Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[YNM]

Iron Hands is 100% underrated, with those stats and Drain Punch to Recover some of its health everytime, it has a surprising longevity on the field. The main problem is that it has some popular checks in Tusk, Pult and Amoonguss, while also being pretty vulnerable to special revenge-killers due to its poor speed, mainly Valiant, Enamorus, Moth, Gren and potentially Zaptres with Hurricane. For this reason it's kinda forced to run a defensive Tera in order to survive these threats, and that's a pretty big commitment, and unless you're running Tera Fire it also fears getting burned. It does have an amazing matchup against Stall and Gambit tho, so there's that.

 

[viivian]

Another question: How much has webs been used in the past? In OU. They seem to be used more in Ubers, which isn't a balanced tier. The usage of Ribombee might say something about the OU tier.

its used in ubers because that format is full of brutally strong attackers who really appreciate the speed control and scarcity of hazard removal in the tier. not to mention there are only three "airborne" (as in flying type or levitate) pokemon in the meta, those being gliscor, rayquaza and giratina-O. and the former and the latter are mostly seen on teams you probably wouldnt be leading sticky web against

Iron Hands is 100% underrated, with those stats and Drain Punch to Recover some of its health everytime, it has a surprising longevity on the field. The main problem is that it has some popular checks in Tusk, Pult and Amoonguss, while also being pretty vulnerable to special revenge-killers due to its poor speed, mainly Valiant, Enamorus, Moth, Gren and potentially Zaptres with Hurricane. For this reason it's kinda forced to run a defensive Tera in order to survive these threats, and that's a pretty big commitment, and unless you're running Tera Fire it also fears getting burned. It does have an amazing matchup against Stall and Gambit tho, so there's that.

i find that iron hands is a very good and underrated pokemon in OU and ive been trying to explore some of its sweeping potential w/ SD for a very long time (as well as a choice band set pre-HOME and even an AV set on gliscor balance). its got a very unique stat spread, wide coverage and an interesting typing that provides huge offensive and defensive benefits against bulkier structures and gives it a great matchup into common threats such as samurott-H, kingambit and zapdos. though one thing i dont appreciate about it is how it can struggle against checks or common forms of counterplay to kingambit, and wants to run several options it cant fit into one slot. ive been experimenting with SD iron hands under grassy terrain w/ tera fire for a grass/fairy resistance and burn immunity + mental herb to block encore. ill likely have to get the paste once i get back home but its a rather specific set that mostly fits on grassy terrain. though in my experience testing with it ive found that it usually gets the job done and i believe it has some potential on other offensive structures besides terrain

 

[tigers jaw]

late as hell to the party, but i’ll just say that banning gholdengo won’t solve the hazards issue. once again, the root of the problem is the asymmetry between the number of viable setters vs. removers, and the ease of setting vs. removing.

the meta will still be stuck with a plethora of high-viability, autopilot setters, and less than a handful of viable means of removal - the best of which, tusk, having very limited longevity, & the others either being a stopgap as with cinderace, or poor as with corviknight.

sure, it will nerf certain styles to some extent, but webs/spikes ho will adapt by running pult or some other ghost as a spinblocker, and slower-paced hazards teams will still be able to win out longterm.

this feels very much reminiscent of the g6 baton pass tiering, where people chip away at the overall power of baton pass, only to, after all other options have been exhausted, come to the realisation that it was & always had been baton pass itself which was the problem.

that being said, i’ve been a gholdengo hater since day 1. it’s combination of bulk, typing, stats, etc. make it worthy of deliberation alone.

 

[Spheal boi]

Yeah not a whole lot of relevant pokemon got scorching sands, however if Victini comes back it gives mixed sets a way to break through Heatran, as Scorching Sands actually is a very good option on mixed sets

Not gonna watch the list of some of the TMs returning because I also want to remain blind since I'm gonna play the DLC in-game when it gets released (I'm really hoping that Spheal is also back), but what I want to say about the reply is that if Scorching Sands is back, which is useful besides the low relevant Pokémon who got it (which as I said I don't want to check to remain blind), then maybe also Triple Axel, which will be really useful for Weavile, but if also Ogerpon manages to get it, then her Wellspring form would probably be suspected since now can also hit SE Amoonguss (even if Rocky Helmet is common with it) and Tera Grass Dondozo, as not being forced to run Play Rough for Dragon types, which with her STABS she can't touch.
Ik I said these things multiple times, but while some people find Wellspring not a big problem and also useful, and rather have an eye on Manaphy, other people just don't like her as she also make difficult to use Rain teams.

