Or the removers don't fit on stall. Again, why is running HBD a problem?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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Or the removers don't fit on stall. Again, why is running HBD a problem?
Corviknight fits perfectly into stall. Mandibuzz is another great pick. Iron Treads can be used. Doesn't seem to be helping much.
Simplifying statements like these doesn't really help. The problem isn't "running HDB". It's "not being able to run any item other than HDB because hazard removal is too difficult to justify using anything else".
i agree with you except for calling gambit a gimmick. we spoke a few pages back about gimmicks being high risk high reward. Theres zero risk to putting gambit on your team, zero opportunity cost. Its cheap and every team has to run 1 answer to standard set and 1 answer to its potential tera otherwise its sits in the back and wins. No pokemon should constrict teambuilding that much.
Thats why when i hear complaints about gliscor, tusk is doing like 60%+ with ice spinner, thats 1 sub optimal move on 1 pokemon thats already good. for gambit you're always running an entire teamslot for it minimum.
I disagree, Knock off is a 93% of 2HKO and outside of the first knock its too weak to treaten gholdengo
ENTER
Mandibuzz @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Overcoat
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Bone Rush
- Knock Off
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tera Ground Mandibuzz: 343-405 (81 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Ground Mandibuzz Bone Rush (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 310-370 (98.4 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Fun Fact: this thing has Weak Armor and Nasty Plot, so if somebody wants to drop 4000 elo, I suggest you could try this with Psyspam
+2 252+ SpA Tera Ground Mandibuzz Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 360-426 (95.2 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah uh, not good, I can see it working but with a lot of mental gymnastics
Mandibuzz is trash. She was OU for a while in Gen 6 and again in Gen 8 to check big broken Aegislash and broken Urshifu-Single Strike and Spectrier, but then she promptly dropped back to the low tiers where she belonged. Now, she doesn't even check Gholdengo since Gholdengo walls her, making her pure garbage. There is 0 reason to use Mandi when you can use mons that actually do something.
I actually do think that the value of Ribombee is way higher than it was last gen, just because of which newly added mons it has a solid matchup against. All of the mons I listed are new to the gen, viable-to-strong in OU, and a clean one shot (or damn close to it).
Sometimes, a new environment is all it takes.
heavy booty doots?
Just wondering out there, does anyone else feel like 
becomes more and more annoying every day that passes? I'm starting to wonder if it really was a good idea to let it drop at all.
It really is a very strange mon to call "balanced", it does do poorly vs bulkier teams but it is outright unfair in certain circumstances against more offensively oriented teams, not only is it too fast (you don't need that many EVs to outspeed up to Jolly Meowscarada) but it is also way too bulky, and the bulk problem just becomes worse when its goal is to further boost its Defense and can even make use of the 'fun' mechanic to completely revert its weaknesses and avoid any attempt of revenge killing, it is insanely difficult to handle not only for that, but because it always feels like it's exactly one coverage move or lucky Defense drop from Crunch away from blasting through your splashable checks.
For instance, some have been running Stone Edge lately, that make previous "answers" such as
, 
or 
into cannon fodder, Zap gets 2HKOed if it hard switches into it, even without SE, can easily get past with Tera Fire, boost its Defense until Body Press does enough damage and dodge all burns attempts, and let's not even get into the variants that carry Substitute, which while they do lose one precious coverage moveslot, behind a sub dodges every status attempt (such as Toxic from 
, who then can't do jack as it can't even break its Sub quickly and gets swiftly overwhelmed). While Heavy Slam is not as common as it was, it does wreck Iron Valiant, who can't even pretend to do anything against you if you just Tera Fire, the only times I ever beat a Zama with Valiant were those times I hard switched into it as it setup to Encore it, but even then they just need to switch out and come back later.
While I don't think it is as problematic as say,
, I do think it's very close in terms of just forcing wins during the endgame thanks to its absurd stat spread. I think one big reason it even dropped at all was because back then 
was a real mon and wasn't utterly outclassed or anything like that, same with stuff like 
that just got so much worse with the recent additions, which only benefits even more, it also really likes the current 
dominance, as it matches fantastically vs them as well (unless they carry Encore and predict a boost or w/e)
becomes more and more annoying every day that passes? I'm starting to wonder if it really was a good idea to let it drop at all.It really is a very strange mon to call "balanced", it does do poorly vs bulkier teams but it is outright unfair in certain circumstances against more offensively oriented teams, not only is it too fast (you don't need that many EVs to outspeed up to Jolly Meowscarada) but it is also way too bulky, and the bulk problem just becomes worse when its goal is to further boost its Defense and can even make use of the 'fun' mechanic to completely revert its weaknesses and avoid any attempt of revenge killing, it is insanely difficult to handle not only for that, but because it always feels like it's exactly one coverage move or lucky Defense drop from Crunch away from blasting through your splashable checks.
