Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Ik the stall talk is done but like...
:sv/iron hands:
Iron Hands @ Leftovers / Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Poison / Fire
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake / Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Swords Dance

Answer me this question. How the FUCK is stall ever getting past a fuckin Iron Hands? "Oh just burn it" it has tera Fire and now you can't. "Oh just poison it" Swords Dance already negates 1 burn, and a +4 (effectively) Iron Hands already washes stall -- so tera Steel or Poison can work just fine here. "Just Haze it" oh sure but uum

220+ Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ Atk Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 244-288 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Not sure that'll work tomohawk. If they seriously terastallize a fucking Toxapex or Clodsire just to beat Iron Hands, it shows they can't beat it. And if you dare say Dondozo, let me remind you this thing can run an effective Booster Energy attack set and ALSO 2HKO that Unaware mon -- the same thing goes with Skeledirge. Legit this thing just 2 shots all Unaware mons, and with speed investment you could outspeed Skeledirge. Not like it's gonna hurt you but... It's worth noting.

And if you think this is a Stallkiller exclusive, it also beats non Tera Fairy Blast Kingambit as well, among other powerful things like Heatran, Dragonite etc. I mentioned this thing somewhere in another forum about countering pokemon (Lure that Threat?) and my nomination was Iron Hands. Use it. It's good
If this takes off I predict a rise in Quagsire usage on stall teams.
Incoming wall of calcs to show my point (I don't know how you invested in the Iron Hands in other stats so I will be assuming Max HP):
220+ Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 112-133 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 75-89 (19 - 22.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Iron Hands Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 176-210 (34.3 - 41%) -- 53.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Needless to say Iron Hands probably isn't getting through unaware Quagsire without Close Combat, and I'm only using the UU Physically Defensive set as a basis for these calcs. Now I don't think Quagsire is very good in OU when Clodsire exists, but it does stuff non-CC iron hands for stall teams and that's probably enough to run it. Hopefully stall remains bad though, as I am stall's biggest hater.



Also:
220+ Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ Atk Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 244-288 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
MINOR FORMATTING MISTAKE

OPINION INVALIDATED
 
220+ Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ Atk Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 244-288 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ah yes, my ohkos also do about 50%

i mean, yeah, iron hands is a good mon and all, that motherfucker is buzzwole-tier in terms of physical tanks (actually slightly above buzzwole-tier stat-wise—154/108 is marginally better bulk than 107/139, 140 attack is obviously marginally better than 139, and hands has significantly better special bulk) and it's got great matchups against stall and, more importantly, one of the single best matchups in the game against non-fairy kingambit
 
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I don't know if this is ok to talk about here, but Serebii played an early preview of the Indigo Disk, and in the article, Joe confirmed several new TMs returning as well as brand new moves. They are:

Expanding Force
Triple Axel
Skitter Smack
Meteor Beam
Scorching Sands
Coaching
Breaking Swipe
Curse
Electroweb
Upper Hand
Psychic Noise
Supercharged Cell: Information unknown
Hard Press: Steel-type move. Deals more damage the higher the opponent's HP is.

Excited?
 
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I don't know if this is ok to talk about here, but Serebii played an early preview of the Indigo Disk, and in the article, Joe confirmed several new TMs returning as well as brand new moves. They are:

Expanding Force
Rising Voltage (from process of elimination)
Triple Axel
Skitter Smack
Meteor Beam
Scorching Sands
Coaching
Breaking Swipe
Curse
Electroweb
Upper Hand
Psychic Noise
Supercharged Cell: Information unknown
Hard Press: Steel-type move. Deals more damage the higher the opponent's HP is.

Excited?
Rising Voltage seems like hell waiting to be unleashed depending on what pokemon are compatible with it
 
I don't know if this is ok to talk about here, but Serebii played an early preview of the Indigo Disk, and in the article, Joe confirmed several new TMs returning as well as brand new moves. They are:

Expanding Force
Rising Voltage (from process of elimination)
Triple Axel
Skitter Smack
Meteor Beam
Scorching Sands
Coaching
Breaking Swipe
Curse
Electroweb
Upper Hand
Psychic Noise
Supercharged Cell: Information unknown
Hard Press: Steel-type move. Deals more damage the higher the opponent's HP is.

