Unpopular opinions

[ant4456]

Oh we're talking about reasonably well-liked games we don't think are that good? Aight, ripe time for me to dump this.

View attachment 540872
It's something of a recurring gag that the PMD fanbase only actually likes Explorers so I'm not even sure how hot of a take this is but RB Rescue Team just doesn't hold up. I will confess that on my recent replay, the first in well over a decade, I did not finish the game. I gave up at Mt. Blaze. Why was this?

-Teambuilding, at least in the main story, is a waste of time. For a Pokemon game without a fixed roster i.e. Pokepark, this is about as fundamental of a failure as it gets. Your starters are buffed to high heaven and all the recruited Pokemon you get are weak. Level 13 Scyther should not have over 10 less HP than Level 15 Charmander, that's all there is to it. Frankly I could file this complaint under a broader one of this game's balancing being absolutely inscrutable at times: For example, considering this was pre-DP, why does Silent Chasm Yanma give more EXP when defeated than Ampharos in the same location and nearly as much as Arcanine later on in Mt. Blaze? And that's small fry stuff: If I had the energy I could devote an entire series of paragraphs to the absurdity of the power gaps between starters. Any Grass starter in this game is effectively a challenge run.

-Menuing is tedious as hell. Why do I have to re-assemble my team every time I complete a mission? Why can't I mass-withdraw stuff from storage? Why can't I just quickly have partners use items instead of having to waste time giving the item to them as a held one?

-Pokemon Square is a disappointingly empty hub. The benchmark of comparison I'm using here is Jubilife Village, and it's no contest. Jubilife does this cool thing, you see, where it actually evolves over the course of the game and you can talk to the joe schmoe villagers and do fun little sidequests that give you insight on this time period of the Pokemon world and how the commoners are adjusting to it. Meanwhile in Pokemon Square you can't even enter any of the houses. The whole appeal of PMD's world is seeing the Pokemon themselves be characters and how they run a society, so why not show more of that? Imagine being able to go into Lotad's house and its a big jacuzzi with lily pads, or Bellsprout's home being a greenhouse overgrowing with vines.

-And now the big dealbreaker that made me throw in the towel: This story is fuckin lame, dude. I was immensely caught off-guard by how fast you get to Great Canyon, and not in a good way: It feels like there are a whole 3 dungeons of setup cut with how abruptly the game pivots to the exiling of the player from the village. Gengar the known troublemaker who tried to extort a child tells the village that your existence will bring about the apocalypse and everyone just... Believes him unconditionally. Team ACT doesn't buy it, but they don't even try to use their fame and moral authority to stand up for you. There can be no adequate descriptor for this series of events other than "complete bullshit". If it's not at the Chairman Rose's heel turn tier of contrivance, it sure as hell ain't far behind. And yknow what? Normally, I wouldn't even care. My second and third favorite main series games have pretty nothing plots too. But after being inundated with years of hype about PMD being the spinoff with consistently great storytelling 95% of the core games' material can't even hold a candle to, my expectations were raised to a level that this junk doesn't come close to fulfilling.

If I had to rank it alongside the main series, I would put RB Rescue Team at C Tier, i.e. my second least favorite only beaten by DP. There's enough polish and care that I can't in good conscience call it an outright bad game but I wouldn't earnestly recommend it to anyone either. Honestly my big mistake was not replaying Explorers instead, I have no idea how many of my complaints are first game syndrome and how many are just endemic to PMD going forward.

PMD is a franchise where there is almost as much nostalgia-bullshit in how the playerbase talks about the games as the main series.

PMD1 is basically the Gen 4 equivalent, in that the story sucks, the gameplay is slow, the music is good (but every game's music is good), the graphics are average, the characters are mid, the difficulty is average, the amount of content is average, the game has almost no Quality of Life, but somehow the game is supposed to be part of the Golden Age?

Bit of a history lesson: Mystery Dungeon is not a Pokemon spinoff franchise, it is a Chunsoft franchise with a shit ton of spinoffs for different series; like Chocobo Mystery Dungeon (FF), Toreko's Mystery Dungeon (I probably spelled that incorrectly but DQ), their original IP Shiren the Wanderer.

Pokemon Mystery Dungeon was basically a test for the idea and it is mostly reusing assets from other Mystery Dungeon games. It's trying to just be a Pokemon Roguelite first, the games afterwards focus more with the ground set. The sequel, Explorers of (Time, Darkness and the third-version Sky) reuse a lot of assets, but make a lot of new ones and focuses more on story, QoL and content. It's the fan-favorite.

After that was the first 3DS game, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Gates to Infinity. This game is extremely controversial.

You know how Pokemon X and Y is boring because most of the development time was dedicated to simply making a 3D top-down Pokemon game, including all of those models? The 3DS PMD games have their own "shittified" version of the mainline models, simplified manually (not downscaled) as to be able to run like five of them on screen at the same time in 3D.

Keep in mind, this came out before Pokemon XY!

Gates to Infinity isn't boring, but the game feels unfinished. It has the least options of any PMD game (least Starters, nothing like speed options) and has some cool ideas to spice up the exploration of dungeons, but they end up feeling underused/unnecessary. In turn, you have the slowest text speed in the series, tons of useless text, and inarguably the worst gameplay in the series.

It does have a "good story" (that's the consensus, but I disagree), but I'd first recommend:

Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon, the 2015 sequel, and last fully original PMD game. I fucking adore this game. It's so good.

Excellent story, good characters, incredible music (though some of it is actually from GTI), arguably the best gameplay in the series. The game is the hardest game in the series, it changes the leveling system and main story structure to essentially deny grinding. You will end the game around Level 25! But that is fine, because it has the most endgame content in the series by far.