 

[Sheerluck Holmes]

its used in ubers because that format is full of brutally strong attackers who really appreciate the speed control and appreciates the scarcity of hazard removal in the tier. not to mention there are only three "airborne" (as in flying type or levitate) pokemon in the meta, those being gliscor, rayquaza and giratina-O. and the former and the latter are mostly seen on teams you probably wouldnt be leading sticky web against



i find that iron hands is a very good and underrated pokemon in OU and ive been trying to explore some of its sweeping potential w/ SD for a very long time (as well as a choice band set pre-HOME and even an AV set on gliscor balance). its got a very unique stat spread, wide coverage and an interesting typing that provides huge offensive and defensive benefits against bulkier structures and gives it a great matchup into common threats such as samurott-H, kingambit and zapdos. though one thing i dont appreciate about it is how it can struggle against checks or common forms of counterplay to kingambit, and wants to run several options it cant fit into one slot. ive been experimenting with SD iron hands under grassy terrain w/ tera fire for a grass/fairy resistance and burn immunity + mental herb to block encore. ill likely have to get the paste once i get back home but its a rather specific set that mostly fits on grassy terrain. though in my experience testing with it ive found that it usually gets the job done and i believe it has some potential on other offensive structures besides terrain

Arceus-Flying exists but who in their right mind uses that?

 

[tigers jaw]

Arceus-Flying exists but who in their right mind uses that?

obligatory best moment in history post

 

[Funkytown]

late as hell to the party, but i’ll just say that banning gholdengo won’t solve the hazards issue. once again, the root of the problem is the asymmetry between the number of viable setters vs. removers, and the ease of setting vs. removing.

the meta will still be stuck with a plethora of high-viability, autopilot setters, and less than a handful of viable means of removal - the best of which, tusk, having very limited longevity, & the others either being a stopgap as with cinderace, or poor as with corviknight.

sure, it will nerf certain styles to some extent, but webs/spikes ho will adapt by running pult or some other ghost as a spinblocker, and slower-paced hazards teams will still be able to win out longterm.

this feels very much reminiscent of the g6 baton pass tiering, where people chip away at the overall power of baton pass, only to, after all other options have been exhausted, come to the realisation that it was & always had been baton pass itself which was the problem.

that being said, i’ve been a gholdengo hater since day 1. it’s combination of bulk, typing, stats, etc. make it worthy of deliberation alone.

I do agree with you for the most part that a Ghold ban is not going to solve the issue in and of itself. But I do think that it's worth noting that incremental changes to the metagame to limit how overbearing spinblocking and removal feels, is fundamentally a good thing. Tusk and Corv in particular will be under far less pressure, with Tusk's knock off for example threatening massive damage to ghosts that switch in for a spinblock.

In addition, if we remove Ghold, the number of viable removal options increases quite a bit, as stated by other users above who listed quite a few who could potentially rise to fill the removal niche.

 

[658Greninja]

late as hell to the party, but i’ll just say that banning gholdengo won’t solve the hazards issue. once again, the root of the problem is the asymmetry between the number of viable setters vs. removers, and the ease of setting vs. removing.

the meta will still be stuck with a plethora of high-viability, autopilot setters, and less than a handful of viable means of removal - the best of which, tusk, having very limited longevity, & the others either being a stopgap as with cinderace, or poor as with corviknight.

sure, it will nerf certain styles to some extent, but webs/spikes ho will adapt by running pult or some other ghost as a spinblocker, and slower-paced hazards teams will still be able to win out longterm.

this feels very much reminiscent of the g6 baton pass tiering, where people chip away at the overall power of baton pass, only to, after all other options have been exhausted, come to the realisation that it was & always had been baton pass itself which was the problem.

that being said, i’ve been a gholdengo hater since day 1. it’s combination of bulk, typing, stats, etc. make it worthy of deliberation alone.

