counterplay, most notably in Kingambit but also Gliscor, Clodsire, Ting-Lu, Volcarona, and Heatran. Unfortunately, tera for some reason is staying in this tier so if it teras into say a water type for example, it is actually able to use a lot of these would be checks as set up fodder (or turn revenge killing attempts into another lost mon). Not to mention if Kingambit leaves, then Gholdengo becomes much more difficult to deal with. Should also be suspected.
:sneasler: Unburden is broken with tera. Dire claw isn't even the issue imo, it's that its tera flying unburden set is basically mega hawlucha and runs through teams without gholdengo. You can also see different teras such as ground, dark, ghost, electric, ice, whatever. It doesn't matter if they are suboptimal- they exist and u will or have run into one of them and lost your check and as a result the game. Needs to be suspected.
:volcarona: This mon is dishonest. Volcarona has always been the matchup moth, but now you also have to play around its several different viable tera types such as grass, water, ground. It's less dominant than in svou and fine for now but people should absolutely keep an eye on it.
:garganacl: This mon is very dishonest in a different way. Tera lets it escape its poor defensive typing and turns it into a nearly unkillable chip damage machine. It is extremely annoying to maneuver around and has by itself made covert cloak a real option on pokemon. So many teams just fold to this mon so hard and in extreme cases get 1v6ed. Worth watching for now.
:zamazenta: I honestly think this mon is probably fine even with tera but people should keep an eye on it as if both ghosts go, there isn't really a splashable cc or body press immunity anymore.

On another note, Ursaluna and Roaring Moon probably deserve suspect tests since the former probably shouldn't have been banned in the first place and the latter was banned in a much more chaotic meta with 1.5x booster. Of course, these 2 mons would have been instantly unbanned alongside Melmetal, Eleki, and Shedinja if tera had been banned.

Seriously, all of this could have been avoided with a tera ban.
 
Yeah it's about time we reverse Ursaluna and Roaring Moon ban. They aren't even broken in OU where the power level is lower with fewer walls. Roaring Moon is slower and weaker than Sneasler by a good margin, for example

The absolute last thing we should be doing is unbanning anything when there are a host of problematic elements in the tier. That would just be a failure of prioritization. Furthermore, while I won't comment on Ursaluna, you can go down the list of pokemon on the vr from S through the A ranks and see how many pokemon Moon beats post Dragon Dance thanks to tera. Not to mention the range of different kinds of DD sets it can run thanks to tera which let it pick what it beats.

With tera staying at this point, unbanning Moon would be one of the most foolish and irresponsible things to do, especially when so many issues still exist.
 
To my knowledge, older gens don't have the same active playerbases that the newer gens have; hence why the tourney scene largely resolves tiering issues there. Some statistics for the number of total battles played across various metagames in June for reference.

OU: 1999363
National Dex OU: 840683
Gen 5 OU: 46752
Gen 7 OU: 161905
To be clear, I mentioned old gens as examples of metagames doing that. Of course, our reasons to implement tour reqs would be very different then old gens' reasons, but I felt like it was still very important to to not that this would not be something unprecedented
 
quick post addressing the most obviously broken pokemon that I believe should be quickbanned asap,

First off is Kingambit, tera dark sucker punches being able to reliably knock out resists and tera fairy/flying/fire turning every attempt to revenge kill this mon into a 50/50 makes it extremely unhealthy. Also doesn't help that this thing being so bulky means that even if it loses the 50/50 it can at worst switch out and try again later, but what usually happens is that the mon trying to rk just dies. This mon is very clearly broken.

Somewhat related to Kingambit is Dragapult, as the former is really the only thing that kept it from wreaking havoc on the tier. There are some really funny tera specs draco and sball calcs, and without gambit making it useless every other game the dd set can also thrive. If (when) Kingambit goes, this mon needs to follow suit.

Finally, while these first two seem to be the prirmary candidates to be banned, I wanna mention Volcarona, which I think is just as obscenely broken as them. Offensive sets can use tera blast ground to reliably beat Toxapex and Heatran, some of the very few semi reliable answers, or tera grass giga which lets volc set up and beat mons it should't be able to, such as Rotom-W. Defensive sets can also be good abusers of tera grass, but they can also opt for tera water, for a far more defensive option which also lets it set up on and beat Heatran. I frankly am amazed at how few people I see discussing such an obviously broken pokemon.