The graphics are also really good for the 3DS, and the new mechanics really push the game. Wands, Emeras, new Leveling, Pushing, early on getting two-tile range moves, Character prompts, etc. etc. etc.

It makes you really FEEEEL like a small Pokemon fighting big Pokemon, where your main and usually only way to continue winning is to use every advantage you can take, every item in your arsenal, every bit of ranged damage you can give for free.

The story is probably the best of any Pokemon game if you are willing to put the time in, in that replaying it makes the story make so much more sense. It will give you big questions, but if you replay the game the new context will make it fun all over again.

I'd probably recommend playing Explorers of Sky first/next, and then Super Mystery Dungeon. If you are really insistent on playing the other two, be my guest, but outside of nostalgia they are mostly just outdone, to be quite honest.

And Rescue Team DX is my least favorite game of all-time, but hey that's something for another day shhhhhh. shhhhh.

 

[Ironmage]

I actually appreciate that RT is lighter on the main story and more weighted towards a freeform postgame, since it gives more space to choose teams that don't necessarily include the player or partner mon. (I still somewhat miss the ability to change which mon is used around town that was cut from all future games, DX included) It also feels more willing to let the player bring in a 3rd mon of their choice compared to the later games making heavy use of fixed allies for story purposes. I kind of feel that Explorers' story is too good, because it appears to get its position by compromising the gameplay.

 

[ant4456]

I actually appreciate that RT is lighter on the main story and more weighted towards a freeform postgame, since it gives more space to choose teams that don't necessarily include the player or partner mon. (I still somewhat miss the ability to change which mon is used around town that was cut from all future games, DX included) It also feels more willing to let the player bring in a 3rd mon of their choice compared to the later games making heavy use of fixed allies for story purposes. I kind of feel that Explorers' story is too good, because it appears to get its position by compromising the gameplay.

for reference, have you played the games after Explorers of Sky, because to be honest this feels like a take for someone who only played the first two, considering 3/4 of the games are primarily focused on story before postgame

part of the reason for that is that the gameplay in all PMDs (except Super), is, mid

they're really not great with gameplay on their own, and that isn't even really a hot take, PMD is one of those series where it feels like half the playerbase would rather watch a let's play than actually play their favorite games

I mean, most of the fanbase is furries, fanfic, fanart and that's mostly it. And that isn't the fanbase's fault, that's because the gameplay just isn't that good and isn't the main appeal for the series

if you want a focus on good gameplay from a Mystery Dungeon game, you have things like Shiren which the first two(threeish) PMDs are basically just a watered down version of, but most won't because it is the IP and vibe that carries the games

unless it's Super, which most won't play because "it's too hard!" (krill issue) or say "changes the game too much!" because you hold B to pass by your party, or can push them for strategic reasons

 

[Ironmage]

for reference, have you played the games after Explorers of Sky, because to be honest this feels like a take for someone who only played the first two, considering 3/4 of the games are primarily focused on story before postgame

part of the reason for that is that the gameplay in all PMDs (except Super), is, mid

they're really not great with gameplay on their own, and that isn't even really a hot take, PMD is one of those series where it feels like half the playerbase would rather watch a let's play than actually play their favorite games

I mean, most of the fanbase is furries, fanfic, fanart and that's mostly it. And that isn't the fanbase's fault, that's because the gameplay just isn't that good and isn't the main appeal for the series

if you want a focus on good gameplay from a Mystery Dungeon game, you have things like Shiren which the first two(threeish) PMDs are basically just a watered down version of, but most won't because it is the IP and vibe that carries the games

unless it's Super, which most won't play because "it's too hard!" (krill issue) or say "changes the game too much!" because you hold B to pass by your party, or can push them for strategic reasons

I have played all of them. The 3ds games both hit the same unenjoyable experience I encountered in Explorers: getting stuck where the story won't let you go back to restock or change up anything.

I can definitely respect the position that PMD is not the ideal way to mesh rougelike elements with pokemon. I end up thinking of rougelikes as a spectrum between focusing on resource management and focusing on constructing synergies. PMD ends up being a resource conservation game in what I consider to be an inherently synergy-building series.

 

[ant4456]

I have played all of them. The 3ds games both hit the same unenjoyable experience I encountered in Explorers: getting stuck where the story won't let you go back to restock or change up anything.

I can definitely respect the position that PMD is not the ideal way to mesh rougelike elements with pokemon. I end up thinking of rougelikes as a spectrum between focusing on resource management and focusing on constructing synergies. PMD ends up being a resource conservation game in what I consider to be an inherently synergy-building series.

My perspective for context is: To me, PMD is a roleplaying resource management game with a focus on story. I am roleplaying as the character I am playing as, and I generally do not focus on recruiting. My focus on building my party is solely on movesets/using items to increase their strength. I don't see PMD as a "rogueli(k/t)e" per se, but more of just a resource game with individual roguelike dungeons.

My first game was Explorers, then Rescue Team, then Gates, then Super and RTDX.

Part of why I like PSMD so much is that it gives me the most freedom to build my main character and partner, without letting me go out of my way to just grind forever. It gives me a sense of urgency to prepare my characters for the next part of the story. I also will say PSMD's post-game is almost entirely about the collection aspect; you are doing a Catch em All but with quests to befriend all Pokemon, which you can play with.

I wanna talk about Rescue Team DX since I'm here:

I hate Rescue Team DX because I believe it to be the least interesting game from a roleplaying or story standpoint, while it is also shaky in quality. It has weirdly long input lag, it has actual lag quite often, the game just doesn't look very good to me, I think a lot of the music remixes of the originals are a disappointment (compare like any Defy the Legends remix to the official one), and I think Rescue Team was already mid. The game also uses Super mechanics without what makes Super good to me, resource management.