For instance, some have been running Stone Edge lately, that make previous "answers" such as
, or into cannon fodder, Zap gets 2HKOed if it hard switches into it, even without SE, can easily get past with Tera Fire, boost its Defense until Body Press does enough damage and dodge all burns attempts, and let's not even get into the variants that carry Substitute, which while they do lose one precious coverage moveslot, behind a sub dodges every status attempt (such as Toxic from , who then can't do jack as it can't even break its Sub quickly and gets swiftly overwhelmed). While Heavy Slam is not as common as it was, it does wreck Iron Valiant, who can't even pretend to do anything against you if you just Tera Fire, the only times I ever beat a Zama with Valiant were those times I hard switched into it as it setup to Encore it, but even then they just need to switch out and come back later.While I don't think it is as problematic as say,
, I do think it's very close in terms of just forcing wins during the endgame thanks to its absurd stat spread. I think one big reason it even dropped at all was because back then was a real mon and wasn't utterly outclassed or anything like that, same with stuff like that just got so much worse with the recent additions, which only benefits even more, it also really likes the current dominance, as it matches fantastically vs them as well (unless they carry Encore and predict a boost or w/e)
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This is a pokemon that really falls victim to 4mss. Choice band variants can be scary but obviously exploitable like all choice pokemon.Just wondering out there, does anyone else feel like
It really is a very strange mon to call "balanced", it does do poorly vs bulkier teams but it is outright unfair in certain circumstances against more offensively oriented teams, not only is it too fast (you don't need that many EVs to outspeed up to Jolly Meowscarada) but it is also way too bulky, and the bulk problem just becomes worse when its goal is to further boost its Defense and can even make use of the 'fun' mechanic to completely revert its weaknesses and avoid any attempt of revenge killing, it is insanely difficult to handle not only for that, but because it always feels like it's exactly one coverage move or lucky Defense drop from Crunch away from blasting through your splashable checks.
For instance, some have been running Stone Edge lately, that make previous "answers" such as
While I don't think it is as problemaic as say...
If its an ironpress set, you have 2 slots left. Without crunch you lose to glowking and gholdengo. Without stone edge you lose to moltres. Without sub you lose to clodsires toxic. Without heavy slam you can't beat valiant. Leftovers sets get creamed by toxic spikes, which I don't see too much anymore despite clodsire and toxapex supposedly "falling off" (less poison types to suck them up). I used to think it was broken when it first dropped but I always carry an unaware mon these days to stop iron moth/cm valiant and they can usually handle zamazenta too
one of the best tour teams rn from what I’ve seen is using ID mandibuzz and milotic, it’s definitely not a trash mon
Alright, so… Since the zombie cyborg cocaine bear has been banned the meta has stabilized a bit, (defensive) Gliscor’s a pain in the ass for a lot of people, Webs have gotten real popular and Kingambit is up to the same shit it has always been doing. Although things are kind of same-y at the moment…
Because of that, I’d like to introduce an anti-meta strategy suggested by spiderkitty410 on Pokémon Showdown’s OU Room for Gliscor that’s fittingly unhinged (and horrifyingly effective) for the month of October and Halloween coming up soon:
- You might be asking yourself “what does a Double Dance set for the flagship member of this team even do compared to other physical setup sweepers”? Well…
For EVs and natures, 64 HP for extra bulk, 252 Adamant Attack for more potency and 192 into Speed to blitz Booster Iron Valiants, Booster Iron Moths and Scarf Enamorus after a single agility.
Of course, this variant of Gliscor still has trouble with Dondozo and Unaware Clefable, but that’s what its other teammates are there for!
