It was a joke to lead into my next post ;( sorry for not specifying that you have to have 2 attacking moves+bait tera bruh…chill out
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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The first part of the post was not for you. Thus, why I segmented them. Also, I'd recommend making one post with all your ideas on it, and not two posts that are ten minutes apart. That leaves people (like me) with ten minutes of not being in on a completely opaque joke.
ye in hindsight that makes more sense
Moving over to different subjects, I think we need to seriously consider the Gholdengo-Hazard debate. Because it's clear its one of the things which has the thread the most on edge (in part thanks to Gliscor), and until some decision is made, we're not getting anywhere with it.
Burn me at the stake if you must but as a defensive mon, not a hazard setter, mixed unaware clodsire > Ting Lu
Thats right I said it. Ting Lu is solid but what does it do over gliscor? Not a whole lot. Clodsire on the other hand beats cm valiant (ev to escape psyshock 2hko) booster iron moth, cm enamorous, non sub zamazenta, can't be crippled by toxic on glimmora. I mean it beats ghold too but I guess I can give Ting Lu that credit as well. All Ting Lu can do to these pokemon is eat a hit then whirlwind. I'll post my set later today it's still an MVP in the 1700s
CEO of Anti-Gholdengo here:
This is not directed at the Council, but people here.
Do not advocate to Suspect Test Gholdengo in DLC1. Because it's gonna be a like 30% Ban, people are extremely resistant to blaming any problem Gholdengo causes on anything else.
Because Gholdengo in a lot of cases is a good glue, it makes teambuilding easier, so it's easier to like competitively. A lot of the cope is also that we will get more Hazard Removal in DLC2.
You shouldn't advocate for a DLC1 Suspect Test, wait until DLC2, the final meta, and watch the hope drain out of people's eyes as no matter what, Gholdengo will win out.
Wait until Gholdengo has beaten the "only blocks minimal hazard removal distribution" allegations, and I promise you that opinions will start to turn more against it.
Besides, even if it was banned (which would be a very hard thing to get done), it'd definitely get unbanned in DLC2 anyways.
The focus of anyone who wants to get Gholdengo banned should be to setup the argument for DLC2, and argue about how Gholdengo shifts the hazard metagame negatively from a historical perspective, I feel. And how Gholdengo breaks this precedent.
Because by traditional means, Gholdengo is not broken. It is not some absurd wallbreaker who just kills and walls everything, it's an extremely reasonable Pokemon outside of its ability.
This is not directed at the Council, but people here.
Do not advocate to Suspect Test Gholdengo in DLC1. Because it's gonna be a like 30% Ban, people are extremely resistant to blaming any problem Gholdengo causes on anything else.
Because Gholdengo in a lot of cases is a good glue, it makes teambuilding easier, so it's easier to like competitively. A lot of the cope is also that we will get more Hazard Removal in DLC2.
You shouldn't advocate for a DLC1 Suspect Test, wait until DLC2, the final meta, and watch the hope drain out of people's eyes as no matter what, Gholdengo will win out.
Wait until Gholdengo has beaten the "only blocks minimal hazard removal distribution" allegations, and I promise you that opinions will start to turn more against it.
Besides, even if it was banned (which would be a very hard thing to get done), it'd definitely get unbanned in DLC2 anyways.
The focus of anyone who wants to get Gholdengo banned should be to setup the argument for DLC2, and argue about how Gholdengo shifts the hazard metagame negatively from a historical perspective, I feel. And how Gholdengo breaks this precedent.
Because by traditional means, Gholdengo is not broken. It is not some absurd wallbreaker who just kills and walls everything, it's an extremely reasonable Pokemon outside of its ability.
