It's a nice thought, with Sucker Punch being one of the very few pult checks out there. Unfortunately, Bisharp needs to set up with SD before it can even deal damage, and in the face of a Dragapult that could kill most things with a single sneeze, that's very dangerous.
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
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It's meh as a pult check in general: it dislikes spikes/wisp, which makes it quite unreliable at pursuit trapping it even if you get the correct positioning (which is also easier said than done). I still do think it has some good traits besides that, like its matchup against ghold as well as the sucker/knock/pursuit toolkit, on top of defiant which can punish some teams that rely a bit too much on defensive lando to pivot on physical threats, and also stick web - however I don't think it should be your only way to deal with pult, which is something sad considering how specific the mon probably is already
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Adding into what R8 said, the lack of a damage boosting item also limits Bisharp in threat potential, and OU being full of powerful fighting types kinda sucks for it too. The lack of immediate threat makes it easier to pivot around, and stuff like hisui sam exist that can come in to get free spikes as its forced out too.
I'm in agreement that it does have some interesting applications, meaning it isn't horrible, but I'd also sooner just use Weavile or MegaTtar for pursuit most of the time.
Eviolite bisharp does not supply reliable enough bulk to sacrifice an item slot better utilized via other items, bisharp does has 100 base defense but that only serves as a check on the physical side of which the main phys attacks hitting it are gonna be 4x effective fighting type and it's base 70 spd being buffed is helpful although not a must.
Bisharp doesn't serve that well as a natural Dragapult counter because it's not meant to be one.
Sash sneaseler is not a real set; you're gonna be outspeeding anything you need to after unburden anyways and if you kill them first, they can't kill you.
Bisharp doesn't serve that well as a natural Dragapult counter because it's not meant to be one.
Sash sneaseler is not a real set; you're gonna be outspeeding anything you need to after unburden anyways and if you kill them first, they can't kill you.
we all know that bisharp is a joke. It can be beaten or at least severely damaged by several pult sets, which is what it is supposed to beat. Also, it's not great that bish has no recovery whatsoever, not even lefties because eviolite is a better item overall, even though it leaves recovery out of the question.
+3 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bisharp: 225-264 (83 - 97.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 220-260 (81.1 - 95.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Bisharp Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 180-212 (56.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp on a critical hit: 330-390 (121.7 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult on a critical hit: 270-318 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
You let Pult get to +3 you would have deserved that loss. Your calcs don’t mean shit.
Respect unaware Clefable.
On a serious note, that pursuit calc means that Dragapult cannot switch out without fearing pursuit if it is choice locked into a non-fire type move while dragon dance sets are unable to touch it anyways unless it accumulates a ridiculous amount of boosts. The only set that Bisharp fears is the utility wisp set, which was what R8 touched on (and I agree that it is concerning for such a specific Pokemon to lose to one of the three sets it is supposed to check).
I know it's a different metagame, but now that Roaring Moon is UU, seeing it still banned in Nat Dex seems more and more embarrassing to me
And lets not forget Ursaluna too! the one they quickbanned w 0 community input LMAO
Bisharp is a fine pult counter, but it feels like you'd almost always wanna run val or just a diff pursuit user. It's not the most valuable outside of beating pult, if ghold didn't exist I'd probably be more of a fan since it'd actually have traits you want(defog punishing). Ofc, it does remove pult if it's not locked into a fire move, which is very nice, I think its good at countering pult, but only post choice lock into one of it's stabs. If pult u-turns you take a good chunk of chip and lose a bunch of momentum, and flamethrower can just outright OHKO. Specifcally as a pult counter it's good, but as a pokemon it's underwhelming imo since you don't get much from it you're not very powerful and not super bulky.
Also is it just me or is hamurrott getting used alot more than last month. I've seen it four matches back to back now.
