SPOILERS! Scarlet & Violet Leaks Thread - Data/Mechanics

R_N said:
Killing Gamefreak with hammers
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According to a summary of the previews on 4chan (grains of salt and all that), the EXP Charm is locked behind Ogre Oustin, so at least they're not forcing it down people's throats this time.

(Also hello, had to make an account for a password reset so I thought I might as well pop in here)
 
Pax_Unda said:
According to a summary of the previews on 4chan (grains of salt and all that), the EXP Charm is locked behind Ogre Oustin, so at least they're not forcing it down people's throats this time.

(Also hello, had to make an account for a password reset so I thought I might as well pop in here)
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I'd still like if you could just turn it off but tying it to the minigame isn't too bad if that's true (knock on wood), especially since between Mochis and Tera Shards it's clearly the thing you're meant to mess with when you're wanting to raise up dudes.
 
Mario With Lasers said:
I hope Toxic gets a sensible, limited distribution

But we're talking about the same dev team who gave Stealth Rock to Blissey and the Sinnoh pixie trio, so
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I agree for the most part, but Toxic is much worse than Stealth Rock, at least to me. You can get rid of the latter fairly simply, while there's very few ways to get rid of status conditions. And Badly Poison basically cripples a Mon for the entire game as does increasingly higher DOT.

Plus, while a lot of mons can learn Stealth Rock, it was still nowhere near as ubiquitous as Toxic where literally every Mon except a select few pre-evolved ones could learn it.

Its absolutely a move that should have been limited and I'm shocked it took them over 20 years to address that.
 
Pokemon Trainer: Shadow said:
Its absolutely a move that should have been limited and I'm shocked it took them over 20 years to address that.
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Actually, the move has been limited since last generation already, just people had not noticed due to the smogon ruling allowing transfer moves.

But don't worry, it's not like there's a trio of probably competitively viable semi-legendaries who toxic by attacking... :wo:
 
Also there's actual precedent for Toxic TM distribution to be gutted - BDSP. Even with it being "aN eXTreMeLy fAIthFUl rEMAkE" they STILL took the time to completely gut the Toxic TM distribution. The only other move whose distribution was gutted that fucking badly in BDSP was Hidden Power, which GF seems to want to completely sweep under the bush now.

I'm expecting the distribution of Toxic with this TM to be largely the same as it was in BDSP - almost completely restricted to Poison types with a few exceptions like Quagsire, Breloom, (who are some of the few non-Poison mons who get Toxic level up) by Mandibuzz, and Toedscruel (who get Toxic by Egg Move) It could be slightly more increased than what we had in BDSP, but it's clear from recent decisions that GF doesn't want universal Toxic to be a thing anymore, and they're trying their hardest to make sure it's not going to be a thing anymore.
 
After noticing the reduced learnability of Mud-Slap and Tailwind, I decided to go over all the TM learnlists and compare them to their learnlists from previous generations. Came up with this as a result.

I have yet to find a sensible way to display the information but the meat of what you're looking for is from A404 down-rightward.

Basically I'm trying to only compare cases where a mon learned something BY TM/TUTOR SPECIFICALLY but DON'T in SV. The "gains" section is a bit polluted where I forgot to restrict my queries so it's not as helpful. But there's quite a few losses that are notable or I just felt like mentioning!
  • Flareon loses Flame Charge (right after gaining Trailblaze!)
  • A bunch of losses of Dragon Tail
  • Many losses of Tailwind incl Charizard, Hawlucha and Giratina-O
  • Magikarp loses Hydro Pump (MEAN!)
  • !!!! WOOPER LOSES ICE PUNCH THE MEME IS DEAD !!! (Gastly still has it tho)
  • Pikachu and non-Alolan Raichu lose Calm Mind
  • Crabominable loses Stone Edge
  • Applin loses Draco Meteor (the first Dragon to lose it!)
  • Muk-Alola loses Foul Play
There's a few TM learns that were only in the PLA tutors that I list separately bc they only existed in the one game
  • Decidueye-Hisui loses Spikes
  • Arcanine-Hisui loses Play Rough
  • Basculegion loses Zen Headbutt and Psychic
  • Sneasler and Lilligant-Hisui lose Drain Punch
  • Toxicroak and Croagunk lose Earth Power
  • Ralts line loses Ice Beam
  • Heracross loses Outrage
The biggest losses overall are in any moves that haven't been TMs or tutors in a while, like Mud-Slap and Air Cutter. Absolute bloodbath in there:

1693874473721.png
 
StarFalcon555 said:
Also there's actual precedent for Toxic TM distribution to be gutted - BDSP. Even with it being "aN eXTreMeLy fAIthFUl rEMAkE" they STILL took the time to completely gut the Toxic TM distribution. The only other move whose distribution was gutted that fucking badly in BDSP was Hidden Power, which GF seems to want to completely sweep under the bush now.

I'm expecting the distribution of Toxic with this TM to be largely the same as it was in BDSP - almost completely restricted to Poison types with a few exceptions like Quagsire, Breloom, (who are some of the few non-Poison mons who get Toxic level up) by Mandibuzz, and Toedscruel (who get Toxic by Egg Move) It could be slightly more increased than what we had in BDSP, but it's clear from recent decisions that GF doesn't want universal Toxic to be a thing anymore, and they're trying their hardest to make sure it's not going to be a thing anymore.
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I have to wonder if we'll ever see an attempt to "rehabilitate" Hidden Power. GF clearly removed it because of how RNG dependent it was (and being a case where Bottlecaps flat-out couldn't fix the issue either, due to how the move worked), but in the process the move has kinda left a hole in high-level Pokemon which we've yet to really fill. Tera Blast kinda fills the niche currently, but there's no chance of it lasting past Gen IX either, so the big question is....what now?
 
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StarFalcon555 said:
Also there's actual precedent for Toxic TM distribution to be gutted - BDSP. Even with it being "aN eXTreMeLy fAIthFUl rEMAkE" they STILL took the time to completely gut the Toxic TM distribution. The only other move whose distribution was gutted that fucking badly in BDSP was Hidden Power, which GF seems to want to completely sweep under the bush now.

I'm expecting the distribution of Toxic with this TM to be largely the same as it was in BDSP - almost completely restricted to Poison types with a few exceptions like Quagsire, Breloom, (who are some of the few non-Poison mons who get Toxic level up) by Mandibuzz, and Toedscruel (who get Toxic by Egg Move) It could be slightly more increased than what we had in BDSP, but it's clear from recent decisions that GF doesn't want universal Toxic to be a thing anymore, and they're trying their hardest to make sure it's not going to be a thing anymore.
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Nevermind that BDSP was made by a separate team and company (ILCA), but also that there's not much of a reason to believe this without more example of this happening. Two moves out of hundreds is not a sample size especially when it's from a spin off title.

More than that though, it feels like this thought process is coming from a place of not wanting toxic back in any form of even semi common distribution.

I dunno. I just don't get it. Toxic coming back in some way would be cool for limiting offensive threats.
 
Moyashi said:
Nevermind that BDSP was made by a separate team and company (ILCA), but also that there's not much of a reason to believe this without more example of this happening. Two moves out of hundreds is not a sample size especially when it's from a spin off title.
More than that though, it feels like this thought process is coming from a place of not wanting toxic back in any form of even semi common distribution.
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BDSP was technically made by a seperate company, but was very strictly watched over by GF and TPC basically every step of the way. That is why the game is near a 1:1 with the originals with zero concerns for proper rebalancing - they most likely just flat-out lacked the permission to do anything significant.

Which is why, I'd note, the Toxic change is very fundamental. It's one of the very few mechanical alterations the game has beyond (badly) using modern systems like the EXP share.
 