- Stall teams absolutely hate dealing with this thing. Dondozo gets Shadow Ball’d to death, Blissey doesn’t too much against it, Clefable really doesn’t like taking a Make It Rain to the face and even Ting-Lu is annoyed by it if using Focus Blast. Helps that any opposing (defensive) Gliscor running just Earthquake is checked well by Air Balloon Gholdengo. Try to preserve it in Clefable matchups though, cause Unaware Clefable can just run away with games against this team. Also takes Ice Beams in a pinch for Gliscor and can even gimp Kingambit with Focus Blast if needed.
- Another pain in the ass for stall teams that forces Dondozo to waste the team Tera on Tera Dragon, breaks Toxapex with Power Whip after a single Swords Dance, nukes a ton with Ivy Cudgel and removes all of the items with Knock Off. Blissey gets completely fodderized by it and offense would rather not be chunked down by it either. Kills opposing Gliscors easily too, which is a bonus.
- Stall also hates this thing, especially because of Encore turning Blissey, Dondozo and badly played Clefables into setup fodder. Also serves as another great revenge killer for handling Kingambit, opposing Valiants and other metagame threats.
- You know what this thing does. Bullshit reverse sweeps with Supreme Overlord and Sucker Punch. The Bulky set with Tera Fairy invalidates Fighting types as per usual.
- The screens setter. Helps against opposing Gliscor, nails Waterpon, Encore is annoying, Hypnosis can be used over Moonblast for crippling any unsuspecting Cinderace, not much else to say here.
I’ve even got a bunch of replays for the team!
Although it’s impressive how potent this is, there are some problems I’ve ran into while running this team:
- Unaware sets (whether Stored Power or Calm Mind) can put this team in a chokehold if you don’t play right. Iron Moth in place of Iron Valiant or Gholdengo can alleviate this, but once Clefable gets going it’s gonna be hard to stop.
- No Physical attacker that isn’t a super-effective nuke or Mold Breaker user hates dealing with this thing, same goes for Double Dance Gliscor. Its teammates cover for it, but make sure Dondozo’s team doesn’t wear all your counters to it down before they can do anything.
+ 
- If not running an Max Def set, Iron Defense/Bulk Up set OR Rocky Helmet set, Gliscor uses it as setup fodder. If it’s using any of those sets I just mentioned, then Gliscor is worn down quite a bit by it or even outright hard-walled. Again, rest of the team handles it well so not that big of an issue.
-
+ 
- This duo in is annoying to deal with overall unless you go Tera Water on Gliscor. Cinderace takes away screens for itself and Gholdengo clicks Make It Rain to chunk Gliscor down. I’d say before trying to set up a sweep with Gliscor you should try to pop Ghold’s Air Balloon, cripple/eliminate Cinderace and try to proc Toxic Orb as quickly as possible to avoid Will-O-Wisp burns. Gliscor can come back in later anyways to set up as it can afford switching in multiple times. Maybe even Tera Water your Ninetales-A to resist the Fire+Steel STAB spam if you need to.
/
+ 
+ 
+ 
+ + 
- Rain teams are almost a hard-counter to this team if your Waterpon dies early. The only way of beating them otherwise is by using Tera-Flying on Gliscor and getting 2 free turns to use Agility so you can hopefully outspeed Floatzel and kill it (Although Zapdos can casually revenge-kill at this point).
- For pretty much all of the same reasons as Rain.
I also suggest not being reckless with setting up on Ribombee before Gliscor’s Toxic Orb activates. Ribombee can use Stun Spore to ruin your potential sweep. And likewise with other Screens/Hazard based Hyper Offense teams, try to be careful playing around Cinderace as it can easily just steal your Screens away and force your own hazards onto you. Gliscor being on your team alleviates Rocks and Spikes being switched to your side alot as mentioned earlier, but the rest of the team still doesn’t like taking hazard damage and Screens being swapped to your opponent always sucks.
But yeah, Double Dance Gliscor is legitimately scary-good HEAT. It really shouldn’t work as well as it does, but regardless it still does. I’m probably heading to bed now, so have a gn and have fun with some offensive ScorSweeps!
Because of that, I’d like to introduce an anti-meta strategy suggested by spiderkitty410 on Pokémon Showdown’s OU Room for Gliscor that’s fittingly unhinged (and horrifyingly effective) for the month of October and Halloween coming up soon:
- You might be asking yourself “what does a Double Dance set for the flagship member of this team even do compared to other physical setup sweepers”? Well…- Thanks to Poison Heal and its Ground/Flying typing, it ignores Sticky Web AND the both of Spikes and Stealth Rock. This allows it to easily claim more opportunities to switch in and set up. So even if opting for Glimmora instead of Ninetales-A, Gliscor doesn’t care about Cinderace attempting to turn the tables against it.
