Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[DaddyBuzzwole]

To me, may be the most broken Pokemon right now.

I will preface this by saying that I don’t necessarily think it’s necessarily the most pressing with the ongoing Gliscor suspect and the larger Gholdengo discussion, but it’s absolutely near the top of my radar.

Dire Claw aside, Swords Dance variants have their pick of checks and counters besides a few exceptions. Tera Ghost with Shadow Claw can take out Gholdengo, wall IDef BP Roost Uturn Corv, obstruct Zamazenta, surprise Skeledirge, and handle Dragapult all while neutralizing moves like Hurricane, Future Sight, and Earthquake that now turn into 2HKOs, which is all you really need. Tera Flying suffers from a little coverage issue as you still want Shadow Claw for Ghold, but a Poison move can come in handy. That aside though, coverage is similarly effective universally with very few misses and Flying Acro doing a ton of damage to neutral targets. Even Tera Dark or Tera Fighting with Shadow Claw and Gunk Shot can come in hand.

Dire Claw is another subtopic within the presence of Senasler as both in general and on some SD variants it can potentially make games unreasonable with not much counterplay, and this would be amplified if Gliscor were to get banned. I think many people point at it and say ban the move to keep Sneasler, but realistically Dire Claw isn’t even all of the issue or close to it. It is an issue that just makes the ongoing threat of Tera SD Sneasler with Terrain even more worrisome (and it validates pivot sets, but I don’t find them to be nearly as problematic).

Some people note that Rillaboom can be seen as a major culprit here as it enables some of the arguably broken strategies like this that we see right now, and to this I say I don’t really agree at the moment, but I get the relationship and if we had more time before DLC2 it’d be at least worthy of a discussion.

I personally plan on giving Sneasler a 5 (or maybe at least a 4) on the next survey if we have another before DLC2, which is still up in the air. Definitely think people figured out the best settings for this Pokemon and are now abusing it better than ever.

i didn't have much of an opinion on it until a little while ago, but having recently used a rilla/sneasler core to great success, i wholeheartedly agree. sneasler is bullshit cheese and i don't even find myself clicking dire cheat most games (but when i do, it's even dumber than usual). i've won an unreasonable number of matches by simply getting sneasler in once and setting up, and this is happening in the early game

 

[RedShiftS]

I

i didn't have much of an opinion on it until a little while ago, but having recently used a rilla/sneasler core to great success, i wholeheartedly agree. sneasler is bullshit cheese and i don't even find myself clicking dire cheat most games (but when i do, it's even dumber than usual). i've won an unreasonable number of matches by simply getting sneasler in once and setting up, and this is happening in the early game

In the last survey it was a 1/5 for me, but more I play more I find him broken, shadow claw variants, which have no counterplay, the core rillaboom-Sneasler is deadly for unprepared teams

 

[Welcome to mars]

To me, may be the most broken Pokemon right now.

I will preface this by saying that I don’t necessarily think it’s the most pressing with the ongoing Gliscor suspect and the larger Gholdengo discussion, but it’s absolutely near the top of my radar.

Dire Claw aside, Swords Dance variants have their pick of checks and counters besides a few exceptions. Tera Ghost with Shadow Claw can take out Gholdengo, wall IDef BP Roost Uturn Corv, obstruct Zamazenta, surprise Skeledirge, and handle Dragapult all while neutralizing moves like Hurricane, Future Sight, and Earthquake that now turn into 2HKOs, which is all you really need. Tera Flying suffers from a little coverage issue as you still want Shadow Claw for Ghold, but a Poison move can come in handy. That aside though, coverage is similarly effective universally with very few misses and Flying Acro doing a ton of damage to neutral targets. Even Tera Dark or Tera Fighting with Shadow Claw and Gunk Shot can come in hand.

Dire Claw is another subtopic within the presence of Sneasler as both in general and on some SD variants it can potentially make games unreasonable with not much counterplay, and this would be amplified if Gliscor were to get banned. I think many people point at it and say ban the move to keep Sneasler, but realistically Dire Claw isn’t even all of the issue or close to it. It is an issue that just makes the ongoing threat of Tera SD Sneasler with Terrain even more worrisome (and it validates pivot sets, but I don’t find them to be nearly as problematic).

