It also may enable some Rapid spinners that couldnt touch Ghold previously.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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The problem with Gholdengo is that it prevents almost all forms of hazard removal.
Defog? Good as Gold blocks that.
Rapid spin? Ghost type.
Another problem is that there are no reliable Gholdengo counters that are also hazard removers. The fact that Maushold is being used solely for the fact that it can reliably remove hazards is telling enough. I believe that it’s a Gholdengo problem.
Defog? Good as Gold blocks that.
Rapid spin? Ghost type.
Another problem is that there are no reliable Gholdengo counters that are also hazard removers. The fact that Maushold is being used solely for the fact that it can reliably remove hazards is telling enough. I believe that it’s a Gholdengo problem.
On this note, how is Hisuan Avalugg doing? i've seen one or two people using it (not very well, mind you, but still).
hisuian avalugg is Not worthy mention in any thread. Cryogonal is maybe p nice offensively to answer to the sr setter.but likeits an Ice tyype
great tusk is the only viable rapid spinner for a reason, the thing is is that a lot of other spinners can touch gholdengo but the problem is that they are all bad. torkoal is neat as a spinner but its also weak to hazards and cant run HDB, iron treads is niche and outclassed by the aforementioned great tusk and everything else is just straight up not good
friendly reminder that maushold also loses to gholdengo since its so damn bulky it easily takes a technician bite and can dish out massive damage with make it rain in return. so what happens is that you tidy up the hazards as gholdengo comes in and then you either risk losing the 1v1 or switch out and just have gliscor, samurott-H, ting-lu, etc. just get the hazards back up later. repeat process until maushold dies to spikes chip, since it cant run HDB to negate hazards or else the threat of population bomb becomes much less of a factor in dealing with it
While I agree that Tera is a symptomatic problem, you can't seriously be considering banning a move with low distribution and limited success in OU because of Manaphy? There are only three mons in OU that can successfully pull off Stored Power sets, four of which exist outside of OU. Manaphy has been the only premier threat in recent time that garnered enough controversy to even consider the idea. Furthermore, Magearna, which has been banned on a similar principle, had different circumstances. Its sheer set and coverage variety contributed to its quickban, in addition to its Stored Power sets and newfound utility in addition to Tera. Manaphy has a linear offensive role; but its well-rounded bulk, coverage variety, Stored Power, Tail Glow, and Tera make its offensive sets too imposing. The most potent example of Stored Power and Tera, however, is by and large Espathra; whose entire existence revolved around that combination. Nonetheless, each has its own circumstances that have made it unbalanced. You can't attempt to remove Stored Power because of a few problematic mons with other unbalanced elements that require external solutions.
If you were simply advocating for a Tera ban then I would agree, but this solution is unhealthy. The same line of thinking can be applied to just about everything we've banned, that "if (x) is removed from (y) then (y) is balanced." It lacks a holistic view of each individual threat and Stored Power as a whole.
tera steel cryogonal might be legitimately the single best answer against the standard defensive gliscor set. freeze-dry exerts massive pressure on it, rapid spin gets rid of spikes, levitate prevents it from being hit by what is typically gliscor's only attack, and tera steel prevents it from being poisoned. you could also go for tera poison instead, which has all the same benefits but allows you to tank tusk's fighting stab at the cost of not resisting a million other things
I of course think that independently Tera is broken.
I have also believed going back to last gen that the move Stored Power itself is problematic. It has led to two generations of Magearna bans, as well as broken Espartha. It will be Manaphy’s undoing as well.
I obviously won’t put stored power up there with Baton Pass. However, in a shitshow of a meta with Tera, it certainly isn’t healthy. The only true checks to the stored power + Tera strategy are the moves Encore and Trick.
(Disclaimer: I don't have the most unbiased opinions of all Pokemon discussed in this post or the preceding ones it is continuing from, but aim for my arguments to focus on the way they are outlined or described by said posts since I disagree with the argumentation in some places even if I share the position on several).
I don't know how fondly those particular metas are looked back on (and I know at least Kartana is highly controversial in SuMo OU in Hindsight), but there are SIGNIFICANT differences I find in your comparisons. A major thing I would immediately go to: Are Zapdos and Buzzwole (SM), Tyranitar and Scizor (BW), Skarmory and Lando-T (BW), or Tapu Fini and Ferrothorn (SS) themselves considered problematic presences in their respective Metas? I could imagine maybe Tyranitar having that said given Sand's prominence in the Weather War meta and historical viability for Gens 3-5, but I've not heard discussions of the other 7 as unhealthy presences themselves.
