Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[DaddyBuzzwole]

That Gliscor was much easier to deal with. Gliscor had to carefully navigate HP ice and didn't have spikes. Turns out, not having anything with a decent SPA stat threaten to kill/chunk you and having spikes in a game without any viable hazard removal that can come in on Gliscor makes Gliscor much more broken.

also, the fact that gliscor is not only the best answer to itself but also the only spikes setter that's naturally immune to spikes means that using any other spikes setter means getting rolled over by gliscor spikes, which is pushing every other spikes setter out of ou, even top-tier stuff like ting-lu and hamurott, who have both seen double-digit drops in usage from pre-dlc to post-dlc despite both maintaining an a on the viability ranking (only a slight drop from the a+ they had pre-dlc). nothing else has seen drops like that without a much larger drop on the vr

 

[Magcargo]

That Gliscor was much easier to deal with. Gliscor had to carefully navigate HP ice and didn't have spikes. Turns out, not having anything with a decent SPA stat threaten to kill/chunk you and having spikes in a game without any viable hazard removal that can come in on Gliscor makes Gliscor much more broken.

Literally, if Gliscor itself had Defog, it wouldn't be as problematic as it is now. That way, it could easily undo progress against itself while also putting Dengo in a bit of a bind with EQ. This issue is moreso tied to Spikes than anything else, which our metagame does not have the tools to handle.

 

[Spheal boi]

also, the fact that gliscor is not only the best answer to itself but also the only spikes setter that's naturally immune to spikes means that using any other spikes setter means getting rolled over by gliscor spikes, which is pushing every other spikes setter out of ou, even top-tier stuff like ting-lu and hamurott, who have both seen double-digit drops in usage from pre-dlc to post-dlc despite both maintaining an a on the viability ranking (only a slight drop from the a+ they had pre-dlc). nothing else has seen drops like that without a much larger drop on the vr

But then there is also the problem that Gliscor is currently our best physical wall that also has a good recovery, and compared to Dondozo, it only has 10 of defense and physical defense in more, but Dondozo has double its HP and 5 more in Attack (no that that matter anyways since their role is exclusively to tank physical threats) and Unaware, while Ting Lu if looking at the stats should be better than them with also its ability to lower the enemy's Special Attack, but Gliscor is better than them since not only has a great defensive typings and its major weakness is a type which hasn't any natural Ice OU mons since all of them got banned or don't peform very well in this meta, besides as everyone said, being immune to Spikes, absorbing Knock Off and Status and most importantly, having longevity.
Then there is also this situation in which is Gliscor or Gholdengo the problem, as the dilemma is like was born before the egg or the chicken, but one thing sure is that removing it would cause a big problem to balance or fat teams that finally got a good Pokémon and can have the chance to win a game, and that also physical sweepers would snowball out of control very easily without it tanking and also toxic them.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Then there is also this situation in which is Gliscor or Gholdengo the problem, as the dilemma is was born before the egg or the chicken

except in this case it's really, abundantly clear what the answer to the question is. hazard stack was annoying the whole gen, but it started getting really out of control once gliscor hit the scene. at that exact moment, actually. do you think that's some sort of wacky zany coincidence? that hazards somehow went from annoying to unbearable a month and a half ago through some bizarre twist of fate that has nothing to do with the most used hazard setter in the meta that just happened to drop at that time?

"oh but correlation doesn't imply causation" yeah sure, but in this case causation happens to be flying around with a giant banner strapped to it that says "CAUSATION" and yelling "look at me, i'm the problem". meanwhile, correlation has gone off to get a stiff drink because causation is doing its whole job for it

 

[Spheal boi]

except in this case it's really, abundantly clear what the answer to the question is. hazard stack was annoying the whole gen, but it started getting really out of control once gliscor hit the scene. at that exact moment, actually. do you think that's some sort of wacky zany coincidence?

