fun fact: in the 1958 movie "the blob", the titular monster is defeated by freezing it and transporting it to the arctic, which was said to have stopped the blob "as long as the arctic stays cold". the decline of sea ice in the arctic started massively accelerating in 1996 [1], the same year that pokemon red and green were first released. and who's one of the most dominant pokemon in gen 1 ou? that's right, chansey
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
And Gen IX is when Ice got a massive buff in the form of Snow....
It's all coming together.
My opinions on the scorpion boi have changed, i now proudly steal games thanks to its assets like toxic, stab earthquake and good defensive typing so if it gets banned im severely screwed
Who got indirectly nerfed to near irrelevance in gen 9? the chansey line, so as long as the arctic (which is cold because its full of ICE and SNOW) stays cold the ”blob” will never be reawakened Right? Start connecting the dots
? Blissey is stall's safe Ninetales answer, and Blissey is better this month than it's been all gen, it's still a stall staple with a bunch of extremely important matchups
skarmory already has lower physical bulk than corviknight and has worse abilities and special bulk so overall all its worse and is just a hazard setter that mimics an A- level pokemon , so if it doesn’t get roost as egg move in gen 9, its done, period,
You’re close
it has lower special bulk than corv, the physical bulk is definitely higher
I calculated both at max defense and hp against great
tusk’s close combat and corvknight had a 95%to be 4hko’d, while skarmory was guaranteed one, even if skarm is tankier, its basically neck to neck because corvs great hp and skarms below average hp
This is completely false, Blood Moon beat Blissey anyways (Blood Moon is favored in RNG, had taunt and press sets) and Blissey is a genuine OU level pokemon and has been all generation. Blissey being NU says nothing about it's viability in OU. On high weighted stats Blissey had over 5% usage In the HOME metagame and only wasn't OU because lower ladder didn't use stall as much.
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 138-163 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 53% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 112-133 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 30.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ahem.
Anyways your take on skarm is lol. All Corv is good for in a Ghold meta is pivoting and trying to check stuff with body press/brave bird. Set up sets bulk up are way too slow nowadays and iron defense sets are inferior to skarm's very same set. Since it struggles to defog consistently, it struggles to be active and facilitate teammates. Skarm can actually do things even when walled, such as spiking (it'll be great at this btw) even if Ghold comes in. So it'll make actual progress.
It's true that it didn't rise because of BM specifically, but saying it was a genuine OU level all gen is bullshit. It's been fringe at best for most of the gen, being a staple on stall only which is a play style that has been, for most of gen 9, not consistent. You claim it being NU doesn't mean anything to its viability and then pull up ladder usage stats.
While the discussion between brain-rotted HO players and brain-rotted RegenCore players (yes, let's face it, both are equally mindless and while I don't personally have any ill will against neither play-style, it's too ridiculous to see someone complain about HO-mindset while defending RegenCores, the most mindless form of defense/stall around) is certainly fascinating [/sarcasm], I'd like to return to the Ghold-Glis shennanigans:
--OH WAIT.
Gholdengo doesn't need to be on either's team for its presence to be felt. I cannot stress this enough. When you see teams without Gholdengo but with Gliscor thrive against an opponent without a single Defogger and where the Spinner (if they have one) is made with Gholdengo and Gholdengo alone in mind, know who's responsible for that.
At the end of the day, though, this discussion should only be not about which of them deserves tiering action, BOTH DO, but rather who do we hit first.
[PS: for the record, please do note that I was not seriously critizicing their teams, just being overly dramatic]
_____
I mean, their teams were pretty lacking. I mean, who doesn't build a team with defoggers? Specially a defogger than can take Toxic or Knock Off in a meta where Gliscor is predominant. It's not like there's any reason to consider at teambuilding that dedicating a slot to a defogger would be a bad idea in a given matchup.
--OH WAIT.
Gholdengo doesn't need to be on either's team for its presence to be felt. I cannot stress this enough. When you see teams without Gholdengo but with Gliscor thrive against an opponent without a single Defogger and where the Spinner (if they have one) is made with Gholdengo and Gholdengo alone in mind, know who's responsible for that.
At the end of the day, though, this discussion should only be not about which of them deserves tiering action, BOTH DO, but rather who do we hit first.
[PS: for the record, please do note that I was not seriously critizicing their teams, just being overly dramatic]
_____
Votes usually take around 48h to come out, but come out earlier if a conclusion is reached beforehand. Basically, the closer the voting is, the later within that timeframe the result comes out, which makes Bloodmoon an exception as it was banned with a 90+% Ban majority and thus the result came out very quickly.
