Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[That_Dwayneee]

+1? How did it get there? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in this scenario you're calcing, the hazards have been removed, no? Maushold has succeeded at its job, no?

Can't do it twice tho.
Also even outside of the ghold mu (which is real bad for maus), it doesn't really do great due to it's frailty. For example gliscor's earthquake will guaranteed 2hko after a single spike, while it needs the boost to ohko gliscor with pop bomb in return.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Knock Off and Taunt Gliscor? Like yeah sure you’d fuck Corv over but you’re also running a bad set. In fact, it also makes you much worse into Tusk, because you can’t run Toxic to punish it.

More importantly, I’m not gonna accept this rewriting of history of people saying that “hazards weren’t a big issue until Gliscor”. Remember the first few months of Pre-HOME? Even when ludicrous shit like Chi-yu, Chien-Pao, and Shed Tail were legal hazard stack was so stupid to deal with. It wasn’t until Cinderace became available when hazard stacking teams became managable.

Also the “forcing every team to run Corv” argument is really funny considering for the longest time teams were being forced to run Tusk if they wanted to remove hazards

If Gliscor gets banned and not Gholdengo, the meta will be the exact fucking same except slightly worse without Gliscor being around as a blanket physical wall. Those teams that used Gliscor for Spikes will just use something like Ting Lu or Clodsire instead.

This seems weird to ask but what exactly makes Gliscor so uniquely problematic as a Spike setter? A Pokémon like Skarmory for example has never been considered problematic for “setting Spikes too easily throughout the game”. Keep in mind that Skarmory is a Pokémon that:

1. Has better physical defense than Gliscor
2. Has reliable recovery, something Gliscor currently doesn’t have
3. Has existed in metas with far less hazard removal options than Gen 9 would have without Gholdengo
4. Hasn‘t even always been the best Spikes setter

Skarmory is poised to return in DLC2 so I have to ask: If Skarmory was just made available in the current meta for no reason, would it be banworthy? According to the same philosophy used against Gliscor, apparently yes.

What makes Gliscor so uniquely problematic as a Spikes setter is Poison Heal granting it status immunity and knock off immunity, and preventing it from being worn down by chip damage, combined with its insane natural bulk, puts Gliscor in a position where it can just hang out on the field until one of the 5 Pokémon that hits hard enough to beat it comes out and it takes a PP and some extra healing with protect before leaving and repeating the cycle. It's also easy for Gliscor to come back in and repeat this cycle with its two type immunities, being able to be sent back in for free on Knock and chip moves, and immunity to spikes. other hazard setters possess some of these traits, but none of them all.

Ting-Lu and Clodsire rising up to take Gliscor's place wouldn't be the problem you're describing it as, it would be a solution, as these Pokémon can be crippled with knock off and status and do not have infinite unremovable rapid healing, nor knock off. Samurott, Greninja, and Meowscarada, though they have spikes and sans Greninja knock off, are much less sturdy than these Pokémon.

I also find it interesting that you accuse people of "rewriting history" and saying hazards were a always a problem, then in the very same paragraph call them "manageable" in a meta that contained Gholdengo, Clodsire, Ting-Lu, Meowscarada, Greninja, Cinderace, a more versatile Tusk, and no Gliscor.

Gliscor does not "need to exist as a blanket physical wall," we have Dondozo, we have Great Tusk, we have PhysDef Toxapex, we have PhysDef Gholdengo, etc

"Skarmory has reliable recovery but Gliscor doesn't" is a hilarious statement btw, Gliscor has more net HP after a turn ends + a protect turn than most Pokémon with "reliable recovery" have after being hit on the recovery turn, and Skarmory's passive healing can be knocked off and Gliscor's cannot. It also gets fucked over by the two birds that Gliscor laughs at because it cannot knock their boots away and unlike Gliscor is susceptible to Twave, Wisp, and is weak to their STABs

Can't do it twice tho.
Also even outside of the ghold mu (which is real bad for maus), it doesn't really do great due to it's frailty. For example gliscor's earthquake will guaranteed 2hko after a single spike, while it needs the boost to ohko gliscor with pop bomb in return.