Some people note that Rillaboom can be seen as a major culprit here as it enables some of the arguably broken strategies like this that we see right now, and to this I say I don’t really agree at the moment, but I get the relationship and if we had more time before DLC2 it’d be at least worthy of a discussion.

I personally plan on giving Sneasler a 5 (or maybe at least a 4) on the next survey if we have another before DLC2, which is still up in the air. Definitely think people figured out the best settings for this Pokemon and are now abusing it better than ever.

its over

Because if the angle is ever approached and stored power gets put on a survey and people vote on it and it ends up as an issue to the majority of the qualified playerbase I'd say I was right and if it is not then I was wrong.

"Define fun" is a tough nut to argue I'll admit. But if it is ever put on a survey I am voting max on Stored Power: I really do fucking despise it and don't see the fun or competitive advantage of keeping it.

use cosmic power clefable on ladder lil bro

 

[kd458]

To me, may be the most broken Pokemon right now.

this mon is like a brother to me but a really fucked up one that needs jail time ASAP, this is literally just a mon which has been OU/UUBL for generations but they gave it slightly more speed, better SpDef and 38 higher base Attack (thank you Gamefreak). Scarf/Band/Pivot sets are strong but not really the issue imo, Unburden comes with free lefties off Terrain and patches up your only significant weakness in low physical bulk while also letting you run a free 10% damage boost in Adamant, which for context is essentially the same as 147 base Attack with a neutral nature (i.e. stronger than Jolly Bax). Paired with massive base power on both STAB options, or a still-respectable 80BP no-drawback STAB move that has a 1/6 chance to inflict Sleep, along with either high BP coverage in Acro or unresisted coverage in Lash Out / Shadow Claw it's hard to not see why this mon may be a little too overtuned... I'd still sooner see a couple other things leave the tier first or at the same time but Sneasler is definitely on the radar for me as one of the most broken things right now in the meta. Tera enhances this, but Sneasler is absolutely not a mon broken by it, often retaining its base typing unless it really needs to cheese through something it shouldn't and freeing up teammates like Zama, Kingambit and Dnite to use Tera and exploit the holes Sneasler leaves behind in defensive cores. Definitely at least a 4/5 for me personally.

 

[Spheal boi]

I'm seriously wondering how we are gonna handle or manage the mons returning and also the new ones in DLC2 if meanwhile we're still suffering with these ones and as we think a mon wasn't so problematic or easily manageable immediately it rises up and becomes a serious threat.

EDIT: In case some of you are wondering, I'm not saying that the council is doing a bad job, on the contrary, it is doing an excellent job while also being fast with the responses and also constantly listening to the opinions of the members, both high and low ladder, I'm referring to Gamefreak constantly adding brokenness over brokenness

 

[DoofV3]

Before Rillaboom returned, I never had any issues with Sneasler. They were simply a footnote in the game, existing to be dead weight against Gholdengo/Dirge Will-o-Wisp bait.

Now? Oh, how I loathe that mon whenever I see it on preview. I don't know who is more guilty of being broken but not only do I dread Sneasler more, it has made me hate Rilla even more. (It doesn't help that its the ugliest starter ever and seeing it be meta brings me no joy).

 

[Finchinator]

I'm seriously wondering how we are gonna handle or manage the mons returning and also the new ones in DLC2 if meanwhile we're still suffering with these ones and as we think a mon wasn't so problematic or easily manageable immediately it rises up and becomes a serious threat

We are gonna ban the right shit and be fine

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

We are gonna ban the right shit and be fine

 

[ianlazerbeem]

To me, may be the most broken Pokemon right now.

I will preface this by saying that I don’t necessarily think it’s the most pressing with the ongoing Gliscor suspect and the larger Gholdengo discussion, but it’s absolutely near the top of my radar.

Dire Claw aside, Swords Dance variants have their pick of checks and counters besides a few exceptions. Tera Ghost with Shadow Claw can take out Gholdengo, wall IDef BP Roost Uturn Corv, obstruct Zamazenta, surprise Skeledirge, and handle Dragapult all while neutralizing moves like Hurricane, Future Sight, and Earthquake that now turn into 2HKOs, which is all you really need. Tera Flying suffers from a little coverage issue as you still want Shadow Claw for Ghold, but a Poison move can come in handy. That aside though, coverage is similarly effective universally with very few misses and Flying Acro doing a ton of damage to neutral targets. Even Tera Dark or Tera Fighting with Shadow Claw and Gunk Shot can come in hand.