I feel like there's no way Toxic is coming back as a full distribution move given they took the time to pare down the learnlist of Mud-Slap, a move nobody cares about or uses past the first third of the game. Hoping for a little more care than "literally just what gets it by level-up in 1.0, not even updated for 1.1" at least , which is what BDSP's list was ftr
 
Moyashi said:
Nevermind that BDSP was made by a separate team and company (ILCA), but also that there's not much of a reason to believe this without more example of this happening. Two moves out of hundreds is not a sample size especially when it's from a spin off title.

More than that though, it feels like this thought process is coming from a place of not wanting toxic back in any form of even semi common distribution.

I dunno. I just don't get it. Toxic coming back in some way would be cool for limiting offensive threats.
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The Toxic nerf carried over to SV though, with nobody able to learn it by level up except for Poison mons.

Like you said, they specifically limited the availability of two moves despite the game being a 1:1 remake; the fact they went out of their way to do that reinforces that it will probably carry over to Gen 9.

Sword and Shield was where the Hidden Power nerf came from, not BDSP but it carried over to Gen 9 too.
 
Pokemon Trainer: Shadow said:
The Toxic nerf carried over to SV though, with nobody able to learn it by level up except for Poison mons.
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That's not really new. Most Pokemon already didn't learn it by level up. The majority, vast majority, was through TM. So it's not a "nerf" in that sense.

Pokemon Trainer: Shadow said:
Sword and Shield was where the Hidden Power nerf came from, not BDSP but it carried over to Gen 9 too.
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HP stopped being a TM in swsh and was, as in recall, not even selectable in battle. Quite different from the toxic example. So again, I don't think it's something we can infer from one example (bdsp).

MisogiKurakawa said:
BDSP was technically made by a seperate company, but was very strictly watched over by GF and TPC basically every step of the way. That is why the game is near a 1:1 with the originals with zero concerns for proper rebalancing - they most likely just flat-out lacked the permission to do anything significant.

Which is why, I'd note, the Toxic change is very fundamental. It's one of the very few mechanical alterations the game has beyond (badly) using modern systems like the EXP share.
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Err... That's not really a mechanic change. That's a design change.

Here's where I stand on the subject: if they bring back toxic but severely limited distribution, what would be the point? Majority of poisons already get it by level up and only a handful of non poisons too. They would have to give the move out a bit to justify it as a TM.
 
Unknown Warrior said:
...Or it was pre-release footage of a mock-up fight with animations they had on hand.
...Or it's a new move altogether that reuses the same animation.

I'd be really surprised if GameFreak went through the process of scrubbing Scald from everything and give it a soft (very soft) replacement in Chilling Water only to go "lol nah fam, here you go again" and redistribute it. Its removal seemed to be a very conscious decision.
That said I could see Milotic getting preferential treatment to get it again, but I'd be wary of anyone else getting it.
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They didn't "scrub it from everything" it's just not a TM anymore, the only non-Volcanion Pokemon that ever got it without using the TM were the Panpour line, who aren't in the game.
doipy hooves said:
Ignoring all the other nonsense, they missed Okidogi's officially revealed Brutal Swing on the Japanese website's page for the DLC pokemon. In a similar vein Fezandipiti is shown with Air Slash and Munkidori uses Shadow Ball.
https://www.pokemon.co.jp/ex/sv_dlc/ja/pokemon/230808_03/
View attachment 548430

The Japanese website also confirms that the Loyal Three are not legendary by not putting them in the Legendary section.
View attachment 548431
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I mean it doesn't show the new TMs, so Brutal Swing could just be coming back as one of them and that's where Okidogi gets it, but yeah with actual confirmation that we're getting those TMs with the first batch those movelists are looking pretty fake now.
Valoo said:
It will help it but it still won’t have any decent Dark stab (unless Throat Chop or Knock Off come back as a TMs)
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If all the IoA tutors come back it'll at least have Lash Out?
R_N said:
The hisui evolutions (& Enamorus) all had dex stubs so even if they're not in the dex proper they should likely be available somehow, too. & would make sense to have the other Hisui forms as well.