Any team where Maushold fits over Cinderace or Tusk shouldn't be playing games where 3 layers is attainable for the opponent twice, barring of course Gliscor who is able to get 3 layers up with zero consequences

 

[Heatranator]

Y'all need to stop trying to dump all the problems on one pokemon. As DaddyBuzzwole said, they are both the fucking problem. Gholdengo can just say no to hazard removal while Gliscor can make sure that either spikes are up or everything on the opposing team is crippled. If Gholdengo goes, then gliscor will stay be able to do what it is doing. If gliscor goes, other pokemon will fill its place and we will be back at square one. Just ban both, problem solved.

Angry rant aside, what do people think of hawlucha in this meta? With rillaboom being good in the meta again, could unburden sets be more viable?
Hawlucha @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast
Honestly, this could be a good set, as it counters Gambit, Ghold, Waterpon and Valiant. With tera water, it could even beat gliscor.

+2 252+ Atk Tera Water Hawlucha Tera Blast vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 282-332 (80.1 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Or tera ice, if you want to screw over gliscor more.

+2 252+ Atk Tera Ice Hawlucha Tera Blast vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 564-664 (160.2 - 188.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But even something like tera fire or ghost could be good, ngl hawlucha could be a good sweeper.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Y'all need to stop trying to dump all the problems on one pokemon. As DaddyBuzzwole said, they are both the fucking problem. Gholdengo can just say no to hazard removal while Gliscor can make sure that either spikes are up or everything on the opposing team is crippled. If Gholdengo goes, then gliscor will stay be able to do what it is doing. If gliscor goes, other pokemon will fill its place and we will be back at square one. Just ban both, problem solved.

Both are probably the problem, yeah. But we're likely only going to be able to deal with one, and banning Gliscor is treating symptoms, not the sickness. That's why I'm so heavily in favour of banning Dengo first, and if Gliscor/Hazards are still a big problem after Dengo goes, then we can get rid of Gliscor too.

I just don't want to waste time banning Gliscor first and end up being right back where we are now with half the community freaking out and trying to ban the next best annoying spiker and the other half correctly identifying the issue.

 

[SDK03]

Both are probably the problem, yeah. But we're likely only going to be able to deal with one, and banning Gliscor is treating symptoms, not the sickness. That's why I'm so heavily in favour of banning Dengo first, and if Gliscor/Hazards are still a big problem after Dengo goes, then we can get rid of Gliscor too.

I just don't want to waste time banning Gliscor first and end up being right back where we are now with half the community freaking out and trying to ban the next best annoying spiker and the other half correctly identifying the issue.

THAT’S WHAT I’VE BEEN SAYING THE WHOLE TIME! People are just gonna go back to complaining about how brainless Ceasless Edge is and about how unkillable Ting-Lu feels as they all used to, so ban the thing making Spikes as a whole so unbearable to deal with by getting rid of Gholdengo first.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Y'all need to stop trying to dump all the problems on one pokemon. As DaddyBuzzwole said, they are both the fucking problem. Gholdengo can just say no to hazard removal while Gliscor can make sure that either spikes are up or everything on the opposing team is crippled. If Gholdengo goes, then gliscor will stay be able to do what it is doing. If gliscor goes, other pokemon will fill its place and we will be back at square one. Just ban both, problem solved.

Angry rant aside, what do people think of hawlucha in this meta? With rillaboom being good in the meta again, could unburden sets be more viable?
Hawlucha @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast
Honestly, this could be a good set, as it counters Gambit, Ghold, Waterpon and Valiant. With tera water, it could even beat gliscor.

+2 252+ Atk Tera Water Hawlucha Tera Blast vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 282-332 (80.1 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Or tera ice, if you want to screw over gliscor more.

+2 252+ Atk Tera Ice Hawlucha Tera Blast vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 564-664 (160.2 - 188.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But even something like tera fire or ghost could be good, ngl hawlucha could be a good sweeper.

