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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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gambit is broken, in fact if we were to take the statistical number of who voted on the suspect, 55% of people think kingambit is banned of the qualified playerbase
nuh uh! the only reason its fine rn is because a lot of teams are forced into the exact same structures, and a part of that is due to gambit. It is restricting to have to use so much to bait one Pokemon, and as I will later say, it can still lose.
fun fact, hard counters >>>>>>>>>>> "uhh uhh just be in the right position / sack mons to encore wisp and then probably still lose", at best magearna could vswitch or tera on it, but in the case of it and other broken mons at least if I run a Skeledirge (It basically needs a lot of chip before, or Stored Power needs to be 200+ BP) I'm mostly safe, you are never safe from Gambit, ever, no not even with your 3 checks. You can still lose, even with Pokemon at full health.
if things like tusk were enough to check gambit from full, no one would think gambit is broken. No one would think Gambit is broken if by running Wisp you truly incapacitate it, but it doesn't.
so 90% of the tier
technically, it has to use wishtect because alolatales + glowking (which is a free switch in) kills moonlight, which is also 8pp. On top of probably losing most utility, Clefable has 1 less moveslot because transfers likely. If nothing changes, it will probably just be another hazard setter that is bulky, but also doesnt really get much done. CM is probably dead, Unaware will be bad, it is more limited in moves. Clefable is heavily neutered this time around, and I don't see it rising to the top of the metagame.
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 176-210 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 339-399 (96.3 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
you said balance breaker so this is SD gliscor
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 297-351 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 152-182 (48.2 - 57.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
not only can gholdengo recover off after the knock but it wins 1v1 very easily
this mon is just another breaker of which the tier has 50,000 of, and will probably genuinely have very little effect on the metagame, not that it will be bad, I predict it to be good, but because we are already broken checks broken
as for the legendaries who know, based on typing's I've heard I can see some of them being good but not most of them, one is supposed to be Poison/Fighting and Sneasler is right there so whatevs
anywho, my point being that the DLC is not a reason to not make suspect tests or to suddenly retest everything down. The only reason retesting everything in HOME/Crown Tundra made sense is because those added all of the legendaries and thus the power level jumped, and a larger percentage of those Pokemon were actual contenders for OU viability.
Keep suspecting things, if we take a pause for the DLC that will be a bIunder. Even if they don't pass, that honestly just strengthens the theory that the council and playerbase needs to reconcile on what the goal of tiering this generation is at this point.
I could see Archaludon being a pretty good Eject Pack attacking lead assuming Lando-T usage keeps dropping (and even vs Lead Lando-T, Eject Pack can be OK to swap into a more favorable match-up). Since it has Sturdy, it is guaranteed to setup Rocks barring a stray Taunt. It has Flash Cannon for Hatterene, is immune to Glimmora's Mortal Spin, and can option select Tera Ghost vs Tusk. Stealth Rock -> Draco lets it pivot into a more favorable MU, while chunking Pokemon like Great Tusk pretty hard. If its slow, this could be pretty nice to give it similar slow pivoting utility as something like Slowking-G.
252 SpA Duraludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 333-393 (76.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Honestly, I don't think this role will be all that relevant in OU since SR isn't as good as Spikes imo and other leads like Ting-Lu, Samur-H, and Glimmora give you more bang for your buck, but it could be pretty fun.
In terms of current suspects, I think one thing we should do now before the DLC drops is decide whether or not Tera Blast should be banned. It would make the decision to retest stuff like Volcarona, Espathra, and Regieleki much easier and more convenient, since we can bring them back with the new additions. I think this would have to be done via a council vote since the window for a suspect is narrow.
The fact that we have a Magic Guard mon in a meta with limited hazard removal and Garg is such a big deal. Clef can makes its own progress with T-Wave, Rocks, CM, or Trick Barb. Not to mention its ability to check Valiant, Bax, and Garg. Clef is in the “hazard setters that beat Tusk” club along with Lando, Tera Ice Shocks, and Chain Chomp. Made more valuable by the fact Clef has reliable recovery and doesn’t need to burn a Tera. Speaking of which, there is alot of Tera potential with Clef, like Tera Water or Fire to flip its mu against Ghold, or Tera Ground to 1v1 T-Wave Glowking.