Dire Claw is another subtopic within the presence of Sneasler as both in general and on some SD variants it can potentially make games unreasonable with not much counterplay, and this would be amplified if Gliscor were to get banned. I think many people point at it and say ban the move to keep Sneasler, but realistically Dire Claw isn’t even all of the issue or close to it. It is an issue that just makes the ongoing threat of Tera SD Sneasler with Terrain even more worrisome (and it validates pivot sets, but I don’t find them to be nearly as problematic).

Some people note that Rillaboom can be seen as a major culprit here as it enables some of the arguably broken strategies like this that we see right now, and to this I say I don’t really agree at the moment, but I get the relationship and if we had more time before DLC2 it’d be at least worthy of a discussion.

I personally plan on giving Sneasler a 5 (or maybe at least a 4) on the next survey if we have another before DLC2, which is still up in the air. Definitely think people figured out the best settings for this Pokemon and are now abusing it better than ever.

Thanks for addressing the Sneasler Menace, Finch, i too detest this Pokémon and look forward to voting 5 on the next survey. I always thought Air Balloon + Unburden was a bit of a cheesy set (better not attack or it gets the boost! Better not switch or it gets a swords dance!) but now Grassy Seed brings this Mon to a whole new level of cheap - built in screen + agility upon being sent out? What is this, Mega Zamazenta? I've previously said dire claw is the least problematic aspect of Sneasler, but now that grassy seed lets it tank physical hits, there's really nothing stopping Sneasler from just spamming dire claw and fishing for procs all over balance and stall teams. I'm also quite bothered by how many coverage options it has along with at least 5 viable Tera types. By the time you've discerned the proper counterplay for your opponent's Sneasler it's usually too late, barring the only Pokémon that reliably beats this thing, Dondozo, which still doesn't love being forced to sleep for an unpredictable number of turns due to it also being the primary Kingambit check on most teams it's on. Community, please vote 5 so the council can quickban this thing before the Ghold suspect you all want

 

[ShizuOsaka]

Thanks for addressing the Sneasler Menace, Finch, i too detest this Pokémon and look forward to voting 5 on the next survey. I always thought Air Balloon + Unburden was a bit of a cheesy set (better not attack or it gets the boost! Better not switch or it gets a swords dance!) but now Grassy Seed brings this Mon to a whole new level of cheap - built in screen + agility upon being sent out? What is this, Mega Zamazenta? I've previously said dire claw is the least problematic aspect of Sneasler, but now that grassy seed lets it tank physical hits, there's really nothing stopping Sneasler from just spamming dire claw and fishing for procs all over balance and stall teams. I'm also quite bothered by how many coverage options it has along with at least 5 viable Tera types. By the time you've discerned the proper counterplay for your opponent's Sneasler it's usually too late, barring the only Pokémon that reliably beats this thing, Dondozo, which still doesn't love being forced to sleep for an unpredictable number of turns due to it also being the primary Kingambit check on most teams it's on. Community, please vote 5 so the council can quickban this thing before the Ghold suspect you all want

Thanks for addressing the Sneasler Menace, Finch, i too detest this Pokémon and look forward to voting 5 on the next survey. I always thought Air Balloon + Unburden was a bit of a cheesy set (better not attack or it gets the boost! Better not switch or it gets a swords dance!) but now Grassy Seed brings this Mon to a whole new level of cheap - built in screen + agility upon being sent out? What is this, Mega Zamazenta? I've previously said dire claw is the least problematic aspect of Sneasler, but now that grassy seed lets it tank physical hits, there's really nothing stopping Sneasler from just spamming dire claw and fishing for procs all over balance and stall teams. I'm also quite bothered by how many coverage options it has along with at least 5 viable Tera types. By the time you've discerned the proper counterplay for your opponent's Sneasler it's usually too late, barring the only Pokémon that reliably beats this thing, Dondozo, which still doesn't love being forced to sleep for an unpredictable number of turns due to it also being the primary Kingambit check on most teams it's on. Community, please vote 5 so the council can quickban this thing before the Ghold suspect you all want

Sneasler doesn’t even need Dire Claw in Unburden set. From what I have seen, SD/CC/Acro/Lash Out works just fine.
It may want to tera Flying to get more damage from Acrobatics or Tera Dark to guarantee KOs on Ghold or Slowking, but it doesn’t even need that. Not like it isn’t protected by a switch-in +def and grassy terrain anw, since the most common ground move is Earthquake.
Also unlike Hawlucha, it isn’t afraid of Toxic and Fairy stuffs thanks to its poison typing. Plus that high speed + Unburden. It’s just sick.