Super throws a shit ton of items at you because it's about resource management, you will use a lot of items in every dungeon with a ton of strategy coming from when and where you use them, and this can be influenced by your player/partner choice at the beginning of the game. For instance, I may use a Warp Wand on one specific type of enemy throughout the dungeon because type wise we both lose to it, but I will eventually run outand have to find other riskier ways to combat this threat.

Basically, Super is hard. I remember dying from an offscreen rain boosted Hydro Pump. Using a Reviver Seed. The Pokemon evolved (cool mechanic by the way), and then just killed me again. I want that pain, I love that pain. It colors my experiences with the game and makes me feel more in line with what I am roleplaying as: a small Pokemon exploring a big world.

Rescue Team DX is the easiest PMD game because it gives you the toolkit of Super, but everything else is super nerfed. In the early dungeons of PSMD you are already fighting evolved Pokemon or things like Stoutland, which simply out class you in stats by a lot. You need to outplay the game, and it teaches you how to do so, and gives you the tools. RTDX gives you Super's toolkit (Egg Moves from the start, Wands, massive buff abilities, etc.) and you are fighting baby Pokemon and it's so free. It even has an auto button.

The post game has some more challenge, but I'm not playing for the postgame, really. I want that story! I want the roleplaying potential, and Rescue Team's post-game has none of that, it even encourages me to swap Pokemon out.

Lastly, we really didn't need a remake. It had been 5 years since Super, and we never even got a Generation 7 PMD game. And that could have had some amazing storylines, like Ultra Necrozma could make for an amazing villain. But no, we don't get that, we get a shit quality remake.

Gates to Infinity is in my opinion a bad game, and probably worse than RTDX on an """objective""" metric, but also it's original. It is something new with new characters, a new story, new setpieces; RTDX has nothing, it is a cold void from a series I love purely for not being cold. Every PMD game feels full of passion to me, except for RTDX.

Being the first PMD game in 5 years, for $60, having a Dex Cut like the main series but even less justified, being a shallow remake of the (IMO) worst PMD, feeling dead and empty inside. You think BDSP was bad? At least that game honestly did make some improvements, like having a faster running speed. Plus, frankly, I never really cared about DPP in the first place. PMD is far closer to my chest.

Rescue Team DX disappointed me so hard that it remains my least favorite Switch game at minimum, and if you ask me, my least favorite game ever.

 

[Bakugames]

Lastly, we really didn't need a remake.

while I agree with most of your points, super and gates were the worst performing games of the series, going from 5 mil to 1 mil in sales. DX, despite being younger will soon surpass gates in sales already. the last two new games were pretty much flops, and following up with a third would not have been a good idea.

following up to this, what most pmd fans don't want to admit is that they don't really want a new pmd, they just want explorers again. gates has a much better story and yet it got shat on for its gameplay, despite the main consensus between pmd players is that the gameplay is the worst part of the series, and even explorers gameplay was grindy and unfun, flip flopping from braindead to frustating without any tools or strategy to mitigate it. I find it hard to believe that a new pmd game will succeed all that much, we'll probably get an explorers remake, another new entry that flops and the series will be over

 

[ant4456]

while I agree with most of your points, super and gates were the worst performing games of the series, going from 5 mil to 1 mil in sales. DX, despite being younger will soon surpass gates in sales already. the last two new games were pretty much flops, and following up with a third would not have been a good idea.

following up to this, what most pmd fans don't want to admit is that they don't really want a new pmd, they just want explorers again. gates has a much better story and yet it got shat on for its gameplay, despite the main consensus between pmd players is that the gameplay is the worst part of the series, and even explorers gameplay was grindy and unfun, flip flopping from braindead to frustating without any tools or strategy to mitigate it. I find it hard to believe that a new pmd game will succeed all that much, we'll probably get an explorers remake, another new entry that flops and the series will be over

I don't really see performance in the market as much to do with the quality of the games.

Most games on Switch make record sales for their franchises. Metroid, Fire Emblem, Kirby, Mario, Zelda, almost Pokemon itself, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Super Smash Bros, Splatoon have all had their best selling games on Switch. If anything, the only reason RTDX sold as much as it did is because 1. The Switch basically doubles or triples the sales numbers of games put on it (not even an exaggeration), 2. With Main Series becoming less popular, people talk more about spinoffs.

I don't really care about how well the games perform, anyways. I want new ones.

Gates to Infinity's story is worse than Explorer's story in my opinion. Gate to Infinity's story is less picturesque and grand. When I think of the stories of each PMD game, I can imagine key moments colored with the emotions I felt and the game wanted me to feel during those moments. Every game except RTDX and GTI has me there. I don't care about GTI's characters, I think they are boring, and I don't like the narrative. Explorers of Sky's characters are generally super mid, but it at least has a few that are good. It does more with those characters. I like it more.

I much prefer Super's plot to both anyways which swings two ways between 1. An in-game character study of your partner -> 2. The more grand scale with a focus on sacrifice and ending with what the partner did. And replaying the game has you realizing just how much your Partner's actions colored the game, even before it takes place.

Anywho, next point:

It's not just gameplay-gameplay, it's things like terrible text speeds that slow GTI down to a crawl. And even if a lot of fans don't care that much about the gameplay, GTI actively is unfun to play, while the rest of the games are at worst "neutral", with Super being the best gameplay wise.

Explorers gameplay is not that deep but it's also snappy and fun enough. I wish it challenged me more, even if frustrating. Frustrating things are memorable, the main dungeons I remember from my first playthrough were the ones I struggled with the most, and I think it was only two dungeons in total. Give me more tough things, like PSMD.

