OU SM OU Discussion Thread

[YubelVT]

View attachment 548814

Genuine question: why does the council feel Magnezone was worth potential tiering action?

 

[YubelVT]

So what's the strategy to beat the American Sharp Cheddar of the ladder, Trick Room (compared so because they're both shit cheese). TR crap is the only team style (outside of rain) that I consistently have trouble with.

 

[Skypenguin]

Genuine question: why does the council feel Magnezone was worth potential tiering action?

I was seeing things while making the charts; it was never actually on the survey. There was also a problem with the 1-10 enjoyment chart not including all the results - I fixed both, mb for the confusion

re: trick room, I've never personally had any issues with it since TR teams are so flawed. You just need to avoid wasting your marowak/daunt checks, and while it can be scary to face while using fat, it usually doesn't require many hard predictions. I think you tend to run teams with no fairy resists though so there's not much you can do against mag/maw in general '-'

 

[zinnias]

didnt expect anyone to want tiering action on magearna tbh, what are the arguments against it?

 

[YubelVT]

didnt expect anyone to want tiering action on magearna tbh, what are the arguments against it?

while I don't think magearna is broken enough to warrant a ban in gen 7, it is absurd and is arguably as much of a matchup challenge as volcarona, albeit in a different way. AV Magearna is basically unkillable on the special side (obviously) without multiple turns of setup or mega zardy, for example. Mag is naturally bulky enough that you can't really slap a hidden power on your mon and call it a day, you need either STAB super effective moves or something as absurdly strong as +2 Thundurus Therian Z Focus Blast (this is me spreading thundy t propaganda once again). Combine this with the honestly absurd movepool it has and you get something that's definitely top 3 and arguably top 1.

 

[zinnias]

while I don't think magearna is broken enough to warrant a ban in gen 7, it is absurd and is arguably as much of a matchup challenge as volcarona, albeit in a different way. AV Magearna is basically unkillable on the special side (obviously) without multiple turns of setup or mega zardy, for example. Mag is naturally bulky enough that you can't really slap a hidden power on your mon and call it a day, you need either STAB super effective moves or something as absurdly strong as +2 Thundurus Therian Z Focus Blast (this is me spreading thundy t propaganda once again). Combine this with the honestly absurd movepool it has and you get something that's definitely top 3 and arguably top 1.

Its use as a special wall is similar to Lando's usage as a physical wall IMO, usually being able to take just enough strong hits to do its job during a game, but it's certainly not unkillable in my opinion. Also, being top 3 or top 1 doesn't correlate to being banworthy. I think most players are aware that it's an amazing Pokémon but if someone thinks that it's worthy of tiering action I'm interested in hearing what pushes it over the edge for them.

 

[YubelVT]

Its use as a special wall is similar to Lando's usage as a physical wall IMO, usually being able to take just enough strong hits to do its job during a game, but it's certainly not unkillable in my opinion.

ngl I feel like taking this little from something as strong as a Thundurus-Therian Z Focus Blast makes it feel unkillable, and even at +2 (normally a harbinger of death) is only a 2hko. Granted that's a 2hko that's also strong enough to put it in range for something else but still, AV Magearna is obscenely bulky
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 100-118 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 199-235 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[zinnias]

Unkillable isn't just about its bulk. You can kill Magearna just by having it come in on moves throughout a game. Since it cannot heal without wish support, which it is rarely paired with, it is far from unkillable

 

[Oya/Semort]

Okay, so it's been a while and with excperience I tested mon that I either didn't know how yo play, or didn't like at the beginning so I didn't bothered trying to use them, here are my good surprises:

That blob was so annoying to me, hard to kill, spreading status, boring to play, BUT I discovered the life orb variant, and it was an instant hit, catching people off guard with a fire blast on ferro, a t bolt on a torna or simply a hard hitting moonblast, definitely cool.

This one I played quite a bit and it didn't struck me (pun intended), I mean it's a crazy good mon with goat speed tier, pivot moves and it hits hard with specs, but it lacked flexibility imo, and that flexibility, I found it with the special electrium z and the life orb sets, feinting to be locked to then unleash a big super effective move on an unsuspecting mon is neat!

This one I'll admit I underestimated it by a mile, that thing is so powerfull, having it on a team is the assurance of not being frail, it's speed tier is more than decent, and the liberty on the moveset is pretty pleasant.

As time goes I notice that I like less and less hyper offense teams, like, they seems pretty brainrot to me, especially things like the xtra shine, the tiebreak ho by abr or the one with cress cune volcarona.

 

[YubelVT]

Okay, so it's been a while and with excperience I tested mon that I either didn't know how yo play, or didn't like at the beginning so I didn't bothered trying to use them, here are my good surprises:

That blob was so annoying to me, hard to kill, spreading status, boring to play, BUT I discovered the life orb variant, and it was an instant hit, catching people off guard with a fire blast on ferro, a t bolt on a torna or simply a hard hitting moonblast, definitely cool.