A few more things I believe are broken to a slightly lesser degree are stored power, this one is mainly cres and mew but those mons are dicks without the move, dragonite, manageable for now but not once you start banning the truly absurd stuff, shifu, valiant, hisuigant, zama and kart are all in a similar boat to dnite, gliscor and garg are both fat wincons that can abuse tera to an absurd degree without relying on stored power like cres and mew do, and finally sneasler, and frankly this mon is completely separate from the stuff w/ tera, it's really only dire claw but we should get it out of here while we´re in the middle of a huge ban wave.

The situation looks very bleak, but hopefully we can still salvage this tier somehow, and I believe these bans to be the first step in that direction
You missed Gholdengo btw, that thing needs to go the moment Kingambit is gone, especially with tera.
 
tbh I'd definitely choose revealing tera type over no tiering action if there were other options.
I think this is a huge factor as to why the vote turned out the way it did. The all-or-nothing approach the NatDex council imposed on the vote took a lot of people who would have been willing to settle for some kind of compromise like Tera Team Preview and pushed them over towards voting no ban to save the mechanic. People do realize that there are balancing issues with the tier, but Terastalization is at its core fundamentally a popular mechanic, and I think its detractors have to realize that compromise is their best bet at shifting the metagame in a more desirable direction. Pushing for total removal and then calling all the people who came out of the woodwork to preserve Tera “unqualified casuals” doesn’t make people want to flock to your position.
 
I always think-the biggest problem isn't on tera,it's specific Tera+specific Pokemon,The essence of tera is a tool, and it is also a characteristic mechanism of this generation. After three years of experiencing a blank mechanism, we should have learned to adapt to it. More of the problem is the impact of game freak on this game.

If the options for Tera sus are similar to when Gen9 OU first sus Tera, there are multiple options that I can accept. This is already a big deal and needs to be treated rigorously, rather than a polarized choice. Moreover, in the case of OU tier, I am more willing to accept the approach of Tera preview, which seeks competitive ways in coexistence,and the national dex was also born to make up for some regrets in the nintendo switch Pokemon game.

By the way,i think if we want to play tera gen9 ndou, I think we can observe or sus the following pkm, most of whom have been complaining for a long time.

1
kingambit.png
kingamibit This is the most broken pokemon on this metagame-100/120/85's bulky pokemon,and 135 atk+swords dance+fallen+STAB sucker punch!,fallen 3-fallen5 kingambit always can defeat many pokemon and many team,a kingamibit can let your team bring fight type pkm such as Great Tusk
great-tusk.png
, Zamazenta
zamazenta.png
,Mega-Lopunny
lopunny-mega.png
,Iron Valiant
iron-valiant.png
,Urshifu-RS
urshifu-rapid-strike.png
and Tapu LeLe(psychic terrin)
tapu-lele.png
,and lele usally don't want to bring choice scarf,because kingamibit have pursuit,and natdex's bit have Knock Off!usually can 97.5BP,Stronger then Kowtow Cleave,bring fighting type pkm+tera kingamibit let many fighting pkm also can't defeat kingamibit,such as ice Z Tusk vs fallen 5 kingamibit,can u use close combat?oh he tera fly,and tera fairy/tera fire/tera dark.etc,let this mon become unbreakable monster!That's why some Dragapult use will-o -wisp or tera fight,fallen 5+SD kingamibit is so broken,and his sucker punch It's just a big knife hanging on many offense team on many time,players are accustomed to targeting him, but from a different perspective, it is precisely because he is too terrifying that they need to target him, otherwise you will be killed throughout battle.This mon really need to suspect
Here's a picture
QQ图片20230711194153.jpg


2 Dragapult
dragapult.png
pult not ban on natdex ou because of kingamibit is so strong,and on this tier,expect some pkm(Clodsire block specs pult,dondonzo block phy pult,and garg block shadow ball/ghost z),many pkm can't defeat dd+ghost z pult,and pult always have choice specs/heavy duty boots.etc sets,when kingamibit sus or ban,pult need to sus/ban on this game,142 speed+great move+huge power Z move,the tera of pult is more of a icing on the cake effect.Many times, when dealing with this mon at natdex, it is difficult to find the most suitable strategy. Even Garg will be forcefully defeated by sub+dragon dance

3 Sneasler
sneasler.png
The fastest pkm on this metagame,especially this metagame have koko/lele/grass glide Rillaboom,can completely liberate his strength,tera fly+SD+Acrobatics can defeat many team and pkm,expect stall team,but if u don't use stall or some semi-stall like use Gholdengo/Covert Cloak pkm,It's easy to get into trouble.Many other teams need use such as shadow snake(Aegislash.etc)/Bullet Punch/Sucker Punch/Aqua Jet to defeat Sneasler,it can match up most of offense team(rain team,hyper offense,many bulky offense.etc),And he have DIRE CLEW!Sometimes suddenly,he let u asleep,oops,Nooooo!Some stall pkm also can't avoid this,these three mons very suggest to try to suspect

some other pkm like Gholdengo/Zamazenta/Garganacl,they are also can sus on this tier,everything is troublesome and affects the overall metagame.
 

