Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

ladder seems pretty fun and more or less active so thats good ig

of course everything as of right now is probably an overreaction either way, mostly overhyping a mon though.

If i had to pick id say that probably lax is the most broken among the new additions, though that might aswell just be bias from other gens

Darkrai seems kind of lackluster to me, though i havent used it myself, just battled against it

kommo-o is so fucking back and body press still farms a lot of random games

ogerpon seems really good though id say that its definitely easier to plan against it once we had like a week of this new leech-stall-speed benchmark

ursaluna-bloodmon doesnt seem that interesting, it defo seems inferior to its normal version

poison things seem good while building but i almost never clicked it. toxic chain can basically win any mu though so will be interesting to monitor

sinistcha seems kinda broken, but im pretty sure that its just at first glance this first day, gotta get used to another strength sap abuser

manaphy doesnt seem as overwhelming as ive thought so it might actually be here to stay, though once custap rolls around that might change

ninetales straight sucks

chomp is chomp


well just try it yourself ig
 
:ninetales-alola:
- good, snow is rly cool for it mechanically and I like using it
:snorlax:
- not trying super hard on building sets until custap drops but is going to be a demon, has everything going for it still
:darkrai:
- pretty strong, want to see this with custap released and more people using it uniquely instead of random specs, but it's only day 2 so can't ask for a ton of optimization already lmfao
Ogerpon
- rock is definitely the best one, with fire close behind it. I think it's got an amazing niche and it's definitely one of the mons people have been discussing the most
Poison trio
-only used fez at the time of writing this post but it's alright, I feel like they're all decent until proven otherwise. Toxic chain is funny but not that great most of the time
:baxcalibur: :regidrago: :garchomp:
SCALE SHOT HYPE!!!! once meta settles all of these guys will be returned to their former glory thankfully
:ursaluna:
Blood moon is kinda underwhelming outside of chople imo. Really specially frail and doesn't get a ton of mileage out of it's strong STAB and coverage that you think it would. Chople is rly good though, hope this gets better over time.
:manaphy:
- once dust settles and we get The Berry I think this is gonna be insanely good. Only got buffed with new signature cm + refresh all in one moveslot and random Hydro pump???? I'm glad this tier finally has a good water to use.

Ladder had been insanely fun so far so I recommend anyone reading to post to just throw some mons together and hop on!! use your favorites soon before they disappear forever >:))
 
clerica said:
gm DLC time I'm not going to make a whole thread for this but here's some info

New Mons!
Following a council vote everything returning will be legal EXCEPT
Jirachi :jirachi:
Shaymin Sky :shaymin sky:

Legal mons:
- #023: Ekans
- #024: Arbok
- #027: Sandshrew
- #028: Sandslash
- #035: Clefairy
- #036: Clefable
- #037: Vulpix
- #038: Ninetales
- #060: Poliwag
- #061: Poliwhirl
- #062: Poliwrath
- #069: Bellsprout
- #070: Weepinbell
- #071: Victreebel
- #074: Geodude
- #075: Graveler
- #076: Golem
- #109: Koffing
- #110: Weezing
- #143: Snorlax
- #161: Sentret
- #162: Furret
- #163: Hoothoot
- #164: Noctowl
- #167: Spinarak
- #168: Ariados
- #173: Cleffa
- #186: Politoed
- #190: Aipom
- #193: Yanma
- #207: Gligar
- #218: Slugma
- #219: Magcargo
- #220: Swinub
- #221: Piloswine
- #261: Poochyena
- #262: Mightyena
- #270: Lotad
- #271: Lombre
- #272: Ludicolo
- #273: Seedot
- #274: Nuzleaf
- #275: Shiftry
- #299: Nosepass
- #313: Volbeat
- #314: Illumise
- #341: Corphish
- #342: Crawdaunt
- #349: Feebas
- #350: Milotic
- #355: Duskull
- #356: Dusclops
- #358: Chimecho
- #385: Jirachi
- #387: Turtwig
- #388: Grotle
- #389: Torterra
- #390: Chimchar
- #391: Monferno
- #392: Infernape
- #393: Piplup
- #394: Prinplup
- #395: Empoleon
- #424: Ambipom
- #433: Chingling
- #446: Munchlax
- #469: Yanmega
- #472: Gliscor
- #473: Mamoswine
- #476: Probopass
- #477: Dusknoir
- #489: Phione
- #490: Manaphy
- #491: Darkrai
- #492: Shaymin
- #532: Timburr
- #533: Gurdurr
- #534: Conkeldurr
- #540: Sewaddle
- #541: Swadloon
- #542: Leavanny
- #580: Ducklett
- #581: Swanna
- #607: Litwick
- #608: Lampent
- #609: Chandelure
- #619: Mienfoo
- #620: Mienshao
- #629: Vullaby
- #630: Mandibuzz
- #708: Phantump
- #709: Trevenant
- #736: Grubbin
- #737: Charjabug
- #738: Vikavolt
- #742: Cutiefly
- #743: Ribombee
- #782: Jangmo-o
- #783: Hakamo-o
- #784: Kommo-o
- #845: Cramorant
- #877: Morpeko
Notables:
:clefable: Clefable
:ninetales: Ninetales
:ninetales alola: Ninetales Alola
:golem: Golem
:weezing Galar: Weezing Galar
:snorlax: Snorlax
:ambipom: Ambipom
:mamoswine: Mamoswine
:manaphy: Manaphy
:darkrai: Darkrai
:shaymin: Shaymin
:conkeldurr: Conkeldurr
:Chandelure: Chandelure
:Kommo-o: Kommo-o
:torterra: Torterra
:empoleon: Empoleon
Ogerpon
Ogerpon Fire
Ogerpon Water
Ogerpon Rock
Ursaluna Blood Moon
Okidogi
Munkidori
Fenzandipiti
Sinistcha

Full info about everything with movesets and stats can be found here

New Movesets!
A whole bunch of new TMs got added so check those out here

---------
Anyways what mons are you all excited for? What mons should we look out for? What mons do you think might go overlooked? For me I'm most excited for Manaphy and Alolatales. Darkrai and Snorlax jump out as early contenders for initial issues but they're worth a shot in my opinion and we'll see where they go. Despite being brand new I expect the ogerpon guys to be overlooked for a while because they look difficult to use

That's all I have time for. Have fun with the new meta! Let us know your early thoughts wooo
Click to expand...
You list kantoian Ninetales as notable but not my boy? What the hell man
 
new sneasler counter just dropped

anti-sneasler (Okidogi) (M) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Close Combat
- Psychic Fangs
- Poison Jab

resists both of Sneasler's stabs, can't risk sleep with dire claw since Psychic Fangs is a guaranteed OHKO, and protect blocks fake out, meaning acrobatics sets can't kill it. Item/EVS don't really matter from what I can see, but mental herb seems useful, but life orb is also an option.
As a sneasler counter, you want bulk to tank unboosted acrobatics (even with crits), but for general use, speed investment might be viable. unfortunately, Okidogi is not in the calcdex yet, but 55 bp acrobatics does around 35-40% with bulk investment.
Might also work against Valiant with HP investment to live Moonblasts, but I haven't tried that yet.
also Guard Dog helps it beat intimidate users. not super relevant but seems more useful can toxic chain imo, unless you're fighting a defenseive mon. personal preference ig

should also mention - works decently well with Goodra-H/Physical tank (Avalugg, Dozo, Donphan). haven't really tested team comp, but from what I've tested with this team comp so far, it's not too bad.
 
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All of the new Pokémon will create fearmongering like usual, the ladder is fun and I don't believe any of the new Pokémon are bannable. This doesn't mean any of them are bad however, these are my thoughts on what I'd consider the "Big Five" of the DLC.

1694790237983.png
This Pokémon is great, using Cornerstone mask feels more like being able to equip a Focus Sash than being forced to use an item to change your form. At the start I thought this was a one trick pony with Leech Seed sets and yet it is far from it, Rock and Grass are two mediocre typings by themselves but paired together makes a surprisingly effective offensive and defensive partnership. Back onto the topic of sets, I primarily enjoy running ones with Counter.

Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip
- Ivy Cudgel
- Spiky Shield / Taunt / Encore
- Counter

This is a set you can't go wrong with, Spiky Shield is a nice option for Sneasler if you want to bait it in or if your team is otherwise 3-0ed by it.