Excited?
i think serebii confirmation is effectively the same as an official statement considering that joe merrick has clearly been on the tpci payroll for something like a decade now
 
I don't know if this is ok to talk about here, but Serebii played an early preview of the Indigo Disk, and in the article, Joe confirmed several new TMs returning as well as brand new moves. They are:

Expanding Force
Rising Voltage (from process of elimination)
Triple Axel
Skitter Smack
Meteor Beam
Scorching Sands
Coaching
Breaking Swipe
Curse
Electroweb
Upper Hand
Psychic Noise
Supercharged Cell: Information unknown
Hard Press: Steel-type move. Deals more damage the higher the opponent's HP is.

Excited?
A disturbing lack of defog from this list...
In case defog doesn't return, I think considering action on spikes in the future would be inevitable, I don't think there are many viable removers coming with DLC2.
 
That isn't all the TMs. There's supposed to be 28 new ones
remember, tpci payroll, which means it's part of his job to crush the hopes and dreams of competitive players. if defog is returning as a tm, we can rely on him not to mention it until release
In case defog doesn't return, I think considering action on spikes in the future would be inevitable, I don't think there are many viable removers coming with DLC2.
i can agree, but we need to take action on ghold first. if spikes are still at an unhealthy level of prominence in its absence, then we can discuss action on the move
 
Ik the stall talk is done but like...
:sv/iron hands:
Iron Hands @ Leftovers / Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Poison / Fire
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake / Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Swords Dance

Answer me this question. How the FUCK is stall ever getting past a fuckin Iron Hands? "Oh just burn it" it has tera Fire and now you can't. "Oh just poison it" Swords Dance already negates 1 burn, and a +4 (effectively) Iron Hands already washes stall -- so tera Steel or Poison can work just fine here. "Just Haze it" oh sure but uum

220+ Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ Atk Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 244-288 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Not sure that'll work tomohawk. If they seriously terastallize a fucking Toxapex or Clodsire just to beat Iron Hands, it shows they can't beat it. And if you dare say Dondozo, let me remind you this thing can run an effective Booster Energy attack set and ALSO 2HKO that Unaware mon -- the same thing goes with Skeledirge. Legit this thing just 2 shots all Unaware mons, and with speed investment you could outspeed Skeledirge. Not like it's gonna hurt you but... It's worth noting.

And if you think this is a Stallkiller exclusive, it also beats non Tera Fairy Blast Kingambit as well, among other powerful things like Heatran, Dragonite etc. I mentioned this thing somewhere in another forum about countering pokemon (Lure that Threat?) and my nomination was Iron Hands. Use it. It's good

ive been using iron hands in OU ever since pre-HOME and while its consistently managed to sweep/blow holes into many different team structures it really tends to shine against stall teams. slap on tera fire to take clefable and the occasional moltres and now youre unwallable since your STABs + ice punch hit every common stall pokemon super hard. and if the iron hands is running booster energy then you pretty much just lose on the spot no matter what your dondozo does. i find iron hands to be hard underrated in OU but fat is where that really starts to show since its just so efficient at breaking fat

I don't know if this is ok to talk about here, but Serebii played an early preview of the Indigo Disk, and in the article, Joe confirmed several new TMs returning as well as brand new moves. They are:

Expanding Force
Rising Voltage (probable)
Steel Roller (probable)
Triple Axel
Skitter Smack
Meteor Beam
Scorching Sands
Coaching
Breaking Swipe
Curse
Electroweb
Upper Hand
Psychic Noise
Supercharged Cell: Information unknown
Hard Press: Steel-type move. Deals more damage the higher the opponent's HP is.

Excited?

not too excited about the return of pre-nerf weavile w/ offensive tera to jack up its STABs honestly. im really hoping game freak cut triple axel from its learnset like how they cut scald from toxapex this DLC

That isn't all the TMs. There's supposed to be 28 new ones

hoping 2 of them are defog and roost but also what if we got our first rapid spin TM? wishful thinking, yes, but a woman can dream
 
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remember, tpci payroll, which means it's part of his job to crush the hopes and dreams of competitive players. if defog is returning as a tm, we can rely on him not to mention it until release
Bold of you to assume they wouldn't also completely neuter defog tm compatibility. Game Freak has buffed hazards to such an insane degree and they STILL aren't being used in VGC
 
hazards wouldve likely been more prevalent in regulation C should game freak (for whatever reason) have added kleavor and hisuian samurott pre-HOME. glimmora had seen quite a lot of success in that format and its presence made hazard stack stall a viable playstyle in VGC for what i believe to be the very first time. i have no doubt in my mind that kleavor and samurott-H would carved a niche for themselves as well, since switching was much more prominent in reg C than in any other VGC format so far this generation. so naturally their hazards would have much more impact on a game-to-game basis, especially since it could force FAAP cores (yes that was what the most common balance structure in the format was called, i am not kidding) to be more wary of switching around in the face of hazards. or forces them to adapt by running HDB instead of other useful items they would like to use instead

but we never got that because GF instead decided to drop them alongside urshifu and landorus-T, so honestly not sure what results they were expecting of those two pokemon
 