Here is the thing tho. The Defoggers we have (Mandi and Corv), beat most of the common spike setters. The ones that do like Rockpon, Shocks, and Glimm are reserved for HO and sometimes don’t even run spikes. Tusk also becomes more consistent at spinblocking since it is not at an uphill battle with Ghold anymore.

It is worth noting that the biggest reason Gliscor was so problematic was that it outlasted all of our hazard removal. With most spike setters you can wear them down and outlast them. Most of them are frail and/or lack reliable recovery. So spinning or defogging hazards away becomes easier. Gliscor has been run on squads without Ghold cause it is so consistent at getting spikes up that it doesn’t care if Tusk goes for Spin. It’ll just Toxic it and come back to set them up again.

The three most common spike setters, Hamu, Ting-Lu, and Waterpon don’t even matchup well into our current Defoggers. Corv can 1v1 Hamu and threaten with BP. Waterpon loses the 1v1 to Mandi and it even lives a +2 Tera boosted Ivy. Both of them shit on Ting-Lu while being able to outlast them.

Corv also check several physical threats like Rilla while Mandi does the same but is less passive with Foul Play/Knock/Toxic. Matches up well into Waterpon, Pult, Dnite, Ceru, etc. Their viability as mons and as defoggers are held back by the fact Ghold hardwalls them.

Hazards will still be dominant this gen, but without Ghold, they will be much less brainless. I don’t think banning Ghold would suddenly save this meta, however it would fix many teambuilding problems.

 

[YNM]

Completely random question, but has anyone tried some gimmicky Weakness Policy sets? I may sound crazy, but I was thinking that you could maybe EV your mon to easily take a weak non-STAB hit, and use Tera to actually make yourself vulnerable to that move in order to trigger the item. Dumb example: you get your bulky Luxray (I know, it's just an example) into your opponent's Zapdos, you then Tera Grass and use Trailblaze as the Zapdos uses U-turn to switch into a better matchup, and you now have a Luxray with 393 Speed and 544 Atk minimum. I know it's an idiotic strategy but hey, why the hell not get creative from time to time.

 

[viivian]

besides some endure + weak armor + weakness policy armarouge cheese on psyspam builds, no

 

[Ehmcee]

I think that something super important when it comes to banning Pokemon, and that a lot of people don't consider as much is the environment where a Pokemon resides, and how it affects how good a Pokemon is in a meta.

A lot of people instinctively compare a Pokemon to how it's been in the past, something like Hoopa-Unbound for example was obscenely broken and got banned from gen 6 OU, however is now bordering UUBL in gen 9. While this is obviously due to power-creep, it shows that environment's can change to allow Pokemon to be more balanced.

If we talk about Gholdengo for a second, many people will rush to show that it was considered broken and was banned from gen 9 Natdex, a tier with EVEN MORE options than Gen 9 OU. Inherently, you'd think "How can a Pokemon be more balanced in a metagame with less options?". You could even show something like Gliscor in gen 9 OU, which has less options than it's NatDex counterpart, but is more broken in this more confined environment as opposed to NatDex.

A big part of what I'm saying here is that I've seen a growing sentiment of people that want a lot of these bans to be "definitive". People saying that we're "wasting time" by doing suspects that could ultimately be reversed come the DLC.

I want to reiterate that we have 0 idea how the post-DLC2 metagame will look like, we barely even know the mons that are returning, and even less about the new pokemon that are arriving, and even less about the changes to the Tera Mechanic. Who knows, maybe there'll be 6 new Gholdengo counters in this coming metagame that deal with it extremely well, maybe we'll have a ton of new Kingambit checks, maybe we get good viable grass types that beat Ogerpon.