This one I played quite a bit and it didn't struck me (pun intended), I mean it's a crazy good mon with goat speed tier, pivot moves and it hits hard with specs, but it lacked flexibility imo, and that flexibility, I found it with the special electrium z and the life orb sets, feinting to be locked to then unleash a big super effective move on an unsuspecting mon is neat!

This one I'll admit I underestimated it by a mile, that thing is so powerfull, having it on a team is the assurance of not being frail, it's speed tier is more than decent, and the liberty on the moveset is pretty pleasant.

As time goes I notice that I like less and less hyper offense teams, like, they seems pretty brainrot to me, especially things like the xtra shine, the tiebreak ho by abr or the one with cress cune volcarona.

have u tried thundurus therian he's pretty cool i think

 

[Oya/Semort]

have u tried thundurus therian he's pretty cool i think

Not yet but since it’s proposed so nicely I’ll give it a shot

 

[zinnias]

In a similar post to the one above, by the goat Kabani, I will describe two Pokémon that I warmed up to as I used them more.

When I first heard people say that Mega Latias was the best Mega evolution in the tier, I had no clue what they were talking about. Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile are so much stronger! Mega Alakazam outspeeds the whole unboosted meta! Mega Lopunny destroys offense! However, while all of these things are true, I then learned what Mega Latias brings to the table.

Just the virtues of it's typing, ability, and stats alone bring so much utility to a team. When you're not using a blazing fast offence that relies on the crushing power of Mega's, or a team on the other end of the spectrum that loves Mega Sableye to sit on hazard setters, it's hard to argue against all of the things it brings in one slot. Okay, so what are these things?

Mega Latias has 350 speed, which for a defensive Pokémon is electrifying. You outspeed the incredibly threatening Swords Dance Kartana and threaten it back. Not to mention that Lati can come in on a leaf blade or sacred sword if they choose to throw off an attack instead. But Lati, of course, resists more than just grass and fighting. It has a resistance to water, fire, electric, psychic, and a whole immunity to ground! It's safe to say that Mega Lati is blessed with these resistances to common attacking types.

The defensive typing alone already makes it great, but now I will move on to what Mega Latias itself can do. Ice beam is to be expected on any utility set, but why is this? It allows Lati to outspeed and force out Landorus Therian, Garchomp, and most importantly, the rising metagame star of Swords Dance Gliscor! Swords Dance Gliscor is brutally threatening to the sort of teams that Latias is paired with. It just spams Swords Dance as it's opponent realises that maybe Celesteela isn't a check to this after all. You can't be passive against it. However, when you have a Mega Latias, that damn scorpion is in and out within a turn, fearing the likely OHKO of an ice beam.

Then you have a slot for recover. The reliable recovery that Lati possesses allows it to just come in and take attacks for breakfast, heal it off, and go about its day. The next two move slots are more customisable than a Mr. Potato Head doll. You could run earthquake to threaten Heatran, you could run HP Fighting to make Tyranitar think twice about coming in on Lati when it has been chipped; and you could even run psychic for the sheer power of hitting things neutral, which even uninvested, is coming from a 140 base special attack. If you would like Lati to go full team player, you can even slot on things like Thunder Wave, Defog, and Roar! There is another common set, the calm mind set, which can run boltbeam coverage, or even Stored Power (although I feel this set is more of a receiver of team support than being the team support). I prefer the Utility sets, but each to their own.

Overall, I feel these qualities make Mega Lati a beastly team player, and for its customisability, perhaps the Landorus-Therian of mega evolutions?

I have a little less to say about this charming frog, sadly, but don't take this away from how great it is. Firstly, why the hell would someone use this big blue lump over more established users of water-ground typing like Gastrodon and Quagsire? If I boiled it down to just the little advantages it has in some areas, I would find that to be quite reductive of the practical application of these traits. However, it is hard to get the point across without sounding like I'm saying "Just trust me, bro." so I will try.

Seismitoad holds a combination of Stealth Rock, the most hurtful earthquakes, knock off, and refresh, which it's competition doesn't have. One could also argue that Water Absorb > Storm Drain, but I don't think that's even worth bringing up. Simply put, Seismitoad brings more to a team than just being a water-ground type that is good at using its typing. If you're looking for something that stays at 100% and sits on the possessed washing machine, use Gastro, my friend. If you entrust a valuable team slot to Seismitoad, in exchange for reliable recovery, he can bring you entry hazards, item removal, and status absorption (Refresh or Rest can be used to laugh in the face of pesky toxic users hoping to put this thing on a timer). Since it absorbs status, it handles Toxapex a lot easier than Gastrodon who fears toxic, and also Seismitoad can scare out pex with a 2HKO. It's hard to argue that Seismitoad hasn't entered the conversation in this regard.