Also is it just me or is hamurrott getting used alot more than last month. I've seen it four matches back to back now.
s/v ndou is a very different format from s/v ou, while yeah its ban was definitely rushed and a little overblown w/ hindsight it still has significantly more support options in ndou especially when compared to s/v ou. Tapu koko as a whole is a massive boon for ho teams and since s/v ou doesnt have it moon lacks support for letting it set up, it'd definitely be significantly better in s/v ou which is why in general I'm not a fan of basing opinions on one metagame from experience in another, since if it really was that simple nd ou as a tier just would not exist period
Moon was literally banned based on a wrong assumption that Booster Energy gave 1.5 boost. It was panick induced and a mistake. The bigger mistake is keeping it banned because it wouldn't be NDOU by usage if it was allowed. Moon has a ton of flaws and many competitors who are better in its niche. Forget about ban, it most likely wouldn't get ever a suspect test if it was legal, and much more likely to be UU
Luna is more understandable since Natdex as better TR setters and TR mons. Still deserved suspect test.
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Although I definitely agree with others that Moon(and luna) should be tested I think this is very much true. Moon was banned in the era of a stupid HO supports like Cyclizar and Deo-S and also 1.5x booster. Should it be retested? Of course, but I don't think it's a pressing issue especially with an entire suspect test going on right now.
After looking at the viability rankings of the ND ubers metagame, Darkrai is arguably the worst uber tiered pokemon, it rarely sees any legitimate usage mainly because there are just better special attackers (Calyrex-Shadow for example) or even mixed attackers like yveltal outperform it. It doesn’t even have a niche anymore as dark void, its signature move, has been rendered useless (seriously, hypnosis is better). Yes, it is a very strong attacker in its own right, quite similar to flutter mane except dark typing which also got banned from standard play, however pure dark is easier to switch in on, its coverage is decent (sludge wave, thunderbolt and ice beam) but its not like we dont have switch ins for special attackers, things like clodsire can wall it for pretty much as long as it wants, as well as fairy types being a good switch in. I understand that it may sound silly to allow Darkrai in standard play, but I don’t see an issue with allowing it in OU nat dex for a small bit and see where it ends up. I mean the SnV metagame allowed zamazenta crowned and chien-pao in for a small while so its not like we cant allow it for a bit?
It is not because a pokemon is bad in Ubers that it would be balanced in OU. If it was released in OU, it would probably not run Dark Void, and fit coverage instead.
Aside from Clodsire (which is not that great of a pokemon in general against the rest of the metagame anyway imo - and if it becomes popular enough Darkrai could still smack it with Psychic), there is nothing that can safely defensively answer Darkrai: a set consisting of Nasty Plot + Dark Pulse + Sludge Bomb + Focus Blast smacks pretty much everything else, including fairies. Specs would probably work too, and aside from its perfect coverage it still has access to a wide array of moves (Trick, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off, T-Wave) it can toy with to get around its counterplay.
Honestly if we really wanted to take a look at Darkrai, right now would probably not be the moment: the metagame isn't in a great state, and we should focus on getting rid of the stupid stuff first before looking into potential unbans. This is also why the council did not free Roaring Moon and Ursaluna yet: I think most people agree that these Pokemon have very good odds to be fine in the metagame, but adding them now might make the metagme worse (as preparing for the metagame without relying on the same cores again and again is already really difficult), which defeats the purpose of tiering.
So how is the moveset situation being handled? Pokémon like Bisharp and Landorus are unable to learn Knock Off and Gliscor being unable to learn Roost in the new DLC, so are the current move pool exclusions going to be ignored similarly to Hidden Power not being erased, or limited?
Personally, I think the movepools should stay as are, and only be added to, as the metagame was created as an answer to Dexit, and Movexit is essentially in the same boat.
Also, Gamefreak gaslighting players into believing Bisharp didn't learn Knock Off for 4 Gens is pretty similar to the current situation with every mon who learns Toxic, which is kept in their movepools for the tier. So it'd be weird to (retroactively) say something like Kingambit can't learn Knock Off when it would've been able to if Game Freak kept the same form of rules that the tier was based on.