My main point:

I don't want just Explorers of Sky over and over. If the next game is an Explorers of Sky DX, I will quit the franchise. They will have lost a customer.

A dedicated consumer who has theorized about PMD for years, loved the characters for years, truly come to understand why I like it in the first place. If they instead go all in on nostalgia bait, I'm out.

I'd 100% rather they go out with a blaze of glory with one more new original title only for the game to tank and the series die forever than just be, fucking nothing. That's what the path of Explorers DX goes.

It does fucking nothing. It adds no art to the world. No substance. Nothing, it's void. It's Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl corpses forever.

Would you rather the series be a zombie forever? Or let it end with something that, even if bad, we can at least talk about? Discuss? Make theories?Have new things?

basically, me @ Spike Chunsoft

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

Emeras

thought this said "enemas" and i was like woah.... pokemon gets weird in the spin-offs

 

[ant4456]

thought this said "enemas" and i was like woah.... pokemon gets weird in the spin-offs

SPOILERS open if dont care for PSMD

no, but in PSMD you die and go to actual Hell, as in "The Voidlands", which has a dungeon that in Japanese is called "Hell Wastelands"
it acts like a greek hell, it's really cool, you fight these void creatures that look like Zelda chu chus, and the johto legendaries sacrifice themselves to help you escape

not entirely related but it does get weird

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

SPOILERS open if dont care for PSMD

no, but in PSMD you die and go to actual Hell, as in "The Voidlands", which has a dungeon that in Japanese is called "Hell Wastelands"
it acts like a greek hell, it's really cool, you fight these void creatures that look like Zelda chu chus, and the johto legendaries sacrifice themselves to help you escape

not entirely related but it does get weird

damn that sounds lit as hell

my only pmd experience is trying to play explorers of sky many many years ago and not being able to beat drowzee on mt. bristle (literal first boss battle of game). i am scared to go back even now. he is so strong

 

[CPU]

My main point:

I don't want just Explorers of Sky over and over. If the next game is an Explorers of Sky DX, I will quit the franchise. They will have lost a customer.

A dedicated consumer who has theorized about PMD for years, loved the characters for years, truly come to understand why I like it in the first place. If they instead go all in on nostalgia bait, I'm out.

I'd 100% rather they go out with a blaze of glory with one more new original title only for the game to tank and the series die forever than just be, fucking nothing. That's what the path of Explorers DX goes.

It does fucking nothing. It adds no art to the world. No substance. Nothing, it's void. It's Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl corpses forever.

Would you rather the series be a zombie forever? Or let it end with something that, even if bad, we can at least talk about? Discuss? Make theories?Have new things?

basically, me @ Spike Chunsoft

View attachment 541017

Bolded and italicized the main part that I wanted to focus on, but everything I quoted is relevant, so I just wanted to say that this is applies to so many major media franchises. It's all remakes/reboots/rereleases/remasters/re-whatevers nowadays. It doesn't just apply to video games, but focusing on those, the reason we see so many games remade, even relatively recent ones, is because big games take a lot of time and money to make. Game companies need to make money while they develop their new mainline titles, and the cheapest way to do that is to release an older [subjective] game that was popular that isn't already on the current platform. It's also usually safer, since said titles made money before, and the re-whatever model has proven to be lucrative across multiple media.

From a game accessibility standpoint, this is good (video games are probably the hardest to take to new formats because of how they tend to be built for specific systems and use particular engines), but part of me wishes they'd just release the original game at a cheaper price for the console most of the time. Re-whatevers usually have some QoL improvements and graphical upgrades [can be subjective], but I would usually prefer to experience the original game, warts and all. But a re-whatever for a game that hasn't be available for a long time is certainly better than nothing! (Super Mario RPG, Live A Live, etc).

Going back to the "safety" point, because of the huge temporal and monetary investment big games are, re-whatevers are just safer than new things, too. Obviously in this context we're talking about new games and stories from an existing franchise, but it also applies to entirely new IPs. Big media companies are scared to take risks, and thus we see relatively little innovation across media.

 

[ant4456]

Bolded and italicized the main part that I wanted to focus on, but everything I quoted is relevant, so I just wanted to say that this is applies to so many major media franchises. It's all remakes/reboots/rereleases/remasters/re-whatevers nowadays. It doesn't just apply to video games, but focusing on those, the reason we see so many games remade, even relatively recent ones, is because big games take a lot of time and money to make. Game companies need to make money while they develop their new mainline titles, and the cheapest way to do that is to release an older [subjective] game that was popular that isn't already on the current platform. It's also usually safer, since said titles made money before, and the re-whatever model has proven to be lucrative across multiple media.

From a game accessibility standpoint, this is good (video games are probably the hardest to take to new formats because of how they tend to be built for specific systems and use particular engines), but part of me wishes they'd just release the original game at a cheaper price for the console most of the time. Re-whatevers usually have some QoL improvements and graphical upgrades [can be subjective], but I would usually prefer to experience the original game, warts and all. But a re-whatever for a game that hasn't be available for a long time is certainly better than nothing! (Super Mario RPG, Live A Live, etc).

Going back to the "safety" point, because of the huge temporal and monetary investment big games are, re-whatevers are just safer than new things, too. Obviously in this context we're talking about new games and stories from an existing franchise, but it also applies to entirely new IPs. Big media companies are scared to take risks, and thus we see relatively little innovation across media.

I hope it comes across that I don't dislike remakes as a concept, but as a replacement to an existing new game. For instance Zelda, at least those remakes are generally not done in-house, Grezzo usually makes them and they mostly just make remakes.

