where are you fitting encore on clef over wish/protect/twave/moonblast/rocks?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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It also helped that one of it's best checks that also outclassed it, Baxcalibur, got banned. And yes, Knock Off is that good anyways
there are a million things that can do speed control and a billion things that can set rocks, you don't strictly need twave or rocks on clef
Fax. Even in Teraless, a mon like moon with 140 attack and 120 speed would have quick banned within the first month in any other generation.
That being said, Knock was an insane buff for it since it packed a lot of Utility vs most its checks. Zapdos takes like, 75% from boosted booster Knock AND becomes vulnerable to SR. I think Moon being considered a borderline C tank mon in the previous meta was a bit of exaggeration, but Knock took it up two - three ranks minimum.
+6 4 Def Garganacl Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 126-149 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
IDPress is idpressing in this matchup, even if you don't have tech for garg like encore or knock moonblast spam is still forcing it to burn its recover pp at a similar rate, not to mention garg basically has to burn a turn against it to check if its the physdef unaware set and it's wasting its time setting up anyway.
also cm basically forces it out, even the spdef spreads, and it can be hard to tell which set it is on preview.
Maybe its just me, but I'd swap out Protect or Rocks for Encore. Not that either of those don't have value, but with so many set up sweepers in the tier, the value Encore has is immense.
Do you think it'd be worth it to have Cryogonal hold a Lum Berry vs Gliscor? That way, you get one chance to avoid Toxic and you can save Tera for another mon
You also are missing the forest for the trees. Yes, Knock Off helped make it better. But it was a lot more than just getting Knock Off. One of its best checks and a mon that competed hard for the same niche, Baxcalibur, was banned (for good reason). The hazard meta made Moon become even more threatening too. Hazards have only gotten harder to deal with, which is great for moon. That extra chip damage means the world for a mon that wants to sweep.
It also helped that the ways the meta moved in terms of drops and rises were good for it. Meowscarada dipping in favor of Waterpon was a great pick up. Rain fell off, which made it easier for it to sweep without fearing a revenge kill. Veil was a great boon for a vicious set up sweeper. Dragapult usage also went down, which was a great plus for Moon. Moon didnt have some untapped potential: it just found a meta perfect for it to ravage.
i'm honestly unsure if that is the case, because corv can technically beat it if ghold isn't able to be paired with it as long as Gliscor isn't packing SD, nor was it a problem in past gens were removal was more splashable
I do think even if Gliscor gets banned it should be tested again if ghold gets booted, because there is past prescedent that shows that it could be balanced if hazard removal becomes easier to use, as with that its counterplay would become easier to slot onto teams.
I personally think that Gliscor maybe should go, but should definitely be retested if Ghold goes for being unhealthy (Ghold isn't even broken really its just flat out unhealthy, because good as gold is just like that and enables so much bullshit.), as I think Gliscor becomes easier to deal with as its counterplay wouldn't have to worry about being chipped with spikes or toxic spikes as much.
I understand why players want Gliscor gone, and I think I can understand both sides, but personally I think there is merit to retesting it if Ghold gets the boot as well, if Gliscor ends up getting the boot
that might be a good idea but it's weak to rocks pre-tera and serves as a spinner so i prefer to put boots on it
Soft Sand + Tera Ground looks like the best Cryogonal set for OU. Pair it with U-Turn Corviknight to switch safely in.
that's actually kinda heat and freeze-dry + ground is insane coverage but it's still vulnerable to toxic so it's not quite as good against gliscor as it could be. it does threaten ghold, though…
Theorymonning time!!
Assuming that in this scenario, Gliscor wins the Ubers allegations and Zygarde returns with the milk in DLC2, I think Zygarde 10% might be viable in OU as a Glisc check (iirc Zydog was RU last gen). Running minimum Speed EVs makes the Dawg slower than a good chunk of Gliscor sets, which allows it to bait out a Protect and hit it with Core Enforcer to disable Poison Heal and hit for an extra chunk of damage. Thousand Arrows + Thousand Waves could pair well with that since Arrows lets Glisc get hit by Waves, preventing it from switching, after which you stack up Coils and sweep. Tera Steel would (in exchange for EQ weakness) get rid of Zygarde's arguably mid-ass typing, make it immune to Gliscor's Toxic, and resist its other STAB. Zygarde might even run Iron Ball to underspeed defensive Gliscor sets.