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This post is just gonna be a warning that any further posts about undoing the suspect, how you are leaving the tier because of the result, or anything similar is going to be deleted and infracted. If you have issues with the tiering/suspect process, feel free to bring them up to me or kyo or make a PR thread. Any and all reports of cheating / vote manipulation have been looked into and acted on accordingly already where relevant.

The months in-between the Tera tests were generally treated by the community as a waiting period until tiering could actually start, but now we're here and we're going to make it work. Some things that we have discussed in the council chat as follow ups to the result are:

Community survey with the likes of Kingambit, Gholdengo, Sneasler, Valiant, Dragapult, and Lele on there for the next Suspect Test

Polling the community about their thoughts on a Kokoloko-esq quickban slate to dramatically reduce the power level of the tier quickly (akin to last generations banning of the Big 5)

Resetting the tier was also mentioned, IE: unbanning everything and starting again with quickbans. I dont like this option at all though as it delays the process significantly.

We can worry about looking at Ursaluna and Roaring Moon unbans when we get the meta to a more stable position, so I dont think they should be on the table at all at the minute.
 
I always think-the biggest problem isn't on tera,it's specific Tera+specific Pokemon,The essence of tera is a tool, and it is also a characteristic mechanism of this generation. After three years of experiencing a blank mechanism, we should have learned to adapt to it. More of the problem is the impact of game freak on this game.

If the options for Tera sus are similar to when Gen9 OU first sus Tera, there are multiple options that I can accept. This is already a big deal and needs to be treated rigorously, rather than a polarized choice. Moreover, in the case of OU tier, I am more willing to accept the approach of Tera preview, which seeks competitive ways in coexistence,and the national dex was also born to make up for some regrets in the nintendo switch Pokemon game.

By the way,i think if we want to play tera gen9 ndou, I think we can observe or sus the following pkm, most of whom have been complaining for a long time.

1 View attachment 533633kingamibit This is the most broken pokemon on this metagame-100/120/85's bulky pokemon,and 135 atk+swords dance+fallen+STAB sucker punch!,fallen 3-fallen5 kingambit always can defeat many pokemon and many team,a kingamibit can let your team bring fight type pkm such as Great TuskView attachment 533635, Zamazenta View attachment 533636,Mega-LopunnyView attachment 533637,Iron ValiantView attachment 533638,Urshifu-RSView attachment 533640and Tapu LeLe(psychic terrin)View attachment 533639,and lele usally don't want to bring choice scarf,because kingamibit have pursuit,and natdex's bit have Knock Off!usually can 97.5BP,Stronger then Kowtow Cleave,bring fighting type pkm+tera kingamibit let many fighting pkm also can't defeat kingamibit,such as ice Z Tusk vs fallen 5 kingamibit,can u use close combat?oh he tera fly,and tera fairy/tera fire/tera dark.etc,let this mon become unbreakable monster!That's why some Dragapult use will-o -wisp or tera fight,fallen 5+SD kingamibit is so broken,and his sucker punch It's just a big knife hanging on many offense team on many time,players are accustomed to targeting him, but from a different perspective, it is precisely because he is too terrifying that they need to target him, otherwise you will be killed throughout battle.This mon really need to suspect
Here's a pictureView attachment 533644

2 DragapultView attachment 533646pult not ban on natdex ou because of kingamibit is so strong,and on this tier,expect some pkm(Clodsire block specs pult,dondonzo block phy pult,and garg block shadow ball/ghost z),many pkm can't defeat dd+ghost z pult,and pult always have choice specs/heavy duty boots.etc sets,when kingamibit sus or ban,pult need to sus/ban on this game,142 speed+great move+huge power Z move,the tera of pult is more of a icing on the cake effect.Many times, when dealing with this mon at natdex, it is difficult to find the most suitable strategy. Even Garg will be forcefully defeated by sub+dragon dance