 

[CM Reuniclus]

Recently, my love for SM OU has been rekindled, mostly by the fact I have friends who also play this tier (and tbh they are far better than I am). But I thought I would give my own views on a couple pokemon that i have enjoyed using and think are good right now.

- My eyes were opened to this mon after reading Skypenguin's VR post, but personally, I've found this pokemon to really thrive on hyper offensive teams. Not that cheese scarf cresselia + suicune ABR team, but actually I've found it to be a brilliant part of any standard style HO due to it providing its team with a switch in to a giant portion of the meta game and being able to cripple common big threats such as mega-medicham or tapu lele with thunder wave, as well as obviously being able to lunar dance one of your own weakened mons back to full HP. This in conjunction with pokemon that often take chip or strong hits before firing off its strong attacks such as dragon dance charizard-X and calm mind magearna make it very difficult for bulkier teams not to get broken down. i think that the best item for cresselia on HO is eject button for the ability to either take powerful attacks, scout choice-locked pokemon or simply to deny a u-turn/volt switch and bring in a threat to take advantage from there.
I have been using a team of recently and it has been working quite well for me so far (although I've only really used it on the ladder).
For the record I also think this mon can function on fatter teams or even stall due to its ability to cover such a large portion of meta game threats. However, I don't like running calm mind much as it just feels inferior to most other cm sweepers such as reuniclus, with it having magic guard, and mega-latias, with its great speed tier and dual typing. Cresselia as a cm sweeper doesn't really have any draws to me other than being obscenely fat and being way too weak without getting to like +3 first.

- I used to not like this pokemon but now i think it is lowkey broken tbh. It is far from being a predictable, linear pokemon in this metagame now, mostly due to its good movepool and the option of Z-moves. Standard Z-move sets run Kommonium-Z clanging scales, fighting move and whatever else you want to run, but I now think that one of its best sets is dragon dance 3 attacks sets of either groundium-, poisinium-, electrium- or even icium-Z to snipe opposing pokemon such as toxapex, magearna, tapu fini, clefable, slowbro or latias, using its surprise factor to open a way for its teammates. Kommo-o also finds itself being a great fit on balance teams because of its good typing defensively, and its solid support movepool with rocks, toxic, roar, taunt and drain punch to name some options showing its not just diverse on HO. I've now found myself commonly slotting this pokemon onto my teams and i doubt its's gonna stop soon.

I might make another post to talk about my personal favorite mons that aren't as great as I believe these 2 are, but that's a task for future me to think about.

 

[clematis]

Been recommended to post here specifically, so I thought I'd talk about a core that I've found myself using a fair amount recently, and seems to be pretty consistent with how the metagame works rn. I'm not the highest rated (1400-1500), but it's pretty good at dealing with a lot of common threats.

Gliscor + Chansey is a core I feel unintentionally finds its way onto a fair amount of balanced teams, at least when I'm building them. The two have a lot of good synergy together and good utility for most any team, with a status absorber and a pseudo-status absorber, plus Chansey providing Stealth Rock and potentially spreading status of its own. Gliscor, meanwhile, can run almost any set but I've found the Swords Dance one to be the most consistent, as it forces a lot of switches and you can react accordingly.

In terms of defensive synergy, it's pretty good. Gliscor baits in things like Rotom-Wash, Greninja, which Chansey can handle easily, and resists Fighting-type attacks which threaten the pink blob. Gliscor being flying-type really helps here too, for random Earthquakes being tossed around by Pokemon such as Landorus-T and even Heatran, which gets utterly neutralised by this core on its own (watch out for Magma Storm // Taunt Stallbreaker Tran, which is a problem if Glisc is weakened enough). There are a few specific threats which I'll outline below:

• Mega Lopunny with Ice Punch. Hoo boy. Neither of these two can do anything against it, really. If it's PuP + Encore then you're less buggered, but still. Not a great matchup.
• Kartana if it gets to +2. Gliscor isn't taking the Leaf Blade and god forbid if it's Normalium Z, because then it's not even locked into a single move.
• Generally hard hitting physical attackers. They can muscle through Chansey with enough chip, so be careful with your HP.
• Tapu Lele

Other Pokemon that synergise well with this core are generally also pretty bulky. Something like a Celesteela maybe, because it somewhat alleviates the absolutely AWFUL Tapu Lele matchup here. Also gets to click Protect on Mega Lopunny's HJK, which makes for some fun mindgames and allows you to deal with it. Flamethrower can handle Kartana very handily, too. Rotom-W or Tornadus are also decent partners owing to their ability to pivot into these - Tornadus especially really enjoys bringing one of these in via U-Turn because of Regenerator, and it can Defog away entry hazards and Knock Off into things like Ferrothorn, allowing Gliscor to weaken it that little bit more easily.