And I really do not mind Spike Chunsoft taking a major financial hit from a flop, but obviously they do. I know this, I am just saying my opinion anyways. However, something I didn't talk about but alluded to is that the better success of RTDX is not likely attributable to it being a remake, but simply because it's a Nintendo Switch game compared to consoles that, while successful, mostly kinda just existed. The 3DS at the time was seen as a big success, but the Switch and DS make it look tiny, and the marketing of the 3DS PMD games were pretty bad. Have you seen the infamous UK PSMD ad?

From an accessibility standpoint, I would like every PMD to be on the Switch, released on their own. No remake needed, GTI just needs like a text speed increase and it's golden, boom.

I just want companies to focus on new games in general. Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but even for say Pokemon, I really do not care about the prospects of a Gen 5 remake. Gen 6 could be cool I guess with maybe some cut Z content but no shot. Gen 7? Well, I'm dreading this because SM and USUM have very different plots and focuses, and I much prefer the originals.

I really don't want an Explorers DX not just because of the fact it'd be a remake, but also I think RTDX is just a really poor game, and a downgrade as an overall package. It felt lazy as hell, and passionless.

I won't pretend Explorers DX wouldn't be the more likely financial boon, but I doubt that would lead to more new PMD games. Because why bother? Remakes sell, as you said! Just keep going, around and around. In only a few years, RTDX would be pretty easy to remake and make significantly better, especially with the Switch 2.

Spike Chunsoft isn't a company that is really into making original games of this genre anymore in general. They've mostly coasted on Dangonronpa's success and turned Shiren, their own IP, into a Shiren 5 port machine. PMD only has one shot in my opinion: an original title that sells well, or if not, at least we got a real, new game.

 

[Bakugames]

Most games on Switch make record sales for their franchises. Metroid, Fire Emblem, Kirby, Mario, Zelda, almost Pokemon itself, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Super Smash Bros, Splatoon have all had their best selling games on Switch. If anything, the only reason RTDX sold as much as it did is because 1. The Switch basically doubles or triples the sales numbers of games put on it (not even an exaggeration), 2. With Main Series becoming less popular, people talk more about spinoffs.

I don't really care about how well the games perform, anyways. I want new ones.

Don't think you understood my point: a new game would have sold badly. it will probably still sell badly. people do not want new pmd games, the best selling game they had was dx because it's just rescuers again which is an old game people actually like. Dx didn't actually make record sales either, it's still currently the one with least sales too. This is a franchise that is one mid performance from being shelved. Releasing remakes is the only way pmd stays alive rn. Hell, it probably got shelved and then they brought it back just for the remakes.

 

[ant4456]

Don't think you understood my point: a new game would have sold badly. it will probably still sell badly. people do not want new pmd games, the best selling game they had was dx because it's just rescuers again which is an old game people actually like. Dx didn't actually make record sales either, it's still currently the one with least sales too. This is a franchise that is one mid performance from being shelved. Releasing remakes is the only way pmd stays alive rn. Hell, it probably got shelved and then they brought it back just for the remakes.

I don't think you got my point either, to be fair. I would rather PMD die and get one last game than become zombie remake Hell. I'd also probably prefer it dying to remakes, too. If its fate is remake hell or death, I will take death every time.

Anywho, I've talked too much about this, sorry.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I sort of touched on this in my original post but I really do think the central appeal of PMD that has kept it alive in the fandom consciousness for all these years is it being a setting where the Pokemon themselves are characters who talk and run society completely independent of human intervention. Hence the PMD fandom's main collective pastime being fanfiction: You can mine that central premise endlessly for effects comedic and dramatic alike, and the possibilities keep growing alongside the roster. The main reason why people request PMD 5 to begin with is to get fun characterizations for Pokemon from Alola onward. Perhaps a grumpy old martial arts master Drampa, or the Ultra Beasts as a recurring antagonist faction akin to Organization XIII, or a rescue team consisting of all 3 Meowth variants who share a close brotherly bond.

It's frankly shocking to me this idea hasn't really been officially explored outside the confines of this subseries and Pokepark. Where's the Animal Crossing-style life simulator, or even a different type of RPG with a lot more settlements to show off creative worldbuilding?

 

[ant4456]

I sort of touched on this in my original post but I really do think the central appeal of PMD that has kept it alive in the fandom consciousness for all these years is it being a setting where the Pokemon themselves are characters who talk and run society completely independent of human intervention. Hence the PMD fandom's main collective pastime being fanfiction: You can mine that central premise endlessly for effects comedic and dramatic alike, and the possibilities keep growing alongside the roster. The main reason why people request PMD 5 to begin with is to get fun characterizations for Pokemon from Alola onward. Perhaps a grumpy old martial arts master Drampa, or the Ultra Beasts as a recurring antagonist faction akin to Organization XIII, or a rescue team consisting of all 3 Meowth variants who share a close brotherly bond.

It's frankly shocking to me this idea hasn't really been officially explored outside the confines of this subseries and Pokepark. Where's the Animal Crossing-style life simulator, or even a different type of RPG with a lot more settlements to show off creative worldbuilding?

IMO a Pokemon Animal Crossing game would be peak. Not as a spinoff though, a mainline title! Like, you plant flowers which get certain Pokemon to come by, fish at different seasons for different Pokemon species. A carnival comes in town as a traveling Pokemon League. You form rivalries dynamically with the people around town!

It also could have Pokemon training be a more gradual process. You will love your Garchomp all the more when you put in some actual dedication to get it, and you will cherish it.

Would it be a competitive/action masterpiece? No, but it would make collecting and training feel more rewarding and dynamic imo. And with random traits for towns, it could truly accomplish Satoshi Tajiri's dream, and original plan of having the Pokemon have 65,000 randomized versions to incentivize trading a lot.