This is where I think the Manaphy and Ogerpon-W comparison falls flat: The 4 you listed are (theoretically or otherwise) problematic Pokemon that are severely hampered by Pokemon that are considered reasonable to use in the tier (neither broken themselves nor extremely niche outside of checking the former). Meanwhile the two you choose to cite for Gliscor are Pokemon that themselves consistently make decent scores as problems on the Survey, which would suggest these are not healthy presences that also restrict a very problematic Pokemon, but unhealthy Pokemon hampering ANOTHER unhealthy Pokemon (more cynically a "broken checks broken" scenario).
A better subject for Weavile might have been Melmetal, which was suspected late in SwSh due to a highly controversial ease in trading on even its bad match-ups. This would be more apt in showing one Pokemon people didn't like the influence of being a limiter on another of the sort.
In the original post you cite "without Gliscor we lose one of the most consistent structures," but this is to assume a consistent team type is worth retaining an extremely centralizing Pokemon or structure, which does not feel in line with how previous Generations or even this one have tiered things.
If anything I consider this a contradiction, because subsequently you note
Stating that HDB spam is a playstyle that is highly consistent and an argument against banning Gliscor, while simultaneously suggesting it is not healthy for this to be one of the styles people are restricted to playing to perform effectively in the current metagame. I won't presume to know which of the two is your position but these points do not feel like they support each other.
The latter does not contradict or disprove the former assertion: Gliscor is objectively more consistent as a Hazard stacker than Ting-Lu or Samurott-H. Whether or not Hazard/Dengo is still a problem with them, it is DEFINITELY weaker for using them instead of Gliscor as the setters, and if anything, Gholdengo being removed would make Gliscor MORE valuable over them as a Hazard option, since removal being even marginally easier increases the value of a Mon that can set them repeatedly by staying alive, vs a mon with Longevity concerns or outright frality to the point of Suicide-Leading. I genuinely cannot see how one can protest a Hazard game with Ting-Lu/Samurott while advocating to keep Gliscor in the same Generation of factors, especially when it flips the cores from "two mons fearing the best Spinner's STABs" to "forcing a Coverage move that is useless against the other member" on something like Great Tusk.
I also think the roadmap implicitly described here is essentially 3 rights to make a left, saying we should not focus Gliscor first, as Manaphy acts as a solid check alongside Ogerpon-W (who in turn checks Manaphy as well).
This is followed by suggesting that if Gholdengo is banned and Hazard stack is less prominent, Ogerpon-W could become broken, which by the previous suggestions would probably heavily empower Manaphy and Gliscor (especially if a broken Ogerpon gets banned and potentially makes Manaphy banworthy as well). Essentially, if Gliscor is busted in the current Meta state, and you then are willing to posit a series of interactions that STILL leave it busted in a roadmap that follows Gholdengo being tested first anyway... why not act on the mon that is probably unhealthy both currently and in the hypothetical?
Genuine question, is this to advocate not voting ban on Gliscor until Gholdengo is tackled, given it proposes he might-but-might-not be broken in the Meta that pans out post-Gholdengo? Or is this just to voice that you would have preferred Gholdengo be acted on first even if Gliscor is also not a healthy piece of the game?
losing to stored power on anything other than espathra, magearna or manaphy is straight-up a skill issue. just get better at offensively pressuring your opponent's setup mons, or using taunt/encore/trick, it's not hard
I think it's absurd that gliscor is getting suspected before sneasler. Gliscor is good and it always will be, spikes don't send it over the edge in my eyes. On a similar note, Kingambit is an example of some of the flaws of the suspect testing system, because many of the players who are mid level but not good enough to get suspect requirements *wanted kingambit banned* and that likely would have made a difference
Lugg-H is actually kinda nice if you're OK with committing your Tera on it. It's like offensive Tusk but it trades speed for Ice STAB and recovery. Spin is nice, as is a positive matchup vs Gliscor, and with Strong Jaw Crunch or Tera Ground EQ it can OHKO no-bulk Gholdengo. Here is the set:
@ 
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
NMI allows its ice spinner to pressure tusk since it is unfortunately kinda weak. (side note- I was REALLY hoping gamefreak would add MG like radical red did, 120 BP with 100% accuracy. It happened before with sharpness/blademaster, so I had high hopes but now it sucks D:)
It can also perform a nice ID/BP set, though it is mostly outclassed by Garg at this due to status immunity and better special bulk.