Assuming that in this scenario, Gliscor wins the Ubers allegations and Zygarde returns with the milk in DLC2, I think Zygarde 10% might be viable in OU as a Glisc check (iirc Zydog was RU last gen). Running minimum Speed EVs makes the Dawg slower than a good chunk of Gliscor sets, which allows it to bait out a Protect and hit it with Core Enforcer to disable Poison Heal and hit for an extra chunk of damage. Thousand Arrows + Thousand Waves could pair well with that since Arrows lets Glisc get hit by Waves, preventing it from switching, after which you stack up Coils and sweep. Tera Steel would (in exchange for EQ weakness) get rid of Zygarde's arguably mid-ass typing, make it immune to Gliscor's Toxic, and resist its other STAB. Zygarde might even run Iron Ball to underspeed defensive Gliscor sets.
You are very much underselling Item Removal in a Metagame based so heavily on Hazard stacking. Also, 17.5 doesn't sound like a high number, but it's a 20% Damage increase over Crunch on the first hit and marginally stronger across 2 attacks WHILE having said item removal utility. The item removal also significantly reduces the ability to switch safely into Moon, whether for the higher damage taken or other ripple effects such as losing Boots (Spikes vulnerability in switching into other attacks later), Leftovers (putting down recovery when often surviving a Base 139 Booster mon was a tall order) or other side gigs like Choice Scarf (not that many outran a potentially +1 Moon as is).
On Booster sets maybe you could argue it's a marginal increase, but this was very significant for things like Banded sets, which could now force progress through means besides raw damage output in the early and mid-game, while having to be responded to VERY differently than late game sweeping Booster. Moon as a mon was very much buffed by that one move, as it afforded greater utility and power, and others have mentioned meta trends in its favor like Baxcalibur's ban, Waterpon displacing Meowscarada, and Gliscor kicking Hazard spam up to 11.
What Moon did pre-DLC was well known. The DLC gave it a move that improved those known jobs, and gave the Meta a bunch of changes that favored what Moon did. It showed up on multiple surveys before the UUBL drop so it's not like "Roaring Moon can be a concern to the Meta" was a new proposition with the Teal Mask. You'd have a better argument pointing to that since Garg was also on Surveys, to say "it was concerning before but trends turned against it for a while" as an angle about how it might still be a problem.
Come on, Gliscor can’t be having you all down bad enough to legitimately consider Tera Ground Soft Sand Cryogonal. Gholdengo, I understand, but you can’t be serious about taking these kinds of measures against Gliscor…
I mean, it beats Zapdos, scares Tusk, damages heavily several Water Mons, Kingambit doesn,t switch-in, it has way more uses apart from being a spinner.
Cryogonal is better vs Manaphy than it is vs Gliscor anyways. Fast Haze takes away all manaphy's boost and Freeze Dry does like, 40% which is way better than other mons like Empoleon and Milotic, which have massive issues vs Tail Glow Manaphy.
Cryo doesn't have any room for Soft Sand Tera Ground I think, since you need Freeze Dry, Haze, and Recover. Maybe dropping Spin is worth it I guess.
Nope, in fact Blissey doesn't counter Bloodmoon at all, she's just the only possible thing Stall could send out against Bloodmoon to any success
the "niche" is blanket checking special attackers, including ones capable of setting up since she can keep pace with Calm Mind. Stall needs Blissey specifically to check Walking Wake, Iron Moth, and Gholdengo most notably
I see someone is not high enough on the ladder to run into competent players using Sinistcha. There are also team structures that by design do not offensively pressure pokemon, is your proposed solution "offense becomes the only viable archetype?"
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This thread now feels like the moment in a thriller movie where everyone starts to go crazy from the tension.
That can't just be me, is it?
That can't just be me, is it?
I feel like this thread is having a fever dream with Soft Sand Cryo and Min speed Zydog with Core Enforcer.