But the most important thing is its immunity to hazards. The reason defogless styles have been seen in Gen 8 OU is that Clef was an excellent switch in to Knock Off due to its immunity to hazards, resistance to the move, and reliable recovery. That and also Gliscor being a great Knock absorber as well means while we don’t have reliable hazard removal besides Tusk/Cinder, we can now build teams without them thanks to Boots spam and Clef/Gliscor, which is a problem SV OU currently has. Clef’s ability to check Valiant also means partner Glowking doesn’t have to run Colbur and instead could run actually useful items like Boots.
https://pokepast.es/68e63ffaf77e7a73
Just a theorycraft
This is insane tbh. Literally nothing that is coming gives any indication these are unbanworthy Pokémon
Isn't the best Bax set rn DDance Subsitute with Tera
tera ICE? you are a sick individual
this is good, but not if it's a fat blob, that's the problems with the Pokemon defensively right now. They don't do anything when they get in safely, and Clefable seems to be mostly the same.
literally the most overrated threat in the tier, especially for a playerbase that also is saying "actually running Encore everywhere is good", so I don't really want to hear it
what does it do that is unique and specifically does well against offense, Twave I guess is there but that isn't gonna be enough. Clef will be good probably but not a mainstay top tier. Calm Mind struggles because no reliable recovery, Moonlight will be easy to disrupt and thus can only help a little
so every hazard setter besides ting lu because 90% of the tier shits on tusk
debatable
I agree for Calm Mind, but do we really need another Calm Mind Tera sweeper??
This is exactly why I'm saying Clefable isn't gonna be as good as we are talking about it as. What is Clefable doing when it gets in? Twave? Rocks? Knock Off is something that works at least once against every team before they dedicate something to take Knock, and it makes great progress. Clefable can't do that anymore. It will be good as a middleground option defensive Pokemon against some Pokemon like Valiant, but I think it will be really big offensive Tera bait, like Tera Steel or something on Valiant. It doesn't even OHKO Bax, imagine switching in on the SD?
I can kind of see the reasoning for Lando-I. It works better in slower formats due to its awkward Speed tier and thus isn't as impactful in a highly offensive meta, especially since it currently lacks Rock Polish. But if it gets a Speed-boosting move then all bets are off.
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I doubt it'd be healthy, but it's true that it was the only prebanned HOME mon which actually got nerfed. Sure, Lando-I with Nasty Plot is insane, but it could already 2hko most of the tier anyway. As you said it sits in a weird speed tier w/o RP, especially in gen 9 which has been speed crept to high hell
Yeah I am taking a break, decided that yesterday and played my last few ladder matches today.
No real reason to play until DLC drops so it's a perfect time to take a hiatus.
I only talk poorly about the current state of the meta because I know it could be improved.
Council could do a QB of Tera Blast and the meta instantly gets better overnight.
Very few ppl enjoy the meta in it's current state, pro tera or not.
Council can't do much w Tera as the community can't agree on what should or shouldn't be done and most likely never will.
Players are inadvertently voting against their best interests and nothing can change that either it seems.
The DLC mons are just more mons that are OHKO to fallen 5 +2 sucker, or get tera'd on and lose that way, I don't really get the hype.
When we get new sweeper, wallbreakers, and fat stall mons that will have multiple viable teras, I can't see how that makes things better.
You already have to be ready for the insane threats we have, and prep for the 2-4 teras that they might be.
I actually encourage everyone to take this time between DLC off and come back fresh when we have some new toys that will be fun to break.
I think I didn't make a clear post tho :$ I wanted to say that those are probably the mons the council should have in consideration for unbanning once we have a clearer idea of what DLC1 is going to look like, much like they did with HOME before. I don't really believe they should be unbanned (except Volc maybe) until tera is dealt with, but I believe they merit consideration.
Its only 2x weak to fighting so it lives a cc
If you don't believe that any of the Pokemon you listed should be unbanned, why advocate for the council to do the opposite? If you're going to argue for an action, at least show your work and explain your reasoning. If you personally even don't believe it, I can only imagine it'd be hard for you to support your claim.