The smartest way would have just been to go "hey look, they're all here in kitakami! neat!" and incorporate the evolutions into the dex. But they didn't so if they're available at all it will probably be through some side thing of varying convoluted natures.

Maybe space time distortions open up
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They're already available, just only via transfer.
 
Moyashi said:
Err... That's not really a mechanic change. That's a design change.

Here's where I stand on the subject: if they bring back toxic but severely limited distribution, what would be the point? Majority of poisons already get it by level up and only a handful of non poisons too. They would have to give the move out a bit to justify it as a TM.
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I think a design change is still something to note if we're discussing decisions for what they could do rather than explaining what is done in the DLC after we know.

As for why bring it back: They could still give it to a few Pokemon for whom it fits but not by natural level up (Dark types fighting dirty with Poisoned weapons for a flavor example) without giving it to everything including "The Fat Egg that literally runs around healing strangers" or "The God of Abundance that brings bountiful Harvests" as was the case in Gen 7 and carried into Gen 8 by Transfer.

Also depending on application, one could argue for availability to Pokemon that already learn it in future games (as IoA was meant for mid-game in SwSh): I have seen In-Game run discussions of using TMs to teach Pokemon Moves they would learn by level up sooner for better performance, something that gains merit now that TMs are replenishable even if not infinite use as in Gen 5-7 (meaning you would save them for post game if it was PvP relevant). One could argue that Toxic isn't used much in main-game outside of maybe certain challenge run strats but this is to assume GF doesn't want to offer the option for other moves and Toxic being one of the only ways to make your favorite work if it's defensive.

Reasons exist for taking Toxic away and then giving it back to just fewer things.
 
Moyashi said:
That's not really new. Most Pokemon already didn't learn it by level up. The majority, vast majority, was through TM. So it's not a "nerf" in that sense.



HP stopped being a TM in swsh and was, as in recall, not even selectable in battle. Quite different from the toxic example. So again, I don't think it's something we can infer from one example (bdsp).
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I still say its still worth noting; Toxic has been a TM in every game and the second they limit its availability in another game, is when it stops being a TM in the subsequent game. Especially since they specifically reworked Pokemon HOME to delete a Pokemon's moveset upon being put in SV, which wasn't the case last Gen.
 
Mario With Lasers said:
I hope Toxic gets a sensible, limited distribution

But we're talking about the same dev team who gave Stealth Rock to Blissey and the Sinnoh pixie trio, so
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As much as I hate it I can actually kind of understand Stealth Rock on the Chansey/Clefairy/Jigglypuff lines. Happiny carries a rock in its pouch, and the latter two evolve by Moon Stone/are found around Mt. Moon.

I don't really get it for Uxie/Mesprit/Azelf, though. I guess they live in caves, too.
 
CPU said:
As much as I hate it I can actually kind of understand Stealth Rock on the Chansey/Clefairy/Jigglypuff lines. Happiny carries a rock in its pouch, and the latter two evolve by Moon Stone/are found around Mt. Moon.

I don't really get it for Uxie/Mesprit/Azelf, though. I guess they live in caves, too.
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The insanely huge movepools of many Gen 1 lines can be traced back to the very early development of RGB. As detailed here, the initial set of Pokemon designed for the game weren't made with types in mind, as that mechanic was only implemented later into development. Hence you have examples like Clefable being able to use Flamethrower and Ice Beam, that make seemingly zero sense from a worldbuilding POV, but are too widely accepted to really cut at this point. Giving them stuff like Stealth Rock just kinda continued where the originals left off.
 
So now that the full dex has leaked, have those of you who plan to do a separate DLC team gotten anything locked down? I'm currently thinking about

Tinkaton (planning on using a Tinkatink as my "starter" depending on how scaling is done and how high the max level is)
Sinistcha or Dipplin
Quagsire
Torkoal (caught a shiny in the base game) or Salazzle
Bombirdier
???