:darkrai:
I expected this thing to terrorise the tier and yet it feels balanced. Similar to Spectrier, it has large and well distributed stats and a useless ability which helps balance it. Differing to Spectrier however, it possesses great coverage and can seem threatening at first yet from my experience it suffers a lot from only being able to run one set and having limited moveslot options. A metagame with many Fightings and Fairies doesn't help it much and Choice Specs doesn't do as much damage as you might think.

Darkrai @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind / Endure
- Will-O-Wisp
- Dark Pulse
- Hyper Beam / Psychic / Sludge Bomb

As of now, I've been enjoying this set which isn't perfect but is built to survive and beat Urshifu. Endure in combination with Sludge Bomb can allow you to beat particular Fairy-types, though I haven't tested it with this set I believe you'd probably need some Special Attack investment and Psychic is your way of beating Annihilape.

:snorlax:
From my experience, it feels like this thing is underwhelming for now and can only really run a predictable Choice Band set. In SS however, the same thing with Snorlax being balanced before Custap Berry was true so the release of that could make my thoughts on this Pokémon differ heavily. Despite what I said, Snorlax is still a very potent Pokémon and is one that I think is underused.

Snorlax @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Giga Impact
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Counter

Something like this for now seems solid.

:manaphy:
Incredibly versatile and will be bolstered by the release of Custap Berry, unlike Snorlax who seems to completely rely on the item Manaphy is potent with its Choice Specs and Stall sets with an occasional Tail Glow build to make a splash in the metagame. Its new signature move is just Calm Mind with less PP except it cures its status, seeming useless to me but a unique addition no less. I have no set for this one to particularly show, but I have one thing to say. Please stop using Hydro Pump over Surf/Scald. Thank you.

1694791035600.png
This seems like it'll be the biggest shakeup to the tier since the DLC's release, improving the power of many Pokémon and being a vital piece to some's main set. Some particularly potent abusers of Custap include but aren't limited to: Bellibolt, Skeledirge, Snorlax, Iron Hands, Manaphy, Darkrai, Magnezone and many more. I could see Custap Berry being banned this generation, with people becoming exhausted of Custap Berry 50/50s and new abusers could make people consider a suspect at the least.
 
SwordIsBored said:
From my experience, it feels like this thing is underwhelming for now and can only really run a predictable Choice Band set. In SS however, the same thing with Snorlax being balanced before Custap Berry was true so the release of that could make my thoughts on this Pokémon differ heavily. Despite what I said, Snorlax is still a very potent Pokémon and is one that I think is underused.

Snorlax @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Giga Impact
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Counter

Something like this for now seems solid.
Click to expand...

Chople Berry could also be an option, I ran into someone on ladder using Chople Lax and got my shit rocked. I imagine the set was max Atk and HP, with Giga Impact, Heat Crash, Heavy Slam, and Body Slam (or some kind of utility move like Curse). Idk though, since I got OHKO'd by Giga Impact >-> Although I do agree, even using Chople over Band it's still predictable, although perhaps less so.
 
Ninetales-A - Good mon, snow giving a defense boost is big for it and encore disable is encore disable

Sinistcha - I love this mon, strength sap abuser that can eat hits, matcha gotcha is cool sig (it misses everytime to)

Darkrai - Strong mon and doesn't feel too broken atm (super strong tho) but haven't seen it with custap yet since laptop just started working again

Poison trio - Fez has inconsistencies, okidogi is fun but not anything crazy, munkidori havent used but havent seen it do anything, toxic chain is cool

Ogerpon - Rock form is rlly good, seen mostly leech sets but it has the capabilities to use offensive sets also

Garchomp, Bax, Drago - Scale Shot

Snorlax - Haven't used but custap is back so probably broken

Manaphy - This guy has every set in existence, good mon

Bloodmoon - Gamefreak gave it 5 extra base points and arguably a worse stat distribution, not a bad mon by any means but feels kinda middling to me atm
 
Some brief thoughts on Ogerpon-C and Snorlax:

Ogerpon-C: I think its to early to say its impact on the meta, but it does seem to be warping the Meta, I've seen a rise in Scizor and Mold Breaker Haxorus just to counter it, and even techs like Scarf Baxcalibur with Icicle Spear and Custap Endure Magnezone.