- Gliscor has an amazing defensive profile with great overall bulk, one of the best defensive typings in the game and Poison Heal to give it great passive recovery AND pseudo-status immunity at the same time. This benefits it quite a lot offensively (especially behind screens) as it’s scarily hard to kill after setting up, Will-O-Wisp and Paralysis do nothing to cripple it after it triggers Toxic Orb and the only priority capable of reliably dealing with it is Ice Shard. After Tera Flying, this becomes less of a problem for Gliscor and even more of a problem for your opponent.
- Ground/Flying is an extremely potent STAB combination using both Earthquake and even Dual Wingbeat, which becomes terrifying after activating Tera Flying. The only things it can’t hit for at least neutral damage are the the Steel/Flyings and Electric (or Steel) + Levitate users. Dual Wingbeat also helps in breaking through Substitute, Focus Sash, Dragonite’s Multiscale and Ogerpon-Cornerstone’s Sturdy to force KOs easier.
- You could even opt for Tera Water to transform your weaknesses to Ice and Water into resists and become a complete headache for the two people who realized Weavile is actually kinda solid in OU and wanted to try it out for pressuring the usual defensive Gliscor.
- And of course, the element of surprise thrives with this set. Misplays are much easier to force your opponent to make as the most common Gliscor variants they will be trying to play around are the defensive ones. This commonly generates a free turn or two for Gliscor to set up a Swords Dance and Agility to start getting to work.
For EVs and natures, 64 HP for extra bulk, 252 Adamant Attack for more potency and 192 into Speed to blitz Booster Iron Valiants, Booster Iron Moths and Scarf Enamorus after a single agility.
VS Dragonite:
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 181-216 (50.4 - 60.1%) -- approx. 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 121-143 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 162-191 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
VS Ogerpon-Cornerstone:
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- approx. 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Power Whip vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 184-217 (59.9 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Gliscor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 356-420 (118.2 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Power Whip vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Gliscor: 92-108 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 1.7% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
VS Air Balloon Gholdengo:
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 120-144 (38 - 45.7%) -- approx. 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 253-298 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: lol (Guaranteed OHKO)
VS Kingambit:
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 192-226 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
That’s right. Even without Screens getting in its way, a Black Glasses maximum Supreme Overlord boosted Sucker Punch can’t reliably revenge-kill Gliscor.
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Gliscor Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Gliscor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 268-316 (67 - 79%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not even by bullshitting its way into becoming a bird can bulky Kingambit avoid a 2HKO from a well-predicted Gliscor.
Keep in mind that Gliscor’s defensive feats are boosted even further by Aurora Veil, making it even harder to kill.
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 181-216 (50.4 - 60.1%) -- approx. 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 121-143 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 162-191 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
VS Ogerpon-Cornerstone:
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- approx. 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Power Whip vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 184-217 (59.9 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Gliscor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 356-420 (118.2 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Power Whip vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Gliscor: 92-108 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 1.7% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
VS Air Balloon Gholdengo:
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 120-144 (38 - 45.7%) -- approx. 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 253-298 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: lol (Guaranteed OHKO)
VS Kingambit:
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 192-226 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
That’s right. Even without Screens getting in its way, a Black Glasses maximum Supreme Overlord boosted Sucker Punch can’t reliably revenge-kill Gliscor.
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Gliscor Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Gliscor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 268-316 (67 - 79%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not even by bullshitting its way into becoming a bird can bulky Kingambit avoid a 2HKO from a well-predicted Gliscor.
Keep in mind that Gliscor’s defensive feats are boosted even further by Aurora Veil, making it even harder to kill.
Of course, this variant of Gliscor still has trouble with Dondozo and Unaware Clefable, but that’s what its other teammates are there for!