 

[Ironmage]

Honestly, I'm just sad at this point. I feel dependant on remakes for something to even vaguely get excited for since I can no longer trust any sequel to have why I was interested in the first place. More than PMD, More than Pokemon as a whole, I feel anchored to the past because I can't see myself in the future.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Sorry if catching in on some discussion late... and no, I don't really have anything to contribute to the current PMD discussion, sorry :

I'm not convinced Mewtwo should be/should have been considered "strong enough to not need a Mega" since it should be compared to boxart legends and they often have Abilities they can make better use of while maintaining similar BST to base Mewtwo.

I think this goes back to the issue of all Mega getting +100 BST. There should be no issue with any Pokemon considered fully evolved getting a Mega, though there are some Pokemon where they need +100 BST, some which need a bit more, and some that can do with a bit less (but that's still not a biggie as they can make up for it with better Typing, stat re-distribution, and Ability). Say Pokemon with 670+ BST only get +50. Here's how they could have made the Mega Mewtwo less stat strong but still battle powerful:

Normal (Psychic): 106/110/90/154/90/130//680 / Ability: Pressure
Mega Y (Psychic): 106/90/100/174/110/140//720 / Ability: Magic Bounce
Mega X (Psychic/Fighting): 106/174/120/90/110/110//720 / Ability: Moxie

I'd like to ask something in the wake of all the videos I've seen talking about future Legends games: can we stop trying to assign Pokemon to these games who don't deserve to be? What, just because the first Legends game did it means Celebi and Kyurem need games named after them as well?

(...) And as far as I'm aware, there's no mention anywhere of Kyurem being the original dragon itself; only that it's the husk left over from when the original dragon split into Reshiram and Zekrom. In that sense, it isn't any more the original than a Shedinja is a Nincada.

You have a point with Celebi, there's really no major lore surrounding Celebi and the Johto region. If any Legendary was going to be assigned the Legends Johto game it would likely be Ho-Oh.

But for Kyurem. REALLY? Comparing its importance is equivalent to Shedinja because it's the leftover body of the Original Dragon (presumably)? If the point of Legends games was to look into the history of, or at least the name of their title, an important Legendary to that region, YES, Kyurem would be the Unova Legends. As far as we know, the Original Dragon goes by the name Kyurem & major plot points in the Gen V games involve either Kyurem or the dragons which split from it. Naturally, the Unova Legends game would cover the time of the two princes and their civil war to claim the crown.

Lets be real though the next one should be Legends: Guyana

Honestly, if they do make another Legends game, it may just be better to stick away from naming a specific Pokemon and focus on a central theme of the game.

I'm having the same thoughts with the less likely future Let's Go games; Pikachu and Eevee were easy mascot they could do some creative stuff with. Trying to re-create that with other generations I don't feel will work as well. If they want to do that, might as well make the next Let's Go game take place in a unique region so they can pick or even create the mascot duo. Otherwise, if they base a Let's Go game on an old region, unless they do make new Pokemon, may be better to instead focus on a new mechanic.

Remember when everyone expected a Let's Go: Johto, and it never happened, because like Legends: Arceus it was just a experiment and GameFreaks never gives followup to their experiments?

Good point, maybe "Let's Go" and "Legends" aren't their own spinoff series but are rather part of a grander "Main Spinoff" series. Now if they get a sequel in the future, well, great, but honestly GF is more likely to want to do a new idea that they feel is more fitting to the older region they want to revisit. Maybe one day one of these games will finally let us play as a member of the villain team.

Unova isn't necessarily unsuited to one but there's no guarantee that the Unova revisit down the line will be a Legends game. For all we know it could actually be a Black 3 and White 3. Especially considering one of Gen 5's gimmicks is that its follow up game was not a third version or DLC, but rather a sequel story, as Black 2 and White 2, a third game to round it off as a trilogy would be a move I could imagine them doing. Which is to say, you never know what might happen.

Don't play with my emotions.

Now I want "anti-Legends" games: taking Galar or Paldea and reimagining them back into the older map style I prefer.

AKA a Demake. Hey, you joke, but Dragon Quest XI Definitive Edition came with a mode that lets you play them like they were the older games. Surely if Square is able to do that than GameFreak can.

Must we always do this? Someone slanders XY and I have to return to set things right.

Fine, lets settle this now:

Was XY good games? Yes.

Were XY the best Pokemon games? Depends on who you ask. If you liked the direction Gen V had with a more story heavy angle, no, XY is gonna disappoint you on that end. If you didn't like Gen V's story focus and just want a basic Pokemon game with a lot of bells & whistles to try out, than you'll very much like XY. Back when it was released XY was also praised for making the 3D jump that Gen V was criticized not doing. Of course nowadays this is a moot point and you may personally find the graphics of Gen VI to be odd as they went with a chibi overworld aesthetic.

I personally was disappointed with XY as I like the story focus of Gen V, but I had a good with XY for what it was. Just wished they tried a bit more with the story.

Pokemon games are meant to be flexible. They're meant to be played through in an enormous variety of ways.

I just want the option to turn the Exp. Share on and off (oh, and the Affection bonuses).

Well, actually, I want the option to revert the Exp. Share to how it was before gen VI. I'd even be fine if it only gave additional experience to the lowest Level Pokemon in your party.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

(I'll talk about Gen 5 someday, just you wait)

please

 

[ant4456]

Good point, maybe "Let's Go" and "Legends" aren't their own spinoff series but are rather part of a grander "Main Spinoff" series. Now if they get a sequel in the future, well, great, but honestly GF is more likely to want to do a new idea that they feel is more fitting to the older region they want to revisit. Maybe one day one of these games will finally let us play as a member of the villain team.