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I don't know if this is ok to talk about here, but Serebii played an early preview of the Indigo Disk, and in the article, Joe confirmed several new TMs returning as well as brand new moves. They are:

Expanding Force
Rising Voltage (probable)
Steel Roller (probable)
Triple Axel
Skitter Smack
Meteor Beam
Scorching Sands
Coaching
Breaking Swipe
Curse
Electroweb
Upper Hand
Psychic Noise
Supercharged Cell: Information unknown
Hard Press: Steel-type move. Deals more damage the higher the opponent's HP is.

Excited?
If anyone is interested in the preview itself (because it’s quite interesting) he made a video about it here:
 
ah yes, my ohkos also do about 50%

i mean, yeah, iron hands is a good mon and all, that motherfucker is buzzwole-tier in terms of physical tanks (actually slightly above buzzwole-tier stat-wise—154/108 is marginally better bulk than 107/139, 140 attack is obviously marginally better than 139, and hands has significantly better special bulk) and it's got great matchups against stall and, more importantly, one of the single best matchups in the game against non-fairy kingambit
I know this comparison makes sense because Iron Hands and Buzzwole have relatively similar stat spreads, but I'd like to imagine you just use buzzwole as a metric, like "chi-yu is a really good mon, it has approximately 3.9 buzzwoles worth of special attack".
 
Joe isn't on tcpi payroll bc that implies hes getting paid lol. Hes great free publicity and theyll probably use him more instead of releasing demos

remember that this is a preview meant to appeal to the general player, so i wouldnt be surprised if joe was told to pick more fun/cool moves to showcase instead of Defog and random status moves. No one gives a shit abt defog other than us and we're irrelevant lol
 
You know looking at Iron Hands stats as show in this thread I have to say it looks kinda underrated.

For example at the top of my head an idea: Does Charge work despite Unaware? If yes and of you lay hazards down don't you own Stall?

-----

Steel Type Wring Out could be nasty from the DLC
 
I don't know if this is ok to talk about here, but Serebii played an early preview of the Indigo Disk, and in the article, Joe confirmed several new TMs returning as well as brand new moves. They are:

Expanding Force
Rising Voltage (probable)
Steel Roller (probable)
Triple Axel
Skitter Smack
Meteor Beam
Scorching Sands
Coaching
Breaking Swipe
Curse
Electroweb
Upper Hand
Psychic Noise
Supercharged Cell: Information unknown
Hard Press: Steel-type move. Deals more damage the higher the opponent's HP is.