- Stall teams absolutely hate dealing with this thing. Dondozo gets Shadow Ball’d to death, Blissey doesn’t too much against it, Clefable really doesn’t like taking a Make It Rain to the face and even Ting-Lu is annoyed by it if using Focus Blast. Helps that any opposing (defensive) Gliscor running just Earthquake is checked well by Air Balloon Gholdengo. Try to preserve it in Clefable matchups though, cause Unaware Clefable can just run away with games against this team. Also takes Ice Beams in a pinch for Gliscor and can even gimp Kingambit with Focus Blast if needed. - Another pain in the ass for stall teams that forces Dondozo to waste the team Tera on Tera Dragon, breaks Toxapex with Power Whip after a single Swords Dance, nukes a ton with Ivy Cudgel and removes all of the items with Knock Off. Blissey gets completely fodderized by it and offense would rather not be chunked down by it either. Kills opposing Gliscors easily too, which is a bonus. - Stall also hates this thing, especially because of Encore turning Blissey, Dondozo and badly played Clefables into setup fodder. Also serves as another great revenge killer for handling Kingambit, opposing Valiants and other metagame threats. - You know what this thing does. Bullshit reverse sweeps with Supreme Overlord and Sucker Punch. The Bulky set with Tera Fairy invalidates Fighting types as per usual. - The screens setter. Helps against opposing Gliscor, nails Waterpon, Encore is annoying, Hypnosis can be used over Moonblast for crippling any unsuspecting Cinderace, not much else to say here.I’ve even got a bunch of replays for the team!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1962308351-ttc6bgq2nydj2prgfualwvgan23p371pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1963605412
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen9ou-1963781598-4ra3fupzf85smsdaob1mmcj0myqol8apw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1964244746
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1964698170
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1964719200
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1963605412
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen9ou-1963781598-4ra3fupzf85smsdaob1mmcj0myqol8apw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1964244746
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1964698170
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1964719200
Although it’s impressive how potent this is, there are some problems I’ve ran into while running this team:
- Unaware sets (whether Stored Power or Calm Mind) can put this team in a chokehold if you don’t play right. Iron Moth in place of Iron Valiant or Gholdengo can alleviate this, but once Clefable gets going it’s gonna be hard to stop. - No Physical attacker that isn’t a super-effective nuke or Mold Breaker user hates dealing with this thing, same goes for Double Dance Gliscor. Its teammates cover for it, but make sure Dondozo’s team doesn’t wear all your counters to it down before they can do anything. + - If not running an Max Def set, Iron Defense/Bulk Up set OR Rocky Helmet set, Gliscor uses it as setup fodder. If it’s using any of those sets I just mentioned, then Gliscor is worn down quite a bit by it or even outright hard-walled. Again, rest of the team handles it well so not that big of an issue.- + - This duo in is annoying to deal with overall unless you go Tera Water on Gliscor. Cinderace takes away screens for itself and Gholdengo clicks Make It Rain to chunk Gliscor down. I’d say before trying to set up a sweep with Gliscor you should try to pop Ghold’s Air Balloon, cripple/eliminate Cinderace and try to proc Toxic Orb as quickly as possible to avoid Will-O-Wisp burns. Gliscor can come back in later anyways to set up as it can afford switching in multiple times. Maybe even Tera Water your Ninetales-A to resist the Fire+Steel STAB spam if you need to./ + + + + + - Rain teams are almost a hard-counter to this team if your Waterpon dies early. The only way of beating them otherwise is by using Tera-Flying on Gliscor and getting 2 free turns to use Agility so you can hopefully outspeed Floatzel and kill it (Although Zapdos can casually revenge-kill at this point). - For pretty much all of the same reasons as Rain.I also suggest not being reckless with setting up on Ribombee before Gliscor’s Toxic Orb activates. Ribombee can use Stun Spore to ruin your potential sweep. And likewise with other Screens/Hazard based Hyper Offense teams, try to be careful playing around Cinderace as it can easily just steal your Screens away and force your own hazards onto you. Gliscor being on your team alleviates Rocks and Spikes being switched to your side alot as mentioned earlier, but the rest of the team still doesn’t like taking hazard damage and Screens being swapped to your opponent always sucks.
But yeah, Double Dance Gliscor is legitimately scary-good HEAT. It really shouldn’t work as well as it does, but regardless it still does. I’m probably heading to bed now, so have a gn and have fun with some offensive ScorSweeps!