I mentioned it before, but Legends Arceus and Let's Go are basically the same(ish) staff. They are both the "Veteran Team" as I call them at Game Freak, being older staff.

That's why both are way more focused on catching than battling.

 

[Sonikku A]

Wow, I missed the PMD talk
Several things

-Teambuilding, at least in the main story, is a waste of time. For a Pokemon game without a fixed roster i.e. Pokepark, this is about as fundamental of a failure as it gets. Your starters are buffed to high heaven and all the recruited Pokemon you get are weak. Level 13 Scyther should not have over 10 less HP than Level 15 Charmander, that's all there is to it. Frankly I could file this complaint under a broader one of this game's balancing being absolutely inscrutable at times: For example, considering this was pre-DP, why does Silent Chasm Yanma give more EXP when defeated than Ampharos in the same location and nearly as much as Arcanine later on in Mt. Blaze? And that's small fry stuff: If I had the energy I could devote an entire series of paragraphs to the absurdity of the power gaps between starters. Any Grass starter in this game is effectively a challenge run.

-Pokemon Square is a disappointingly empty hub. The benchmark of comparison I'm using here is Jubilife Village, and it's no contest. Jubilife does this cool thing, you see, where it actually evolves over the course of the game and you can talk to the joe schmoe villagers and do fun little sidequests that give you insight on this time period of the Pokemon world and how the commoners are adjusting to it. Meanwhile in Pokemon Square you can't even enter any of the houses. The whole appeal of PMD's world is seeing the Pokemon themselves be characters and how they run a society, so why not show more of that? Imagine being able to go into Lotad's house and its a big jacuzzi with lily pads, or Bellsprout's home being a greenhouse overgrowing with vines.

-And now the big dealbreaker that made me throw in the towel: This story is fuckin lame, dude. I was immensely caught off-guard by how fast you get to Great Canyon, and not in a good way: It feels like there are a whole 3 dungeons of setup cut with how abruptly the game pivots to the exiling of the player from the village. Gengar the known troublemaker who tried to extort a child tells the village that your existence will bring about the apocalypse and everyone just... Believes him unconditionally. Team ACT doesn't buy it, but they don't even try to use their fame and moral authority to stand up for you. There can be no adequate descriptor for this series of events other than "complete bullshit". If it's not at the Chairman Rose's heel turn tier of contrivance, it sure as hell ain't far behind. And yknow what? Normally, I wouldn't even care. My second and third favorite main series games have pretty nothing plots too. But after being inundated with years of hype about PMD being the spinoff with consistently great storytelling 95% of the core games' material can't even hold a candle to, my expectations were raised to a level that this junk doesn't come close to fulfilling.

First while I agree partially for Teambuilding, I do find it funny Magnemite is actually decent. A lvl 10 Magnemite is roughly on par with Lvl 15 you/partner, so even after the fugitive arc he can assist well if maintained. Same for being one of the first levitating mons, so he can chase enemies better if needed, whittle down defenses with Metal Sound. Unfortunately as noted, menuing and teams being reset each day severely hamper its use both casually and speedrun wise.

Spoilers?

Absol ironically isn't too good, especially moveset wise, though Quick Attack is good for sniping

Balance is absolutely bonkers though, and Def being based on both stat and level first game curves things to where special moves likely will do more damage than physical (this is noticeable for Groudon). Fury Attack from Beedrills does nill (50-60% range), but my Psyduck gets one shot by Tangela in Lapis cave via Absorb :V

Also fuck Articuno

Grass Types I partially disagree bar Mt. Blaze (even then, eh) and Frosty Forest. Cubone and especially Machop fair worse. Many grass types at least have sniping razor leaf or high crit Vine whip for damage, status moves, and decent stats. Cubone has no SE stab the entire campaign despite bonemerang, Machop has 0 range, eh defenses, and really sucks against birds

Story wise the issue of you being outed was forshadowed before Great Canyon. Alakazam is aware of the legend (it's why he tells you to go to Great Canyon), but kept it secret before for your safety given you at this point have proven you aren't a bad person, nor did Xatu make the connection to events yet. Incidentally, no one would've fully believed Gengar if not for YOU being suspiciously quiet and accepting his claims given the dream the night earlier
I can't even say they were 100% on board either. Lombre was apologizing before attacking you, most give up before Lapis Cave, and even if you/your partner lie and deny everything, nothing prevents Gengar from just sending a neutral party to Xatu to get a similar cryptic message for proof: you're connected to the disasters. It's SoL for the player either way, just shortened and escalated due to the player's guilt

You didn't get past Mt. Blaze, so this is another thing. The game's aware how hard the fugitive arc is, so the events between that until Groudon are super chill. It also gives time to buff another member if you need it (hah, nooooo), farm cash and items in Great Canyon, etc.

Now here's a bigger issue I feel should've been focused on:

Spoilers I guess

if the Ninetales here is the same one from the legend, then wouldn't this mean that the PMD residents live in the far future after human civilization perished? The Decrepit Lab Friend area flat out says
An abandoned lab built by humans long ago. Left to fall into disrepair, it is now home to Pokémon
So wouldn't it make more sense to say the player's from the past? And what happened to mankind anyway?

100% agree for remake talk though. RTDX gets me for basically being BDSP/SwSh in terms of awkwardly porting lowres assets onto Switch. The movesets make it clear nothing from Gen 8 was compensated, and level up movesets force an even worse forced tierlist for starters than OG. Same for lack of stacked abilities oddly, obnoxiously large recruiting mid dungeon, and graphically I hate the cruddy shader. It is NOT watercolor, it is oversaturated processing!

