I dunno, when using Ferrothorn in past gens I always wanted to run a bunch of its moves but had to pick and choose. I cannot imagine dropping Whirlwind on Ting-Lu even with access to Toxic.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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but seriously, if you want to run whirlwind and toxic at the same time, you could drop spikes and pair ting-lu up with one of the 10 trillion other spikes setters in the meta
All this toxic conversation and the leaks of it coming back made me write an opinion on the NJNP discord server, about it, so I'm just gonna copy and paste that into here
Anyway controversial opinion incoming: the overall widespread of toxic during so much time across all the gens stunted the player base ability of problem-solving, years before, you could just mindlessly throw the toxic and do it again with almost no consequence, now that you have to actually attack and use coverage people are crying because they can no longer throw literal shit to the opponent, because that's what you were doing, literally shitting your pants (multiple times across a match too by the way) and throwing that into your opponent. It was seeing on walls, then wall breakers, the sweepers even, fuck, toxic became in the eyes of many one of the best wall breakers in the game, and that is just not working for me brother, join me outside the Plato cave, no stall, no allergies or cold, just fun
I hope it's only gonna come back in a way like BDSP tbh
anyway give me reacts or whatever
Anyway controversial opinion incoming: the overall widespread of toxic during so much time across all the gens stunted the player base ability of problem-solving, years before, you could just mindlessly throw the toxic and do it again with almost no consequence, now that you have to actually attack and use coverage people are crying because they can no longer throw literal shit to the opponent, because that's what you were doing, literally shitting your pants (multiple times across a match too by the way) and throwing that into your opponent. It was seeing on walls, then wall breakers, the sweepers even, fuck, toxic became in the eyes of many one of the best wall breakers in the game, and that is just not working for me brother, join me outside the Plato cave, no stall, no allergies or cold, just fun
I hope it's only gonna come back in a way like BDSP tbh
anyway give me reacts or whatever
If we get knock off and defog back, there are a ton of mons that benefit hugely.
While knock off would definitely break gambit in a metagame with tera, if tera were to go it probably would be fine on gambit even if it would be obnoxious to be honest.
Pelliper getting defog back is pretty huge, as it gives it an option as a defogger on rain teams.
Zapdos getting defog obviously huge as its another fat breaker that can slot in defog easy
Tornadus-T definitely comes back to OU if it gets knock off and defog back like we think it might.
Landorus-T loves having knock and defog back as well for obvious reasons, and may end up taking tusk's #1 spot.
Clef loves options and knock off coming back is just another option for its vast array of tools.
Those are the big ones I can think of at the moment
While knock off would definitely break gambit in a metagame with tera, if tera were to go it probably would be fine on gambit even if it would be obnoxious to be honest.
Pelliper getting defog back is pretty huge, as it gives it an option as a defogger on rain teams.
Zapdos getting defog obviously huge as its another fat breaker that can slot in defog easy
Tornadus-T definitely comes back to OU if it gets knock off and defog back like we think it might.
Landorus-T loves having knock and defog back as well for obvious reasons, and may end up taking tusk's #1 spot.
Clef loves options and knock off coming back is just another option for its vast array of tools.
Those are the big ones I can think of at the moment
I was so sick of being toxic'd every single time I switched into a mon that wasn't immune. I feel like gen 8 was pretty toxic and I wouldn't like a repeat of last gen. I can accept toxic on some mons, but I swear if every single mon get's toxic I'm going to use only poisons, steels, garg, gliscor, and maybe poison heal breloom. Also, I'm gonna justify why heatran should have toxic. Heatran should get toxic because volcanoes spew smog and areas with volcanic activity can often be poisonous because of certain chemicals in the air. Heatran is literally supposed to be a volcano pokemon so it getting toxic isn't that crazy. Also tran should get poison coverage because it makes sense.