The standard OU Hawlucha set runs Substitute which imo improves the Gliscor matchup a lot more than Tera Water Tera Blast, making defensive sets total setup fodder while also helping to insulate Hawlucha against revenge kills from priority. Tera Flying Acrobatics only deals slightly less damage to Gliscor anyway, while retaining your precious Ground immunity.

Also I might just be missing something, but how does this Hawlucha set counter Gholdengo??

 

[Roshino]

(...)
Angry rant aside, what do people think of hawlucha in this meta? With rillaboom being good in the meta again, could unburden sets be more viable?
Hawlucha @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast

Given a few prerequisites (e.g. having a strong water/ice attacker to murder Gliscor) consider
ENCORE
ENCORE
ENCORE
(sub works too if you want to flip the tables and turn Gliscor into setup fodder instead [and get hit by toxic switching in])

Unburden turns Hawlucha into the fastest encore in the meta. You could potentially slow turn in front of a Valiant Calm Mind or a RM Dragon Dance and encore them after they get their speed to +1. Silly stuff


EDIT: being a bit more specific
edit2 grammar

 

[Heatranator]

The standard OU Hawlucha set runs Substitute which imo improves the Gliscor matchup a lot more than Tera Water Tera Blast, making defensive sets total setup fodder while also helping to insulate Hawlucha against revenge kills from priority. Tera Flying Acrobatics only deals slightly less damage to Gliscor anyway, while retaining your precious Ground immunity.

Also I might just be missing something, but how does this Hawlucha set counter Gholdengo??

Oops, I forgot that Gholdengo is a ghost type, my bad.
So yeah, might not counter gholdengo, but I honestly think that sub is not as great as you get a defense boost from the seed you consume. Plus knock off is less effective and toxic is only going to limit the sweep, as the team will be severly bludgeoned. Also misty seed with weezing galar could be good as after tera, you're immune to status.
Tera fire or ghost is probably best if you want to counter gholdengo, but tera blast water still is a three hit ko on defensive ghold.
+2 252+ Atk Tera Water Hawlucha Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 169-199 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And a two hit ko on air balloon sets.
+2 252+ Atk Tera Water Hawlucha Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 237-279 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And shadow ball can't ohko you.
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Hawlucha: 195-229 (65.6 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[veti]

If gliscor goes, other pokemon will fill its place and we will be back at square one. Just ban both, problem solved.

Pro-Ban Gholdengo was a MUCH rarer stance in the past, before Gliscor was released. DLC1 comes around and now suddenly everyone is after Gliscor. The only other new spiker is Ogerpon which is a great pokemon but not a great spiker.

For some stats, Gholdengo received overwhelming 1s and 2s from both the qualified and unqualified playerbase from the last tiering survey it was part of before DLC1, and there was then never enough outcry to justify putting it on the survey.

 

[Chilln0]

What makes Gliscor so uniquely problematic as a Spikes setter is Poison Heal granting it status immunity and knock off immunity, and preventing it from being worn down by chip damage, combined with its insane natural bulk, puts Gliscor in a position where it can just hang out on the field until one of the 5 Pokémon that hits hard enough to beat it comes out and it takes a PP and some extra healing with protect before leaving and repeating the cycle. It's also easy for Gliscor to come back in and repeat this cycle with its two type immunities, being able to be sent back in for free on Knock and chip moves, and immunity to spikes. other hazard setters possess some of these traits, but none of them all.

Ting-Lu and Clodsire rising up to take Gliscor's place wouldn't be the problem you're describing it as, it would be a solution, as these Pokémon can be crippled with knock off and status and do not have infinite unremovable rapid healing, nor knock off. Samurott, Greninja, and Meowscarada, though they have spikes and sans Greninja knock off, are much less sturdy than these Pokémon.

I also find it interesting that you accuse people of "rewriting history" and saying hazards were a always a problem, then in the very same paragraph call them "manageable" in a meta that contained Gholdengo, Clodsire, Ting-Lu, Meowscarada, Greninja, Cinderace, a more versatile Tusk, and no Gliscor.