I said if skarmory lost roost then it would be bad, i just said corv was better
Hey man you've been already called out nicely before, let's avoid the one liners and the multiple replies within the hour
DaddyBuzzwole I read your post before and it was very enlightening, and I'd like to stress that mine was just a thought experiment I did while watching Barcelona lose the game today. I know that comparing Gen 8 to 9 is comparing apples and oranges, but my point was more akin to the fact that I feel that sometimes we believe that there are mons who are supposed to be OU forever, but maybe OU is just a construct. Is OU standard play or is OU the tier where we have Pex, Lando, Tran and Chomp? Because at this rate the UUbers idea that's floating around is not going to be too farfetched, the game is the game and if standard play leans towards HO then thats what it is, I'd just like to have a clear heads-up that what we're doing here is build a tier where Blissey and Ttar are viable. Ofc I play at a much lower level than most ppl here, but I am enjoying seeing the Gliscor/Gholdengo dynamics, the Manaphy/Wogerpon dynamics, the Roaring Moon of it all... Idk. I really think that we're going in the right direction with the bans but at some point we're not playing OU but molding OU into something the community is used to, and I feel like so many ppl here would be happier playing UU but don't just bc of how the tiers are labelled.
Stall has always been good ever since it was optimized a couple months into HOME. And on the usage stats, usage is literally what makes a pokemon OU...
My epiphany is this: A huge problem is Booster Energy.
It allows Valient to have the benefit of Scarf without locking itself into a move. And so forth with other Pokemon and their boosts that mimic a choice item.
This is why Spikes are so annoying this gen, mons can use Booster Energy to really capitalize on them.
What do you all think of Booster Energy potentially getting banned? Do remember that this would not de-facto ban Quark Drive Pokemon, they just only be able to get a boost in Sun.
It allows Valient to have the benefit of Scarf without locking itself into a move. And so forth with other Pokemon and their boosts that mimic a choice item.
This is why Spikes are so annoying this gen, mons can use Booster Energy to really capitalize on them.
What do you all think of Booster Energy potentially getting banned? Do remember that this would not de-facto ban Quark Drive Pokemon, they just only be able to get a boost in Sun.
The issue with Gholdengo's effect on the meta isn't that its being used on all teams, as it isn't even on half of them. The issue is the opportunity cost of running most forms of hazard removal. Tusk is the only form of hazard removal that can beat it 1v1 (given correct prediction w/ air balloon), all the others' best option is to pivot out without removing the hazards. Because your removal won't work in 1/3rd of games, most players will opt to use more consist options like Magic Guard or spamming boots, like you saw in the replay. Now, you could argue that Gliscor is a problem due to the ease of stacking hazards as well as massive amounts of other progress-forcing methods it has. In this replay you could see that Carkoala's Tusk did manage to get off an emergency spin using its Tera. However, Sylveon's Gliscor just manages to get up hazards again as soon as it got back in, and Tusk's lack of recovery means that it only gets one off.
Honestly, I think Gliscor's feeling of brokenness is due to Tera as much as anything, and I'm not even talking about it using Tera Water and eating my stupid weavile's goddamn fucking icicle crash YOU BASTARD rgghhhhhh!... The thing is, Tera makes traditional counters based on actually KOing a pokemon kinda difficult, as emphasized by Kingambit (OU's best Fairy type). To counter this, we've seen an uptick of Universal Counterplay, stuff that can't be negated by a type change, like Encore, Wisp, Sub, and TrickBarb. It doesn't matter if your Kingambit can't be killed by my Valiant after Teraing, because you're not gonna do anything after getting encore'd into Sucker Punch! This is also the reason hazard spam is so prevalent in the first place; It's a lot easier to 2HKO a Tera'd Kingambit with a neutral move at 75% than at 100% Gliscor's problem is that it's less effected or immune to all of these due to PH. Because, weirdly, it's actually not that bulky; it is forced to run physical defense or fold to the various physical attackers we have (Gambit, RM, Ogerpon, Rboom, and Ice Spinner Tusk all have meaningful damage thresholds), and that means stuff like Pult, Enam, and Zapados can all beat it 1v1. The issue is that these pokemon are affected by all the stuff I mentioned before, and thus they don't survive long enough to actually deal with it. If Tera was banned, I think we'd see a lot less of this crazy powercreep since you could effectively check things again, and Gliscor wouldn't be so much of an issue since the things that check it check it a lot harder and the things that beat it (clefable, Corv) start becoming a lot more common. Then ban Gambit, depending on how the meta evolves suspect Ghold, and you're all set.