Ultimately just some food for thought

 

[ianlazerbeem]

so, here's my analysis on each of these returning moves:

Spoiler

• expanding force: if tapu lele doesn't return, this will increase the viability of psyspam teams significantly by giving indeedee an extremely powerful stab option and letting it fulfill a bigger role than "set terrain and die". if tapu lele does return, psyspam teams will drop indeedee completely whether or not tapu lele gets expanding force; however, if lele does end up getting the move, it will likely end up either banned or a top-tier dominant (expanding) force in the meta
• rising voltage: technically not a hard-and-fast confirmation, but if it does return, its viability will be determined entirely by the existence or nonexistence of tapu koko and which paradox mons get it. if koko doesn't come back, eterrain teams will likely remain an extremely niche option despite pincurchin getting a way stronger stab move because pincurchin fucking sucks. if iron valiant gets rising voltage, eterrain teams might see a bit more usage since that's way stronger than thunderbolt and allows for a non-booster-energy item. if koko itself gets rising voltage, it's over
• steel roller: no one used this last gen, even when the tapus came back and rillaboom had an 80-power grassy glide. this gen, it's even worse for it since ice spinner does its job better
• triple axel: weavile will definitely be returning to ou if it gets this move back. outside of that, i can't see much else using it unless cinccino comes back and gets tidy up; the move's distribution is not great
• skitter smack: why did they even bring this back. what does it do
• meteor beam: glimmora might use this in niche scenarios, but i can't see anything else using it unless nihilego comes back. maybe minior, but i doubt minior will see much usage in ou. moves with a charging turn and no way besides power herb to get around it are just not good
• scorching sands: this one is entirely dependent upon what ends up with it. last gen, almost everything that got it either had another burn move, was too physical to dedicate a moveslot to it, didn't care about burning mons, or just wasn't viable in ou. if something like gastrodon were to get the move, though, i could see it being used. ting-lu might get this and that could be terrifying—even with base 55 spa, the ability to burn would likely justify dedicating a slot to it. gliscor getting this would also be a nightmare
• coaching: useless in singles, not relevant to the discussion
• breaking swipe: i can't really see anything willing to dedicate a moveslot to a 60-bp dragon move with a mid-ass effect
• curse: a lot of the physical-tank or physical-wall mons that would benefit from curse already get it, but the prospect of iron hands getting it is intriguing—the mon is already slow, so curse is basically just bulk up on it, which it notably lacks. it would be even more of a physical powerhouse than it already is. curse as a tm also comes with the potential of curse gholdengo as a niche option—it can force progress on things ghold struggles to dent otherwise, such as putting gambit on a timer without risking sucker punch, and ghold can heal off the self-damage unlike most ghosts
• electroweb: this move returning has widespread implications for the future of doubles. unfortunately for it, this is singles and we don't care about spread moves here
• upper hand: yo dawg i heard you like sucker punch mindgames so we put a sucker punch mindgame on top of your sucker punch mindgame. depending on what gets it and how it works, this move could have far-reaching effects on priority in ou. sucker punch from gambit, grassy glide from rillaboom, and espeed from dragonite (especially tera normal, which gives it a weakness to the move) would be a lot harder to spam if they knew they'd have to suffer actual consequences for it. the one thing we should not do, though, is bring palafin back because we got a new anti-priority move. that thing can stay gone
• psychic noise: wow, another thing that makes stall worse, who could have seen that coming. but in all seriousness, depending on the power and distribution of the move, this could turn a lot of things into more effective stall/balance-breakers, which is… not actually a good thing right now
• supercharged cell: who knows
• hard press: aw yeah, everyone loves wring out and crush grip. people sure remember those moves exist. running a move like this seems like it would be difficult to justify in a meta so centered around hazards—most of the time, your opponent will be chipped, so you won't be getting the full potential out of this move. probably works better against boots teams, but i still have my doubts

My hope is that psychic noise doesn't make a huge difference, no way do they make its power higher than 70 and taunt already exists and is widely spread which basically has the same effects. Stall also already preps for psychic moves thanks to Psyshock and Stored Cheese

 

[Magcargo]

Completely random question, but has anyone tried some gimmicky Weakness Policy sets? I may sound crazy, but I was thinking that you could maybe EV your mon to easily take a weak non-STAB hit, and use Tera to actually make yourself vulnerable to that move in order to trigger the item. Dumb example: you get your bulky Luxray (I know, it's just an example) into your opponent's Zapdos, you then Tera Grass and use Trailblaze as the Zapdos uses U-turn to switch into a better matchup, and you now have a Luxray with 393 Speed and 544 Atk minimum. I know it's an idiotic strategy but hey, why the hell not get creative from time to time.