Gliscor does not "need to exist as a blanket physical wall," we have Dondozo, we have Great Tusk, we have PhysDef Toxapex, we have PhysDef Gholdengo, etc

"Skarmory has reliable recovery but Gliscor doesn't" is a hilarious statement btw, Gliscor has more net HP after a turn ends + a protect turn than most Pokémon with "reliable recovery" have after being hit on the recovery turn, and Skarmory's passive healing can be knocked off and Gliscor's cannot. It also gets fucked over by the two birds that Gliscor laughs at because it cannot knock their boots away and unlike Gliscor is susceptible to Twave, Wisp, and is weak to their STABs

Any team where Maushold fits over Cinderace or Tusk shouldn't be playing games where 3 layers is attainable for the opponent twice, barring of course Gliscor who is able to get 3 layers up with zero consequences

Wear them down with what status?

Beyond the fact that Clod is straight up immune to Toxic and Ting-Lu can run Rest (which admittedly is exploitable in its own ways), most mons that want to run Toxic are weak to EQ, and most mons that can run Knock Off are offensive threats that scare them out anyway. Unless of course, you want mons like Clefable, Mandibuzz, and Alomomola to spam Knock and spread status, in which case congrats for keeping the meta the exact same I guess?

Just to clarify, I more so meant that those hazard stacking teams in early SV became more manageable when Cinderace returned. That is to say, they weren’t completely everywhere. They were still really restricting to play against though. People were always spamming boots like they are now; this isn’t exactly a new development.

By the way, what do you mean only 5 pokemon threaten Gliscor? You’re acting like it isn’t exploitable on the special side, weak to the most common type in the tier, and is giving free set up turns due to it relying on protect to stay alive throughout the game

 

[Heatranator]

Pro-Ban Gholdengo was a MUCH rarer stance in the past, before Gliscor was released. DLC1 comes around and now suddenly everyone is after Gliscor. The only other new spiker is Ogerpon which is a great pokemon but not a great spiker.

For some stats, Gholdengo received overwhelming 1s and 2s from both the qualified and unqualified playerbase from the last tiering survey it was part of before DLC1, and there was then never enough outcry to justify putting it on the survey.

I will agree that banning Gholdengo was a lot more spicy take before DLC1, but there were definetely people saying it should be banned.
However, a reason that it is much more prevelant now is because of optimisation and the increase in the power level. With air balloon, great tusk is a lot more exploitable for gholdengo and can be set up fodder.
The power increase means that hazards are a lot more valuable to allow for more sweeps and to limit said sweepers. An example of this is arena trap or baton pass. Baton pass isn't banned before generation 4, although it was a problem in gen 3. Passing calm mind from a celebi to a team mate is a lot less threatening than it would be in modern gens. Arena trap dugtrio is also not overpowered in gen 3 because the pokemon it is enabling are not as game winning if their counter's are removed as modern gen pokemon.
TLDR, gholdengo has always had some support but the surrounding landscape makes its qualities a lot more dangerous, but I do agree with what you said about ghold before.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Y'all need to stop trying to dump all the problems on one pokemon.

the unfortunate fact of the matter is, there are a lot of people laboring under the delusion that the entire meta will magically be solved in a single ban, despite the council throwing out bans literally constantly through the entire lifespan of the gen and the meta still not being balanced. far too many people straight-up cannot process that multiple things can be bad at the same time, so they lock onto one problem and either recontextualize every other problem in existence as stemming from that one or ignore everything that they perceive as not being relevant to solving the problem

the even more unfortunate fact is that it's almost impossible to avoid thinking like this. it's the human condition—not even just a part of the human condition, but almost the totality of it. we're a fightin' species. almost every philosophy, ideology, and even concept we have is meant to narrow all the world's problems down to a single cause, designate that cause as "the enemy", and declare that defeating this enemy will make everything good forever. the alternative is accepting that life is a constant struggle against many enemies, some of which can't ever be truly defeated, and no one wants to do that because then what are we even fighting for. here, though, we do have an endgame—the obstacles to a balanced tier are numerous, but they are finite. have hope