As a side note, I generally prefer to run Thunder Wave on Chansey rather than Toxic - it helps Gliscor out immensely if you decide to run the Swords Dance set, and even if you don't, this core generally is found on much bulkier, slower teams. Something like Choice Specs Tapu Lele, for example, will have a much easier time running rampant when threats like Banded Weavile are paralysed and it can simply click Moonblast to seal the deal. Similarly, Choice Scarf Jirachi (which is a problem to this pairing) is much easier to deal with when it's not outspeeding everything it sees. You do lose the ability to threaten things out with Toxic, but I like the Thunder Wave option a lot more when it comes to faster/more offensive teams, which is where this core properly shines.

Importable (feel free to run any Gliscor set depending on what the team needs specifically. Knock Off is great specifically.)

 

[zinnias]

As a side note, I generally prefer to run Thunder Wave on Chansey rather than Toxic

It's an interesting choice to make. Thunder Wave Chansey punishes things that try to take advantage of a toxic immunity like Steel types and Toxapex (and Magic Guard also technically). However, have you ever had those moments where a Pokemon can just sit on T-Wave Chansey and heal off Seismic Toss damage? Toxic on Chansey is more of a forced progress measure (there's a common phrase for toxic, putting something on a timer). It may be my impatient playstyle but I just like seeing numbers go down (even if this is after 8 heal bells have been used) so I rarely run T-Wave Chansey. However if you're running Chansey on something more offensive than balance, T Wave is something I'd prefer to use in order to soften teams up for a breaker.

but I've found the Swords Dance one to be the most consistent

Cultured af. I would call it the best Gliscor set if it wasn't so damn good at defogging. The most aggravating part about facing SD Gliscor is that it lasts so, so long. And it is a threat, for so, so long (except when using the best mega in the tier )


As for partners to compliment this duo, a defensive steel for sure. Skarm lays down spikes and checks Kartana, Excadrill, and Lopunny (somewhat shakily but if you have a helmet it'll help your chances). Sadly Skarm folds like some origami to Lele and Zam, which may lead you to prefer Celesteela as a partner (its alright against Exca too but please don't switch it into Kart). Then there is also Jirachi (wish support isn't big when it comes to these two but it can keep itself healthy well and check psychics) and Magearna which is such a useful mon it kinda wouldnt matter who the two are, it'd still be of benefit. Nothing stopping you from running two steel types either, just make sure one of them checks Lele. Rain is mid+ mu fish but getting yourself a water resist can't hurt as a team partner.

 

[clematis]

However, have you ever had those moments where a Pokemon can just sit on T-Wave Chansey and heal off Seismic Toss damage?

Oh, for sure! It's a situation that happens fairly often, I've found that the best scenario there is just to go into something else. If you've got the target paralysed, then you're reasonably okay to swap into something that can handle it, especially if you can predict their heal, which gives you an opportunity to swap. It's very much a personal choice, as you say, but my play- and teambuilding style tends to revolve around waiting for the perfect opportunity to go for a setup, for example with something like Magearna or Calm Mind Lele (which I find to work especially well with this, owing to the fact it outspeeds enough paralysed mons to go for a +1 or +2 sweep, and loves Gliscor dealing with stuff like Heatran). Toxic is absolutely usable here, for sure. Personal preference and team context moment. If you've already got a fast cleaner like (as an example) something with a Scarf, you'd probably prefer to have Toxic anyways (though I think this core sucks so much momentum it wants to be on a bulkier team). Regardless, I've gone ahead and edited the importable to include Toxic Chansey, as it's very valid as an option over Thunder Wave.

And it is a threat, for so, so long (except when using the best mega in the tier )

I don't disagree with you for sure, Latias is exceptionally consistent (and ironically enough works well with this core, almost turning it into a semi-stall team if you add Toxic Spikes Toxapex; though it's very consistently answered by Celesteela if paralysed, and Fairium Z Magearna (which is something that I very much like) if not:

224+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 320-380 (88.1 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Magearna: 57-68 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Stealth Rock

This pair of calcs assumes that you've switched Magearna in as Latias clicks Calm Mind (which seems to happen a fair amount), and just go straight for the Z-Move. If you've bought Magearna in at all, it's probably towards the end of the game so you can go for a countersweep of your own. If, however, you end up in a straight boosting war against Latias, then it looks like this:

+6 0 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (260 BP) vs. +4 248 HP / 8 SpD Magearna: 219-258 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Magearna tanks the Stored Power to retaliate with
+4 224+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 362-428 (99.7 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
The reason that Magearna is only at +4 in both of these examples is that you'll always be one turn behind Latias if you switch in, and you'll lose another turn to click Twinkle Tackle as Latias boosts to +6. Even if you're a turn late, I find Latias can always be handled by Magearna (unless it's Reflect Type, but Reflect Type Latias is exceptionally niche and not particularly consistent, I find). The Calm Mind + Pain Split set is the one I find myself most often running, but Shift Gear + Calm Mind with Fairium Z Fleur Cannon and Focus Blast is most definitely an option if you want to get the drop on a lot of pokemon like Scarf Landorus (immune to Thunder Wave) or Scarf Kartana (immune to Toxic and threatens Chansey out with Sacred Sword).

