What would be ridiculous is leaving a ridiculously broken mechanic as is because "it would be ridiculous to restrict it" when a full ban would be extremely unpopular and would fracture and alienate the playerbase to an unnecessary degree. If Tera's time for full ban comes it will be obvious, and restrictions will help it become more obvious if they don't simply fix the problem
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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What would be ridiculous is leaving a ridiculously broken mechanic as is because "it would be ridiculous to restrict it" when a full ban would be extremely unpopular and would fracture and alienate the playerbase to an unnecessary degree. If Tera's time for full ban comes it will be obvious, and restrictions will help it become more obvious if they don't simply fix the problem
That's more of a Gambit issue than a Tera issue, to be fair. Gambit has presented the need to get double checks, because Tusk often has to do a lot of other things in the game, since the start of the Generation, with or without Tera'ing. It's moreso that its complete toolset requires to have decent checks, else you get Supreme'd from existence.
Basically exemplifying that a lot of 'pro restrictions' want the ban, but know that it's not popular at all. So they first want to ruin the mechanic by putting some weird restriction on it, so it worsen, and they can now be pro ban with easier arguments.
So it's the quick claw. Don't think you'll go very far with that one, but if that makes the council happy then it's alright to me.
I agree with you overall argument, except for we shouldn’t vote on full ban because it will never happen. It’s strange logic to take something away because you don’t think it will win. Especially when banning gets out right could be beneficial to the metagame. The vote can be in stages or rank choice if you’re worried about vote dilution.
Further, I think away the choice without giving voters time to test and flesh out their decisions seems like a bad move. If I’m not mistaken you were very anti-tera before?
"Ruin the mechanic" with restrictions that over 60% of the playerbase supports
Ranked choice voting is cringe, all we need is multiple yes/No questions on one ballot, rather than trying to solve the Tera problem with one ridiculously complicated question with 5 different answers including "Tera blast Ban" "Tera preview" and "both of these." Every time I hear "ranked choice voting" I get worried some turbonerd is about to mansplain to me "the merits of Scandinavian democracy"
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Lmao fair. I think especially this time, mid ground options are unlikely to make a huge impact. My larger concern is that “ban” stays on the ballot."Ruin the mechanic" with restrictions that over 60% of the playerbase supports
Ranked choice voting is cringe, all we need is multiple yes/No questions on one ballot, rather than making one ridiculously complicated question with 5 different answers including "Tera blast Ban" "Tera preview" and "both of these." Every time I hear "ranked choice voting" I get worried some turbonerd is about to mansplain to me "the merits of Scandinavian democracy"
It seems to me looking at the PR thread and some of the sentiment here that mid ground options "not making a huge impact" would be a a good thing, it seems like a lot of people want Tera improved a little bit rather than dramatically changed or removed completely
One of the things I had been thinking on for some time is the actual impact of Tera Blast vs things that would want to use Tera Blast. Sure, it brings a Pokemon like Volc down a few pegs as it can no longer blast through Clod and Dirge, but other Pokemon that still have access to the coverage they wanted out of Tera Blast (IE: Tera Fairy Espathra) don't get hurt nearly as bad.
The point of a Tera blast ban would not be targeting any specific Pokémon, it's removing the minefield of "any Pokémon can carry coverage moves of any type, and leverage this extra STAB move to kill anything" - the fact that there are very few Pokémon that are notable for using Tera Blast actually makes the move scarier because this risk is always out there. Removing it from the equation absolutely affects some Pokémon worse than overs, it favors Pokémon that have better natural movepools. But I don't think restricting Pokémon to the type coverage of their natural movepool is unbalanced in any way.
Re Espathra specifically, Fairy and Psychic as your two offensive moves is inadequate against a lot of threats, use a Cresselia if you don't believe me - Tera Blast Fighting became much more popular towards the end of the Espathra regime
You aren't wrong at all, my mind was merely looking at those who wanted to use/abuse it to break their checks, ala Volc using Ground/Water to beat Dirge/Clod and Espathra using Fairy/Fighting to break Darks/Steels.
How strange, when did you put up a vote for Preview and Tera Blast ban ? Didn't saw it"Ruin the mechanic" with restrictions that over 60% of the playerbase supports
I like how every pro ban has their own way to reformulate and misinterpret data to fit their will.