"Are Zapdos and Buzzwole (SM), Tyranitar and Scizor (BW), Skarmory and Lando-T (BW), or Tapu Fini and Ferrothorn (SS) themselves considered problematic presences in their respective Metas?"
No, none of these are considered problematic in their respective tiers.
"
This is where I think the Manaphy and Ogerpon-W comparison falls flat: The 4 you listed are (theoretically or otherwise) problematic Pokemon that are severely hampered by Pokemon that are considered reasonable to use in the tier (neither broken themselves nor extremely niche outside of checking the former). Meanwhile the two you choose to cite for Gliscor are Pokemon that themselves consistently make decent scores as problems on the Survey, which would suggest these are not healthy presences that also restrict a very problematic Pokemon, but unhealthy Pokemon hampering ANOTHER unhealthy Pokemon (more cynically a "broken checks broken" scenario)."
This is the best argument you make, but I explained why I didnt consider either of these 2 to be straight up broken in my post.
"A better subject for Weavile might have been Melmetal, which was suspected late in SwSh due to a highly controversial ease in trading on even its bad match-ups. This would be more apt in showing one Pokemon people didn't like the influence of being a limiter on another of the sort."
LOL. First you ask if Ferrothorn and Tapu Fini are considered unhealthy presences in SS (leading to broken checks broken situation), and then you mention Melmetal as a better example? When, like you said, is considered controversial by the player base, and was even suspect tested at the end of the generation.
"In the original post you cite "without Gliscor we lose one of the most consistent structures," but this is to assume a consistent team type is worth retaining an extremely centralizing Pokemon or structure, which does not feel in line with how previous Generations or even this one have tiered things.
If anything I consider this a contradiction, because subsequently you note
Stating that HDB spam is a playstyle that is highly consistent and an argument against banning Gliscor, while simultaneously suggesting it is not healthy for this to be one of the styles people are restricted to playing to perform effectively in the current metagame. I won't presume to know which of the two is your position but these points do not feel like they support each other."
Yes, I claim HDB spam is a highly consistent strategy, and yes, I claim it is not healthy for it to be one of the few consistent styles. There is no contradiction here, it is a very consistent strategy, but it´s not healthy for it to be pretty much mandatory on any non HO build.
Well you know what? Since we’re really in on this fever dream, I’m gonna bring along my own anti-Gliscor tech. Specifically, anti-Gliscor technology just for countering my own Double Dance Gliscor set.
BEHOLD, THE ANTI-DUALWINGBEATGLISCOR-INATOR!!!
Foretold Saviour (Breloom) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Mach Punch
- Tera Blast
- Endure
Breloom acts as a lure for the Double Dance Gliscor set by being 4x weak to Dual Wingbeat. When predicting Dual Wingbeat, just click Endure and then click the Tera button next turn to completely eviscerate the bloodthirsty bat-scorpion-crab thing.
Mentality of every madman voting for gliscor sus
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Yes, my argument was that Ferrothorn and Tapu Fini are NOT unhealthy, making them inapt subjects to compare to Ogerpon and Manaphy who are debatably unhealthy. I cited Melmetal as a better example to compare to those two because like Ogerpon and Manaphy, Melmetal was also a suspect-worthy/controversial Pokemon that was keeping another strong mon from running too wild. This is not a defense of Melmetal as healthy or unhealthy for Gen 8, but to say it would be a more fitting simile for what I was understanding your comparison in the other cases to be.
The contradiction/disparity I refer to is the fact that your Gliscor section, you state a Gliscor ban would be a negative due to removing the consistent Gliscor-Hazard Stack balance as an option, citing its role as a Knock off Absorber as well, and then only cite how other Pokemon in this role like Ting-Lu would take up the mantle. This in total makes it seem like you consider a Gliscor ban to be a negative as stated, or at least to have no positive consequence. This feels at odds with the expressed point that you also consider HDB spam (which Gliscor HEAVILY encourages yet exploits) to be unhealthy, which would suggest Gliscor being removed from the tier is a positive by removing a factor that heavily narrows team styles.
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