this will most likely be the case—it'll come back with a much more limited pool of mons that can learn it, hopefully including umbreon because the fucking pokedex says it can
the biggest skill in pokemon always has been and always will be playing around your endgame
toxic is just a way to do that. knock off is just a way to do that. hazards or defogging or spinning them is just a way to do that. you can find it annoying all you want but the game is just worse when it's about clicking attacks and pivoting rather than a nuanced game where you have to play around your opponent when they play for their endgame, and vice versa, and there are more options than just spikes + click attacks
ive been playing gen 6 ou lately a lot and frankly, its a lot more fun where im pivoting in to click wisp on the right pokemon, chipping down the easy switch ins to my status and forcing the opponent into unwinnable scenarios, especially without tera to give the opponent a get out of jail free card
and I'm not playing balance, I'm playing BO
toxic is just a way to do that. knock off is just a way to do that. hazards or defogging or spinning them is just a way to do that. you can find it annoying all you want but the game is just worse when it's about clicking attacks and pivoting rather than a nuanced game where you have to play around your opponent when they play for their endgame, and vice versa, and there are more options than just spikes + click attacks
ive been playing gen 6 ou lately a lot and frankly, its a lot more fun where im pivoting in to click wisp on the right pokemon, chipping down the easy switch ins to my status and forcing the opponent into unwinnable scenarios, especially without tera to give the opponent a get out of jail free card
and I'm not playing balance, I'm playing BO
I think it was mostly just grandfathered in. Gen 1 had all Pokemon that learned TMs able to learn it (I've seen people say the idea was Pokemon are toxic so don't eat them) and they just never questioned that and left it as is for over two decades.
The VGC formats. The regulation that allows the new DLC Pokemon starts in October and ends in November to presumably be replaced by a new ruleset allowing the DLC 2 Pokemon in come December. That doesn't for sure mean it will release November, they could just be allowing them in for December when it eventually releases that month, but it would be slightly weird for a rule set to allow something that isn't even usable in it until some time into that first month.
The fact that it's also the only Poison move it can learn is funny, like at this point if it doesn't get Toxic it's gonna get it by playing the ladder
we really shouldn't be worrying about what coverage tran gets, it's never going to run it over what it has now anyway
iirc Cinderace in Gen 8 Ubers had also this problem, even if Libero and the moveset it had made it go in that tier, it had various difficulties since even for the all the mons there were it could have the moves for attack them, but could only bring 4 moves, so it was like playing a Russian Roulette hoping that your opponent had the mons that your moves can damge them
The Toxic nerf was the best QoL change I've seen in mons in a long time. Same with limiting Knock Off and recovery moves. This gen actually has a lot going for it mechanically. GF is legit shitting the bed if everything gets Toxic again.
Another huge misstep would be to give that asshole Rilla Glide again. There are some mons I would like to see get their moves back, but overall the movepools feel a lot better. I wouldn't trade Lando getting Rock Polish back for a fuckin' Scald Toxic metagame.
There's a really great meta underneath some bullshit that we can fix over time, but it's Joever af if Scald and Toxic come back bro.
I'm saying this to everyone
If scald and toxic return in a mass quantity, I'm going to write an essay on why the metagame is so bad. Remember -- we don't control game freak's decisions, but we control how we use it. That's how it's always been. It won't end up in a balanced metagame regardless
If scald and toxic return in a mass quantity, I'm going to write an essay on why the metagame is so bad. Remember -- we don't control game freak's decisions, but we control how we use it. That's how it's always been. It won't end up in a balanced metagame regardless
I agree that stall is boring asf as a playstyle and one of the most “try-hard” things ever, but it’s one of my favourite playstyles to play against just to see the stall user get swept by [insert wallbreaker or sweeper that hard-checks 4/6 or 5/6 of their Pokémon here] anyways, no matter how many turns it takes. Still really hate Scald though, that can stay a Volcanion exclusive.