3 SneaslerView attachment 533651 The fastest pkm on this metagame,especially this metagame have koko/lele/grass glide Rillaboom,can completely liberate his strength,tera fly+SD+Acrobatics can defeat many team and pkm,expect stall team,but if u don't use stall or some semi-stall like use Gholdengo/Covert Cloak pkm,It's easy to get into trouble.Many other teams need use such as shadow snake(Aegislash.etc)/Bullet Punch/Sucker Punch/Aqua Jet to defeat Sneasler,it can match up most of offense team(rain team,hyper offense,many bulky offense.etc),And he have DIRE CLEW!Sometimes suddenly,he let u asleep,oops,Nooooo!Some stall pkm also can't avoid this,these three mons very suggest to try to suspect

some other pkm like Gholdengo/Zamazenta/Garganacl,they are also can sus on this tier,everything is troublesome and affects the overall metagame.
While I think that taking action on Pokemon that abuse Tera is the best thing we can do currently, I'll say that the belief of Tera + Pokemon being a problem is just not true, at the core its Tera allowing Sneasler to turn into a Flying-type and invalidate your Landorus-T and your Dragapult using Tera Blast Fighting on a Kingambit. Not trying to go on a tangent about how a Tera ban would solved these problems but I just think that considering Tera + Pokemon as a problem is like calling a cockroach with a parasite a problem when it clearly is just the parasite.

Now, as a council member myself I'll take the opportunity to explain what I plan to do to try to make this metagame the best it can be, starting with looking at Pokemon that a lot of people consider problematic.

:kingambit: :dragapult::sneasler:
These three Pokemon absolutely have to leave sometime in the future. I don't see how people can deal with Kingambit just flipping games on its head with the 50/50s it often forces, Dragapult just clicking buttons and even killing your own Pursuit trapper often with Tera Blast Fighting, and Sneasler becoming a Hawlucha but on steroids and Dire Claw to back it up so it can cheese through its checks. While I'd be down for a quickban on all, if I had to choose one not to quickban I would choose Kingambit due to its status as a metagame staple, and in situations like this the community should decide whether it leaves or not. I would totally be down for a Dragapult and Sneasler quickban though those two guys are just bums.

:volcarona: :gholdengo: :zamazenta:
Some potential Tera abusers that may be looked at in the future, I've seen some Volcarona and Zamazenta hate but way more Gholdengo hate as it truly can just pick what it wants to beat whenever it wants to, not to mention having Good as Gold so you can't cripple it with Toxic or Thunder Wave to ease your troubles with it. However, Gholdengo also serves as a check to other strong meta threats like Iron Valiant, Tapu Lele, and Zamazenta if we want to classify it as such while also being the backbone of hazard stacking teams, which people often consider oppressive even though we have hazard control with a good offensive presence. It also is a hassle for fat to deal with since Gholdengo just prays on passive Pokemon, and can Tera to prevent being revenge killed by Mega Lopunny. Besides that, it sounds a little bit bearable but I totally see taking action on it in the future. Volcarona is often called broken for its variance but in all honestly it cant be as variable as it was in say SVOU. In a metagame with Heatran, Toxapex, Mega Diancie, Garganacl, and to a stretch Pokemon like Clodsire and Mega Tyranitar, it often will be either Tera Grass or Ground with coverage to hit the aforementioned Pokemon, and not some wack shit like Tera Fairy. I don't find Volcarona annoying at the moment and I don't think I will for a bit, and the same goes for Zamazenta as its incredibly okay to handle, but ID + BP sets with Tera are a pain to deal with when you load offense without a Ghost or a Pokemon that can just take advantage of that set.

:garganacl: :gliscor: :cresselia:
Tera abusing wincons on fat are some things I've seen distaste about. Garganacl often scraps away its Rock-type to turn into a Dragon- / Water- / Fairy-type and then become hard to take down with its solid bulk, and even more annoying to switch into as it has a free progress button in Salt Cure. I think that it's honestly not that bad to deal with and it can be danced around with proper play, but I wouldn't be opposed to like include it on a slate. Gliscor however has been annoying to many with its Swords Dance sets since people started spamming it after the Annihilape ban. Gliscor is already not that interactive of a Pokemon and can be challenging to force out, and with Tera in play makes that problem even more of a headache to force out and also make it check Pokemon it would never do without Tera, like Kyurem. Lastly, Cresselia is a big nuisance in the metagame but I believe that there is a good solution to tame it down.

tm-psychic.png

Stored Power is a degenerative move and I want it gone. With abusers like Cresselia, Polteageist, Latios, Mew, and to an extent Pokemon like Necrozma and Tapu Lele, its incredibly annoying to deal with as it rewards the user for becoming stronger and thus turns hard to switch into even with a few Calm Minds, not to mention the coverage these abusers have to break through Pokemon like Kingambit and Mega Tyranitar, the former can't even revenge kill them well due to them not being Dark-weak anymore, and god forbid they are in Psychic Terrain. You will often have to burn a Tera to deal with it but the abusers will often bypass through that anyway. It's overall an unhealthy move and I'd love to take action on it sometime in the future.

