Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Yeah, I fucked it up. I thought that contrary only affects leaf storm. I forgot that it reverses all stat changes even defog and letting Serperior gain evasion and cheese shit
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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no aggron??? this is mudsdale shit
Aside from signature moves, no move with wide distribution got brought back between updates
Just a quick thing on DLC-2 and unbans,
I personally believe NOTHING should be unbanned with the release of DLC-2.
We don't need last month's problems mucking up the format and further delaying the discussion and assessment of Tera post-DLC.
We don't need any of those horrid mons that were already banned. We can talk about welcoming back the moth and whatever else AFTER we make a decision on tera. We don't need known abusers providing the excuse of "wellllll X is the only reason tera is broekn. That's why it was banned. Tera isn't the problem, it's because you unbanned mon X or Y or Zygarde-100% or or or".
Until the tera suspect is over, everything banned belongs on that bench. The meta can re-introduce them later after the initial cleanup of DLC-2.
Based on what the generation already looks like, I'm calling this shot: 2 QBs by the council on new mons that just aren't balanced, 1 QB on a mon that gets some asinine move it never had before and never should have gotten, and then 1 suspect test of broken mon Alpha before the suspect test of tera.
After all of that, then we finally test tera, and the rest is the history of Gen 9.
I personally believe NOTHING should be unbanned with the release of DLC-2.
We don't need last month's problems mucking up the format and further delaying the discussion and assessment of Tera post-DLC.
We don't need any of those horrid mons that were already banned. We can talk about welcoming back the moth and whatever else AFTER we make a decision on tera. We don't need known abusers providing the excuse of "wellllll X is the only reason tera is broekn. That's why it was banned. Tera isn't the problem, it's because you unbanned mon X or Y or Zygarde-100% or or or".
Until the tera suspect is over, everything banned belongs on that bench. The meta can re-introduce them later after the initial cleanup of DLC-2.
Based on what the generation already looks like, I'm calling this shot: 2 QBs by the council on new mons that just aren't balanced, 1 QB on a mon that gets some asinine move it never had before and never should have gotten, and then 1 suspect test of broken mon Alpha before the suspect test of tera.
After all of that, then we finally test tera, and the rest is the history of Gen 9.
What do mean? Clearly Chien-Pao with Zacian-H tier stats, dual STAB, priority, and arguably better ability will be fine this time around.
Finchinator already said that they're doing a partial reset though, so there are some mons, such as Volcarona, that are definitely dropping down. I can see Iron Bundle and Zamazenta-Crowned also being tested even though they will probably still be broken.
I am surprised that blissey managed to stay in OU.
I guess manaphy is scarier than I thought.
I guess manaphy is scarier than I thought.
while i appreciate araquanid's return, I regret the lack of cooler mons like absol. I surely appreciate incineroar being back tho
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Chimecho competition as Heal Bell user certainly wasn't enough to make it drop.
tidy up cinccino meta tho. Tail slap bullet seed + any coverage to hit dengo if It isn't banned Or bite+ technicien and loaded dice
I would like to share my thoughts on why a Gholdengo ban is currently the only way to significantly improve the metagame.
Firstly, I would like to go over other potential bans, and why their impact would either be negative or insignificant.
-Gliscor
I believe a Gliscor ban would affect the metagame negatively. Withouth Gliscor in the tier, we lose one of the most consistent team structures in Gliscor + HDB spam, where Gliscor functions as a knock absorber. Although some people would consider the removal of Gliscor a nerf to the Hazards + Gholdengo team structure, it would merely be replaced by Ting-Lu or Samurott-H, basically making us go back to the Pokemon Home metagame with a few new Pokemon. I believe the Pokemon Home metagame was one of the worst states SV OU has ever been in, and would much preffer a Gliscor + Ghold choke on the metagame than a Ting-Lu + Ghold or Samurott-H + Ghold infested SV.
-Manaphy
While, I do believe Manaphy is somewhat broken, in the sense that it does not have a solid hard counter, I believe most defensive teams are still able to deal with it through the use of a few niche sets, while offensive teams are constantly able to revenge kill it or shut it down with a faster encore.
A Manaphy ban would negatively affect the metagame, as we would be removing one of the few solid Gliscor checks and one of the few solid stallbreakers. Manaphy also struggles notably in a metagame where Ogerpon-Wellspring is evrywhere, and while I do believe it has the potential to be banworthy in a future metagame, it simply isn´t currently.