The Stallkiller I used before I "quit OU" was Iron Valiant with that Thunderbolt bonk. Generally you want Close Combat, an Electric type move, something for Clodsire and whatever else you may use to just crush stall. Tried out Iron Hands but gave up after I didn't find any stall teams. Preferably, you want a physical Fighting move to KO Blissey, a physical attack for Clodsire, and Thunderbolt for Talonflame, Alomomola, and Dondozo. Well... at least I think those are the mons used on stall now. Even if they're not, Fighting + Electric is amazing coverage into stall
I noticed King Gambit and Great Tusk have around 48% usage in high ladder last month.
Suppose there were 6 Pokémon with high usage like Lando-T has in gens 6, 7, and 8. (as much as 70% at one point in USUM). They are not broken or overwhelming, just very good. For the sake of argument, suppose they have great synergy together, and you see all 6 on the same team as much as 20% of the time. Would you want to not ban any of them for the same reasons you wouldn’t ban lando-t? Or would you want to ban one or all of them due to staleness reasons?
Suppose there were 6 Pokémon with high usage like Lando-T has in gens 6, 7, and 8. (as much as 70% at one point in USUM). They are not broken or overwhelming, just very good. For the sake of argument, suppose they have great synergy together, and you see all 6 on the same team as much as 20% of the time. Would you want to not ban any of them for the same reasons you wouldn’t ban lando-t? Or would you want to ban one or all of them due to staleness reasons?
Theres a big difference between a centerpiece like lando t, which glues the tier together and enables various team styles and pokemon vs your proposal imo, which seems to be overcentralization of a few good mons which are so good you cant run any other team comp. I like to call it gacha game syndrome because 95% of gacha competitive sides have it so theres only 1 type of team worth running.
If theres 6 mons that take over the tier AND team composition together, there's absolutely something wrong with the tier, and there should be bans done
huh?
I don't rly see where recovery moves were limited in a way that affects the meta greatly except for roost on scizor/mew and pain split on rotom which most likely wouldn't have changed the meta that much anyway.
Assuming you mean reducing the pp of some recovery moves which is obv. an amazing change since we all hate playing a boring balanced meta and would much rather play a cheese/ho only meta. Me personally i hope we ban haze/whirlwind/defog/court change/toxic next to make another great step into the direction of an ideal meta.
Not my GF but you do you buddy.
Ofc. introducing a revenge killer against our beloved cheese teams would be the definition of a huge misstep. Nothing feels worse than clicking dd turn one and not even winning instantly. Also making another physical grass type viable could mess with our beloved tera water cm hatterene/enamorus so we would need to actually think when playing screens. Isn't that just the worst?
Yes scale shot garchomp for example we should also start giving random mons geomancy since a lot of the games have reached double digit turn count lately which is just a massive time waste.
Me neither but if it was dd + thousand arrows we could maybe talk about giving scald or toxic to some zu mons so that the balance tryhards don't complain.
I agree.
They are actually great.
I hate you for showing me this and i hope you get trapped in an elevator with a monotype otto explaining you why it should get added to scl.
Just close this you don't need to read everything that gets posted here.
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Can all 6 mons have the behavior Lando-t has? They’re not overwhelming and don’t force things, just high usage
As in, 6 glue mons? I guess they could, but at that point I think its hard to theorize what would happen to the tier, because then youd have to see which ones would take the role of offense, utility, tank, wall etc. A meta that only has one team comp viable because all mons are so flexible they could do anything would still be overcentralization, and definitely targeted, but which ones would I can't say unless you theorize stats, movepool etc
I think at least knock off and defog gets fully distributed again because they are definitely necessary in a meta like this where Gholdengo and fat unaware mons everywhere
Not one team comp viable, but common, just as Lando-t is common but other ground and flying types are viable
I feel like thats extremely hard to judge without actual examples tbh. someone else may know but I feel like thats just not how the tiers tend to balance themselves
I guess instead of 2 mons like Great Tusk and King Gambit, 6 mons, but they’re more like Great Tusk in terms of brokenness
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