Please no let's not do this again
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Eh, there's a bit more counterplay than that. I've seen ID Corv able to 1v1 Zama (though you gotta position that well), ID Tera Garg is annoying as well, and some random shit like Tera Ghost Bulk Up Quaquaval screwed me over earlier today. Bulky Dengo is another good check, but it does take a ton from Crunch and is susceptible to def drops. Dragapult is also annoying for it.
I def do agree that its cheap since you can just autowin in some positions, but Teching Tera Ghost feels like its often enough to neutralize it.
It could work. Giratina's also naturally faster than Gholdengo and its really bulky. As in really bulky. The only thing it really lacks is roost and it can do some shuffling with dragon tail
I forgot about Pult's Infiltrator, it's definitely the best revenge-killer out there as long as Zamazenta isn't at full health.
I run a pretty bulky Dengo and it is indeed not always easy to get it into the field considering the potential Crunch it may take while switching in. And if Zamazenta is behind a Sub then you gotta break it first, which again makes Dengo even more vulnerable to Crunch.
My problem with all of the other mons is that you gotta time the Iron Defenses well, otherwise you may get into the field with a mon that either immediately Body Presses you or that it's already at +3 because of its stupid ability. And God forbid you get Critted while Iron Defensing up (yes, it also happened to me in a game).
Recently, ive been using this Zamazenta set:
Zamazenta @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Heavy Slam
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
Adamant Scarf Zamazenta reaches a speed of 562, outspeed +1 Jolly/Timid pokemon with a base speed of 120 and lower
Adamant guarantees Heavy Slam OHKOing Iron Valiant.
The only issues with this set is that you dont outspeed Modest Dragapult, and Jolly Meowscarada can outspeed you.
I’m not sure on the tera type - you could go Jolly + Tera Steel to kill Valiant or have Gholdengo + Spikes support to chip valiant in the first place. I like tera dark to get big hits on ghold or dragapult trying to switch in on a CC.
Scarf zama is fun and its not something people expect. Its super fast and strong, i love it
Zamazenta @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Heavy Slam
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
Adamant Scarf Zamazenta reaches a speed of 562, outspeed +1 Jolly/Timid pokemon with a base speed of 120 and lower
Adamant guarantees Heavy Slam OHKOing Iron Valiant.
The only issues with this set is that you dont outspeed Modest Dragapult, and Jolly Meowscarada can outspeed you.
I’m not sure on the tera type - you could go Jolly + Tera Steel to kill Valiant or have Gholdengo + Spikes support to chip valiant in the first place. I like tera dark to get big hits on ghold or dragapult trying to switch in on a CC.
Scarf zama is fun and its not something people expect. Its super fast and strong, i love it
I find Bold Ghold does a pretty good job against it. With Plot / Recover / T Wave / Hex or Recover / Twave / MIR / Hex idk
tho i do feel like it requires a ghost to counter. Fortunately we’re in a meta where ghosts are great, so i feel like people dont notice as much?
Well I mean maybe I got used to it but Gholdengo for me has just always been kinda there. Of course it existed but it hasn't posed any issues with my OU teams that didn't have it
This being said... most of them had Gholdengo, so this is just a gigantic contradiction I'm throwing out there. Probably cuz I live in 1450 ELO for OU but Gholdengo isn't too problematic for me. Yea it's good but for me it's just kinda been an option because most of the ones I faced either lost to my dengo or lost to something on my team extremely hard.
1450 isn't high level gameplay so that could be a judgemental interference. And after seeing that Sylveon is so cute vs carkoala game of the Gliscor stalemate and thinking about how a Gholdengo would change that game, I'm fairly certain it's become a lot more tedious -- especially since Roaring Moon is getting gotted.
My issue with this comparison
There's a lot of conversation that Snorlax is kept around because without it things like Zapdos and Raikou would be overbearing to non-Blissey teams and turn GSC OU into a Stall/Offense Match-up fish. Assuming this to b accurate I would make the argument GSC Snorlax is a Broken-checking-Broken scenario that is in place because the tier is legacy and the playerbase does not consider the shake-up and time spent tiering to be worth it, even if that would be how things would go following later gen tiering practice. I would also tangentially cite Iron Valiant is a contentious presence even with Gholdengo as a check.
I don't know what GSC metagame at large looks like in terms of predominant styles (or variety of them) but I also feel Gholdengo has the opposite of the above effect when it makes Boots Spam and Hazard-Stack Offense far-and-away the best playstyles (and I say Gholdengo does this because it pulls it off with all manner of Hazard removers, vs past gens where even things like Ferrothorn weren't THIS level of Obnoxious as long as there was some way to remove hazards.