-Ogerpon-Wellspring
Similarly to Manaphy, removing Ogerpon-Wellspring from the tier would make us have one less solid Gliscor check. Ogerpon is a very diverse Pokemon, which makes it feel "unwallable". First of all, only grass types are able to consistently "wall it", such as foul play amoonguss or Rillaboom, but it can cripple these with Knock Off, removing their HDB or Leftovers. It also has spikes to force progress against fatter teams, meaning that the only solid defensive counterplay for defensive teams is to keep hazards up, since it can not hold HDB. While I do believe banning Gholdengo could potentially make this Pokemon broken, since it would not be as easily kept in check by hazards, it is not broken in it´s current state, not only being limited by the previously mentioned hazard stack structures but also having it´s fair pool of checks.
-Kingambit
I do not believe Kingambit to be broken in any way. While it did enjoy a decrease in usage from it´s 4 main counters in Great Tusk, Dondozo, Landorus and Moltres, it hated the fact that it´s now easily kept in check by hazards and struggles to easily break Gliscor. Arguments about Kingambit´s "high usage" serve more as arguments for a Gholdengo ban, since the need for a solid Gholdengo answer on balance teams is part of the reason why Kingambit is everywhere. In summary, we voted to not ban this Pokemon in the past and it did not receive ay significant buffs since then; removing it from the tier would just make Gholdengo more overwhelming.
-Sneasler
I never understood why people considered Sneasler broken. It has a terrible offensive typing that makes it struggle into poison types but also both Gholdengo and Gliscor which is the dominant core of the metagame. This pokemon does not lack it´s fair share of counters, it merely prays it can get the right mu fish with it´s Tera type (which a lot of Pokemon do too). I will confess that while Sneasler does not lack counters, it lacks offensive counterplay, being able to easily sweep hyper offensive teams, but even these can easily fit something like Gholdengo and priority spam to deal with it, or use surprise tera to revenge kill it. Removing Sneasler from the tier would not have a significant impact on the metagame as a whole, HO will simply replace it with another Unburden sweeper or Terrain abuser and keep fishing for match-up with Tera Blast mons. I believe Tera Blast ban is a solid option that could balance out Sneasler´s most uncompetitive trait.
Finally, I would like to explain why a Gholdengo ban would actually improve the metagame significantly, unlike banning the previously mentioned Pokemon:
1- Enabling Balance.
It is very hard to disagree with the idea that Balance is currently inferior to Stall or HO in terms of consistency. In this sense, the metagame feels very "Uberesque", as the dominant strategies revolve around either spamming broken stuff, or using Hazard based Defensive teams.
While Balance does have it´s meritts in the current metagame, it´s simply not at the level of the other 2, at least in terms of match-up consistency.
A Gholdengo ban would not only enable balance structures based on Corviknight and unusal Rapid Spinners, but would also free Balance from having to consistently use the same Pokemon, which brings us to Argument 2.
2- Reducing Kingambit Usage.
While I did clarify that Kingambit is not a broken Pokemon in it´s current state, the need to run it on almost all Balance teams feels very opressing and boring for the metagame. All other Gholdengo checks/counters that could fit on balance, are either too passive to justify running Balance over Stall, or too frail to justify running Balance over HO. Clodsire and Iron Moth are 2 solid examples of this respectively.
3- Nerfing Hazard Stack
I probably should have started with this point, as it is the most important for most people. Hazards are at it´s absolute peak in this generation, with all of Stealth Rock, Spikes, Sticky Web and even Toxic Spikes being very impactfull on the metagame. I believe that while Hazard Stacking strategies can be answered with HDB spam + Gliscor/Clefable, it is not healthy for the metagame to be this restricted, as hazard control options that worked well in the past, such as Rapid Spin Great Tusk and Court Change Cinderace keep facing more issues and are getting outclassed by the HDB spam trend.
4- Nerfing Gliscor
This argument obviously relates to the previous one, in the sense that Gholdengo and Gliscor go hand in hand when it comes to making sure that hazards stay on the field. Enabling Corviknight would give the metagame a solid Anti-Gliscor option not named Hatterene, as it is able to Pressure Stall Gliscor´s Stealth Rock/Spikes, and consistently defog on it, while invalidating Swords Dance variants through Iron Defense.
A Gholdengo ban would also potentially enable other Rapid Spinners that could beat Gliscor, such as Cryogonal.
(but that´s just theorymonning at this point).
Thank you for Reading.
Firstly, I would like to go over other potential bans, and why their impact would either be negative or insignificant.