Excited?
so, here's my analysis on each of these returning moves:
  • expanding force: if tapu lele doesn't return, this will increase the viability of psyspam teams significantly by giving indeedee an extremely powerful stab option and letting it fulfill a bigger role than "set terrain and die". if tapu lele does return, psyspam teams will drop indeedee completely whether or not tapu lele gets expanding force; however, if lele does end up getting the move, it will likely end up either banned or a top-tier dominant (expanding) force in the meta
  • rising voltage: technically not a hard-and-fast confirmation, but if it does return, its viability will be determined entirely by the existence or nonexistence of tapu koko and which paradox mons get it. if koko doesn't come back, eterrain teams will likely remain an extremely niche option despite pincurchin getting a way stronger stab move because pincurchin fucking sucks. if iron valiant gets rising voltage, eterrain teams might see a bit more usage since that's way stronger than thunderbolt and allows for a non-booster-energy item. if koko itself gets rising voltage, it's over
  • steel roller: no one used this last gen, even when the tapus came back and rillaboom had an 80-power grassy glide. this gen, it's even worse for it since ice spinner does its job better
  • triple axel: weavile will definitely be returning to ou if it gets this move back. outside of that, i can't see much else using it unless cinccino comes back and gets tidy up; the move's distribution is not great
  • skitter smack: why did they even bring this back. what does it do
  • meteor beam: glimmora might use this in niche scenarios, but i can't see anything else using it unless nihilego comes back. maybe minior, but i doubt minior will see much usage in ou. moves with a charging turn and no way besides power herb to get around it are just not good
  • scorching sands: this one is entirely dependent upon what ends up with it. last gen, almost everything that got it either had another burn move, was too physical to dedicate a moveslot to it, didn't care about burning mons, or just wasn't viable in ou. if something like gastrodon were to get the move, though, i could see it being used. ting-lu might get this and that could be terrifying—even with base 55 spa, the ability to burn would likely justify dedicating a slot to it. gliscor getting this would also be a nightmare
  • coaching: useless in singles, not relevant to the discussion
  • breaking swipe: i can't really see anything willing to dedicate a moveslot to a 60-bp dragon move with a mid-ass effect
  • curse: a lot of the physical-tank or physical-wall mons that would benefit from curse already get it, but the prospect of iron hands getting it is intriguing—the mon is already slow, so curse is basically just bulk up on it, which it notably lacks. it would be even more of a physical powerhouse than it already is. curse as a tm also comes with the potential of curse gholdengo as a niche option—it can force progress on things ghold struggles to dent otherwise, such as putting gambit on a timer without risking sucker punch, and ghold can heal off the self-damage unlike most ghosts
  • electroweb: this move returning has widespread implications for the future of doubles. unfortunately for it, this is singles and we don't care about spread moves here
  • upper hand: yo dawg i heard you like sucker punch mindgames so we put a sucker punch mindgame on top of your sucker punch mindgame. depending on what gets it and how it works, this move could have far-reaching effects on priority in ou. sucker punch from gambit, grassy glide from rillaboom, and espeed from dragonite (especially tera normal, which gives it a weakness to the move) would be a lot harder to spam if they knew they'd have to suffer actual consequences for it. the one thing we should not do, though, is bring palafin back because we got a new anti-priority move. that thing can stay gone
  • psychic noise: wow, another thing that makes stall worse, who could have seen that coming. but in all seriousness, depending on the power and distribution of the move, this could turn a lot of things into more effective stall/balance-breakers, which is… not actually a good thing right now
  • supercharged cell: who knows
  • hard press: aw yeah, everyone loves wring out and crush grip. people sure remember those moves exist. running a move like this seems like it would be difficult to justify in a meta so centered around hazards—most of the time, your opponent will be chipped, so you won't be getting the full potential out of this move. probably works better against boots teams, but i still have my doubts
 
Joe isn't on tcpi payroll bc that implies hes getting paid lol. Hes great free publicity and theyll probably use him more instead of releasing demos

remember that this is a preview meant to appeal to the general player, so i wouldnt be surprised if joe was told to pick more fun/cool moves to showcase instead of Defog and random status moves. No one gives a shit abt defog other than us and we're irrelevant lol
I hope so, teleport and defog gotta return for the sake of the metagame, its why gholdengo is in danger
Ik the stall talk is done but like...
:sv/iron hands:
Iron Hands
clefable owns this
 
Honestly, I'd be surprised if the DLC doesn't end up including every move that has ever been teachable via TM and tutor. We're so close already to having that that at this point it would be strange if all but one or two old teachable moves aren't brought back except 1 or 2 when the list is so comprehensive at this point.
 