The fundamental problem I have with Gliscor and Gholdengo (as a core and to a lesser extent individually) is that they both make progress for you and undo progress for the opponent literally by existing: Gholdengo gets easy chances to heal/Boost or just throw Specs attacks by virtue of how many things it blanks (every status move, 3 Immunities, 9 Resistances, plus 1 if it has a Balloon) and doesn't need to predict to prevent progress by an entire category of Pokemon (i.e. having to get off a Taunt to stop Utility mons from acting, which means they can try to switch or hit you back if they're slower). Gliscor meanwhile heals by existing, punishes positioning because of Knock Off and Spikes, literally ignores status (so no Spore -> Set up Chance) and 85% of a full field of Hazards (so nothing stopping it from pivoting around). I think it's hyperbolic to call even most Broken Mons "brainless" but this core is the closest I feel we've had in a while simply because a lot of it is what they are rather than what they do. It's not even a knock against players because they can be modified/piloted to do more, but Ghold-cor does so much just by switching in or existing before you have to click a single move.
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and the fucked-up part is, they don't even have to be on your team to make progress for you and undo progress for the opponent. the core warps teambuilding so profoundly that most teams overprepare for it (because if you regular-prepare for it you still lose the matchup) and cripple themselves against other things—roaring moon, for example
its saturday my dudes i thought we had agreed to leave the gliscor gholdengo discourse behind on weekends
some days ago i posted my replay about NG geezing against gliscor but ever since then I have yet to run into another gliscor fuck lowladder fr y'all be out here discussing about hazard removal meanwhile i have to figure out how to beat SubSeed trevenant
some days ago i posted my replay about NG geezing against gliscor but ever since then I have yet to run into another gliscor fuck lowladder fr y'all be out here discussing about hazard removal meanwhile i have to figure out how to beat SubSeed trevenant
i will not shut up about gliscor and gholdengo until at least one of them goes. in fact, i hope roaring moon stays so we can jump right into the next suspect without having to wait for the meta to settle down. like, i think it should be banned, i would vote ban if i could, but we desperately need bans of 3g (gliscor, ghold, gambit) as soon as possible—ideally, sooner than possible
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A little bit late but I seriously don't get how people watch this replay and point fingers at Gholdengo rather than Gliscor. Regardless of how Ghold affects the whole hazard deal that makes Gliscor's spikes be able to last so long, I think this replay shows really well how much Gliscor has a chokehold on this meta. The best Gliscor answer is fucking Gliscor himself, and Gliscor can't actually damage opposing Gliscor unless they start running crabhammer.
Between Spikes, Knock, Toxic, EQ, U-turn and Protect it can annoy just about everything, waste turns and set up spikes whilst continously healing, having a borderline immunity to Status and being the best Knock absorber in the tier. It does so much in one slot. It does have 4mss to a certain extent but from my experience it doesn't really impede Gliscor from doing what it wants to do, and mostly just comes down to if it wants to be a Knock Spammer or have a better matchup into things immune to Toxic with EQ.
Do we really want a meta where the best answer to the tier's top mon is itself, which results in games like these where half the turns are just PP stalling
Okay I hope you're ready for the worst take ever.
This is Gen 9 OU, without the mons being discussed constantly for bans, with the mons not legal in Gen 8 bolded:
Blissey
Cinderace
Clefable
Corviknight
Dondozo
Dragapult
Dragonite
Empoleon
Enamorus
Glimmora
Great Tusk
Greninja
Hatterene
Iron Moth
Landorus-Therian
Ninetales-Alola
Ogerpon-Cornerstone
Ribombee
Rillaboom
Samurott-Hisui
Slowking-Galar
Ting-Lu
Torkoal
Toxapex
Zapdos
This is Gen 8 OU, minus the unobtainable mons, with the mons currently sitting in OU bolded, the ones with OU viability in italics, and the banned ones striked
Barraskewda
Bisharp
Blissey
Clefable
Corviknight
Dragapult
Dragonite
Garchomp
Heatran
Landorus-Therian
Magnezone
Mew
Ninetales-Alola
Pelipper
Rillaboom
Slowbro
Slowking-Galar
Tornadus-Therian
Toxapex
Tyranitar
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Volcanion
Volcarona
Weavile
Zapdos
All the mons not highlighted are outclassed or irrelevant to the meta, replaced by some new mon that does their job better. That's a whopping 16/25 mons in Gen 8 OU that are the same as now. If we get rid of that many threats in Gen 9 OU, this is what it would look like. Hope y'all like your Regen cores.