-Gliscor
I believe a Gliscor ban would affect the metagame negatively. Withouth Gliscor in the tier, we lose one of the most consistent team structures in Gliscor + HDB spam, where Gliscor functions as a knock absorber. Although some people would consider the removal of Gliscor a nerf to the Hazards + Gholdengo team structure, it would merely be replaced by Ting-Lu or Samurott-H, basically making us go back to the Pokemon Home metagame with a few new Pokemon. I believe the Pokemon Home metagame was one of the worst states SV OU has ever been in, and would much preffer a Gliscor + Ghold choke on the metagame than a Ting-Lu + Ghold or Samurott-H + Ghold infested SV.
-Manaphy
While, I do believe Manaphy is somewhat broken, in the sense that it does not have a solid hard counter, I believe most defensive teams are still able to deal with it through the use of a few niche sets, while offensive teams are constantly able to revenge kill it or shut it down with a faster encore.
A Manaphy ban would negatively affect the metagame, as we would be removing one of the few solid Gliscor checks and one of the few solid stallbreakers. Manaphy also struggles notably in a metagame where Ogerpon-Wellspring is evrywhere, and while I do believe it has the potential to be banworthy in a future metagame, it simply isn´t currently.
-Ogerpon-Wellspring
Similarly to Manaphy, removing Ogerpon-Wellspring from the tier would make us have one less solid Gliscor check. Ogerpon is a very diverse Pokemon, which makes it feel "unwallable". First of all, only grass types are able to consistently "wall it", such as foul play amoonguss or Rillaboom, but it can cripple these with Knock Off, removing their HDB or Leftovers. It also has spikes to force progress against fatter teams, meaning that the only solid defensive counterplay for defensive teams is to keep hazards up, since it can not hold HDB. While I do believe banning Gholdengo could potentially make this Pokemon broken, since it would not be as easily kept in check by hazards, it is not broken in it´s current state, not only being limited by the previously mentioned hazard stack structures but also having it´s fair pool of checks.
-Kingambit
I do not believe Kingambit to be broken in any way. While it did enjoy a decrease in usage from it´s 4 main counters in Great Tusk, Dondozo, Landorus and Moltres, it hated the fact that it´s now easily kept in check by hazards and struggles to easily break Gliscor. Arguments about Kingambit´s "high usage" serve more as arguments for a Gholdengo ban, since the need for a solid Gholdengo answer on balance teams is part of the reason why Kingambit is everywhere. In summary, we voted to not ban this Pokemon in the past and it did not receive ay significant buffs since then; removing it from the tier would just make Gholdengo more overwhelming.
-Sneasler
I never understood why people considered Sneasler broken. It has a terrible offensive typing that makes it struggle into poison types but also both Gholdengo and Gliscor which is the dominant core of the metagame. This pokemon does not lack it´s fair share of counters, it merely prays it can get the right mu fish with it´s Tera type (which a lot of Pokemon do too). I will confess that while Sneasler does not lack counters, it lacks offensive counterplay, being able to easily sweep hyper offensive teams, but even these can easily fit something like Gholdengo and priority spam to deal with it, or use surprise tera to revenge kill it. Removing Sneasler from the tier would not have a significant impact on the metagame as a whole, HO will simply replace it with another Unburden sweeper or Terrain abuser and keep fishing for match-up with Tera Blast mons. I believe Tera Blast ban is a solid option that could balance out Sneasler´s most uncompetitive trait.
Finally, I would like to explain why a Gholdengo ban would actually improve the metagame significantly, unlike banning the previously mentioned Pokemon:
1- Enabling Balance.
It is very hard to disagree with the idea that Balance is currently inferior to Stall or HO in terms of consistency. In this sense, the metagame feels very "Uberesque", as the dominant strategies revolve around either spamming broken stuff, or using Hazard based Defensive teams.
While Balance does have it´s meritts in the current metagame, it´s simply not at the level of the other 2, at least in terms of match-up consistency.
A Gholdengo ban would not only enable balance structures based on Corviknight and unusal Rapid Spinners, but would also free Balance from having to consistently use the same Pokemon, which brings us to Argument 2.
2- Reducing Kingambit Usage.
While I did clarify that Kingambit is not a broken Pokemon in it´s current state, the need to run it on almost all Balance teams feels very opressing and boring for the metagame. All other Gholdengo checks/counters that could fit on balance, are either too passive to justify running Balance over Stall, or too frail to justify running Balance over HO. Clodsire and Iron Moth are 2 solid examples of this respectively.
