And what do you mean by actually qualified, exactly? Because the people who actually qualified for the suspect test voted in favor of keeping it.
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
they mean tour players pmuch.
im referring to people that are established in the community, understand what people want and what needs to happen to make a competitive game. not accusing anyone of voting fraud
so yea tour players and council members, basically not ladder rats like me.
I don't play NDOU but I can say with certainty that any group of people who are decent at the game can bomb a suspect test lol, this is not on fault of anyone else but due to the sheer fact that suspects in almost all tiers are extremely easy to get lol. The difficulty scaling needs to be greater, or atleast some sort of weight on a vote needs to be put in place thats determined by their record of reqs (EX: 80 gxe is 1/2 a vote of 85 gxe). Anyways good luck to yall lol
With all due respect, you sort of admitted you didn't really play natdex prior to this so you don't really know why tera is such a controversial and disliked mechanic for the tier. So saying "learn to play with it" comes off as... Rather tone deaf.
With all due respect tera isn't going anywhere so, well, you should learn to play with it since it's here to stay, and perhaps try to positively contribute to the tier and figure out how to improve on what we have here instead of making posts of no value to anyone. There's some work that needs to be done in the tier now that this suspect is done and it'd be better if everyone started shifting their discussion to that.
And also I've been playing natdex for a while and never said that in my post, I just do it casually and don't play in tours much for it. Won't retort with you anymore though, hope you have a good day.
Or we can all just quit the tier, which is far more likely. wont waste time playing a meta thats going nowhere and brings no joy.
That "some work" you're talking about is banning like 20 mons that are very clearly broken, that ppl have been asking to get banned but haven't been suspected bc tera is the thing that makes them broken, and there was hope that there would be a retest resulting in a ban. There really isn't a lot of contributions left to make. It actually makes more sense to try and do something to get tera banned.
speaking as a council here but there's basically nothing to do rn, all potential tiering actions wldve been possible if tera got banned which is obv not the case here, so it's likely the tier will remain as it is rn.
the only change possible wld be to ban a shit ton of mon including kingambit and dragapult, which will just show how ridiculous of a mech tera is since we literally banned like what 10 mons bc of it already and it's probably not going to stop (including shedinja may i remind you kek).
RIP Natdex. Gen 8 Natdex was a blast, I am grateful for the happy memories.
F for the council, high ladder and tournament players. May you could have considered raising the eligibility threshold for voting?
F for the council, high ladder and tournament players. May you could have considered raising the eligibility threshold for voting?
Tera remains legal in National Dex!
Forgot to make the official announcement here but it seems like you're already well aware...
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...terastallization-re-test.3724266/post-9698424
Forgot to make the official announcement here but it seems like you're already well aware...
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...terastallization-re-test.3724266/post-9698424
If anyone is genuinely interested about this topic, scroll up in nd discord and find the proper translation for this message!! I understand people are upset about the ruling, hell I am too, but jumping to blame this only on the Chinese playerbase is a stretch and harms discussion more than it helps.
would advise yall drop the talk on voter manipulation and what not, its being addressed internally.
instead focus on the future of the tier and what we can do to better it, in rational ways. And no I dont want to see comments like "Dismiss the result" or "Free tera".
instead focus on the future of the tier and what we can do to better it, in rational ways. And no I dont want to see comments like "Dismiss the result" or "Free tera".
Aight then so just to start off a complete unmon like Cress is about to get the boot right?
Seconding this because Kaede sniped me. In regard to the image circulating right now, that alone is not proof of voting manipulation whatsoever. Feel free to voice your displeasure with the outcome of this test if you wish, but I would appreciate less accusations unless further information comes to light.
I think this is a good, level headed take.
Anyways... I guess the next thing to do would be to think about what is the next best way to improve the tier for now. Aside from the many set up sweepers abusing tera to frustrating effect, one pokemon I think that deserves special mention is Kingambit. It's a frustrating pokemon because while it brings positives to the tier with its unique, strong defensive profile and utility with such a potent knock/pursuit, I feel like its ability to bring back games from a losing position due to tera dark supreme overlord is very unbalanced and doesn't take much skill either. But if Kingambit were to go, I also think Dragapult should follow as without the threat of pursuit to remove it, Pult would have far too much freedom to do what it did last gen and become much harder to account for.
It's pretty amazing seeing all this go down. I'm pretty sure that approx 40% of the winning vote only had 2 posts which is kinda crazy. From a balance standpoint its kinda insane that there isn't an account age requirement on suspects considering those screenshots show that at the very least some chicanery was afoot. It's a real shame since I haven't really been able to enjoy Gen 9 ND to the same effect I did Gen 8 and was hoping to see that change. But what's done is done, can't wait to see a bunch of bans take place.