:tapu-lele: :tornadus-therian: :iron-valiant:
While these Pokemon were mentioned above in Jho's message (Barring Tornadus-T as he was discussed but removed from consideration), I think these three Pokemon are healthy and and at the least bearable in Iron Valiant's case. Tapu Lele and Tornadus-T have plenty of counterplay but are pretty strong in their own right but not to an oppressing level, but Iron Valiant is a interesting topic. It's extremely variable with all of its sets, you will often see Choice Specs, Calm Mind, and Expert Belt but people have began to experiment with others sets like Encore + 3 Attacks and Swords Dance + Booster Energy, both of which can beat what checks its standard sets. I find Iron Valiant somewhat of an annoyance in the builder and to play against but its nothing too big as of now.

:ursaluna: :roaring-moon:
These two are very big suspect candidates but we obviously have to get the metagame settled first, I'd say Ursaluna is a bigger priority to suspect than Roaring Moon as it was treated quite bad by us, but both are on the table and will likely see action taken on them down the line.
metagross-mega.png
Could include this guy too but we will have to wait a bit...

Overall, while this suspect is a big headache to the community, metagame, and tiering alike, its not like there's no hope. We can definitely work around this problem and shape up a playable and enjoyable metagame, and perhaps even paint a picture of consistency as well. It's not over.
 
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This post is just gonna be a warning that any further posts about undoing the suspect, how you are leaving the tier because of the result, or anything similar is going to be deleted and infracted. If you have issues with the tiering/suspect process, feel free to bring them up to me or kyo or make a PR thread. Any and all reports of cheating / vote manipulation have been looked into and acted on accordingly already where relevant.

The months in-between the Tera tests were generally treated by the community as a waiting period until tiering could actually start, but now we're here and we're going to make it work. Some things that we have discussed in the council chat as follow ups to the result are:

Community survey with the likes of Kingambit, Gholdengo, Sneasler, Valiant, Dragapult, and Lele on there for the next Suspect Test

Polling the community about their thoughts on a Kokoloko-esq quickban slate to dramatically reduce the power level of the tier quickly (akin to last generations banning of the Big 5)

Resetting the tier was also mentioned, IE: unbanning everything and starting again with quickbans. I dont like this option at all though as it delays the process significantly.

We can worry about looking at Ursaluna and Roaring Moon unbans when we get the meta to a more stable position, so I dont think they should be on the table at all at the minute.

The other thing broken with tera is that you don't know which tera type will your opponent turn to. So kingambit and gholdhengo are really pain in the ass since you don't which tera they will turn to which makes certain games with an outcome borderline random. I think tera reveal is an interesting point cause it will cancel this random part of tera.
Honestly I don't think it is dumb to do an suspect tera but with two different choices: Restrict tera(tera reveal for example) or do not change. It's a completly different situation from the ban tera or not ban tera because in either way you keep the mechanism from the generation so it will convinced more "do not ban tera" people to take action against tera because they will the amusement of the mechanism.
(At least, it's for the upset pro tera ban, it's the only way to ask for a retest instead of complaining).
 
I realize this is tangential to the suspect but I’m just putting in my 2¢ on this format mechanically because we weren’t allowed to post in the original policy review thread at the beginning of Gen 9. This format should probably just be current mechanics and move pools (respecting mons most recently available home-enforced movepool) with the full Pokédex. That’s it. I realize that people love megas and z-moves and old movepools and deleted moves like pursuit, but as time goes on it seems stranger and stranger to pick these mechanics as the ones the whole tier needs to orbit forever. Pokémon is going to have reduced rosters for the foreseeable future. National Dex feels like a CF because of its commitment to random mechanics that were never supposed to interact. There are active ladders and tournaments available for those that want to enjoy these older mechanics. This is not to say that Tera is good but I think this is a great opportunity for some soul searching of the tier itself.
 