Honestly, I think Gliscor's feeling of brokenness is due to Tera as much as anything, and I'm not even talking about it using Tera Water and eating my stupid weavile's goddamn fucking icicle crash YOU BASTARD rgghhhhhh!... The thing is, Tera makes traditional counters based on actually KOing a pokemon kinda difficult, as emphasized by Kingambit (OU's best Fairy type). To counter this, we've seen an uptick of Universal Counterplay, stuff that can't be negated by a type change, like Encore, Wisp, Sub, and TrickBarb. It doesn't matter if your Kingambit can't be killed by my Valiant after Teraing, because you're not gonna do anything after getting encore'd into Sucker Punch! This is also the reason hazard spam is so prevalent in the first place; It's a lot easier to 2HKO a Tera'd Kingambit with a neutral move at 75% than at 100% Gliscor's problem is that it's less effected or immune to all of these due to PH. Because, weirdly, it's actually not that bulky; it is forced to run physical defense or fold to the various physical attackers we have (Gambit, RM, Ogerpon, Rboom, and Ice Spinner Tusk all have meaningful damage thresholds), and that means stuff like Pult, Enam, and Zapados can all beat it 1v1. The issue is that these pokemon are affected by all the stuff I mentioned before, and thus they don't survive long enough to actually deal with it. If Tera was banned, I think we'd see a lot less of this crazy powercreep since you could effectively check things again, and Gliscor wouldn't be so much of an issue since the things that check it check it a lot harder and the things that beat it (clefable, Corv) start becoming a lot more common. Then ban Gambit, depending on how the meta evolves suspect Ghold, and you're all set.
And so we have slain another beast. Everyone, celebrate all the ways you know how.
This is a fair point yeah, Corviknight can mostly ignore whatever Gliscor throws at it... but the same can be said for Gliscor. what's Corv going to do even if it can run defog? It can't hurt Gliscor back. And even if Corv defogs, Gliscor gets so much entry points as others have mentioned - it's immune to spikes, only takes 12% from rocks, takes negligible damage from chip dmg coming from defensive mons / resisted hits and is a status absorber. It can continuously set up spikes if it wants.
Basically, yes Corv can defog the spikes. Against most spikers that's fine, as they usually lack reliable recovery (Ting Lu, HSam), are frail and can't set up multiple times throughout a match (Meow, Greninja, HSam) or are very passive outside of setting spikes (Clodsire). These traits mean that Corv user can win the war on spikes via positioning and pressuring the spiker.
Gliscor, however, is much, much more resilient than any other spike user we have. There's a reason almost nobody is running other spikers right now.
Also I'm not saying or arguing that Gholdengo is fine, I am in the anti-Ghold camp, but imo Gliscor would be a big, likely overbearing presence regardless of Dengo
if i had a coin for every Gen 9 dragon type that fell to UU only to later get banned to Ubers I would have two coins
which tbh isn't much but it's interesting that it happened twice
which tbh isn't much but it's interesting that it happened twice
Yay, this suspect is out of the way (which is all that matters cause who cares about what happens to Moon anyways lmao)
Now let’s finally ban Kingambit and Gholdengo.
Good, one more broken mon gone. Can we deal with Gholdengo next?
this is so nonsensical even more than your average post
I still remember your "gambit wasn't banned for taking the tier hostage, fake suspect" allegations. RM is so hard to check, there is no reason for him being ou with or without hazard control being viable. He will continue to spam koff in any case because is so hard not only to check, but also to revenge kill since he is 119 bst + can ddance + can have booster energy. He does not have a great defense but with his typing, can resist both sucker punch, aqua jet and grassy glide
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Grassy Terrain: 167-197 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
stop spreading misinformation on a metagame u don't know nothing about, the only real 3 pokemon used in every team is chansey tauros lax, no idea what u expect in a metagame based on 151 pokemon once u remove the nfe and the two ubers
probably someone linked the bengay's thread (same thing that happened last time with kokoloko) and u automatically dediced that gen 8 is boring lmao, in every gen if 2 stall/balanced teams without wall/stallbreaker (there are many viable ones for gen 8) face each other, u have a boring match
edit: RM just got banned lmao
- Status