The higher-ups were talking about how this is being handled internally, but I hope that going forward smog on looks at their suspect system to keep people who are not a part of a tier's community from ruining a metagame. The vote's result is extremely disappointing and will hopefully be a clear case to work towards improving the system on how we balance a game we all love.
I think the last time I felt this way was watching the Red Wedding in Game of Thrones lmao.
The higher-ups were talking about how this is being handled internally, but I hope that going forward smog on looks at their suspect system to keep people who are not a part of a tier's community from ruining a metagame. The vote's result is extremely disappointing and will hopefully be a clear case to work towards improving the system on how we balance a game we all love.
I think the last time I felt this way was watching the Red Wedding in Game of Thrones lmao.
To a certain degree, yes. I see a whole lot of posting in this thread from people who did not get their voting reqs. I have to encourage people to actually complete reqs on multiple occasions because they say they are either too lazy to finish them or they tried one account and it didn’t work out. If someone really isn’t able to complete voting reqs then it is what it is. But I’d expect at the very least that they try a couple times because they have two whole weeks. Anyone who didn’t even attempt reqs because they assumed a certain outcome clearly didn’t learn from the first Tera suspect.
it doesn't even take that much time to run another set of reqs tbh. if you're running into a loss or two out of the blue in the 1200s or so that'll wreck your chances of 80% GXE by 1500, it should take almost no time at all to load some stall or landorus/great tusk + kingambit and have people forfeit on preview til you're back in the 1200s. i've had to make like 8 accounts for the last 2 reqs in natdex (bc of shit GXE and not understanding that losing early on really ruins your chances of making the reqs. also im bad). but it really doesnt take that much time. people post reqs within hours of the thread going up.
the supermajority requirement & fresh accounts (which are not that sketchy, just a little annoying to have "random" people show up and rally) & lazy tera haters add up fast, i suppose. RIP.
PS: bring back gen 8 natdex ladder. who do we petition for this?
the supermajority requirement & fresh accounts (which are not that sketchy, just a little annoying to have "random" people show up and rally) & lazy tera haters add up fast, i suppose. RIP.
PS: bring back gen 8 natdex ladder. who do we petition for this?
To be fair I am one of the lame pro ban people who didn't get reqs, but I also just... didn't wanna play the tier because of things like Tera. And did also think it was a sure outcome. I think part of this is also due to how people talked about the suspect test, you must forgive people for believing the very overwhelming pro-ban sentiment from the playerbase in many threads, or the Discord, etc.
This whole suspect reminds me of BDSP OU before it was abandoned. The council and basically everyone thought a Latios ban was assured, so it was not a quickban. This ended up ruining the tier for months as the council had no real plan for if Latios was not banned, it was seen as the obvious conclusion.
What ended up happening was as the newness of the tier faded, and the tier was still not settled, and SWSH OU and Gen 8 NatDex kept getting better, BDSP OU ended up in failure.
In both cases the ladder was not of a high quality, and a very similar set of events occurred. I think part of this is that a lot of this thread must understand, National Dex as an idea appeals to a less competitive audience.
Frankly, Game Freak absolutely had a point when it came to the fact that it is easier to balance with less Pokemon and less major mechanics. And National Dex will always have a very casual audience because it is geared towards people, like one of my friends, who are more interested in competitive Pokemon for using their favorites, or weird strategies, or god forbid "I can't use a full Ash Ketchum team in OU, so National Dex it is."
BDSP had a very casual audience because it was seen as an alternative to SWSH's balance-heavy metagame, which a lot of low-level players were tired of.
So, what is to be done, in my opinion?
Nothing with Tera itself. This is the second suspect test, it's time to take that loss. Instead, focus on doing something that I do not think is in line with what makes National Dex an appealing tier to a more casual audience, but what clearly has to be done: Ban Pokemon. A lot of Pokemon have avoided action with "Well it's mostly Tera's fault", so it is time to reap what the playerbase has sowed.
About the investigation type thing; any, and I mean any reason to cast your vote is valid. This isn't actual politics or the real world, nobody gets hurt if National Dex OU is weaker as a tier, we shouldn't do what is essentially Smogon forensics unless we actually believe alting has occurred for multiple votes. Younger accounts, less experienced players, not of the main "active" community (or you know, a language barrier) doesn't make someone suddenly not have reqs. And if you have reqs, vote as you please for, hopefully a good reason, but any possible.
Agreed with this.
The people who complained about "how Smogon bans fun" and voted for No Ban on Tera to preserve "fun" are gonna have a reality check when +10 Pokemon end being banned cuz of Tera. That's gonna be interesting to see.
Oh well, what's done is done. Good luck with this metagame guys. I tried it like 5 times cuz I was curious but having to deal with so many busted threats plus Tera is not something I wanna deal with haha. Godspeed to the brave souls who are braving this metagame.
quick post addressing the most obviously broken pokemon that I believe should be quickbanned asap,
First off is Kingambit, tera dark sucker punches being able to reliably knock out resists and tera fairy/flying/fire turning every attempt to revenge kill this mon into a 50/50 makes it extremely unhealthy. Also doesn't help that this thing being so bulky means that even if it loses the 50/50 it can at worst switch out and try again later, but what usually happens is that the mon trying to rk just dies. This mon is very clearly broken.