How strange, when did you put up a vote for Preview and Tera Blast ban ? Didn't saw it
I like how every pro ban has their own way to reformulate and misinterpret data to fit their will.
Do you understand what a suspect vote is?
lmao at "reformulate and misinterpret data" with your no action agenda polling at a cool 35%.
this thread and the PR thread have made it abundantly clear that both Tera Preview and Tera Blast ban are very legitimate paths forward and should be included in the vote. If the community deems them the right Path forward they will get the 60% needed to happen.
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35% in the face of a divided 65% across all other options, and before any kind of discussions. Including those who want a restriction that can not exist whatsoever, or just want it without knowing how.
Made it so abundantly clear that there's currently no suspect because they are very unclear and lacking options, with lots of downsides both in application and in terms of policy. But yeah, very clear.
Full ban and No action also have a lot of downsides in application and policy let's not pretend here
except that's not true. this "minefield" you speak of is solely limited to offensive mons. people aren't out here running tera blast chansey to get surprise kos. they aren't even running it on a lot of offensive mons that would benefit from it because it would make them lose out on a good defensive typing, or they don't have enough room for it in the moveset, or some other reason. tera blast isn't broken
No? Not in policy? Policy is setting a precedent. Banning/not banning something won't set any precedent.
As for application, that is your opinion, you already know we don't share that. To each their own.
this is vague. what are the downsides? of those downsides, which ones are downsides in terms of application, and which ones are in terms of policy? just saying something has downsides is kind of meaningless if you don't explain what they are
No Action's downsides are it is allowing an unbalanced aspect to remain in the metagame because it's "fun" which is contradictory to tiering philosophy and makes the metagame less Competitive
full ban has no downsides in application but extremely unpopular quickbans have great consequences for the playerbase and tanking the playerbase of a tier is contradictory to the health and longevity of a metagame
I mean, I can repeat basically every post which explained why banning a move only strong on certain Pokémon would open a disastrous precedent, or why preview brings nothing to the table, but I assumed you both read them, whether you agree or not
Lol, as if 'because it's fun' was the main point of keeping Tera as is. We just don't believe there's any problem with the mechanic as it currently is, and that removing a part/all of it would bring a far less creative/competitive/skillfull metagame.
Quoting the three players who posted about 'fun' in this thread is a bit hypocritical, if you may.
It has no downside in application in your opinion. Again, agree to disagree, but that's not a factual statement, just an opinion.
I mean, I can repeat basically every post which explained why banning a move only strong on certain Pokémon would open a disastrous precedent, or why preview brings nothing to the table, but I assumed you both read them
Preview actually brings a lot to the table, you are simply wrong about that. Knowing what type a Pokémon can become but still having the ambiguity of whether it will Tera or not keeps this mechanic intact while improving the frustrating guessing game it brings.
As I Said before, Targeting Tera Blast as a means to tier Tera does not create a precedent as there are no other moves that exist for the purpose of interacting with Tera.
You do not know what a precedent is. If you open a way for moves to get banned when they're good only on targetted Pokémon, that's a precedent. Interacting with Tera or not is not a concern in this matter.
Preview achieves nothing meaningful both for the skill ceiling of the metagame, and the 'restriction' of Tera, as it will create real 50/50 situation, compared to before, and basically kill any creativity in the egg.
The debate is anyway stale at this point. Let's wait for Gambit's suspect to conclude, and we'll have more data (or changes in metagame if banned) to actually bring new things to the table.
i know what a precedent is, you are simply falsely creating one. Give a specific example of what this so called "precedent" could lead to.
what do you believe is the issue re: "the skill ceiling of the metagame"? This is vague. Tera Preview has little impact in high level play since Tera types are more predictable, and helps players less familiar with metagame trends acclimate easier and helps with current day's SV requirement of keeping track of what Tera types are popular each week to succeed at the game. Once again, "little impact" is not necessarily a bad thing. I agree that this is an issue that affects newer players more than more experienced ones, but I legitimately want to know what people's perspectives are on making this metagame more approachable vs rewarding high level players for understanding how the game works. I agree that the latter is objectively more skill based and competitive but want to hear What people think regarding the proper balance between the two as I believe both are important
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