"oh but correlation doesn't imply causation" yeah sure, but in this case causation happens to be flying around with a giant banner strapped to it that says "CAUSATION" and yelling "look at me, i'm the problem"

Sorry was just too tempting and I couldn't not put it, but yea, we can't really blame Gliscor for this but just GF for the tools it gave us to deal with hazard stack while also its best cheesy friend block their removal, maybe DLC2 will gave us new tools to remove them as also dealing with Ghold and Gliscor, but for the moment, it needs to go even if it's our best physical wall in a HO meta.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

View attachment 568487
Sorry was just too tempting and I couldn't not put it, but yea, we can't really blame Gliscor for this but just GF for the tools it gave us to deal with hazard stack while also its best cheesy friend block their removal, maybe DLC2 will gave us new tools to remove them as also dealing with Ghold and Gliscor, but for the moment, it needs to go even if it's our best physical wall in a HO meta.

we absolutely can blame gliscor for this. look, i'm doing it right now. as the primary hazard setter of the tier, gliscor is currently the largest driver behind hazard stack as a playstyle, which makes it the mon most directly responsible for hazard stack being a problem right now. gholdengo is indirectly responsible, but it should be clear to just about anyone with a functioning brain cell that gliscor at the absolute least compounds the problem to an unhealthy degree and that removing it would significantly relieve hazard pressure, which in turn would make the meta more balanced and make it more likely that skilled people get reqs for a theoretical gholdengo suspect and less likely that unskilled people do, which should make it more likely for gholdengo to be banned because skilled players are much more likely to witness and recognize the constricting effects of ghold on the meta. hazard stack would still be a problem, albeit less of one than it is right now, but it actually adds to the ban-ghold argument to have a meta without gliscor so everyone can see that banning gliscor wasn't the only thing we had to do. thus, everyone who thinks gholdengo is the primary problem and should have been suspected first should also be supporting a gliscor ban right now—that's the first step to getting ghold gone, and then we can talk about dropping gliscor in dlc2 without ghold. this is also why they should support a gambit ban if it comes to the table—one less thing that beats ghold. play the long game, the payoff will be worth it

aside from that, gliscor is a problematic mon in its own right, exerting serious pressure on the teambuilder even in the absence of gholdengo, being virtually unkillable by all but a few things which mostly really hate toxic and knock off, and altogether just delivering way too high of a reward for way too low of a risk

 

[Spheal boi]

we absolutely can blame gliscor for this. look, i'm doing it right now. as the primary hazard setter of the tier, gliscor is currently the largest driver behind hazard stack as a playstyle, which makes it the mon most directly responsible for hazard stack being a problem right now. gholdengo is indirectly responsible, but it should be clear to just about anyone with a functioning brain cell that gliscor at the absolute least compounds the problem to an unhealthy degree and that removing it would significantly relieve hazard pressure, which in turn would make the meta more balanced and make it more likely that skilled people get reqs for a theoretical gholdengo suspect and less likely that unskilled people do, which should make it more likely for gholdengo to be banned because skilled players are much more likely to witness and recognize the constricting effects of ghold on the meta

aside from that, gliscor is a problematic mon in its own right, exerting serious pressure on the teambuilder even in the absence of gholdengo, being virtually unkillable by all but a few things which mostly really hate toxic and knock off, and altogether just delivering way too high of a reward for way too low of a risk

I can't even argue honestly, both for the experience I have compared to you and the excellent points you are making, and in truth I'm even neutral with it, just that I was seeing what points with it could be beneficial to the meta, but ... being one of the only Pokémon that can not only toxic but also recover health with it and all that has been said... it has to go (which for sure will happen once the suspect is over), I just believed that despite all this toxicity (no pun intended) that is causing could help... but surely it isn't doing at all.
Still thank you so much for explaining your points and the problems it cause.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

aside from that, gliscor is a problematic mon in its own right, exerting serious pressure on the teambuilder even in the absence of gholdengo, being virtually unkillable by all but a few things which mostly really hate toxic and knock off, and altogether just delivering way too high of a reward for way too low of a risk

I hope you don't mind me using this segment to add some commentary to bolster your points.