 

[viivian]

- Banning Gliscor makes Gholdengo go back to being a kinda meh pokemon with it not really being of much use outside of a Defog blocker

Before Gliscor spawned in, Great Tusk mopped the floor with Gholdengo. After Gliscor stepped in, suddenly you need to acknowledge the thing.

small post but i feel the need to call this out.

no, gholdengo would not go back to being "kinda meh" without gliscor. even pre-DLC it was sitting at S- rank and directly below kingambit and great tusk. it was at minimum top 4 in viability then and saw itself at top 4 usage throughout all of HOME. thats certainly not something that can easily be overlooked. the presence of gliscor (and ribombee but thats not relevant here) undeniably makes gholdengo even better but even without gliscor it would still be absolutely phenomenal. this little shit has been meta-defining all generation and will only get better and better as time goes on. banning gliscor will not suddenly make gholdengo fine for the tier and vice versa. i genuinely just think both should be banned as soon as possible and should not ever be retested unless DLC2 substantially expands the distribution of defog. and i doubt even that would be enough to stop them from being utterly broken.

 

[tommytt22]

Hazard removers that can beat gliscor (geezing, cryogonal, avalugg, conviknight, maushold and a few shaky others) have a poor matchup into gholdengo. Which makes that 2 pokemon core feel really nasty. People will pick one or the other to point the finger at depending on their style of team, as 1 is not completely broken without the other, and either can be beaten on its own.

By now most know my opinion is that ghold is to blame. Certainly he has changed the way we play the game this generation, when Combined with gamefreaks stranglehold on hazard removal. I can still see gliscor being an s rank pokemon with gholdengo gone but I don't think it would be broken if you could defog into it and know with certainty you'll remove hazards. Good as gold is perhaps the most broken ability of all time (at least wonder guard is on a pu shitter, gholdengo would still be OU on its typing, movepool and stats)

TL;DR Nasty plot defog crobat would have messed up this core FR, I'll never forgive gamefreak for dexit

 

[KamenOH]

What if we just got rid of spikes? Isn't that what everyone's shitting themselves over? Gliscor is too good at setting spikes, Gholdengo is too good at keeping spikes, Great Tusk might be UU, really we can fix all of this by getting rid of spikes. Im not the first to propose this, either.

 

[Roshino]

the unfortunate fact of the matter is, there are a lot of people laboring under the delusion that the entire meta will magically be solved in a single ban

(...)

Yep, pretty much
-

Someone pointed out earlier about the whole thing about people clamoring to ban Samurott-H and I'll tunnel and ramble on that for a sec (bear with me) because I had just returned to the game and wasn't reading forums or involved in the community at all to witness that, so I'll wall-of-text my mostly fresh vision of that particular time

When I came back to the game the dude was already running around. My brain was still functioning on old weather wars rules and I looked at both Kleavor and Samu-H and "oh damn - you don't have to choose between attacking and setting spikes anymore? That seems broken" and all in all it faded away quickly. You see, the thing about Samurott-H is that its stats are kinda... bad. Every now and never, people mention Mew and most people agree that having solid stats all around and no high stat is not good enough to make use of possibly the current best movepool of the entire game. Other than the 108 attack, Samurott's stats are worse than Mew's mid stats.

Even with Sharpness, its attacks don't hit hard enough to make the pokemon by themselves. I believe most would agree that without spikes, it would be mid at best. They aren't 100% accurate either. Defensively, if you punch its face it WILL die because it is Focus Sash levels of squishy. Being that squishy infers that you will be quickly taken down. Glimmora is kinda similar, for instance. Ting Lu is way bulkier, but it is worn down by regular wall counters.

With all of that being said, Gholdengo helped Samu-H a lot. Even if Samurott goes down, it is kind of annoying to defog/spin because of Gholdengo. Then, usual counterplay is to take Samurott down and then get off a hazard removal a single time. You could KO Ghold, you could get a good read, you could even run a weird-ass Weezing-Galar and then the hazards threat is gone (being very reductive here bc look at the size of this post lol) and you can keep playing the game.