Tornadus also likes to run Supersonic Skystrike if you prefer over the bulkier Helmet set, just to guarantee that it can beat Normalium Z Kartana - relying on a 75% accurate Hurricane to KO something that will singlehandedly rip through a team if it can get to +2 and click Z-Giga Impact vs the bird really isn't a strategy. SSSS is a much more consistent answer, the only problem being that Magearna / Lele really want to be running the Z-Move. It does, however, provide you with this especially funny calc vs the really annoying thing with the Rocky Helmet that likes to switch in vs it, for some reason, predicting the U-Turn:

252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 322-381 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I do, though, usually run Rocky Helmet. It's another interesting choice for Flyinium Z, but again, you really want the bulk.

Rain is mid+ mu fish but getting yourself a water resist can't hurt as a team partner.

Rain matchup is manageable, as you say, but I often find that you end up having to sack something in order to click a move, especially vs Swampert-M. Again, one of those situations where Toxic > Thunder Wave. Suggestions for that would be hugely appreciated. Maybe Scarf Serperior for Glare?

I've also linked two nearly-complete teams where I've built around the defensive synergy of Chansey + Gliscor, both using Rocky Helmet Tornadus-T and a variant of a Calm Mind setup sweeper (the Magearna team is probably much better tbh, but it's just too slow. Shift Gear might be a better option), plus Celesteela, which I personally prefer over Skarmory just for the better MU into opposing Lele.

Team 1: CM + Pain Split Magearna

Team 2: CM + Fightinium Z Tapu Lele

Again, critiques on both of these (but primarily the first one considering it's the one I've been using the most) would be much appreciated :)

 

[zinnias]

Maybe Scarf Serperior for Glare?

Never really saw that as a great MPert answer unless you're using something super offensive. The sorta super offensive teams that don't have a Gliscor and Chansey on them. I would suggest Slowbro or Rotom-Wash as a water resisting partner on bulkier teams.

Again, critiques on both of these (but primarily the first one considering it's the one I've been using the most) would be much appreciated :)

Out of the two I'd probably rather use the CM Split one because I see Lele as a good fit on offense but a less than ideal fit on bulkier teams, due to how little defensive utility it has, and also how it's prone to being worn down more than Magearna who resists rocks and can pain split (also immune to Toxic which can really mess with Lele). Also I would say CM split Magearna is better vs opposing bulky teams.

As for a Mega to compliment these 5, I'm not entirely sure. Mega Lopunny would certainly help to offensively check things, but then there's also Mega Latias who can spread paralysis and also make you better vs some other mega threats like Medi and Pert (thats not to say its a great answer to the two, but it gives you a lot more outplay potential than currently. It can generally switch in to Medi and threaten it out.) I would love to add Slowbro to that 5 also, but I think that would also call for perhaps a restructuring of whats already there, and where the Mega stone gets slotted in. Overall looks quite solid, I've faced those types of teams with Gliscor, Chansey, Mage, usually Pex/Bro and they perform pretty nicely

 

[clematis]

Never really saw that as a great MPert answer unless you're using something super offensive. The sorta super offensive teams that don't have a Gliscor and Chansey on them. I would suggest Slowbro or Rotom-Wash as a water resisting partner on bulkier teams.

Very sensible. I'm very much not the best at teambuilding so that's a very obvious flaw that I overlooked, lol

I'd probably rather use the CM Split one

Agreed. Magearna just fits much more easily and it has Pain Split to boot, which is useful enough given how many switches it forces.

In terms of Megas, Latias is actually a very nice option that I hadn't really considered, especially with the fact I basically exclusively run the Calm Mind Stored Power set, but that seems a little redundant here. BoltBeam / Thunder Wave / Roost looks very solid though, and it allows Toxic on Chansey, which is pretty nice to have now that another team member is covering spreading paralysis. It's potentially also an option to run the standard Mega Latios set (but on Latias-M for extra bulk), I feel, just for the ability to actually deal with Toxapex who otherwise is an enormous problem.

 

[zinnias]

I'm bored, so I just wanted to make a post here about a thought I had, which is that Toxapex can actually be quite hard to switch into without a dedicated status absorber. By status absorber, I mean a Pokemon that doesn't care about status (usually due to an ability). These include Gliscor, Clefable, Reuniclus, and at a stretch Natural Cure pokemon like Chansey and pre-mega Altaria (alt players usually wait a while to evolve since natural cure is so good to have against pieces of shit like serp)

Lets take a standard ladder team. fuck it, the most standard ladder team, German111 offence.