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The logic of the tier is confusing at times. You could argue that taunt + toxic on lando is illegal and a bisharp that learns knock off and pursuit is not in a gen where it can evolve, and being able to evolve means losing those moves, but established illegal combos like wish + teleport blissey arent allowed. The whole tier has a lot of arbitrary rules and non-rules, but as-is its just a tier from a theoretical world where nothing was ever cut between gens, mechanics, movepools, the like.
This ruling is completely consistent with “mons can be transferred from gen 7 to any later gen” btw (aka the currently agreed premise). If bisharp could be transferred without losing its moves, you would be able to get a knock off kingambit. However, no amount of transferring can get a egg move (teleport) and an event move (wish blissey) on one set.
 
I think this is a huge factor as to why the vote turned out the way it did. The all-or-nothing approach the NatDex council imposed on the vote took a lot of people who would have been willing to settle for some kind of compromise like Tera Team Preview and pushed them over towards voting no ban to save the mechanic. People do realize that there are balancing issues with the tier, but Terastalization is at its core fundamentally a popular mechanic, and I think its detractors have to realize that compromise is their best bet at shifting the metagame in a more desirable direction. Pushing for total removal and then calling all the people who came out of the woodwork to preserve Tera “unqualified casuals” doesn’t make people want to flock to your position.
tera here is quite literally the opposite of popular, and any of the halfway options just straight up don't solve the issue
the issue isn't one part of tera, it's the mechanic as a whole
 
Tera is unpopular among the community on smogon. Among the player base willing to make quals, it seems to be pretty popular


both votes resulted in a majority of the voting playerbase wanting it gone. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the “losing” side to be frustrated at this. Most qualified players don’t like the current state of affairs, it’s hard for a tier to continue in such a state.
 
I realize this is tangential to the suspect but I’m just putting in my 2¢ on this format mechanically because we weren’t allowed to post in the original policy review thread at the beginning of Gen 9.
You were allowed to ask for posting access: there is a pinned thread in the Policy Review indicating how you can do it.

This format should probably just be current mechanics and move pools (respecting mons most recently available home-enforced movepool) with the full Pokédex. That’s it. I realize that people love megas and z-moves and old movepools and deleted moves like pursuit, but as time goes on it seems stranger and stranger to pick these mechanics as the ones the whole tier needs to orbit forever. Pokémon is going to have reduced rosters for the foreseeable future. National Dex feels like a CF because of its commitment to random mechanics that were never supposed to interact. There are active ladders and tournaments available for those that want to enjoy these older mechanics. This is not to say that Tera is good but I think this is a great opportunity for some soul searching of the tier itself.
As much as I understand your opinion, I will have to mention that natdex mechanics were discussed a lot, and this is a point that was brought multiple times. One big reason why NatDex was kept the way it is is simply because among the playerbase, both from the casual and competitive parts of the community, there is just no support to nuke the old move(pool)s and items: so why would we do it? And frankly anyone playing the tier can tell you that the "random mechanics that were never supposed to interact" part is really overblown, and the only actually problematic elements (shedinja and assist) have been taken care off anyway.

I will try to word this as nicely as possible, but the last line frankly irks me: we went through the dynamax/AG controversy, which led to the creation of this thread and a bunch of debates and opinions given everywhere about what natdex should be, and needed 4 months to finally get a conclusion - this wasn't just soul searching at this point, this was practicing exorcism on the entire Smogon population. I personally put an immense amount of effort to make this happen, and am not the only one, and I can guarantee things are far from being as simple as your post might suggest. All of this just to say: yes, nuking old moves and items was a something that was proposed and discussed, but there are reasons why it was not accepted.

To be as clear as possible: yes, you can disagree with the way the tier is currently defined, and this is perfectly fine and healthy. However, before suggesting something as brutal as nuking one of the most defining aspects of the tier, I vividly recommend first making sure you aren't suggesting something that already was proposed in the past without adding something new, because this will just lead to a rehash of a billion things that already were said and discussed plenty.

Teleport is a tm in LGPE, not an egg move. That's the only way to get it, but you can't transfer an event wish chansey keeping the move in LGPE. This is inconsistent with the premise of not losing moves through transfer, unless you want to be a gnome about it and say ehhhrmm LGPE is gen 7 soooo the no-dexit clause doesnt apply, which I think is stupid.
How do you transfer a wish blissey (gen3 event) to lgpe, exactly?
 
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