Gholdengo is and was strong (why does it get Recover? lol), but at a power level that my main grievance was with Kingambit (still a bastard). When Gliscor came back, my fresh-off-Gen-5 brain PTSD came back full force and I knew for a fact everyone would be forced to run random ice coverage and here we are lol

TLDR;

Gholdengo is a bastard, Gliscor is a bastard, Gambit is a bastard. Given the power, I'd QB all of them, in the following order of priority

Gambit=Gliscor>Gholdengo

 

[Endrism]

I wanna share the set I've been using a TON lately:


Zamazenta @ Leftovers
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Heavy Slam
- Roar

RoarSlam Zama has been my go to Zama set for a little bit now, and this thing is funny as hell. Everyone always expects Crunch so they never swap in the Gholdengo or Pult against it out of fear, and whenever I use Zama, people always use Iron Valiant as their swap in every time and they fall for it every time. Some have also tried using Unaware Clef to just yawn in the face of ID Zama, but they are just in range of falling too, in fact, all the fairies get a rude awakening when they think they can swap in freely.

Bye Bye Fairies!

4 Atk Tera Steel Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 332-392 (114.8 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Tera Steel Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 266-314 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Tera Steel Zamazenta Heavy Slam (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 338-402 (116.9 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Tera Steel Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 236-278 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Tera Steel Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow: 508-604 (145.5 - 173%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Tera Steel Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ribombee: 458-540 (175.4 - 206.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Roar is for the many times I have gotten into an Iron Defense face-off. A lot of Zamas swap in on the Tera Steel thinking if they boost up, their Body Presses kill me first because its super effective, and get a fun little surprise when on their second ID they get roared out, and now they have to deal with a +3/5 MONSTER ready to wipe their entire team.

One of the things that gives this trouble is Defensive Gliscor, who will have just enough defenses to BARELY avoid a 2hko, but god forbid Gliscor tries to be cheeky and run any attack EV's because its cutting it CLOSE on the 3HKO already. At +6 its gonna be a long fight since without access to toxic since Zama is Tera Steel, Gliscor will have to alternate between spamming protect and Earthquake until you fold. However, the funniest part is that if you don't want to deal with Gliscor, you can just roar him out, as at +6 and Tera Steel, Earthquake only does a measly 14% at most. Meaning you can roar him out, and continue your tirade, and by the time he swaps back in, leftovers will have already healed all that damage back, and then he needs to be prepared to take 2 consecutive +6 Body Presses, so he better not be chipped~!

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. +6 0 HP / 252 Def Tera Steel Zamazenta: 38-48 (11.6 - 14.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 252 Def Tera Steel Zamazenta Body Press vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 147-174 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

This set is in fact completely walled by Gholdengo, as you can't even roar it out as it has Good as Gold, but with sufficient enough support on a fat team, all you need to do is wait for Gholdengo to fall and its time to blast a hole through the side of their team.

Here's the one replay of the thing in action that I actually saved, I may upload more of them as I get them later;
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1977714988

 

[1LDK]

Okay so, on the topic of spikes and dengo + gliscor and stuff, ill be short and will probably expand tomorrow if people want but

1) spikes ban is basically the 202X version of ban rocks 10 years later, will never fly, just give up

2) Dengo is unconventionally broken, I have already talked about this numerous times, but people are hard coded to build thinking he will appear in every match, and right now, I don't care how many cries I get, to be corv has been c-/unviable this entire gen, with ghold gone, bulky teams get easier team building by slapping it and not having to cope by adding other shit in top

3) gliscor is broken, doesn't have roost, doesn't matter, just walls every single mon in the tier unless you let your guard down and face weird tera blast ice, the gen 8 special of knock + U-turn + toxic + hazards + being fucking annoying has led to more and more people in scl taking either full boots gliscor balance or just go ho

kingambit is not broken, has never been broken and will never be broken
tera is not broken
roaring moon is not broken
valiant ban train is a joke
booster ban train is a joke

and that's all, guess who has to wake up at 7AM for uni classes on a fucking Saturday, at least had a good day for once in my life, anyway, good night, pls drop all the hahas u want

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Wear them down with what status?