I think it may be time to start talking about suspecting Gholdengo. Gliscor's insane viability as a hazard setter is about as drastic as H-Samurott's introduction was. Ribombee is in OU above Garchomp and Garganacl. Not that I'm unhappy to see Cinderace be so viable in a metagame that sorely needs it, but it speaks to how constrained hazard removal is. The crux of this is that Corviknight, the best Defogger in OU, is 100% free setup bait for any Gholdengo set, except maybe the Air Balloon ones who don't wanna get hit just yet. No introductions in DLC or HOME thus far have done anything to ease the strain on this very pivotal matchup, to the point where people have run Mold Breaker Defog Hawlucha and it isn't seen as a complete meme. Genuinely I think that Gliscor might be fine in OU like this if Gholdengo didn't make removing its Spikes so difficult.
why are you laugh reacting me i'm right
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Honestly dude I think we've gotten to a point where everything needs to be banned and it is unhealthy. Gholdengo in my opinion is very valid for the tier but after around a month of this metagame we can see if it is still too good..
so 70% of all teams then?
This meta feels diseased. complete hazard block on one mon is bonkers but the fact we're seeing one freak in particular run back the same gimmick every single game and get 40%+ usage on back to back months is disgusting work man. Shit was funny in the beginning but the constant anarchy is just exhausting. We in big october 2023 and this shit still feels like "i hope i don't see this giga uber 200 billion bst serialkillermon otherwise i get 6-0ed. Lol.
Free GOATcalibur btw
Free GOATcalibur btw
To be fair, a 55% majority is the will of the people. When things fall between 50+1 and a supermajority threshold, we essentially get a hung jury. Most people did not actually support retaining Kingambit. Basically the minority won… again.
I would crawl over broken glass for any kind of action on Tera.
Gholdengo-hazards is an interesting discussion. I am kind of confused by it to be honest. Hazards have long been a part of the game and there are countermeasures (spin and Heavy Duty Boots). Six boots stall is standard. Boots must be an underrated item? There is confidence in just not caring how many turns your opponent wastes in setting. There is also just.. fighting through it. I am not sure why everyone assumes a right to hazard removal or that it should be the default.
Mega Sableye survives its suspect? No prob, we can just ban it right before the generation ends. Dugtrio survives its suspect? Whoops, let's just ban arena trap, there is no sleight of hand here and it's absolutely not undermining the central premise of the original suspect! Melmetal survives its suspect? Test it again. Remember, old gens are "locked" (when we feel like it, plz ignore Gen 4 Latias and Gen 5 Gems but not Gen 8 tradebacks, these are different ok). Kingambit survives its suspect with minority support and a DLC has dropped? We need more data! Maybe Terapagos will counter it! Please stand by while we crunch the numbers here, we don't want to be too hasty...
Is the through line that erroneous suspect results can be ignored if we just wait a bit? We have waited a bit. Is there a specifically defined amount of time?
Is the through line that erroneous suspect results can be ignored if we just wait a bit? We have waited a bit. Is there a specifically defined amount of time?
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I think Ribombee gets a bad rap, honestly. Sure, it's got a route 1 shitmon pedigree, but it's also got stab moonblast off of 124 speed. At 252 investment, it actually chunks a lot of the mons above in in last months' usage, including things like Tusk, Valiant, Roaring Moon, Walking Wake and Sneasler. It also speed-creeps and picks up the OHKO on Meowscarada, and offers a fair bit of damage into anything with a Fairy weakness.
Is it actually top-tier viable? Probably not. But it's a lot better than people give it credit for, too.
You seem to underestimate just how much damage is racked up on hazards. Looking at even neutral damage, you're losing about a quarter of your health every time you switch in, and are badly poisoned atop of that. That is enough to make even powerful tanks feel the burn, and Gholdengo is pointedly immune to all the common methods of removing it outside of Court Change, which while good still means you're forced to run Cinderace on every team. And no, Heavy-Duty Boots are not an option, because there are a lot of items, many of which Pokemon would have much greater use out of.
As I've said, people really underestimate Ribombee. It's a really solid little lass.
There is no possible funnier response for this I could make other than putting these two sentences side by side.
I've got nothing against Ribombee, but historically this is a mon whose success has peaked in RU. The fact that it is a consistently good part of OU for its utility as a Sticky Web setter isn't something that would have been possible for it in generations where hazard removal isn't so centralized and Gholdengo isn't a factor. Its presence in OU now has to speak to something about the huge buff hazards have gotten, and I just mention it as part of that larger point.