Speaking as someone who additionally started just before the DLC and got to play for a few weeks after missing Gen 8, my experience of playing before and after the introduction of Gilscor has been one of "this is alright" to incredibly unpleasant. It feels considerably *bad* to not have an immediate, accessible answer on my teams Gilscor alone. The hazard stacking with Samurott was annoying to a degree sure, but after knocking it out (Kleavor my beloved) it didn't feel as oppressive.

Now that the spike setter is a wall that requires very specific counterplay that may not fit into every team I might want to build, feels... Oppressive, to say the least. Sure, I need a Gambit check, Ghold check, and now a Gilscor check. Which feels extra bad when Gilscor happens to really like covering what I'd typically use for the first two. So the Hazard stacking Gilscor provides along with its longevity makes dealing and building around it along with the other usual threats is certainly constrictive in a meta game that already had things you need to build for unless you want to be 50/50'd to oblivion.

 

[Ctann]

Checking Gliscor shouldn’t be hard. The issue is you need to use lower-viability Pokémon in a meta that encourages your opponent to position their high power, high threat pokemon.

also, try not to “predict” a Gliscor protect too much. I’ve seen so many games lost because the Gliscor player reads that the opponent is guessing they’re gonna protect next turn, and makes significant progress instead in that turn whilst the opponent doesn’t use an attacking move.

At what point in the past was a Pokémon that can use spikes and toxic with some reasonable longevity a problem? Closest I can think of is Deo-D, and that was more of an “enabler” kind of broken in its meta.

I’m all for banning Gliscor, seeing as basic things like banning gambit weren’t done and it likely won’t be revisited for a while.

so it’s true.. banning Gliscor might be a way to make progress in the meta.

Although Gliscor is certainly a red herring here. Banning it isn’t going to solve the actual problems of a blind Tera meta. The reality is there’s a lot more OP Pokémon, and likely more to come… so long as the meta is blind-Tera.

very simple stuff happens when progress is made the right way, an example of very simple meta developments after a logical kingambit ban:

Ban kingambit > Weavile without low kick is more viable, Weavile can actually fit 2 stabs and priority again without losing 43% of games, Weavile is less outclassed as a dark type. Weavile also beats gliscor. Gliscor viability decreases slightly.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

gliscor is nuked by a very potentiel pokemon, ogerpon-w. gliscor's argument is often force progressvia eq+tox+spikes and it Can pivot and it uses protect passive recovery+ it knocks you and it sword dance+ the dual wingbeat+...
Bro glisc has 4 moves and Will always Have only 4

 

[Magcargo]

Checking Gliscor shouldn’t be hard. The issue is you need to use lower-viability Pokémon in a meta that encourages your opponent to position their high power, high threat pokemon.

also, try not to “predict” a Gliscor protect too much. I’ve seen so many games lost because the Gliscor player reads that the opponent is guessing they’re gonna protect next turn, and makes significant progress instead in that turn whilst the opponent doesn’t use an attacking move.

At what point in the past was a Pokémon that can use spikes and toxic with some reasonable longevity a problem? Closest I can think of is Deo-D, and that was more of an “enabler” kind of broken in its meta.

I’m all for banning Gliscor, seeing as basic things like banning gambit weren’t done and it likely won’t be revisited for a while.

so it’s true.. banning Gliscor might be a way to make progress in the meta.

Although Gliscor is certainly a red herring here. Banning it isn’t going to solve the actual problems of a blind Tera meta. The reality is there’s a lot more OP Pokémon, and likely more to come… so long as the meta is blind-Tera.

very simple stuff happens when progress is made the right way, an example of very simple meta developments after a logical kingambit ban:

Ban kingambit > Weavile without low kick is more viable, Weavile can actually fit 2 stabs and priority again without losing 43% of games, Weavile is less outclassed as a dark type. Weavile also beats gliscor. Gliscor viability decreases slightly.

One could argue that Gambit allows lower viability Pokemon to thrive more, as it will be getting a free 10% power boost most games, letting it reach critical KO thresholds it wouldn't be able to reach otherwise.