Beyond the fact that Clod is straight up immune to Toxic and Ting-Lu can run Rest (which admittedly is exploitable in its own ways), most mons that want to run Toxic are weak to EQ, and most mons that can run Knock Off are offensive threats that scare them out anyway. Unless of course, you want mons like Clefable, Mandibuzz, and Alomomola to spam Knock and spread status, in which case congrats for keeping the meta the exact same I guess?

Just to clarify, I more so meant that those hazard stacking teams in early SV became more manageable when Cinderace returned. That is to say, they weren’t completely everywhere. They were still really restricting to play against though. People were always spamming boots like they are now; this isn’t exactly a new development.

By the way, what do you mean only 5 pokemon threaten Gliscor? You’re acting like it isn’t exploitable on the special side, weak to the most common type in the tier, and is giving free set up turns due to it relying on protect to stay alive throughout the game

Ting-Lu is highly susceptible to Toxic and Knock Off, especially from Gliscor who walls Lu and gets spikes up. Clodsire can be knocked and burned, and even outside of that has too low a BST to be an issue dealing with. If you genuinely believe Clodsire using Spikes is a problem that requires tiering action, I'm sorry but this is a skill issue, and presumably you will never rest until no Pokémon ever uses Spikes again, which is a pretty ridiculous ask given it's been part of competitive for over two decades now. Ting-Lu CAN run rest, but like you say this is highly exploitable since it doesn't run sleep talk, and extremely rare outside of full stall which, sorry, they're getting their spikes up and doing everything they can to keep them up. Everything save for running Gholdengo in fact, and yet stall manages to win using Spikes as a central strategy even still. Curious!

"most mons that run toxic are weak to EQ" with one extremely notable exception! And yes, I do think Clefable, Mandibuzz, and Alomomola using Knock Off (can Mola even learn knock?) and spreading status are not problems. Why would they be?

Based on you having an issue with spikes, Mandibuzz, Alomomola, and Clefable, it seems to me like you're the type of player who thinks stall is cheap and should not exist? Which is ridiculous, not only is stall an intuitive and interesting playstyle to use and leads to enjoyable gameplay (until the opponent sends out Gliscor and you're sitting there PP stalling each other and occasionally clicking knock and toxic in hopes of the other player switching) but also it's not broken or a problem in any way, like I can think of 5 matchups in seconds that stall has almost zero chance of winning without very heavy prediction and luck, it's not a playstyle that needs action towards it at all

And any player that clicks protect in the face of a Pokémon that clearly has swords dance is making a terrible choice, or has an unaware in the back. Boosting moves are quite easily telegraphed, basically the only Pokémon that can surprise players with boosting is... you guessed it: Gliscor! Gliscor also isn't particularly "exploitable" on the special side, unless you count "using protect for free healing then switching out" as exploitation of the Gliscor player

Edit: wow watch Gliscor be taken advantage of by strong special attacker Zapdos https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1977931491

 

[Finchinator]

Roaring Moon voting has begun: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-suspect-process-round-7-voting.3730358/#post-9838140

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

actually, i've thought of something: what are hazards like in ubers? ghold has 2% usage there and isn't even on the vr, so it's the closest environment we have right now to a meta with all ou's current hazard setters but without ghold. for anyone who plays ubers, are hazards still bullshit up there? do they still warp teambuilding even though ghold effectively doesn't have to be accounted for in builder? and if so, why?

 

[ianlazerbeem]

actually, i've thought of something: what are hazards like in ubers? ghold has 2% usage there and isn't even on the vr, so it's the closest environment we have right now to a meta with all ou's current hazard setters but without ghold. for anyone who plays ubers, are hazards still bullshit up there? do they still warp teambuilding even though ghold effectively doesn't have to be accounted for in builder? and if so, why?