I am acutely aware of how much damage is racked up with hazards. I am also aware that HDB are one of the best items in the game and 6 boots stall is standard. We all know hazards are a thing going right into the builder. There are spinners (Tusk beats Dhengo point blank unless it Teras which is another reason to dump the mechanic), Boots, Defog, abilities (Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Levitate), or just… fighting through it. Other than Ceaseless Edge, laying hazard costs a turn each time. All of these are at your disposal.
While I would love to see the promise itself, I think i'd be fine with Volc just dropping with DLC 2. Unless you're hella into the Gambit mirror match in the endgame, Volc is a great answer. It goes well into Valiant, and depending on what tera you pick, it beats itself. Whaddya say?
Hey, you cant claim that thats my title.
In all seriousness, I totally agree. While its clear that hazards is an issue, probably the biggest issue facing OU, I think we wont have a complete answer to this until we know what DLC2 holds.
I have no idea what that means now though in terms of any action being taken. Do we just exist in a flawed metagame until we get all the tools for the gen? Not a fan of what dlc does to the metagame.
I did though
You write so pompously dismissing the opinions of literally hundreds of people out of hand because you don't like what they have to say. Oh those are just the wrong people, my bad! This isn't in support of some minority position - most voters wanted Gambit gone and are told to pound sand. The "weight of the suspect test" you so dearly hold in high regard says that most voters wanted it gone; you rebut your own position.
For starters, comparing councils of past generations to now is a silly concept Negative Charge -- we instituted surveys so more transparency and community involvement would be had. The council used to decide on bans without much public insight and suspects almost entirely internally, but now that could not be further from the case. In addition, the council has >90% turnover when compared to the timing of all of these, so even if the process was the same, this would be entirely moot.
With that said, even if you disregard this, your comparisons do not check out at all. Your posts read like one of those fear-mongerers on twitter and your relationship with factual info about tiering history and making apt comparisons is about as on-and-off as OU's relationship with Weavile these last few generations.
You are simply asking for us to quickban something or suspect it without community support, which would be power abuse. We did this with Volcarona and the community revolted. It was a mistake. My job is to lead the community's metagame, not some random OU forum poster's fantasy metagame.
This is easily one of the worst posts and tirades I have ever seen in this thread -- and there have been a lot of bad ones. Stop posting and lurk more. Please. You can make genuinely good contributions. I know you’re passionate. I respect and appreciate that. But this approach is just continuous slaps in the face of authority for the sake of doing it.
With that said, even if you disregard this, your comparisons do not check out at all. Your posts read like one of those fear-mongerers on twitter and your relationship with factual info about tiering history and making apt comparisons is about as on-and-off as OU's relationship with Weavile these last few generations.
Mega sableye was banned via public suspect test. There was 10 months between its first test and its second. Its first test was alongside Shadow Tag. Comparing this to Kingambit is wildly incorrect. We have already put Kingambit on the radar within 2-3 months and, if it got survey support, it would have been eligible for a suspect.
You are simply asking for us to quickban something or suspect it without community support, which would be power abuse. We did this with Volcarona and the community revolted. It was a mistake. My job is to lead the community's metagame, not some random OU forum poster's fantasy metagame.
Again: many months later, council is >90% different then than now, and the first suspect should have been Arena Trap, but there was not yet a community discussion on the ability. The culture and philosophy then was so different as it was over six years ago. Do you want us to never progress? Do you want us to make the same mistakes? That is the only possible genuine conclusion I get out of these comparisons because otherwise they are just uniniformed and, quite frankly, garbage.
Melmetal was suspected to be unbanned once. It was not. It was dropped to OU with a major release and suspected to be banned later -- over a year-and-a-half later after multiple DLCs. This is so incomparable. I do not even fully believe you paid attention to what has happened and I am starting to think you are just spouting things for the sake of spouting them.
Neither of these have anything to do with the OU tiering council. I am not even going to get into how silly this is because it literally is not our jurisdiction.
We do not need more data. We have the data. It did not get enough support -- it was not even close.