I think Lando-I might be a somewhat plausible unban candidate. The only case against it is that Tera types can already improve Lando-I's breaking capability as well as make him hard to RK. Also, Lando-I with NP makes it extremely hard to play around.
the last tera suspect was 4 weeks and i would think this one would be the same. at the current time, that would bring us literally right up to the dlc release date
except the only things that could pretend to check it are either dexited or nerfed beyond the point of being able to even pretend anymore, and now it has nasty plot. it didn't even really lose anything vital in the transferpocalypse, knock off was never crucial to it
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That's perfect, new mons new meta no more Tera all at the same time. Meta settles much faster.
As spoken in discord earlier, any Uber could be dropped into Tera OU and the playerbase would "adapt" as its so unbalanced as is. If every match ending in "the Kingambit part" is acceptable, what isn't?
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except we would immediately have to reevaluate tera because of the meta shift. one of the many, many problems with banning tera (aside from it being, y'know, not actually banworthy) is that a ban won't stick. people assume that just because dmax never got retested the same will be true for tera
oh yeah, that's what would happen. remember when chien-pao dropped and the meta adapted to it?
Ehh, saying its not banworthy is a little bit of a stretch, as we likely won't know if its banworthy unless some kind of restriction is in place. Either way, tera in its current state probably can't be maintained
why
why would that be a thing
the meta has nothing to do with tera's merits as a mechanic. at all. period. if the meta is LC tera's problems are still tera's problems, and the strengths are still the strengths. to view Tera as a meta aspect is a mistake, it is something that effects every single battle in every tier of SV regardless of meta
Yeah, I don't think I can do this anymore. Playing OU during the suspect test just made it clear this gen's OU isn't for me. Too many Kingambit/Iron Valiant sweeps.
I'll just go hide in UU into something changes. After all, as they say, with this Gen's UU resembling last month's OU....
I'll just go hide in UU into something changes. After all, as they say, with this Gen's UU resembling last month's OU....
Glad you asked. Its mu against HO is good for a few reasons
1: Its immunity to spikes and stealth rocks is valuable since most HOs rn run Ting-Lu/Samu/Glimm/etc cause spikes are broken and they turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs or 2HKOs into OHKOs. Due to this, it makes preserving Clef’s health easier against aggressive styles.
2: Fairy STAB is incredibly annoying for HO to switch into. Its why mons like Azu and opposing Valiant pose awkward mus for them. HO teams tend to have one or two Fairy resists (Ghold/Moth). Moth gets crippled by T-Wave and Ghold who gets hit hard by Flamethrower.
I do want to talk about a Clef set I’ve been theorycrafting that fixes its passivity and keep its defensive profile.
Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water/Ground/Fire/Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind/Thunder Wave
72 SpA EVs to have a 50/50 chance to OHKO full HP Bax meanwhile +2 Bax doesn’t OHKO it at full. Meaning if Bax took any bit of chip, ggs.
72+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 343-406 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 188 Def Clefable: 310-366 (78.8 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Flamethrower 2HKOs standard Amoonguss and 196 HP Ghold, conditioning the latter to either click Recover or MiR.
Calm Mind is better in the Glowking mu than in Gen 8 since Glowkings don’t run SpA investment like in SS. Which means after 2 Calm Minds..
0 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. +2 248 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 116-138 (29.5 - 35.1%) -- 9.3% chance to 3HKO
+2 72+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking-Galar: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
Clef’s bulk means very few things barring Gambit’s Iron Head, or Modest Moth Sludge can OHKO it. What about Ghold?
252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 320-378 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Apologies for the long posts but I am just incredibly excited to see Clef in this meta. I’m also super excited for Gliscor who shrugs off sr chip with Poison Heal and provides utility via Knock/SR/Taunt/U-Turn. Plus if Gliscor regains Defog, big W for us.
The last reply I will make about this is simple: Moonlight will not be viable. Period. Unless Baxcalibur gets banned and somehow AV Alolan Ninetales falls off, Hail and probably Rain with Archaludon will be a big part of the meta. Thus, you need wish/tect. Thus, you don't have a slot for Moon/FBlast/Calm Mind. That's the main issue IMO, I'd be more into Clefable's return if it kept Knock Off or Softboiled.
I really do hope it remains really good, I just have my doubts. We can both agree on hoping Clefable succeeds, I am just not confident. Good posts, by the way.
It'll be hard for a set to fall off when it doesn't exist seriously to begin with.
We... Don't even know Archaludon',s stats. There's zero guarantee it'll even have a niche at all.
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