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Yeah. Its hard for me to call Zamazenta broken since it has massive 4MSS and pretty clear cut Pokemon that stop it, namely Gholdengo, Zapdos, ID Corv, and the like, but it certainly does feel pretty damn cheap. The fact that it outstats most of the tier lets it sweep vs a decent number of teams with little effort. Insane speed and bulk, further augmented by Veil and a potential Tera make it really difficult to revenge kill. As you mentioned, the meta has shifted away from several Pokemon that kept it in check like Toxapex, Helmet Lando-T, Glowking, and Enamorus, which makes its ID + BP shenanigans even more potent. That being said, I've seen other mons like Ninetales, and Hat rise up, which can be annoying for Zama. Still, it can tech Heavy Slam or whatever. Not without any oppurtunity cost, mind you, but actually dealing with it consistently is difficult without a mon like Gholdengo (which is susceptible to crunch def drops).Just wondering out there, does anyone else feel like
It really is a very strange mon to call "balanced", it does do poorly vs bulkier teams but it is outright unfair in certain circumstances against more offensively oriented teams, not only is it too fast (you don't need that many EVs to outspeed up to Jolly Meowscarada) but it is also way too bulky, and the bulk problem just becomes worse when its goal is to further boost its Defense and can even make use of the 'fun' mechanic to completely revert its weaknesses and avoid any attempt of revenge killing, it is insanely difficult to handle not only for that, but because it always feels like it's exactly one coverage move or lucky Defense drop from Crunch away from blasting through your splashable checks.
For instance, some have been running Stone Edge lately, that make previous "answers" such as
While I don't think it is as problematic as say,
This Pokemon's win condition is just a bit too easy and unlike other Pokemon like Corv, outspeeding it is not an option because its a top 3 mon in speed. Its 1v1 matchups vs most of the top threats like Cinderace, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Ogerpon, and the like is incredibly skewed in its favor, and other MUs like vs Valiant or Iron Moth aren't exactly total losses either, as Zama can use its speed to f over those guys too.
All that said, I still wouldn't ban / suspect Zama at this stage because its utility as a Kingambit and Ogerpon check cannot be undersold and its 4MSS makes it fine for slower teams to deal with. That being said, I think it is telling that most of the PS randos I've battled with (which are fairly good at the game might I add) want this mon gone more than others like Ogerpon and Kingambit, mostly coming down to how much it outstats the rest of the tier.
Now I’d like to add a couple more things about zama that have been left out so far. First of all, it’s in the same class as booster energy mons where if it switches out it becomes worse at checking or completely unable to check certain threats due to its nerfs. Second is the blessing in disguise that comes with 4mss: set versatility. Zama actually has access to 3 sets that are at the very least solid: ID (with the choice of sub or swapping out coverage), choice band (which does face heavy 4mss), and howl (which faces the same issue, however can potentially muscle it’s way through aware checks that underspeed it).
It also has the speed to run adamant on its more immediately offensive sets, just in case your team has the tools to deal with the mons that it loses out on outspeeding without the boosting nature.
my man who runs howl
I see alot of zama and ive never seen thatIt’s not a very common option but it has the optionmy man who runs howl
I'd like to put a spotlight on arboliva. I dont think I've ever seen this pokemon considered for OU, even at release, however let me make a case for its usefulness in the absence of other bulky grass types *cough* 
*cough*. Almost all sets use seed sower. Its a cool ability, not bad, but rillaboom does grassy terrain better, and since this isnt an offensive set that can outdamage the recovery, giving the opponent passive healing isnt helpful either.
In which case i present Harvest Arboliva
Ahem wrong one sorry.
@ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
Tera Type: water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed/ substitute
- Strength Sap
- Hyper Voice/ energy ball
- Earth Power
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 143-168 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 169-201 (46.9 - 55.8%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 181-214 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva in Rain: 168-198 (46.6 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
(Calculator doesnt know how to factor in berries, these are never a 2hko)
Normal typing doesnt do us much favours here, aisde from ghost immunity, ie poltergeist. without it youd take on zamazenta but alas. strength sap is the biggest part of this set as it pushes these pokemon well out of ko range and buys extra turns for harvest to kick in. leech seed allows you to 1v1 gliscor. Earth power smacks kingambit for 55% and can hit gholdengo in a pinch although thats not a favourable matchup. Hyper voice is interesting as i see a lot of substitute in this meta and it deals a lot of damage through sub. Energy ball is an alternative if youd rather break subs than hit through them, but its not ideal, hyper voice hits most things harder.