Personally, I think the movepools should stay as are, and only be added to, as the metagame was created as an answer to Dexit, and Movexit is essentially in the same boat.
Also, Gamefreak gaslighting players into believing Bisharp didn't learn Knock Off for 4 Gens is pretty similar to the current situation with every mon who learns Toxic, which is kept in their movepools for the tier. So it'd be weird to (retroactively) say something like Kingambit can't learn Knock Off when it would've been able to if Game Freak kept the same form of rules that the tier was based on.
Yes, bisharp and kingambit will still have knock off in nd. All the moveset changes besides additions to movesets(like spikes on gliscor for example) don't happen in nd. It'll only effect sv ou. Hope I explained it well enough
This is what will happen.
Also stealing TPP's epic post from the SVOU post, to get your opinions:
Some fun questions to get us started off. Also while we're at it, try to stay on track and avoid too many 1-liners and such. If you plan on memeing, I expect only the highest quality of memes from you all. Have a fun one
1. What are you excited for most? What do you think about the new Pokemon?
2. What are your expectations regarding hyper offense?
3. What are your expectations regarding bulky offense?
4. What are your expectations regarding balance?
5. What are your expectations regarding fat/stall?
6. What former OU mon(s) are you expecting to plummet to UU or below?
7. Which mon(s) if any do you believe will get banned by the end of the month?
8. Is Knock Off enough to save (Mega-)Tyranitar from falling to UU?
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1. SCALE SHOT BAX BABY
2. I don’t think it changes much but fire type Ogerpon seems legit. Good coverage and mold breaker + burn immunity is excellent for this mon
3. Will have to see how the new toxic chain mons pan out. Flip turn roost Empo seems like a viable defensive pivot not just new toy syndrome. Torterra supporters stay coping though. Blood moon Luna should be good too since it actually got moonlight for recovery
4. Balance got a few things like empo, buffed Ttar, and spikes/tspikes gliscor. Ttar is gonna be the most impactful here
5. Stall didn’t get shit and has Skarm and pex as better spikers than gliscor. A net loss probably with more threats to account for defensively
6. At least one of the toxic chain mons is not gonna stay ou but idk which ones are bad yet. My guess would be the bird. Sinistcha and the non-fire ogerpon forms are probably garbage and leaving ou soon. Non-dlc mons shouldn’t move much but Ting Lu is being propped up by pult rn. Corv continues to be very bad but I think too many people like using it for it to drop
7. None of the new mons seem broken at all tbh but it’s early
8. Yes and I swear this isn’t cope. Knock Ttar is awesome and you should be using it
first and foremost im writing this after dlc went live so ill respond with both perspectives :7
1. I was most excited for Tyranitar but after playing I really enjoy using flip turn mola! The new Pokémon are ugly and garbage.
2. Offense seems very dominant in SVOU with weather offense, veil teams in particular, however I don’t see the same thing happening in ND. HO is still one of the best play styles here and the most common.
3. Bulky Offense is interesting. Honestly all play styles have benefited from dlc, but with the addition to flip turn mola there seems to be a lot of potential for this archetype. Mola looks like it will be a staple because of how much it can enable by safely bringing in teammates!
4. Balance is the most underwhelming in my opinion but perhaps it’ll be more successful after some bans! I think the biggest reason is how difficult it is to clear hazards and team building feels restricted. I also think it is easily overwhelmed.
5. I don’t know yet. We shall see once the meta settles.
6. I think Rillabum will drop to uu!
7. Hopefully pult! Bax, dengo are on my wishlist
8. Knock off is bringing back both Tyranitars. Let the haters hate but TyraniGOAT is back
I made an Ursa-Blood Moon spread I'd like to share bc its very consistent
Ursaluna-Blood-Moon @ leftovers
148hp/ 20 def / 252 spA / 88 SpD
Ability: Mind's eye
Modest nature
Tera Type: Poison
IVs: 0 attack
- Blood Moon
- Earth Power
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind
Lives Tusk&Mlop cc from full, favored to live if rocks are up. 148 hp ensures that chansey and blissey can't break you(6hko after lefties) and 88 spD is 3hko'd by val aura sphere after a cm
2. It got so much stuff, Fire ogerpon is a good SD mon, luna behind screens takes 2-3 tusk cc to drop, scale shot bax obv.