 

[Welcome to mars]

We are gonna ban the right shit and be fine

bro thinks hes up for the job

Before Rillaboom returned, I never had any issues with Sneasler. They were simply a footnote in the game, existing to be dead weight against Gholdengo/Dirge Will-o-Wisp bait.

Now? Oh, how I loathe that mon whenever I see it on preview. I don't know who is more guilty of being broken but not only do I dread Sneasler more, it has made me hate Rilla even more. (It doesn't help that its the ugliest starter ever and seeing it be meta brings me no joy).

this combo was always usable from the moment the home update dropped but only now its under fire simply because rillabooms usage hinges entirely on one move and thats peak comedy

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Exactly, my thing with Sneasler is, outside of DC it's a really stupid broken cheese setup sweeper, Gunk Shot or no poison sets are plenty good and typically auto wins with very little positioning simply by pressing the cheat button (tera,) but also independently of all of that, the fact that it can ALSO cheese with dire claw? No suspect necessary lol

 

[ShizuOsaka]

And I have to say, pre-HOME metagame was fine. Roaring Moon was mid because it had to run Crunch, Bax was ok because there were no good snow setter for Bax to abuse. Even Gholdengo problem wasn’t as severe because Glimmora, Ting-Lu and Chomp weren’t strong enough to also put on pressure against Tusky.
Now Spikes is such a scot-free click.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

Exactly, my thing with Sneasler is, outside of DC it's a really stupid broken cheese setup sweeper, Gunk Shot or no poison sets are plenty good and typically auto wins with very little positioning simply by pressing the cheat button (tera,) but also independently of all of that, the fact that it can ALSO cheese with dire claw? No suspect necessary lol

This meta is now like a messy lasagna. So many layers of terrible designs that becomes more and more severe due to the format being so HO-oriented. Council can keep banning and we still won’t get a healthy metagame.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

We are gonna ban the right shit and be fine

And yes that includes tera when we hit dlc2, considering some of these problems are directly caused by it could feasibly see a ban in DLC2.

For now I think its time to focus on long term brokens like Sneasler and Ghold, which are likely a little too strong and or meta warping for OU overall even if tera ends up going when DLC 2 hits through a suspect

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Sneasler being considered for suspect was inevitable. It was always borderline and didn't get enough attention because of other threats. But that never made Sneasler not threatening. Sneasler would probably be broken even if it didn't have Dire Claw, but Dire Claw doesn't hurt for sure

Overall, Sneasler is a bigger priority than Gholdengo imo. And I wanted Gholdengo banned before Gliscor. Sneasler has escaped suspect test for too long.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

And yes that includes tera when we hit dlc2, considering some of these problems are directly caused by it could feasibly see a ban in DLC2.

it pretty much entirely depends on what secret type 19 does. if it's some stupid shit like "tera blast is super effective against everything", or something that invalidates the entire concept of having different tera types like "everything gets stab" or "resists everything", even i would support a full ban

 

[ianlazerbeem]

it pretty much entirely depends on what secret type 19 does. if it's some stupid shit like "tera blast is super effective against everything", or something that invalidates the entire concept of having different tera types like "everything gets stab" or "resists everything", even i would support a full ban

I wouldn't say it entirely hinges on that. Not only are many people getting fed up with Tera, the Pokémon that come back play a large part as well. I cannot envision a world in which Tapu Lele is balanced with Tera, or any Tapu for that matter. Look at the list of returning Pokémon. How many seem miserable to face in the Tera Minefield? With the delicate place OU is already in and a balanced metagame being further and further out of reach, and no bans seeming to bring it closer, I could certainly see Tera going so we don't have to ban 25 more Pokémon (then 25 more once the new top dogs take over)

 