The sets may vary, but one thing sure doesn't. None of these Pokemon want to switch into Scald. Landorus is weak to water, and is about as useful and dangerous as a housefly when burned. Assuming it's an assault vest Magearna, and not one of the less common pain split variants, it also isn't getting any healthier, so having 6% taken off each turn can be brutal. Greninja and Tapu Koko are in a similar boat, with even roost Tapu Koko being annoyed by scald burn in conjunction with hazards forcing it to constantly roost. Medicham and Hawlucha also despise burn halving their attack and taking them out of the game.

It's not just these Pokemon that hate Scald burn. Even defensive pokemon hate it too. Zapdos gets its leftovers cancelled out. Or worse, it's on an infuriating timer before it's forced to roost once again. It is crazy how opting to switch to a specially defensive Heatran instead of a Rotom Wash against Toxapex wouldn't even be that crazy of a play. It's been said many times before but having a water type move that burns is horrifically obnoxious.

Of course if you just use a water immune pokemon to switch into Scald, there's no burn problem. Then it can just throw off a Toxic. The only water absorb pokemon that wants to get toxic'd is Seismitoad, when it can use Refresh or Rest. Not to mention how horrific toxic spikes can be, making defogging more of a priority than even rocks or spikes when you don't have a poison type (There is a single poison type in OU, and if you don't know which it is, then it won't be that hard to guess.)

And even after all of this, there are still people that would call Toxapex passive, and that it's passivity can be taken advantage of. It can throw off two types of status, hazards, and it can't be set up on. Toxapex is so horrible to play against because it's NOT passive

 

[bdt2002]

Hey there, SM OU community. I haven’t played this meta in quite some time so I’m still getting caught up with popular trends, but I think I rediscovered something that could fit nicely as a check to both standard offense and balance cores. Case in point, what are your guys’ opinions on this thing?



Celesteela caught my attention a few months ago thanks to its combination of typing, bulk, and access to Leech Seed to accentuate its recovery with Leftovers. Seeing all of the hype around SD Gliscor motivated me to try and find a consistent check to it and the Pokémon that seem to be rising in popularity around it such as Chansey and Latias-Mega. Of the available options, Celesteela stood out as a Steel-Type immune to Ground that historically has paired well with other offensive checks (most notably Toxapex) and the Unaware Walls Clefable and Quagsire. I also particularly like how Leech Seed Celesteela can at least attempt to stay in on most Magearna sets, only really being consistently afraid of the rare Electrium Z boosted Volt Switch after a Soul Heart Sp. Atk. boost (a set that from what I can tell has faded into obscurity in favor of the CM + Pain Split variant holding Fairium Z instead).

I can see a few other prospects doing really well alongside Celesteela on dedicated balance structures and a particularly nasty Unaware Stall set-up I’ve started building with again. I’ll be happy to share more information about this Pokémon later, but for now I want to know where everyone else stands on Celesteela in this meta. It might not be the flashiest Pokémon in the world, but I’ve been severely underrating this Pokémon for long enough and I’d much rather have something that’s reliable than flashy.

 

[clematis]

Hey there, SM OU community. I haven’t played this meta in quite some time so I’m still getting caught up with popular trends, but I think I rediscovered something that could fit nicely as a check to both standard offense and balance cores. Case in point, what are your guys’ opinions on this thing?



Celesteela caught my attention a few months ago thanks to its combination of typing, bulk, and access to Leech Seed to accentuate its recovery with Leftovers. Seeing all of the hype around SD Gliscor motivated me to try and find a consistent check to it and the Pokémon that seem to be rising in popularity around it such as Chansey and Latias-Mega. Of the available options, Celesteela stood out as a Steel-Type immune to Ground that historically has paired well with other offensive checks (most notably Toxapex) and the Unaware Walls Clefable and Quagsire. I also particularly like how Leech Seed Celesteela can at least attempt to stay in on most Magearna sets, only really being consistently afraid of the rare Electrium Z boosted Volt Switch after a Soul Heart Sp. Atk. boost (a set that from what I can tell has faded into obscurity in favor of the CM + Pain Split variant holding Fairium Z instead).

I can see a few other prospects doing really well alongside Celesteela on dedicated balance structures and a particularly nasty Unaware Stall set-up I’ve started building with again. I’ll be happy to share more information about this Pokémon later, but for now I want to know where everyone else stands on Celesteela in this meta. It might not be the flashiest Pokémon in the world, but I’ve been severely underrating this Pokémon for long enough and I’d much rather have something that’s reliable than flashy.

Celesteela is one of those things that I'd rather never face, if I'm totally honest. Considering how straight up bulky it is and also how bad it can be to deal with without something like Tapu Koko and Heatran, a lot of times it totally screws me over. Leech seed is absolutely awful, Protect vs Mega Lopunny, blah blah. Hope I never run into it, and god forbid one played effectively honestly.

 

[clematis]

Definitely didn't post this in the wrong thread before, no no no.