Sinistcha/Dipplin and Quagsire are my only real locks tbh
 
Pax_Unda said:
So now that the full dex has leaked, have those of you who plan to do a separate DLC team gotten anything locked down? I'm currently thinking about

Tinkaton (planning on using a Tinkatink as my "starter" depending on how scaling is done and how high the max level is)
Sinistcha or Dipplin
Quagsire
Torkoal (caught a shiny in the base game) or Salazzle
Bombirdier
???

Sinistcha/Dipplin and Quagsire are my only real locks tbh
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I'm hoping that Marshadow :marshadow: will make it in as a HOME transfer; otherwise I guess I'll use an Annihilape :annihilape:, nickname it Marshadow, and hope for better luck with part 2.

Other than that I'll try to stick to the regional dex. I'm leaning toward Gliscor :gliscor:, Trevenant :trevenant:, and Hisuian Arcanine :h-arcanine:. Hopefully H-Growlithe will just be catchable or a gift, but if I guess I'll swap one in from HOME once I catch a regular growlithe.

The last two slots will depend on types and availability. If we get Fezandipiti early enough, it might make the team. If Ogrepon's forms are all ghost I would consider water or rock, but I am doubtful we get Ogrepon until the end, so it might be an Indigo disk team member.

If one or both of those two don't work out, then I might go for Blood moon Ursa if it's normal/steel. Otherwise I might just go off-dex and use some paradoxes I didn't use on my postgame team, like Slither Wing :slither-wing: or Iron Treads :iron-treads:.

Or maybe I'll just use the best designed middle stage Pokemon, Poliwhirl. :Poliwhirl:
 
Didn't think about it but either keep my old in game team of Skeledirge, Arboliva, Palafin, Pawmot, Garganacl and Clodsire or try out some Pokemon I haven't tried yet. Tinkaton, BM Ursaluna and Mamoswine are the main locks.
 
MisogiKurakawa said:
The insanely huge movepools of many Gen 1 lines can be traced back to the very early development of RGB. As detailed here, the initial set of Pokemon designed for the game weren't made with types in mind, as that mechanic was only implemented later into development. Hence you have examples like Clefable being able to use Flamethrower and Ice Beam, that make seemingly zero sense from a worldbuilding POV, but are too widely accepted to really cut at this point. Giving them stuff like Stealth Rock just kinda continued where the originals left off.
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If the move in question was one of those elemental attacks that have rather wide distribution I would agree with this being the reason that they get Stealth Rock, but it's not; instead, it's a status move of a (formerly physical) type that none of the Gen 1 pink blobs are really known to use.

Clefable in particular has a strong association with space; the line is one of the few that gets Meteor Mash by level, and one of the only other Rock moves it gets is Meteor Beam (the other is Rollout, which has more to do with shape than type). Wigglytuff is more damning, as the only other Rock move the line gets is Rollout. Blissey does happen to get Rock Slide and Rock Tomb in addition to Rollout, but I personally chalk that up to the line's penchant for throwing hard, round objects. It didn't, in fact, get Rock Slide until Gen 4 (though it had Rock Tomb in Gen 3), so this was a conscious addition by Game Freak.

The choice to heavily reduce Toxic's distribution as a universal TM tells me that they are willing to cull moves from old Pokémon. I don't know if they'll ever do a full overhaul on Gen 1 TM weirdness but it's possible.
 
Pax_Unda said:
So now that the full dex has leaked, have those of you who plan to do a separate DLC team gotten anything locked down? I'm currently thinking about

Tinkaton (planning on using a Tinkatink as my "starter" depending on how scaling is done and how high the max level is)
Sinistcha or Dipplin
Quagsire
Torkoal (caught a shiny in the base game) or Salazzle
Bombirdier
???

Sinistcha/Dipplin and Quagsire are my only real locks tbh
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Gliscor, Munkidori, Dipplin and maybe Quagsire
 
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