so, here's my analysis on each of these returning moves:
  • expanding force: if tapu lele doesn't return, this will increase the viability of psyspam teams significantly by giving indeedee an extremely powerful stab option and letting it fulfill a bigger role than "set terrain and die". if tapu lele does return, psyspam teams will drop indeedee completely whether or not tapu lele gets expanding force; however, if lele does end up getting the move, it will likely end up either banned or a top-tier dominant (expanding) force in the meta
  • rising voltage: technically not a hard-and-fast confirmation, but if it does return, its viability will be determined entirely by the existence or nonexistence of tapu koko and which paradox mons get it. if koko doesn't come back, eterrain teams will likely remain an extremely niche option despite pincurchin getting a way stronger stab move because pincurchin fucking sucks. if iron valiant gets rising voltage, eterrain teams might see a bit more usage since that's way stronger than thunderbolt and allows for a non-booster-energy item. if koko itself gets rising voltage, it's over
  • steel roller: no one used this last gen, even when the tapus came back and rillaboom had an 80-power grassy glide. this gen, it's even worse for it since ice spinner does its job better
  • triple axel: weavile will definitely be returning to ou if it gets this move back. outside of that, i can't see much else using it unless cinccino comes back and gets tidy up; the move's distribution is not great
  • skitter smack: why did they even bring this back. what does it do
  • meteor beam: glimmora might use this in niche scenarios, but i can't see anything else using it unless nihilego comes back. maybe minior, but i doubt minior will see much usage in ou. moves with a charging turn and no way besides power herb to get around it are just not good
  • scorching sands: this one is entirely dependent upon what ends up with it. last gen, almost everything that got it either had another burn move, was too physical to dedicate a moveslot to it, didn't care about burning mons, or just wasn't viable in ou. if something like gastrodon were to get the move, though, i could see it being used. ting-lu might get this and that could be terrifying—even with base 55 spa, the ability to burn would likely justify dedicating a slot to it. gliscor getting this would also be a nightmare
  • coaching: useless in singles, not relevant to the discussion
  • breaking swipe: i can't really see anything willing to dedicate a moveslot to a 60-bp dragon move with a mid-ass effect
  • curse: a lot of the physical-tank or physical-wall mons that would benefit from curse already get it, but the prospect of iron hands getting it is intriguing—the mon is already slow, so curse is basically just bulk up on it, which it notably lacks. it would be even more of a physical powerhouse than it already is. curse as a tm also comes with the potential of curse gholdengo as a niche option—it can force progress on things ghold struggles to dent otherwise, such as putting gambit on a timer without risking sucker punch, and ghold can heal off the self-damage unlike most ghosts
  • electroweb: this move returning has widespread implications for the future of doubles. unfortunately for it, this is singles and we don't care about spread moves here
  • upper hand: yo dawg i heard you like sucker punch mindgames so we put a sucker punch mindgame on top of your sucker punch mindgame. depending on what gets it and how it works, this move could have far-reaching effects on priority in ou. sucker punch from gambit, grassy glide from rillaboom, and espeed from dragonite (especially tera normal, which gives it a weakness to the move) would be a lot harder to spam if they knew they'd have to suffer actual consequences for it. the one thing we should not do, though, is bring palafin back because we got a new anti-priority move. that thing can stay gone
  • psychic noise: wow, another thing that makes stall worse, who could have seen that coming. but in all seriousness, depending on the power and distribution of the move, this could turn a lot of things into more effective stall/balance-breakers, which is… not actually a good thing right now
  • supercharged cell: who knows
  • hard press: aw yeah, everyone loves wring out and crush grip. people sure remember those moves exist. running a move like this seems like it would be difficult to justify in a meta so centered around hazards—most of the time, your opponent will be chipped, so you won't be getting the full potential out of this move. probably works better against boots teams, but i still have my doubts
I removed Rising Voltage and Steel Roller from the list cause those aren't technically confirmed yet. I was basing on process of elimination but then I realized that there's still including those, 4 more IoA moves that aren't on the list yet
 
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Another question: How much has webs been used in the past? In OU. They seem to be used more in Ubers, which isn't a balanced tier. The usage of Ribombee might say something about the OU tier.
 
Is there a precedent for a test ban? Could we ban Gholdengo and then reassess the tier in a little while? There definitely is an issue now with the DLC coming kinda soon, but maybe ban it and add it back in December?
this is an interesting idea that could give us valuable insight into the effects that ghold produces or doesn't produce upon the meta, so no, of course not
Test ladders were a thing in earlier gens. Smogon stopped using them because, iirc, they were splitting the playerbase without providing enough data to satisfy leadership.
 
so, here's my analysis on each of these returning moves:
  • scorching sands: this one is entirely dependent upon what ends up with it. last gen, almost everything that got it either had another burn move, was too physical to dedicate a moveslot to it, didn't care about burning mons, or just wasn't viable in ou. if something like gastrodon were to get the move, though, i could see it being used. ting-lu might get this and that could be terrifying—even with base 55 spa, the ability to burn would likely justify dedicating a slot to it. gliscor getting this would also be a nightmare

Yeah not a whole lot of relevant pokemon got scorching sands, however if Victini comes back it gives mixed sets a way to break through Heatran, as Scorching Sands actually is a very good option on mixed sets


So there are only a few we don't know I guess? Gamefreak not bringing back defog is a mistake 100% though if its not one of the ones we currently don't know or haven't seen since there are a few TMs we haven't seen yet
 
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