STOP LAUGH REACTING ME PLEASE IM SERIOUS
@ Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
NMI allows its ice spinner to pressure tusk since it is unfortunately kinda weak. (side note- I was REALLY hoping gamefreak would add MG like radical red did, 120 BP with 100% accuracy. It happened before with sharpness/blademaster, so I had high hopes but now it sucks D:)
It can also perform a nice ID/BP set, though it is mostly outclassed by Garg at this due to status immunity and better special bulk.
STOP LAUGH REACTING ME PLEASE IM SERIOUS
didn't you also "not see the problem with bloodmoon"?
hisuian avalugg with never-melt ice is probably the most ridiculous thing i've seen being brought up today. just use regular avaluggLugg-H is actually kinda nice if you're OK with committing your Tera on it. It's like offensive Tusk but it trades speed for Ice STAB and recovery. Spin is nice, as is a positive matchup vs Gliscor, and with Strong Jaw Crunch or Tera Ground EQ it can OHKO no-bulk Gholdengo. Here is the set:
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
NMI allows its ice spinner to pressure tusk since it is unfortunately kinda weak. (side note- I was REALLY hoping gamefreak would add MG like radical red did, 120 BP with 100% accuracy. It happened before with sharpness/blademaster, so I had high hopes but now it sucks D:)
It can also perform a nice ID/BP set, though it is mostly outclassed by Garg at this due to status immunity and better special bulk.
STOP LAUGH REACTING ME PLEASE IM SERIOUS
Soiramio3000
Banned deucer.
then why is blissey still in OU?
didn't she rise to OU just to counter ursaluna black moon?
what other niche does she have?
The difference there is that bloodmoon died for his own sins and I readily admitted I probably wasn't high enough on ladder to see actually competent players use it. Gliscor dying for the sins of Gholdengo is like Prank Kids Meow Meow Mu dying for the sins of the adventure engine.
i have no idea what the latter half of this sentence means
Let me add onto my point about gambit, there is very little skill involved in a late game gambit win. You either have to stall out 8 sucker punches (impossibility without the power of clairvoyance) or attack on the turn they click anything else, which they have very little incentive to do in last mon scenarios. And once more, that also depends on the last mon, because if it's a wall they can click SD 3 times and kill it (unless it's donbozo I guess)
tldr the adventure engine were in the newer yugioh sets so they got another card banned instead
read the post again, slower this time
sir, most players wont understand the cancer that that engine can give in master duel when the pack first released.
anyways, this is pokemon and not yugioh, we didn't come here to talk about cards
Manaphy is not the issue.
then why aren't hatterene and clefable being looked at too? they can both viably run stored power and they're not broken with it. and what about corv? it gets power trip, which is just physical stored power without an immunity and should thus be considered more broken, and it doesn't even run it, and even if it did, it'd still be (according to some) c- overrated outlaw mud show bullshit goofy ass unusable garbage electivire in dpp ou levels of noob bait. and what of the other mons that are just not running the move despite having setup? why do they not run this supposedly broken move? if the move is broken, shouldn't it be a viable option on anything that gets it? and why are you the only one proclaiming it a problem? surely at least one other person would have noticed by now. do you consider yourself that much of a visionary, or do you just think everyone else is too dumb to see the problem?
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A serious Cryogonal mention? I never thought I’d see the day.
There are bigger fish to fry. You make a lot of presumptions based on things that haven’t happened yet. Not everything that is cheap will get addressed or it’s time to shine. There was certainly Stored Power Clefable, Demon Mew, and even Power Trip Corviknight cheesing their way through high ladder in Gens 7 and 8. Our buddy Roaring Moon just catapulted from UUBL to Ubers seemingly overnight (thank you new broken toy syndrome).
Garganacl is another broken cheap mon that has fallen out of favor due new-Toy meta trends.
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