3. Bulky offense got empo and luna and I suppose flip mola helps
4. Balance got mola to keep itself healthy, suppose empo is cool too
5. It got worse, a special attacker thats only walled by physical walls and a grass type with mold breaker are p bad for it.
6. Rillaboom was uu early on this gen, I assume its going to have a relapse
7. Pult(hopefully), bax, dengo.
8. maybe? knock is huge for it, now it threatens tusk swaps with losing boots/lefties/AV(if they're weird)
Ursaluna-Blood-Moon @ leftovers
148hp/ 20 def / 252 spA / 88 SpD
Ability: Mind's eye
Modest nature
Tera Type: Poison
IVs: 0 attack
- Blood Moon
- Earth Power
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind
Lives Tusk&Mlop cc from full, favored to live if rocks are up. 148 hp ensures that chansey and blissey can't break you(6hko after lefties) and 88 spD is 3hko'd by val aura sphere after a cm
The Grass one is really Cool with a CB, does 40-50 to volc with wood hammer. You should try it its v fun
1. The new luna and scale shot bax are awesome
2. It got so much stuff, Fire ogerpon is a good SD mon, luna behind screens takes 2-3 tusk cc to drop, scale shot bax obv.
3. Bulky offense got empo and luna and I suppose flip mola helps
4. Balance got mola to keep itself healthy, suppose empo is cool too
5. It got worse, a special attacker thats only walled by physical walls and a grass type with mold breaker are p bad for it.
6. Rillaboom was uu early on this gen, I assume its going to have a relapse
7. Pult(hopefully), bax, dengo.
8. maybe? knock is huge for it, now it threatens tusk swaps with losing boots/lefties/AV(if they're weird)
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Lugia and Darkrai are the worst Ubers right now, letting them in is 100% a mistake in a tera meta where the power level of everything is inflated
- Haven't tried it out but on paper munkidori seems like an interesting pick. It faces competition with Tapu Lele and is checked by Gholdengo, but it differentiates itself with a better speed tier, U-turn, and Toxic Chain. The poison typing likely won't be doing it too many favors but Venoshock could potentially be an option since it goes well with Toxic Chain, but we'll have to see what happens. It gains parting shot but likely won't see much use as it doesn't help with gholdengo.
- guard dog okidogi is not it, I prefer having Toxic Chain. Sneasler is still better in every way.
- fezandipiti is one of the most bizarre pokemon I have ever seen. It has very well rounded stats and a great ability but base 90 attack isn't cutting it. Poison Fairy is also not very good and it has no coverage whatsoever to hit the common steels in the tier. This pokemon will not be good, it has appeal as a status spreading pivot but sneasler can do that while being offensively threatening.
- alomomola with flip turn is going to go crazy, useful for stall obviously but not it can pass wishes to pokemon such as heatran, tinglu so I think this team support can let alomomola see use on bulky offense and balance as well. Definitely great, could compete with toxapex.
- ogerpon rock is bad, does not have the ability to hold an item, only has base 120 attack, gains a not very useful ability when it teras, Grass- rock is an interesting type combo because it has ivy cudgel for common grass resists like torn and dnite however it is not strong enough and there are better SD users. I think it could shine as a suicide lead, with Spikes, sturdy, and a fast taunt as well as a positive matchup into defoggers.
- ogerpon water has an interesting type combo and water absorb however it falls short in other aspects and is definitely not seeing any viable usage. It doesn't even have the sturdy spikes thing going for it. Bulk Up + horn leech sets could work in lower tiers.