The classic combo of shitmon + Gambit almost never fails for me.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

And you may see as much poste for ban and for dnb but let's be honest. Anti-gliscor people are always the same. I do think gliscor is bout to stay and then council Will take action on ghold. Tiering surveys surely are flawed: when people disagree with the result, they say " it is too democratic and whenever they agree with it they start to say "the tiering is a proof of my arguments". I think tiering should be a tool only for the council and Not smthing that force them to make decisions like this pointless suspect.

 

[Roshino]

And you may see as much poste for ban and for dnb but let's be honest. Anti-gliscor people are always the same. I do think gliscor is bout to stay and then council Will take action on ghold. Tiering surveys surely are flawed: when people disagree with the result, they say " it is too democratic and whenever they agree with it they start to say "the tiering is a proof of my arguments". I think tiering should be a tool only for the council and Not smthing that force them to make decisions like this pointless suspect.

Can you elaborate on how "anti-gliscor people are always the same"?

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Can you elaborate on how "anti-gliscor people are always the same"?

always the same 10 people in the chat that argue that glisc is banworthy. Glisc is severely aweakened by having only four slots with only one to protect, Knock, cover, U-turn, icw fang, and every dumb thing it does with a worse quality than Other mons

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

always the same 10 people in the chat that argue that glisc is banworthy. Glisc is severely aweakened by having only four slots with only one to protect, Knock, cover, U-turn, icw fang, and every dumb thing it does with a worse quality than Other mons

I understand from your posts that you're a bit new to all of Smogon's competitive tiering and balance, but doubling, tripling, and quadrupling down on the same argument when many others have disproven that fact, especially well known and trusted players, is not a very good idea. I'll try and help you out a bit with understanding their thoughts better, especially on two points you've said today. I'm not fond of 'clowning on people' when some advice might be good.

gliscor is nuked by a very potentiel pokemon, ogerpon-w. gliscor's argument is often force progressvia eq+tox+spikes and it Can pivot and it uses protect passive recovery+ it knocks you and it sword dance+ the dual wingbeat+...
Bro glisc has 4 moves and Will always Have only 4

The problem is that Gliscor only needs 4 moves to be in contention for the best mon in the tier, if not outright the best, a point I don't want to argue (Toxic/EQ/Protect/Spikes); Running Knock means sacrificing one part of your kit to be even more disruptive and running a SD set means dropping your long-term damage through toxic/spikes in favor of luring and deleting switchins. SD Gliscor in particular sets up for free in front of itself assuming you have a button to click that hits the opposing gliscor.

Gliscor's 4 baseline moves by themselves are already problematic enough to warrant tiering action; it's just that it has the option of changing how it plays for low cost, and that it's impossible to guess at team preview whether or not it's a lure set.

Glisc is severely aweakened by having only four slots with only one to protect, Knock, cover, U-turn, icw fang, and every dumb thing it does with a worse quality than Other mons

Gliscor definitively has one of the best defensive profiles of any mon in the current meta, irrespective of its movesets; It's the Spiker with the greatest amount of longevity, it's a metagame warping presence by forcing Tusk to run Spinner to stay relevant (aka being able to spin on it, which doesn't even work most of the time) and knocking multiple ground types down in viability, and it is the king of sustain through chip healing via protect and slow VolTurn switches. Its 4 moveslots are sufficient to handle nearly everything you can throw at it besides other Gliscor, and is definitely not a mon suffering in 4MSS.



I hope this helps!

 

[luckie]

always the same 10 people in the chat that argue that glisc is banworthy. Glisc is severely aweakened by having only four slots with only one to protect, Knock, cover, U-turn, icw fang, and every dumb thing it does with a worse quality than Other mons

if by chat you mean this forum, I can guarantee that there are many people, myself included, that think Gliscor is banworthy but don't comment here.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Anti-gliscor people are always the same.

true, they're all correct

 

[Rekka's Backend]

One could argue that Gambit allows lower viability Pokemon to thrive more, as it will be getting a free 10% power boost most games, letting it reach critical KO thresholds it wouldn't be able to reach otherwise.

The classic combo of shitmon + Gambit almost never fails for me.