3- Nerfing Hazard Stack
I probably should have started with this point, as it is the most important for most people. Hazards are at it´s absolute peak in this generation, with all of Stealth Rock, Spikes, Sticky Web and even Toxic Spikes being very impactfull on the metagame. I believe that while Hazard Stacking strategies can be answered with HDB spam + Gliscor/Clefable, it is not healthy for the metagame to be this restricted, as hazard control options that worked well in the past, such as Rapid Spin Great Tusk and Court Change Cinderace keep facing more issues and are getting outclassed by the HDB spam trend.
4- Nerfing Gliscor
This argument obviously relates to the previous one, in the sense that Gholdengo and Gliscor go hand in hand when it comes to making sure that hazards stay on the field. Enabling Corviknight would give the metagame a solid Anti-Gliscor option not named Hatterene, as it is able to Pressure Stall Gliscor´s Stealth Rock/Spikes, and consistently defog on it, while invalidating Swords Dance variants through Iron Defense.
A Gholdengo ban would also potentially enable other Rapid Spinners that could beat Gliscor, such as Cryogonal.
(but that´s just theorymonning at this point).
Thank you for Reading.
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Okay, I know your trying to say that Gholdengo is broken, which I do agree with, but I think you undercut your main points. For both Manaphy and Ogerpon-Wellspring, a main reason you don't want them banned is that it would negatively affect the metagame by removing counters to Gliscor. But you said before that banning Gliscor is a bad decision?
Also, Ting-lu and Samurott-H would not be nearly as dominant as Gliscor as the don't have reliable recovery in Ting-Lu's case or are quite frail in Samurott-H's case. People need to stop saying that banning a pokemon that is broken will not make the metagame significantly better is a reason for not banning a pokemon. If it's a problem, it should go. Yes, if Gliscor is banned, and this is ignoring the fact that Gholdengo is most likely going to be suspected next regardless as Finch posted in the Gliscor suspect notice, and hazard stack is still a huge problem because Ting-Lu and Samurott-H fill Gliscor's role, we then look at them. Problems in this metagame are multifaceted and banning one pokemon is not going to be the solution. The closest is banning Gholdengo, but even still Gliscor would probably still be a problem, as well as Kingambit.
I mean, banning a significant mon's checks is valid grounds for concern, even if that mon isn't broken.
Fair, but in the post, which I didn't see, it said checks. I don't know if he meant counters, but if the checks are the main reason why a pokemon isn't broken is a cause for concern.
There is no contradiction in my Gliscor stance. I claim Gliscor is balanced now, with Ogerpon and Manaphy in the tier, but it might not be balanced with those out of the tier.
The claim that Ting Lu and Samurott wouldnt dominate the tier with Gliscor out of the way, contradicts everything we have learned in the Home Metagame, where these pokemon paired with Ghold dominated the metagame. I do agree that they wouldnt be as good as they were before, since we now have Clefable and Ogerpon Wellspring in the tier, but they would still be top meta.
If a pokemon is going to be broken without two pokemon in the tier, that I believe is around grounds for saying it is broken now. A pokemon shouldn't have only two pokemon holding it back from being broken. Yes, other pokemon also counter Gliscor, but they either are niche like mamoswine, or force a pokemon to use a moveslot for ice beam like clefable, or pigeonhold your team into a specific style like a-ninetales.
Also, I didn't say that Ting-lu and Samurott-H wouldn't dominate the tier, I simply said that they wouldn't dominate as much as gliscor is right now. They absolutely would be dominate, but I would prefer a slightly better metagame that is still horrible than a really horrible metagame. The main thing that holds them back against gliscor is their longevity. Again, Ting-lu is entirely reliant on leftovers to keep coming in, and as such is susceptible to hazards and knock-off, despite it's enormous bulk. Samurott-H is quite frail and can't take too many hits, meaning if something resists it's moves, it can be revenged killed. And if you're looking for suicide leads, why not use ribombee or glimmora. Ribombee sets up sticky web, which is amazing right now, while glimmora can set spikes, t-spikes and spikes.
Uh people liyerally forgot Rain teams existed. And sun is p good v gliscpr as wwake is an excellent sun abuser
"see, it's fine because broken checks broken. this is definitely not the exact opposite of how balance works"
Ogerpon-w broken? I mean, sure, in a meta w/o ferro
"If a pokemon is going to be broken without two pokemon in the tier, that I believe is around grounds for saying it is broken now."
There are multiple examples that invalidate this idea.
Weavile in SS could be considered broken withouth Tapu Fini and Ferrothorn in the tier, but isnt currently.
Kartana would absolutely be broken in SS withouth Zapdos or Buzzwole in the tier but isnt currently.