My understanding is almost every game begins with Ribombee vs Ribombee, and they all run Imprison in hopes of winning the speed tie and denying the opponent their Webs

 

[Red Raven]

actually, i've thought of something: what are hazards like in ubers? ghold has 2% usage there and isn't even on the vr, so it's the closest environment we have right now to a meta with all ou's current hazard setters but without ghold. for anyone who plays ubers, are hazards still bullshit up there? do they still warp teambuilding even though ghold effectively doesn't have to be accounted for in builder? and if so, why?

As someone who mainly plays Ubers, hazards are still a pain. However, they are a bit easier to stop because the only ones who set hazards are Ting Lu, Clodsire, and various supports Arceus forms. These are the most common setters and well, Arceus now has taunt so it is often worth maximizing speed just to spam taunt. The second best mon, Miraidon, also has a boots pivot set that runs taunt and its really good into Ribombee leads because it can't set webs. However, hazard removal is a massive problem and the best way to deal with it is simply to dael with it. Both sides will die to hazards anyway. The only real hazard removal is is Origin Giratina but that invites in Arceus to just set rocks back up or use it as setup fodder for calm mind. Iron Treads is an option but it's really only useful against Miraidon. If you're not facing Miraidon, Treads can feel dead weight

Aside from that, Ubers is such a centralized tier with many mons repeating themselves across nearly every team. You have your Koraidon, Ting Lu, and Arceus form. The rest are a mix of Zacian, Kyogre, Skeledirge, Toxapex, Flutter Mane, Eternatus, and above all, Miraidon. Koraidon is so dominant with its scarf or scale shot sets that it even had a 69%, nice, usage

So, to answer your question, yes, hazards are still bullshit but not for the same reasons here. I don't play OU that much but from what I understand, the issue with hazards is that removing it is nearly impossible due to one pokemon being such a pain. In Ubers, the issue is that we literally only have one pokemon that can remove hazards that also isn't too reliant on matchup, Origin Giratina

 

[YNM]

Here I come bitching like a crybaby, Zamazenta is broken. The Sub+ID with Tera Steel set is incredibly cheap, and its only real checks are Unaware Clef, Dondozo and Zapdos (and I guess Dirge but it's not really that common in OU to begin with). Furthermore, if you're running Zapdos you better pray that your Static saves your ass or that Hurricane doesn't miss, cause after an Iron Defense that mon cleanly 2HKOs the offensive variants. And I don't think I need to point out that it is not the easiest task to revenge kill a mon with 138 Base Speed.

Yes I just got reverse-swept by a Zamazenta, how could you tell?

 

[Up darma nitan]

As someone who mainly plays Ubers, hazards are still a pain. However, they are a bit easier to stop because the only ones who set hazards are Ting Lu, Clodsire, and various supports Arceus forms. These are the most common setters and well, Arceus now has taunt so it is often worth maximizing speed just to spam taunt. The second best mon, Miraidon, also has a boots pivot set that runs taunt and its really good into Ribombee leads because it can't set webs. However, hazard removal is a massive problem and the best way to deal with it is simply to dael with it. Both sides will die to hazards anyway. The only real hazard removal is is Origin Giratina but that invites in Arceus to just set rocks back up or use it as setup fodder for calm mind. Iron Treads is an option but it's really only useful against Miraidon. If you're not facing Miraidon, Treads can feel dead weight

Aside from that, Ubers is such a centralized tier with many mons repeating themselves across nearly every team. You have your Koraidon, Ting Lu, and Arceus form. The rest are a mix of Zacian, Kyogre, Skeledirge, Toxapex, Flutter Mane, Eternatus, and above all, Miraidon. Koraidon is so dominant with its scarf or scale shot sets that it even had a 69%, nice, usage

So, to answer your question, yes, hazards are still bullshit but not for the same reasons here. I don't play OU that much but from what I understand, the issue with hazards is that removing it is nearly impossible due to one pokemon being such a pain. In Ubers, the issue is that we literally only have one pokemon that can remove hazards that also isn't too reliant on matchup, Origin Giratina

Wonder if Giratina is in OU, good defog option and could threaten Gholdengo with Poltergeist, Shadow Ball/Sneak