- ogerpon fire has some potential, it has a Stealth Rock weakness but has a solid ability for a SD user in unaware letting it bypass rare unaware mons. The real kicker is having Gen 8 intrepid sword if it terastalizes fire, making it a strong terastalizer. It's definitely a flawed pokemon, with the opportunity cost, aforementioned Stealth Rock weakness, unavailable item slot and inability to bypass all of its checks (Knock vs stomping tantrum is a tough choice) but I assume it will have some niche use.
- the teal mask ogerpon is where it gets interesting, because I think it will have a lot of set variety. She has a free item slot, useful nin Tera ability in Defiant, and strong, spammable STAB pre Tera in wood Hammer/ ivy cudgel. With the Tera form giving it a +1 Speed Boost every time it comes in it could be interesting as a threatening Choice Bander with decent coverage in Knock Off, superpower, play rough to threaten Grass resists, or a Swords Dance sweeper. Likely will not be a tier staple but it most likely will have a strong niche, I think it will have the most metagame impact.
- ursaluna blood moon is going to be a scary wallbreaker, I think it could have a lot of variety with its item and moves. Blood moon and earth Power will always be present, but then it has moonlight, Calm Mind, vacuum wave, hyper voice, and Tera Blast. It could probably viable run silk scarf, lefties, lo maybe even specs or av.
- guard dog okidogi is not it, I prefer having Toxic Chain. Sneasler is still better in every way.
- fezandipiti is one of the most bizarre pokemon I have ever seen. It has very well rounded stats and a great ability but base 90 attack isn't cutting it. Poison Fairy is also not very good and it has no coverage whatsoever to hit the common steels in the tier. This pokemon will not be good, it has appeal as a status spreading pivot but sneasler can do that while being offensively threatening.
- alomomola with flip turn is going to go crazy, useful for stall obviously but not it can pass wishes to pokemon such as heatran, tinglu so I think this team support can let alomomola see use on bulky offense and balance as well. Definitely great, could compete with toxapex.
- ogerpon rock is bad, does not have the ability to hold an item, only has base 120 attack, gains a not very useful ability when it teras, Grass- rock is an interesting type combo because it has ivy cudgel for common grass resists like torn and dnite however it is not strong enough and there are better SD users. I think it could shine as a suicide lead, with Spikes, sturdy, and a fast taunt as well as a positive matchup into defoggers.
- ogerpon water has an interesting type combo and water absorb however it falls short in other aspects and is definitely not seeing any viable usage. It doesn't even have the sturdy spikes thing going for it. Bulk Up + horn leech sets could work in lower tiers.
- ogerpon fire has some potential, it has a Stealth Rock weakness but has a solid ability for a SD user in unaware letting it bypass rare unaware mons. The real kicker is having Gen 8 intrepid sword if it terastalizes fire, making it a strong terastalizer. It's definitely a flawed pokemon, with the opportunity cost, aforementioned Stealth Rock weakness, unavailable item slot and inability to bypass all of its checks (Knock vs stomping tantrum is a tough choice) but I assume it will have some niche use.
- the teal mask ogerpon is where it gets interesting, because I think it will have a lot of set variety. She has a free item slot, useful nin Tera ability in Defiant, and strong, spammable STAB pre Tera in wood Hammer/ ivy cudgel. With the Tera form giving it a +1 Speed Boost every time it comes in it could be interesting as a threatening Choice Bander with decent coverage in Knock Off, superpower, play rough to threaten Grass resists, or a Swords Dance sweeper. Likely will not be a tier staple but it most likely will have a strong niche, I think it will have the most metagame impact.
- ursaluna blood moon is going to be a scary wallbreaker, I think it could have a lot of variety with its item and moves. Blood moon and earth Power will always be present, but then it has moonlight, Calm Mind, vacuum wave, hyper voice, and Tera Blast. It could probably viable run silk scarf, lefties, lo maybe even specs or av.
Hear me out, Dogi can be a bulky attacker on Bulky Offense teams or on Balance, sneasler doesn't have the longterm bulk to do that. Also sneasler doesn't have knock off which is a huge differentiating factor.
Granted it probably works better in sv OU, since that meta isn't powercrept to the moon like this one is