This is easily one of the worst posts and tirades I have ever seen in this thread -- and there have been a lot of bad ones. Stop posting and lurk more. Please. You can make genuinely good contributions. I know you’re passionate. I respect and appreciate that. But this approach is just continuous slaps in the face of authority for the sake of doing it.
yay I get to respond here with plenty of people looking
What shiloh means with “locked tiers” is you play on cart, in the latest edition of the game before the next “generation” came out
therefore, your arguement about DPP Latias and Gems in BW are completely irrevelant, but what a minute…
You KNEW that this was true, you just want to use it when it benefits YOU. I personally that the old gens Tiering system is flawed, but I don’t lie about it to myself to try to convince people I’m right about something.
I just wanted to pointed this out as the dumbest thing I have seen on this thread (really hard feat btw) and I will let you go on your blind rampage
Reminder that no one thought Blood Moon was a prime threat on the first days of the meta prior to the suspect, that it was the third mon in votes seeing it as a threat in the most recent survey below Heat-pon and Manaphy, and that the dedicated thread to talk about Blood Moon specifically and individually had the majority of users on it be dubious on if it would even stay on OU (some arguing it was worse than normal Ursa).
It was during the suspect that people started to use it more, more sets that covered each other where discovered, and it took over the meta with ludicrous things including the Grassy Seed Tera Poison set.
This whole hindsight brilliance that some people have been having since AFTER seeing the discussion on the suspect post and voting that followed is hardy helpful.
As for Kingambit, I don't know about ypu, but where I come from, we call a 45~55% percent majority/minority "lack of consensus", and not enough in either way to make significant changes to the status quo. A change to the Constitution of most modern countries, per example, usually requires a 60 or 67% majority on most modern democracies. This is partially due to how volatile these majorities are; what today is a 54% majority for ban, tomorrow may be a 49% minority. Should we be running surveys every day on Kingambit and re-vote and re-decide what to do with it each time the number dances around 50%? Or should we raise the bar to, say, 60% so that we KNOW it's a stable, sensible, supported decision? I think the answer is obvious.
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I think the Gholdengo-Hazards discussion is too complicated to be properly treated in the short term that this meta allows us and should be left for after DLC2, probably after Tera discussions given how that'll be most likely the priority given its impact.
A suspect on Gliscor, on the other hand, could work to minimize the effect of hazards temporarily right now while causing less conflict on the long term. Would most certainly get released back into OU after DLC2 as we get to discuss on the root problem in depth, while still moving towards a better meta today. I think it would be a decent middle-point to walk through the predicament that is the current meta.
i speak for everyone when i say the Gambit public enemy number one gimmick is horribly washed.
at least with bax there was novelty involved with the crazy loaded dice scale shot spam. we've been playing these + 2 billion tera dark black glasses sucker punch mind games before fucking chatgpt even existed. Soon some of yall will be in the senior home trying to give your grandchildren advice on how to OHKO this obese fuck once the shit tera fairys.
free that scrub Giratina o while were at it. 150 base hp in this economy not even that hefty and every fogger gets fried by gholdengo. Lol
real talk tho meta is dogshit and gambit is without a doubt broken idk how you can even argue it's not. Looking at the usage stats alone it's clear this thing has a chokehold on teambuilding. Unless having 40%+ usage while running the same fucking gimmick everytime is healthy. in which case lets just stop giving a damn about balance and turn this shit into Ubers Jr. We'll be enjoying ourselves at least.
Lol.
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Why do you think this is standard when things like Leftovers exist? All seriousness, Tusk and the half-count of Cinderace are the only things that beat Gholdengo, remove hazards, and can meaningfully contribute to an OU team beyond that role. Defog DOES NOT WORK RELIABLY in a Gholdengo metagame, which is the exact point being mad, Magic Bounce is a deterrent more than removal, Magic Guard is on exactly 1 Family (OU viable or otherwise) in SV, and fighting through it results in mons that barely survive 3 switch-ins even if they literally don't get hit at all.
It's easily to list the methods, but their practicality is the part calling Gholdengo's health into question.
Isn't 6 Boot stall an adaptation to hazard removal being so weak this gen?
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