Weavile is one of those mons that's super paralysing to see in the prep phase before a match. A lot of the time, you can hard counter it (for example with something like a Ferrothorn, Magearna, etc who resist its dual STABs), or it will completely disintegrate your entire team with the combination of Life Orb / Choice Band boosted Knock Offs, Pursuits, etc etc, with maybe the occasional Ice Shard thrown in there.

However, those two sets are practically the only things you see in game, now - the prevalence of the LO and Band sets in the current meta means that a lot of the time, Weavile can be almost dead weight if you're facing a competent opponent and they're playing around you, because it's possible to correctly guess the set. Thus, I would like to submit to the council something new, fresh, dare I say inspired. A surprise factor, if you will:

Swords Dance + Fightinium Z Weavile

Weavile @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick

The first two moves are genuinely up to your team - if you need Pursuit support or extra damage from Icicle Crash, go for it! Either of them are really good, though I've been preferring to run Ice Shard and Knock Off to better support teams and to clean up weakened Pokemon. Again, though, do what you want. They're not the main attraction here.

Swords Dance and Low Kick are what makes this set. Weavile's main counters at the moment are stuff like Magearna, Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Heatran, along with maaaaybe Volcarona, but if you're bringing the moth in against this I salute you.

Do you see a trend?

A Fightinium Z-boosted Low Kick is going to seriously chunk everything in that list with the exception of the bug. Even more so if it's at +2. Given how many switches Weavile forces on its own, it's a single misprediction from your opponent for you to set up, and unleash. They go into their "counter" as you Swords Dance? You click Z and you click Low Kick and it's going to die. Even if you don't have the opportunity to Swords Dance, Low Kick deals a not insignificant amount of damage on the switch in to a lot of things that generally don't want to be taking it. Furthermore, you can seriously cripple a lot of common answers, forcing them back out again. Even the Z isn't necessary, as +2 STAB Knock Offs are not insignificant coming off of a base 125 Attack, especially when that base 125 Attack is outspeeding a lot of non-scarfed mons.

Calcs

At +0:
252 Atk Weavile All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 256-302 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Weavile All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 147-173 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Weavile All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 314-370 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Weavile All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 156-184 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (you need to be at +2 for this one, but hopefully it's already been Knocked Off lol)
252 Atk Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 182-216 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leech Seed recovery (Zone is kind of an answer. Last case scenario)

Obviously, at +2 this is going to OHKO everything above after Rocks, except for Celesteela, which even then doesn't want to be taking a +2 Knock Off. Even Ice Shard at +2 will kill after Leech Seed recovery from you, assuming it clicks Leech as you Z.

Honestly, aside from Celesteela one of the best counters is Mega Scizor. It's bulky enough to sponge even a +2 Z-Low Kick, and that's assuming it didn't click Bullet Punch for whatever reason:

+2 252 Atk Weavile All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 221-260 (64.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 264-312 (93.9 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Aside from those two, though, I'm struggling to think of any consistent checks/counters/answers to Weavile that actively want to take +2 Z-Low Kicks and +2 Knock Offs without boosts other than Clefable and the aforementioned Scizor.

+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 208-246 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Landorus-Therian: 376-448 (117.8 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Scarf Lando)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 381-448 (135.5 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Specs Lele)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 340-402 (119.2 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Pre-Transform Greninja)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja-Ash: 344-406 (120.7 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (catch it on the switchin, if you mispredict +2 Knock Off into+2 Ice Shard will kill anyway, and its own Water Shuriken won't against you - 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 147-174 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- approx. 2HKO)

Maybe it's not the best at singlehandedly dealing with the entire meta. But hey, there's 6 mons on a team! May as well use them all, I guess.


Otherwise thanks for reading, and I hope everyone likes this! :D

 

[Oya/Semort]

As the sm circuit of this year approaches it's end, I'm here again, doing a recap, a year that felt a bit underwhelming in results, in a sense, I never liked the tier as much as I do right now, playing smogon masters showed me why I stayed here instead of moving to ss or oras.

First things first, some hyper offensive team, especially with the diancie rona core seems more and more annoying to me, then there is the ladder problem, pretty hard to test teams if your opponents are grc111 or fildrongestnul, the ladder achievments are really cool tho.

Each day, gliscor rises in the tier, at least it's not as broken as in a certain generation but it can be so cool yet so annoying, eating anything not iced that you throw at it.

Then, where are the positive things? Well, I feel like I understand the game way better than before, and it's pretty satisfying. Also I fought with plenty of new people, met some old opponents and really it was cool experience ( s/o AcneAutist for being a chad) as they were pretty nice, I'm looking forward to next year's circuit, hf everyone!!

 

[Aurella]

Reuniclus set that has potential.


Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Ice]

HP Ice Life Orb Reuniclus set I came up with around last Stour. Playing semi-stall mirrors gets tiresome so I made this set to speed up the progress of games a lot quicker, the main pros of this set are that it tackles numerous semi-stall and fat balance staples by itself without having to fish with z-moves.

Notable calcs:
+Hard 2hko on every black sludge pex at 0 CM boosts, meaning fast haze cannot beat you.
+Hard 2hko on Evio Chansey at 2 CM boosts instead of 4
+High 2hko chance at +4 against Latias instead of barely a 2hko chance at +6 (with lorb you also beat Stored Power Latias 1v1)
+OHKO glisc at +1 instead of being hard setup fodder for it.

Another helpful bonus to ice clus is that you also have an offensive out vs physical dragon boosters and landorus without having to acid armor or hard into skarmory every time, the surprise factor also helps out there too (especially against incoming punishment Lando). Lorb also helps if you're weak to trapper fini and just need to suicide damage into it as quickly as possible. The cons of this set are obvious: you need more anti-steel/dark support since you're forgoing focus miss, so on that note magnezone is a good idea to pair into this to eliminate competition from troublesome fat steels that it couldn't take on even with focus miss like swap mag, scizor and so on. You'll also need to be more mindful on your tertiary knock absorbers since you won't be harding this clus into tornadus. Try also not to rush the win con too fast since you need to bait for enemy toxic and scald so you aren't t-wave cucked later on.

My last clus take is that I don't think it's worth boosting into Speed EVs anymore, no serious sm'r will let you catch them at 0 speed pex and most likely will always speed creep you into ranges that are unreasonable for you to chase after (unless you really enjoy dying to u-turn). Amoonguss and CM bro are pretty rare anyways but off the top of my head Idt guss is speed crept nearly as greedily.

Others thoughts SM thoughts I've had lately are that I don't really enjoy ice latias that much, yes it's a "hard" counter to gliscor but over a long game it's very easy for a gliscor user to bait lati into coming into rocks + facade over many turns for free while it itself goes HP neutral each time during the same exchanges.

 

[clematis]

I want to talk about Mega Absol, since I've been really enjoying using it lately, and I feel like it's one of those semi-niche things that flies under a lot of people's radars.

Magic Bounce is a really cool ability, and means that you can, unsurprisingly, do an absolute number against stall, and its Dark typing means you're immune to Prankster shenanigans too. Absol's movepool, too, is something to behold, with a good selection of both Physical and Special moves. Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Pursuit, Swords Dance, and Play Rough are all totally viable, and do hit hard coming off of a fully invested base 150 Attack. Even specially, you can run Fire Blast and Ice Beam, and uninvested it'll absolutely chunk Landorus, Gliscor, Ferrothorn, etc. 150/115/115 are really good in terms of offensive stats, especially if you choose to run Swords Dance too.

I've been using two different sets recently, both of which have their merits.

Swords Dance

Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance

This one makes use of Absol's sky-high Attack and access to Swords Dance to act as a monstrous wallbreaker. You're practically immune to status, and I can't honestly think of anything that actively wants to be taking a +2 Knock Off or Play Rough aside from a select few Megas. Most games, I've been able to set up at least once and pick up a kill or two. Entry hazards are obviously super nice with this, so I'd suggest pairing with Ash-Greninja for a terrifying double Dark core. Absol's 65/60/60 aren't great defensively, but with careful play and technique you can make it work well enough. It's a lot of fun though, which I feel is kind of the point of this. Just watch out for U-Turn.

Mixed

Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 156 Atk / 100 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast

On the other hand, mixed Absol is a surprising answer to a pretty large chunk of the more passive parts of the metagame. You pretty much invalidate Stall, even stuff like Ferrothorn, SubSeed Serperior, random Thunder Waves and Toxics being tossed around, Gliscor, etc cetera. Even base 115 SpA is nothing to laugh at, and Ice Beam and Fire Blast provide a decent enough coverage for the aforementioned things. Being able to cleanly outspeed and OHKO Garchomp is, I feel, doubly nice to have, while 100 SpA guarantees the kill on 244 Jolly Gliscor after Rocks. You need 224 SpA to kill 252 SpD Careful, but imo that's an unacceptable drop in power for Knock Off.

You may have noticed that neither of these sets have Pursuit on them. This is entirely for personal preference, but rest assured it absolutely is workable. I simply prefer the combination of Knock Off and Sucker Punch in most cases, especially on set 1, where STAB +2 Sucker Punch is gonna do a ludicrous amount to a lot of the metagame. However, Pursuit is still a very good choice, given how many switches Absol forces. The 4MSS absolutely sucks, but hey ho. I guess you could drop Play Rough if you really want, but then you get hard walled by Kommo-O. Fire Blast is droppable on set 2, as long as you have something like Magnezone to deal with Scizor and Ferro.

Anyway, there's my two cents. Give it a try! :D

(if you want the teams drop me a message, I'm not too happy with them but hey ho)