This is Gen 9 OU, without the mons being discussed constantly for bans, with the mons not legal in Gen 8 bolded:
Blissey
Clefable
Corviknight
Dondozo
Dragapult
Dragonite
Empoleon
Enamorus
Glimmora
Great Tusk
Greninja
Hatterene
Iron Moth
Landorus-Therian
Ninetales-Alola
Ogerpon-Cornerstone
Ribombee
Rillaboom
Samurott-Hisui
Slowking-Galar
Ting-Lu
Torkoal
Toxapex
Zapdos
This is Gen 8 OU, minus the unobtainable mons, with the mons currently sitting in OU bolded, the ones with OU viability in italics, and the banned ones striked
Barraskewda
Bisharp
Blissey
Clefable
Corviknight
Dragapult
Dragonite
Garchomp
Heatran
Landorus-Therian
Magnezone
Mew
Ninetales-Alola
Pelipper
Rillaboom
Slowbro
Slowking-Galar
Tornadus-Therian
Toxapex
Tyranitar
Volcanion
Weavile
Zapdos
All the mons not highlighted are outclassed or irrelevant to the meta, replaced by some new mon that does their job better. That's a whopping 16/25 mons in Gen 8 OU that are the same as now. If we get rid of that many threats in Gen 9 OU, this is what it would look like. Hope y'all like your Regen cores.
^Thats indeed the worst take ever. Toxapex doesn't have Knock and Scald in SS, Clef doesn't have Softboiled and Teleport, Blissey doesn't have Wish or Port, Recovery moves are nerfed in general and for me SS OU ( after DLC2) was too offensive and without enough bans in first place. Meta won't be the same or even similar regardless of the number of bans.
Regarding Gliscor and Gholdengo, in my opinion BOTH should be banned. Gliscor doesn't need Gholdengo to centralize on its own, but Gholdengo already was the perfect Mon to pair with the dominating Spike Stacks in first place before Gliscor, I am glad more and more people want to make Corviknight good as it deserves to be again.
Regarding Gliscor and Gholdengo, in my opinion BOTH should be banned. Gliscor doesn't need Gholdengo to centralize on its own, but Gholdengo already was the perfect Mon to pair with the dominating Spike Stacks in first place before Gliscor, I am glad more and more people want to make Corviknight good as it deserves to be again.
This shit happened with Pex all the time in previous gens and no one lost their minds over that. I don't know why when Gliscor does it it's suddenly some kind of war crime.
The HO brainrot this generation is so fucking obvious lmao
You seriously want me to add all the mons discussed for a ban in gen 9 included in the gen 9 OU story? I guess so... adds more to it
People hated Pex with the force of 1000 burning suns and calls for bans were decently common (never considered seriously iirc, but common). Toxapex will probably go down in history as one of the few Pokemon in the series to have it's overall popularity be NEGATIVELY affected by it's presence in competitive.
People hated it but it was obviously not broken and obviously not a problem at any point before Game Freak got on meth and decided to nuke movesets for no reason. If that wasn't a problem, then Gliscor doing the exact same thing, no matter how annoying it may be, is not broken and not a problem.
Toxapex has never had spikes, is susceptible to paralysis, is not immune to spikes, and is susceptible to knock off - there are no similarities beyond "defensive Pokémon with above average healing ability"
It's had Toxic Spikes, which have been a real (if not niche) option on it for a while. Gliscor is also exploitable given that it can't run everything it wants to (knock, spikes, stealth rock, eq, taunt, etc.). The two are very comparable, you just don't want to compare them because it makes you look like a scrub.
Please stop implying that the playerbase is incompetent or stupid for wanting action on Gliscor by saying "HO brainrot".
The offensive landscape of SV OU is SIGNIFICANTLY different than that of previous generations. Gliscor has always been a mon that can create a lot of free turns by virtue of it's bulk and typing, but in this gen it got spikes which makes the free turns it creates to generate incredible amounts of value. Spikes and Toxic make it very difficult for offense to break Gliscor, and you'll often see it funnel a lot resources from them,slowly killing momentum from the offense teams. Secondly, the actual offensive mons we have in this meta are simply worse into Gliscor than those that existed in previous gens. Valiant, Iron Moth, non sub Zamazenta, Sneasler, non taunt RM, Dragonite, to an extent even Kingambit, none of these are good into Gliscor.