Yes i only saved one replay. I'm busy and lazy, but this isnt a rare occurence, you can take my word for it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1964830671
not an A rank pokemon by any means but certainly has a place in OU VR for the time being
*cough*. Almost all sets use seed sower. Its a cool ability, not bad, but rillaboom does grassy terrain better, and since this isnt an offensive set that can outdamage the recovery, giving the opponent passive healing isnt helpful either.In which case i present Harvest Arboliva
Ahem wrong one sorry.
@ Sitrus Berry Ability: Harvest
Tera Type: water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed/ substitute
- Strength Sap
- Hyper Voice/ energy ball
- Earth Power
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 143-168 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 169-201 (46.9 - 55.8%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 181-214 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva in Rain: 168-198 (46.6 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
(Calculator doesnt know how to factor in berries, these are never a 2hko)
Normal typing doesnt do us much favours here, aisde from ghost immunity, ie poltergeist. without it youd take on zamazenta but alas. strength sap is the biggest part of this set as it pushes these pokemon well out of ko range and buys extra turns for harvest to kick in. leech seed allows you to 1v1 gliscor. Earth power smacks kingambit for 55% and can hit gholdengo in a pinch although thats not a favourable matchup. Hyper voice is interesting as i see a lot of substitute in this meta and it deals a lot of damage through sub. Energy ball is an alternative if youd rather break subs than hit through them, but its not ideal, hyper voice hits most things harder.
Yes i only saved one replay. I'm busy and lazy, but this isnt a rare occurence, you can take my word for it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1964830671
not an A rank pokemon by any means but certainly has a place in OU VR for the time being
Attachments
I'd like to put a spotlight on arboliva. I dont think I've ever seen this pokemon considered for OU, even at release, however let me make a case for its usefulness in the absence of other bulky grass types *cough*
In which case i present Harvest Arboliva
View attachment 560445
Ahem wrong one sorry.
Ability: Harvest
Tera Type: water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed/ substitute
- Strength Sap
- Hyper Voice/ energy ball
- Earth Power
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 143-168 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 169-201 (46.9 - 55.8%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva: 181-214 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arboliva in Rain: 168-198 (46.6 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
(Calculator doesnt know how to factor in berries, these are never a 2hko)
Normal typing doesnt do us much favours here, aisde from ghost immunity, ie poltergeist. without it youd take on zamazenta but alas. strength sap is the biggest part of this set as it pushes these pokemon well out of ko range and buys extra turns for harvest to kick in. leech seed allows you to 1v1 gliscor. Earth power smacks kingambit for 55% and can hit gholdengo in a pinch although thats not a favourable matchup. Hyper voice is interesting as i see a lot of substitute in this meta and it deals a lot of damage through sub. Energy ball is an alternative if youd rather break subs than hit through them, but its not ideal, hyper voice hits most things harder.
Yes i only saved one replay. I'm busy and lazy, but this isnt a rare occurence, you can take my word for it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1964830671
not an A rank pokemon by any means but certainly has a place in OU VR for the time being
Can't see this being reliable vs Gambit at all, but checking Waterpon and some Rains should give it a niche. Only problem is being extremely weak to Knock Off.
I don't see it being that weak to Knock Off. Even in Gen 8 it almost never ran HDB so unless you are running the Assault Vest set it can take it without too many issues
Its not my first gambit answer, most teams have more than one. gambit is broken yada yada i digress. but in a pinch it can hold its own, thats all i was saying. defensive grass types are pretty useful atm. Also works against rillaboom, samurott-H, defensive tusk, non boosting corviknight etc.
I'm curious what people are looking for re: hazard removal and hazard interactions in general. Like, are people needing a meta where you have the option of running a 100% chance to remove all hazards? You have that today, you just have to pick the mons that do that. Yeah, we're in a new era where there is a defog block but guess what we do have tidy up, we have court change, and we have moldbreaker/toxic gas. Let's pretend for a sec that ghold was just pure steel, and couldn't spinblock. Would it still have people up in arms? I think it would, and that brings my real question: why was defog so important, why was rapid spin so inadequate? Why is it a good thing for the meta that somebody can spend one turn to undo their opponent's billion turns of hazard setup?