Here's the last thing, I think the isekai gimmick PMD has isn't necessary. I think you can completely just have sentient mons like Pokepark with no strings attached. Super's story I argue is stupidly convoluted cuz of this, and even the devs noted how the isekai idea got tired for that game. Unfortunately they're also aware it was the only gimmick that stood out, so they ceased making new poke entries after 3DS' sales failure. RTDX if anything solidifies the inability to shake it off, and most fanfiction I've seen hasn't realized it. It's too engrained to PMD's identity

 

[ant4456]

Wow, I missed the PMD talk
Several things


First while I agree partially for Teambuilding, I do find it funny Magnemite is actually decent. A lvl 10 Magnemite is roughly on par with Lvl 15 you/partner, so even after the fugitive arc he can assist well if maintained. Same for being one of the first levitating mons, so he can chase enemies better if needed, whittle down defenses with Metal Sound. Unfortunately as noted, menuing and teams being reset each day severely hamper its use both casually and speedrun wise.

Spoilers?

Absol ironically isn't too good, especially moveset wise, though Quick Attack is good for sniping

Balance is absolutely bonkers though, and Def being based on both stat and level first game curves things to where special moves likely will do more damage than physical (this is noticeable for Groudon). Fury Attack from Beedrills does nill (50-60% range), but my Psyduck gets one shot by Tangela in Lapis cave via Absorb :V

Also fuck Articuno

Grass Types I partially disagree bar Mt. Blaze (even then, eh) and Frosty Forest. Cubone and especially Machop fair worse. Many grass types at least have sniping razor leaf or high crit Vine whip for damage, status moves, and decent stats. Cubone has no SE stab the entire campaign despite bonemerang, Machop has 0 range, eh defenses, and really sucks against birds

Story wise the issue of you being outed was forshadowed before Great Canyon. Alakazam is aware of the legend (it's why he tells you to go to Great Canyon), but kept it secret before for your safety given you at this point have proven you aren't a bad person, nor did Xatu make the connection to events yet. Incidentally, no one would've fully believed Gengar if not for YOU being suspiciously quiet and accepting his claims given the dream the night earlier
I can't even say they were 100% on board either. Lombre was apologizing before attacking you, most give up before Lapis Cave, and even if you/your partner lie and deny everything, nothing prevents Gengar from just sending a neutral party to Xatu to get a similar cryptic message for proof: you're connected to the disasters. It's SoL for the player either way, just shortened and escalated due to the player's guilt

You didn't get past Mt. Blaze, so this is another thing. The game's aware how hard the fugitive arc is, so the events between that until Groudon are super chill. It also gives time to buff another member if you need it (hah, nooooo), farm cash and items in Great Canyon, etc.

Now here's a bigger issue I feel should've been focused on:

Spoilers I guess

if the Ninetales here is the same one from the legend, then wouldn't this mean that the PMD residents live in the far future after human civilization perished? The Decrepit Lab Friend area flat out says
An abandoned lab built by humans long ago. Left to fall into disrepair, it is now home to Pokémon
So wouldn't it make more sense to say the player's from the past? And what happened to mankind anyway?

100% agree for remake talk though. RTDX gets me for basically being BDSP/SwSh in terms of awkwardly porting lowres assets onto Switch. The movesets make it clear nothing from Gen 8 was compensated, and level up movesets force an even worse forced tierlist for starters than OG. Same for lack of stacked abilities oddly, obnoxiously large recruiting mid dungeon, and graphically I hate the cruddy shader. It is NOT watercolor, it is oversaturated processing!

Here's the last thing, I think the isekai gimmick PMD has isn't necessary. I think you can completely just have sentient mons like Pokepark with no strings attached. Super's story I argue is stupidly convoluted cuz of this, and even the devs noted how the isekai idea got tired for that game. Unfortunately they're also aware it was the only gimmick that stood out, so they ceased making new poke entries after 3DS' sales failure. RTDX if anything solidifies the inability to shake it off, and most fanfiction I've seen hasn't realized it. It's too engrained to PMD's identity

I wanted to answer some things in this post as a lore nerd:

Basically, PMD doesn't take place in the world of the mainline series, anything in the first game attributed to humans is mostly retconned. Humans never existed in this world. Later games make this more clear with similar setups, and PSMD at least soft confirms that all games take place in the same world at a similar time, which makes it even weirder considering that that means four major apocalypses happened within a lifespan... Or we can take that as just fanservice. I'm not gonna judge any interpretation, just saying what happens.


Ninetales is a Pokemon that can live for around a thousand years, that's why it was able to live so long.

 

[AztecCroc]

I wanted to answer some things in this post as a lore nerd:

Basically, PMD doesn't take place in the world of the mainline series, anything in the first game attributed to humans is mostly retconned. Humans never existed in this world. Later games make this more clear with similar setups, and PSMD at least soft confirms that all games take place in the same world at a similar time, which makes it even weirder considering that that means four major apocalypses happened within a lifespan... Or we can take that as just fanservice. I'm not gonna judge any interpretation, just saying what happens.


Ninetales is a Pokemon that can live for around a thousand years, that's why it was able to live so long.

You are explicitly a human in the Explorers games, and SMD. Not sure about the gen 5 one, I never played it.

 

[ant4456]

You are explicitly a human in the Explorers games, and SMD. Not sure about the gen 5 one, I never played it.

Yes you are, but in SMD and GTI you come from another universe explicitly. And in Explorers it's just entirely unexplained, but your theory about PMD taking place post humans could not work then because you are a human from the future, already far post PMD world being PMD.

 

[Sonikku A]

SMD got Wigglytuff's gender wrong, it was legit fanservice
All games take place in separate continuities. Too many inconsistencies otherwise