Snorlax: Think its a bit too early again, but Belly Drum Custap is the most popular on ladder- haven't seen band at all really, and PP stall sets have likely fallen out of favor thanks to the nerf to rest.

On a similar note, loving Haxorus right now thanks to good matchups against Ogerpon and Snorlax.
 
Since the Custap Craze™ seems to be at its peak with belly drum Snorlax running amok, here's a funny niche set that could work to counter any annoying Custap abusers.

Volcanion @ Air Balloon/Assault Vest
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD (idk how to ev well, so somebody else can do this so that it works >->)
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Incinerate
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Steam Eruption

Pretty much functions the exact same as standard Volc, except with a weaker Flamethrower that completely invalidates Custaps. I initially considered an Unnerve user, but all the mons that have Unnerve either have a better ability (Haxorus, TTar, Corv) or simply aren't strong enough to be usable (Houndoom). However, the pool of mons that get access to Incinerate is high - think Ninetales, Volc, and Skeledirge. Honestly, I think it's a decent strategy given the current meta.

(or yk just run Okidogi with knock off/close combat but shut up this is funnier)
 
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also i know i just posted but idc

funni (Golem-Alola) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Galvanize
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 72 Hp / 180 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flail
- Endure
- Earthquake / Giga Impact
- Gyro Ball

this is funny. flail is really strong for no reason lmfao

edit: better EVs help it live Wood Hammer from Jolly Ogerpon-C while still managing to hit hard. unfortunately the added bulk makes it harder to get to max Flail bp but since Ogerpon-C is really common, plus many of the strong EQ's/EP's in the format it's not debilitating to it's effectiveness. However it literally cannot OHKO a single ground type in the meta so like just use Azu or something idk
 
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just realized revavroom exists

why is nobody talking about it it literally gets a free shift gear with air balloon and outspeeds max speed booster valiant even with adamant. and 100 bp stab.

AM I MISSING SOMETHING? IS THIS THING NOT A QUIRKED UP CAR THING BUSTING IT DOWN THAT IS GOATED WITH OR WITHOUT THE SAUCE?
 
excitedly ava said:
just realized revavroom exists

why is nobody talking about it it literally gets a free shift gear with air balloon and outspeeds max speed booster valiant even with adamant. and 100 bp stab.

AM I MISSING SOMETHING? IS THIS THING NOT A QUIRKED UP CAR THING BUSTING IT DOWN THAT IS GOATED WITH OR WITHOUT THE SAUCE?
Click to expand...
its stats are pretty mediocre and that 100bp stab slows it down. Additionally, even with an air balloon you aren't really beating any ground types because +1 gunk shot/spin out doesn't hit hard enough to really ohko anything. It's an interesting mon and pre home a couple people tried to make it work but right now it just cant keep up with much more powerful threats
 
Shell Smash Torterra

Can run WP Endure on Shell Smash as well if it so chooses.

+2 252+ Atk Overgrow Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 535-631 (102 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The Torterra stays winning.

Edit: Oh yeah it gets Headlong Rush, and Bullet Seed with Loaded Dice is probably worth something.
 
A couple thoughts on the metagame rn. Imo even with Lax and Ogerpon gone, there are still 3 major issues, being custap, valiant, and drago. All three constrict teambuilding to a very unhealthy degree, and valiant and arguably drago are broken. I'm not going to go fully in depth as to why but if these three things go, the metagame would be so much better. Anyways I've been having some fun with some weird looking sets, figured I'd share them.

:iron-valiant:
Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 148 HP / 248 Def / 40 SpA / 72 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast / Aura Sphere
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Vacuum Wave

This is a set I've really been enjoying. Offensive Valiant got a whole lot better with the addition of Vacuum Wave. With a bit of bulk investment, Valiant can easily 2HKO many strong Pokemon with an attack into Vacuum Wave. It is also of course great for dealing with custap. The EVs are speed for base 80s, bulk for 252 adamant corv brave bird b/c ladder is hell, and the rest in special attack, though of course this can easily be optimized further. You can also run Life Orb to be less conspicuous but the lack of recoil from booster is really nice. Offensive Valiant as a whole hasn't been experimented with too much, and between sets like Spdef Spirit Break, 3 attacks reversal, and this, Valiant is just very overwhelming and versatile, and people have barely scratched the surface of what it can do.