I'm not sure how serious this post is but this is the exact reason when I try to actually play with winning in mind I break out the ol' classic of either Destiny Bond Gengar or Hydreigon with Rocks/Taunt. With enough investment a single draco should often knock out non-SPD focused Gilscors and they almost never expect the angriest lizard to just mash Meteor in their face. Smash those rocks after and you might actually get to play a normal game.

Sure, it dies after this or it fails when someone might actually know movepools. But it works at least 60% of the time...!

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

One could argue that Gambit allows lower viability Pokemon to thrive more, as it will be getting a free 10% power boost most games, letting it reach critical KO thresholds it wouldn't be able to reach otherwise.

The classic combo of shitmon + Gambit almost never fails for me.

hmm… i wonder how a gimmicky final gambit/destiny bond/pawmot team would do with kingambit on it…

 

[Sahvyt]

hmm… i wonder how a gimmicky final gambit/destiny bond/pawmot team would do with kingambit on it…

if this implying using revival blessing, SO only goes up to 5.

edit: to not make this a one liner, an explanation:
SO only calculates how many mons in the party are currently fainted, not how many have fainted. i think last respects works differently but idk.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

if this implying using revival blessing, SO only goes up to 5.

edit: to not make this a one liner, an explanation:
SO only calculates how many mons in the party are currently fainted, not how many have fainted. i think last respects works differently but idk.

oh, i know that, i just think that being able to use final gambit/destiny bond and then bring that mon back to use for other shit is neat, and since the whole gimmick of each of those strategies is to die, i figured gambit might fit in well since it likes when its teammates are dead. even if pawmot dies right after getting a blessing off, that's just another eventual boost to childish gambito

 

[Napoli Burns]

Bro glisc has 4 moves

gliscor would be problematic in this tier even with

spikes
protect
toxic
and nothing more, the 4 move slot is just an utility; u have another 5 pokemons to run koff or to wallbreak

is like saying oger flame is balanced because has only 4 moves and she can't run sd + encore + trailbaze + koff + the 2 stabs at the same time; oger needed only sd + ivy and a grass move to destroy everything, moltres and dnite were the only few pokemons able to resist that coverage

I think tiering should be a tool only for the council

people are still crying for the volc quickban lol, wE nEeD kOkOlOkO tIeRiNg SyStEm pls no

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

gliscor would be problematic in this tier even with

spikes
protect
toxic
and nothing more, the 4 move slot is just an utility; u have another 5 pokemons to run koff or to wallbreak

is like saying oger flame is balanced because has only 4 moves and she can't run sd + encore + trailbaze + koff + the 2 stabs at the same time; oger needed only sd + ivy and a grass move to destroy everything, moltres and dnite were the only few pokemons able to resist that coverage

you know, this may be the first time i've ever actually agreed with you about something. people bring up 4mss a lot to try to argue about why x thing isn't broken because "it can only run 4 moves at a time", but they don't realize the difference between "this mon is super versatile and has a bunch of viable moves it can run" vs "this pokemon really needs a fifth moveslot". many of the things we've looked at recently are the former, not the latter (and everything else is the much dumber "it only needs 4 moves to beat the whole meta")

ban gliscor, this mon is dumb

 

[TurquoiseLink]

I've been playing Alomomola + Galarian Weezing since DLC so any time I wanted hazards gone I pressed flip turn into defog and they disappeared.

Having finally tried other teams for this suspect, wow respect to anyone who has managed to stomach this meta. Playing without Weezing feels awful, and Weezing without wish is awful.

Some spinners can beat Gliscor (tech some ice, water SpA, or toxic immunity), some spinners can beat Gholdengo (did you know Toedscruel has 120 SpD). No spinners can beat both and unless you can beat both with 1 mon that learns rapid spin the spikes stay up.

 

[woodgoldtwo]

if this implying using revival blessing, SO only goes up to 5.

edit: to not make this a one liner, an explanation:
SO only calculates how many mons in the party are currently fainted, not how many have fainted. i think last respects works differently but idk.

No, Supreme Overlord works the same as Last Respects and counts every instance of one of your pokemon fainting but unlike Last Respects the boost itself is capped at 1.5x even if the "Fallen Allies" counter goes above 5