Previous gens had Ash-Gren, Keldeo, Ice Beam Clef (Clef can't fit Ice Beam much), strong ice punch pokemon like M-Lop and M-Medi, Kyurem, Weavile (I am aware of the uptick in Weavile but it still remains niche), viable Crawdaunt, specs Tapu Lele, Tapu Fini to set Misty Terrain and block Toxic, more viable Rotom Wash, Ferrothorn to set on it and punish stay ins with hazards not to mention HP ICE Zapdos,Tornadus etc and there was better removal to stop them from being worn down easily. Our breakers that can push past Gliscor include Ogerpon (which is absolutely ripped apart by hazard, is very prone to Toxic and is probably problematic in its own right) , Walking Wake (which is now used less outside of Sun and HO , and often carries Specs and Booster so yeah still ripped apart by hazards), Greninja (downtrending) and Enam-I (fallen off an absolute cliff, weak to SR and can't break SpDef) . Oh also Gliscor can simply Tera out of the weakness to it's breaker, toxic it and laugh as the breaker dies painfully.
Also how is it "HO bias" if Gliscor's stranglehold extends over to Balance, hell it affects balance way worse. All balance must be built around being very resiliant towards hazards and toxics, and the best way to do it is to build your own Gliscor balance. If you're building anything remotely bulky right now you better have a good fucking reason to not run Gliscor. Right now is the most homogenized bulky playstyles have ever been, and it's almost singlehandedly due to Gliscor. We've seen teams abusing Gliscor to the fullest which don't have Ghold on them at all, and there's been replays where that thing sets all three spikes over and over despite them being spun away by Tusk or Court Changed by Cinder as it spreads toxics all over and eventually wins the hazard game, WITHOUT Ghold. Let me tell you, pre DLC at least Tusk wasn't dogshit at spinning cause there was no Gliscor that always beat it.
So please, the playerbase isn't stupid that we can't break a defensive pokemon, our options of breaking it throughout the course of a game are more limited than ever before, and it's negative effect is far more pronounced on Balance than Offense.
Have a nice day.
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No way are you saying Toxic Spikes have the same effect on the game as Spikes, no way are you presenting "has more than 4 extremely useful moves and can pick and choose based on what it wants to do, making it very versatile" as a negative, no way are you accusing people who say that these two Pokémon function differently and crticize how Gliscor turns balance and stall matches into knock off chicken as "HO brain rot," this is unreal. I'm literally a stall main, massive benefactor of Gliscor, arguing it's a stupid Pokémon because the mirrors are the most dull unintuitive and timewasting gameplay we've seen all generation. Gliscor is a mind numbing Pokémon for ALL team styles to play against, ESPECIALLY slower paced teams (in fact HO usually has an easier time breaking it since they run stuff like Booster Tusk and Wogerpon)
This is going to be anecdotal experience but it really didnt. Pex' best answer wasnt a mirror matchup, and pex was a lot less present than Gliscor is in gen 9.
Edit: this is only discussing Gen 8 as I have not played gen 6 or 7 OU
FuturePort Glowking was very common and didnt care about Pex. Roost HDB Koko could sit on pex forever and force it out, and pivots to gain momentum. You had Tapu Lele too, Fini answered most Pex sets (and with whirlpool + taunt, 1v1d it), Volcanion made scald spam less good. Heatran could 1v1 it with Magma Storm +Taunt. Very rarely was a team's best option intk Pex their own Pex.
Pex also only got TSpikea which were a lot easier to remove by either carrying a grounded poison type, or using one of the defoggers. Gen 8 has a lot more removal.
Gen 9 is a very different metagame.
The reason Gliscor is kicking up so mich discourse is because it benefits so much from meta trends and the gen 9 environment (tera, lack of removal options, gholdengo). It' become really good and has high presence, but unlike pex there are very few answers into it that can threaten or 1v1 it while also not getting toxic'd and put on a timer, and not minding losing its item. Gliscor really is its own worst enemy.
Plus it can tera to remove its key 4x ice weakness, something pex couldnt do in previous gens
I know burden of proof for ban is technically on the pro-ban side but I'd love to know what your answers are into Gliscor
Lastly, I find it kinda amusing that you keep saying HO brainrot this HO brainrot that, when HO has arguably the best matchup into Gliscor. Stall and Balance teams rely on chip damage to deal with defensive mons, something thay Gliscor doesnt care much for. Gliscor can only really pick one defensive side to be unkillable in, and HO can overwhelm it, especially with taunt or sub on setup mons
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Damn, I think we may have found out some of the reason you keeping getting "harassed" on the ladder if this is how you constantly act lol
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