Somewhat related to Kingambit is Dragapult, as the former is really the only thing that kept it from wreaking havoc on the tier. There are some really funny tera specs draco and sball calcs, and without gambit making it useless every other game the dd set can also thrive. If (when) Kingambit goes, this mon needs to follow suit.
Finally, while these first two seem to be the prirmary candidates to be banned, I wanna mention Volcarona, which I think is just as obscenely broken as them. Offensive sets can use tera blast ground to reliably beat Toxapex and Heatran, some of the very few semi reliable answers, or tera grass giga which lets volc set up and beat mons it should't be able to, such as Rotom-W. Defensive sets can also be good abusers of tera grass, but they can also opt for tera water, for a far more defensive option which also lets it set up on and beat Heatran. I frankly am amazed at how few people I see discussing such an obviously broken pokemon.
A few more things I believe are broken to a slightly lesser degree are stored power, this one is mainly cres and mew but those mons are dicks without the move, dragonite, manageable for now but not once you start banning the truly absurd stuff, shifu, valiant, hisuigant, zama and kart are all in a similar boat to dnite, gliscor and garg are both fat wincons that can abuse tera to an absurd degree without relying on stored power like cres and mew do, and finally sneasler, and frankly this mon is completely separate from the stuff w/ tera, it's really only dire claw but we should get it out of here while we´re in the middle of a huge ban wave.
The situation looks very bleak, but hopefully we can still salvage this tier somehow, and I believe these bans to be the first step in that direction
First off is Kingambit, tera dark sucker punches being able to reliably knock out resists and tera fairy/flying/fire turning every attempt to revenge kill this mon into a 50/50 makes it extremely unhealthy. Also doesn't help that this thing being so bulky means that even if it loses the 50/50 it can at worst switch out and try again later, but what usually happens is that the mon trying to rk just dies. This mon is very clearly broken.
Somewhat related to Kingambit is Dragapult, as the former is really the only thing that kept it from wreaking havoc on the tier. There are some really funny tera specs draco and sball calcs, and without gambit making it useless every other game the dd set can also thrive. If (when) Kingambit goes, this mon needs to follow suit.
Finally, while these first two seem to be the prirmary candidates to be banned, I wanna mention Volcarona, which I think is just as obscenely broken as them. Offensive sets can use tera blast ground to reliably beat Toxapex and Heatran, some of the very few semi reliable answers, or tera grass giga which lets volc set up and beat mons it should't be able to, such as Rotom-W. Defensive sets can also be good abusers of tera grass, but they can also opt for tera water, for a far more defensive option which also lets it set up on and beat Heatran. I frankly am amazed at how few people I see discussing such an obviously broken pokemon.
A few more things I believe are broken to a slightly lesser degree are stored power, this one is mainly cres and mew but those mons are dicks without the move, dragonite, manageable for now but not once you start banning the truly absurd stuff, shifu, valiant, hisuigant, zama and kart are all in a similar boat to dnite, gliscor and garg are both fat wincons that can abuse tera to an absurd degree without relying on stored power like cres and mew do, and finally sneasler, and frankly this mon is completely separate from the stuff w/ tera, it's really only dire claw but we should get it out of here while we´re in the middle of a huge ban wave.
The situation looks very bleak, but hopefully we can still salvage this tier somehow, and I believe these bans to be the first step in that direction
Banning 30-40 mons is hardly salvaging the tier. It's essentially acknowledging that the tier is dead. These bans will get more and more ridiculous, and plenty of meta staples will get, along with few harmless mons who wouldn't even be NDOU without tera
Given the size of Natdex, the moment you ban a mon, something else will take its place. It's just endless culling after culling, quickbans after quickbans. There are a ton of things flying under the radar right now due to other broke mons going wild.
I and every other half decent player knows this, however our other options include do nothing and let the tier slowly die, pray for the current ruling on tera to somehow be reverted, or try and do something. This is an absolute worst case, and it fucking sucks it has to come to this but there just isn't any other choice if we want this tier to have any semblance of a future.
In contrast from what I have heard climbing gen 9 ou's ladder is far harder and reqs are higher, and if action is taken there the council needs to own up and resuspect tera again, because it was clear the vote was botched. Natdex OU is way too easy to climb as it is, and seeing it as anything competitive is impossible when players can just get high GXE without being a good player. My point being is, if the gen 9 ou suspect goes differently, the council has to own up and run another test with far higher gxe and game win reqs like last gen, otherwise natdex will die as a format
This suspect was botched from the start, lowering the GXE requirements from last gen's natdex was an absolutely idiotic mistake