:regidrago:
Regidrago @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dragon's Maw
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Def / 228 SpA / 4 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Hyper Beam
- Dragon Energy

This is actually a set I used in Home meta during PL multiple times, but I'm posting it now because no one can stop me. The main idea is that you can destroy the vast majority of Meowscaradas and Iron Treads with Hyper Beam and Earth Power respectively. The EVs were for CB Play Rough from Meowscarada, Specs Moth, and a bit of speed creep b/c I can. The only ways Meowscarada can beat this set is if it randomly subs, which is always a throw if it has Charm or Play Rough. AV rn is boring but also works wonders with Scale Shot. I've been enjoying fast AV specifically but most things work wonders.

:baxcalibur:
Tbh I've been refining the set for a while and haven't come to a set EV spread, but LO seems to be the way to go. Loaded Dice is also still very solid, but with Cornerstone gone, I find that Life Orb is a bit more consistant. Glaive Rush/Icicle Crash/Icicle Spear/Scale Shot into Ice Shard just KOes too many great mons. Highly recommend if you're tired of spamming Regidrago

:ogerpon:
Trick immunity is amazing, and with Cornerstone gone, the other two masked forms have a lot of room to innovate. I've mainly been using an offensive Water one but you can't go wrong with most sets. Definitely not as broken as Cornerstone, and most likely won't ever be broken in general, but just very solid mons that have a lot of room to grow

I might do another one of these once I use more mons. In particular I haven't even touched some big mons like Manaphy and Blood Moon yet, if you have any fun/cool/good sets for them hit me up, have a good day, and please ban custap its so dumb
 
been playing around with a weakness policy Moltres-G set that honestly works really well (since apparently people only care abt AV).

Moltres-Galar @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Berserk
Shiny: No
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 52 SpA / 148 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Wrath
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt

EVs: Very reliable bulk. The calcs are here and the bulk and SpA is just really good across the board. It doesn't really need to outspeed anything so no speed investment is required. Honestly surprised I haven't seen this, it's super consistent and both Fiery Wrath and Air Slash have a flinch chance, so even if you're in a losing matchup against a slower offensive mon, say, a Bloodmoon, you still have a chance of winning. Fiery Wrath + Air Slash + Shadow Ball give really good coverage, plus Taunt for CM Cresselia and other stall lords.

Banded Lando-T: 252 Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 272-322 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Encore/Disable Valiant: 0 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Moltres-Galar: 176-210 (45.8 - 54.6%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 52+ SpA Moltres-Galar Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 564-666 (160.6 - 189.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (even with a low roll not triggering Berserk, still OHKOs)

Specs Valiant: 252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Moltres-Galar: 320-380 (83.3 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 52+ SpA Moltres-Galar Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 704-830 (243.5 - 287.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

204 Atk Iron Valiant Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 324-382 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(I'm gonna ignore band because I haven't seen anyone running Banded Valiant in 1v1 like ever but yeah it beats this set like 80% of the time but just like use volcanion or smth)

32+ Atk Annihilape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 113-133 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 7.7% chance to 3HKO
52+ SpA Moltres-Galar Air Slash vs. 240 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Annihilape: 116-140 (27.5 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (in Moltres' favor since Gunk Shot is inaccurate and is just about as strong as Air Slash, but Ape is faster so idk)

252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Moltres-Galar: 254-302 (66.1 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 52+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 270-318 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Not great, but it's decent considering it's one of the strongest special attackers that's legal in the format)

252+ Atk Normal Gem Sneasler Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 64-76 (16.6 - 19.7%)
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Moltres-Galar: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
52+ SpA Moltres-Galar Air Slash vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Sneasler: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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People. It has happened.
The big 1K. I am super happy that this has happened to me. This feels just... surreal. Some dude who joined a community a year ago gotten feedback incredibly quickly. Thank you all for this moment. But soon, I will be gone. And I will return a stronger man. Bigger. And better
 

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