[DoofV3]

this combo was always usable from the moment the home update dropped but only now its under fire simply because rillabooms usage hinges entirely on one move and thats peak comedy

while its true that the combo was usable, people really overestimated how much the grassy glide nerf would affect Rillaboom's viability, by which I mean it didn't impact him much at all. (I myself underestimated the ugly monke until i found myself facing down a grassy terrain team)

its ok, ill take the L for calling rillaboom "rillamid", i really truly wasnt aware of his game.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

and a balanced metagame being further and further out of reach, and no bans seeming to bring it closer

my guy i don't know what meta you've been playing but the tier has gotten demonstrably more balanced with every ban since dlc and the survey scores have only gone up. balance is possible with tera and it will happen with tera before tera is tested

 

[YubelVT]

To me, may be the most broken Pokemon right now.

I will preface this by saying that I don’t necessarily think it’s the most pressing with the ongoing Gliscor suspect and the larger Gholdengo discussion, but it’s absolutely near the top of my radar.

Dire Claw aside, Swords Dance variants have their pick of checks and counters besides a few exceptions. Tera Ghost with Shadow Claw can take out Gholdengo, wall IDef BP Roost Uturn Corv, obstruct Zamazenta, surprise Skeledirge, and handle Dragapult all while neutralizing moves like Hurricane, Future Sight, and Earthquake that now turn into 2HKOs, which is all you really need. Tera Flying suffers from a little coverage issue as you still want Shadow Claw for Ghold, but a Poison move can come in handy. That aside though, coverage is similarly effective universally with very few misses and Flying Acro doing a ton of damage to neutral targets. Even Tera Dark or Tera Fighting with Shadow Claw and Gunk Shot can come in hand.

Dire Claw is another subtopic within the presence of Sneasler as both in general and on some SD variants it can potentially make games unreasonable with not much counterplay, and this would be amplified if Gliscor were to get banned. I think many people point at it and say ban the move to keep Sneasler, but realistically Dire Claw isn’t even all of the issue or close to it. It is an issue that just makes the ongoing threat of Tera SD Sneasler with Terrain even more worrisome (and it validates pivot sets, but I don’t find them to be nearly as problematic).

Some people note that Rillaboom can be seen as a major culprit here as it enables some of the arguably broken strategies like this that we see right now, and to this I say I don’t really agree at the moment, but I get the relationship and if we had more time before DLC2 it’d be at least worthy of a discussion.

I personally plan on giving Sneasler a 5 (or maybe at least a 4) on the next survey if we have another before DLC2, which is still up in the air. Definitely think people figured out the best settings for this Pokemon and are now abusing it better than ever.

You don't even need to sacrifice tera flying to beat Gholdengo. It gets night slash which will dick all over a ghold at +2. Shadow Claw's niche is legit but Seedler's only flaw is that it can't beat fat by itself, but you have teammates to handle that (hopefully). You're absolutely correct though and I'm happy someone actually good at the game can validate my opinion

 

[YubelVT]

Sneasler would probably be broken even if it didn't have Dire Claw, but Dire Claw doesn't hurt for sure

My brother in christ the best unburden set doesn't run Dire Claw. Dire Claw was never the issue with sneasler and I maintain it's been insanely broken since home dropped

 

[YubelVT]

What are the thoughts on ? To me, honestly, this thing seems like a huge fraud flavor-of-the-month type of deal. For sure usable in OU but not something I would consider good. Here is a retelling of a recent interaction I had against a Milo player:
- used Nasty Plot
Opponent switched in
- used Nasty Plot
used Mirror Coat, there was no effect
- used Shadow Ball, Most of 's health is gone
used Haze, stat changes were reverted
- used Shadow Ball
fainted!

there is no reason to not keep clicking mirror coat here. trading milo for ghold is a good trade

 

[YubelVT]

this combo was always usable from the moment the home update dropped but only now its under fire simply because rillabooms usage hinges entirely on one move and thats peak comedy

bro thinks hawlucha won't come back if sneasler is banned. It turns out that grassy seed is a better item than white herb :)

 

[Ctann]

Ninetales broke bax
[the addition of grassy glide to] Rillaboom broke sneasler
Gliscor [a.k.a. Peak hazards] broke gholdengo
Kingambit is still broken