The string cheese man is on a third of teams. Everyone has to prepare for things that are in the top 10, but it feels like what people are doing instead is asking to ban just about anything that ever finds its way into the top ten. We are in a place where if somebody points out counterplay for X threat, people go "so I have to run that one mon on every team?!" (cinder) If you point out a lower tier mon that could help with a particular high-usage threat, people go "shitmons in OU means that you should ban!" (quaq, scizor, treads, bramble, gweez, mandibuzz, maus, cyclizar) How long does the list of OU viable or HEAT-esque mons for each high usage mon have to be before things go from "OMG ban yesterday pls" to "of course you have to prep for this top ten mon"? Five mons? Ten? All of OU? Right now, the sentiment seems tilted a lot more towards "all of OU has to be able to deal with __ top threat or it should be banned" than towards "let's cook." And IDK, that seems kind of sad from a teambuilding and spectating perspective. If we keep down this road, we'll end up banning hazards altogether and land in a regen core meta, which cmon, you know isn't where you want to be. We've got a pretty decent list of mons and strats that can be used to deal with hazards, things aren't as dire as people are making them out to be.
Alright, go ahead, "haha" away. But if you do, can you please explain what kind of meta you are looking for in terms of hazards? If you were in charge of design for the pokemon company, what would you do with the hazard game? Thanks!
The string cheese man is on a third of teams. Everyone has to prepare for things that are in the top 10, but it feels like what people are doing instead is asking to ban just about anything that ever finds its way into the top ten. We are in a place where if somebody points out counterplay for X threat, people go "so I have to run that one mon on every team?!" (cinder) If you point out a lower tier mon that could help with a particular high-usage threat, people go "shitmons in OU means that you should ban!" (quaq, scizor, treads, bramble, gweez, mandibuzz, maus, cyclizar) How long does the list of OU viable or HEAT-esque mons for each high usage mon have to be before things go from "OMG ban yesterday pls" to "of course you have to prep for this top ten mon"? Five mons? Ten? All of OU? Right now, the sentiment seems tilted a lot more towards "all of OU has to be able to deal with __ top threat or it should be banned" than towards "let's cook." And IDK, that seems kind of sad from a teambuilding and spectating perspective. If we keep down this road, we'll end up banning hazards altogether and land in a regen core meta, which cmon, you know isn't where you want to be. We've got a pretty decent list of mons and strats that can be used to deal with hazards, things aren't as dire as people are making them out to be.
Alright, go ahead, "haha" away. But if you do, can you please explain what kind of meta you are looking for in terms of hazards? If you were in charge of design for the pokemon company, what would you do with the hazard game? Thanks!
We are looking for a metagame where removing hazards, which are stacked high extremely often is feasible.
If ghold was pure steel, there wouldn’t be a problem, cause guess what splashable mon exists right now: great tusk, which has rapid spin and uses it often. Ghold isn’t pure steel though, so it can run air balloon for the ghold user to have their odds tipped in their favour of the guessing game tusk has to play if it wants to bother trying to spin.
Having to run one mon on every team is bad because not every team can fit said mon, let alone the set (and this is putting aside the fact that cinderace is some fake ass removal, especially if the ghold has a gliscor which can switch in on ace and is immune to spikes naturally - giving court change far less value)
Go ahead and gimp the rest of your team trying to remove hazards though, cause I think you’ll find that the sets mentioned here are either worse than other sets that the mon can run (quaquaval, scizor, bramble) entirely outclassed and unable to keep up in ou apart from being able to remove hazards on ghold (treads, gweezing, cyclizar) or in a horrible twist of fate can’t even remove hazards on ghold anyway, defeating the point of using them (mandibuzz). Maushold is I suppose at the very least better than most of the other mons said here, despite me not being a massive fan of it, but good luck keeping it alive for long enough to actually remove hazards more than once, oh and also it can’t kill ghold with bite even after a tidy up boost.
I mean, you are right, Arboliva for sure didn't carry Boots in Gen 8, but not for the reason you think.
I feel so stupid lol, saw the small Tangrowth in the post and immagined the post was about it. Man do I miss it
With all the shit Gamefreak has been adding this gen. I am 90% convinced that they are trying to kill competitive singles. Refusing to give us good removal options while introducing 10 broken mons.
Zama is cheap and busted and should not be in this tier. The mon just invalidates offensive teams too easily.
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