Latios would be broken in BW withouth Tyranitar and Scizor in the tier.
Garchomp would be broken in BW withouth Skarmory and Landorus-T in the tier but isnt even a top meta threat with those 2 around.
I could go on giving more examples, some more subjective than others, but the idea still stands. We play in metagames where sometime mons have no hard counters and people consider them to be "fine".
While I recognize here we are talking about checks instead of counters, I never said that Ogerpon and Manaphy were the only Gliscor checks. We also have Ninetales-Alola, Ice Beam Clefable, Greninja and many more.
I agree with everything except this bit.
People haven’t forgot about rain. It just sucks. The play style has severe issues with Ogerpon-W and to some extent Kingambit.
I agree 100%. We know what the issue is…
Ah, I guess nobody runs overqwil these days, they should
It's Kingbambi. And Ghodlengo. And every other mon on the suspect radar. Ban 'em all, let the Council sort 'em out.
I have no idea how this is a con, that's literally one of the reasons why people want Gliscor gone in the first place. Hazard spam is one of the most oppressive playstyles ever because of Gholdengo, and Gliscor's sends it into astronomical levels of brokenness with its role as a Spike setter. Also no, that's not the only reason why Gliscor is being suspected, as perfectly explained in its Suspect post. Gliscor's incredible versatility makes it a huge threat capable of making progress with extreme ease in every game thanks to Toxic and Knock Off, or even more directly with its SD set. Whatever set you face, you'll have to be wary of the looming threat of Spikes and therefore you can be potentially exploited by the more aggressive strategies involving this mon. On top of this, Gliscor has also a good longevity on the field thanks to Poison Heal and its typing, which makes it pretty much invulnerable to opposing Hazards (relying on Stealth Rocks to chip Gliscor's health is completely useless). I would also like to question your assumption that a banned Gliscor would simply be replaced by other Hazard-setters, such as Ting-Lu or Samurott-H, because once again both of them are simply not as versatile and consistent in their ability to keep Spikes up. The former mon gets very easily checked by Tusk, since contrary to Gliscor it has no immediate way to threaten it with Toxic, while the latter is way less bulky than Scor and therefore less durable in matches (which is why Samurott-H is often used as a suicide lead). Both of them are also threatened by opposing Hazards. To further validate my claim, the fact that Tusk is forced to run Ice Spinner in EVERY set is undeniable proof of how centralizing Gliscor is in the meta right now. If it weren't for Gliscor, Tusk would much rather run Knock Off to threaten Gholdengo's switch-ins, improving its role and consistency as a Spinner. This is also why a mon like Ting-Lu would simply not be as effective as an hazard setter as Gliscor is currently.
Both of them are debatable, and I overall agree with your stances. I personally believe that the reason why their potential bans aren't being discussed nearly as much right now is because they are being overshadowed by all of the other mons mentioned above, those being Gliscor, Gholdengo, Kingambit and Sneasler. Until these mons are dealt with, it's pretty hard to keep them in the spotlight. Still, I don't believe that they are an healthy presence in this meta, and because of this they should not be considered justifiable checks to other mons.
I respect your opinion but this is wild. Gambit's widespread usage isn't mainly related to its role as a Dengo check, it's being used so much because it is such a bullshit way to completely turn a match in your favour thanks to Supreme Overlord and Sucker Punch. Sucker Punch on this mon forces constant 50-50s and guessing games during the match, while Supreme Overlord feels like a cheap reward for bad plays. Gambit is also one of the main Tera abusers in the tier, making it even harder to check and control. It is an undeniable over-centralizing presence in this meta, and it 100% deserves to be suspected again.
But it gets Shadow Claw. That's it, it's the only thing it needs. Fighting+Ghost is literally perfect coverage, and with Acrobatics it hits every single mon ever for neutral damage, and a whopping 61.1% supereffectively (which is why everyone of y'all that are running the Unburden set with Dire Claw is crazy). The reason this mon feels broken is precisely because of how easily it can snowball with SD and spiral out of control, and its only reliable check is Dondozo (Unaware Clef gets 2HKOd by Tera Acrobatics, while Moonblast doesn't even 2HKO Sneasler), since all of the other physically bulky mons take an absurd amount of damage from its moves at +2. This is gen 7 Hawlucha on steroids, and no, it would not replace this mon since the latter ACTUALLY gets walled by Gholdengo.
My brother in Christ I am NOT using Cryogonal as a Gliscor check.
In conclusion I have no objections against your Gholdengo arguments, that mon needs to go.
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