Anything with Stored Power could feasibly run a Weakness Policy set well with Screens support. I got cheesed by this in UU with cheese Cress that didn't even need to Tera and broke past my Lowkix and Weavile with Moonblast lmaoooo.

I think that something super important when it comes to banning Pokemon, and that a lot of people don't consider as much is the environment where a Pokemon resides, and how it affects how good a Pokemon is in a meta.

A lot of people instinctively compare a Pokemon to how it's been in the past, something like Hoopa-Unbound for example was obscenely broken and got banned from gen 6 OU, however is now bordering UUBL in gen 9. While this is obviously due to power-creep, it shows that environment's can change to allow Pokemon to be more balanced.

If we talk about Gholdengo for a second, many people will rush to show that it was considered broken and was banned from gen 9 Natdex, a tier with EVEN MORE options than Gen 9 OU. Inherently, you'd think "How can a Pokemon be more balanced in a metagame with less options?". You could even show something like Gliscor in gen 9 OU, which has less options than it's NatDex counterpart, but is more broken in this more confined environment as opposed to NatDex.

A big part of what I'm saying here is that I've seen a growing sentiment of people that want a lot of these bans to be "definitive". People saying that we're "wasting time" by doing suspects that could ultimately be reversed come the DLC.

I want to reiterate that we have 0 idea how the post-DLC2 metagame will look like, we barely even know the mons that are returning, and even less about the new pokemon that are arriving, and even less about the changes to the Tera Mechanic. Who knows, maybe there'll be 6 new Gholdengo counters in this coming metagame that deal with it extremely well, maybe we'll have a ton of new Kingambit checks, maybe we get good viable grass types that beat Ogerpon.

Ultimately just some food for thought

Hoopa's issue is that its a stallbreaker in a tier where Stall doesn't exist (UU) which is why it isn't even UUBL

As for Dengo, it only got banned by one vote in ND. Personally, even when it was legal I didn't find it to monopolize the hazard game too much (you only needed to run 2 boots mons on most teams), but that was just my opinion.

 

[Ibaragi]

sure, it will nerf certain styles to some extent, but webs/spikes ho will adapt by running pult or some other ghost as a spinblocker, and slower-paced hazards teams will still be able to win out longterm.

In what world of understanding is having a mon that turns Defog, Rapid Spin and Mortal Spin (literally all forms of removal except Tidy Up) into a free switch-in and a mon that blocks only Rapid Spin and gets countered by either of our most prominent defoggers (Corv if physical, Mandibuzz if special) even remotely comparable. Even if they weren't counters to pult, just the fact that you can bring any defogger on a switch to a check and ensure that they can remove hazards at the very least would turn the current meta into an entirely different game altogether.
And may I add, the only reason why Hazards are remotely balanced and not overpowered in 6v6 singles is precisely because there are moves that can remove them. Finch said once that mons aren't entitled to the power of removing hazards, but I'd say they should be, at least to some degree: otherwise, the entire meta just becomes warped into a hazard-fest where switching and positioning, one of the pivotal factors towards the competitivity of this game, becomes punishing by nature.

but i’ll just say that banning gholdengo won’t solve the hazards issue

My biggest problem with this line is that it may be true, but it sets us into a very difficult position. Because we know what a meta with Gholdengo looks like, but we can only guess and assume what a meta without Gholdengo would be. And if we accept that he "maybe" isn't the solution to the problem and can't ban him unless we're sure, then we'd be accepting a premise that we cannot confirm, locking us into a position where the only way to prove that Gholdengo should be banned, is to ban it first.
Even if banning him isn't the solution to the hazards problem of Gen 9 as a whole, it's a necessary step to know in what direction to move to tackle the problem. It doesn't have to be permanent (tho I believe it should be, but again, that's just a belief), but it must be done at some point to better know what best course of action to take.

 

[Moyashi]

In what world of understanding is having a mon that turns Defog, Rapid Spin and Mortal Spin (literally all forms of removal except Tidy Up) into a free switch-in and a mon that blocks only Rapid Spin and gets countered by either of our most prominent defoggers (Corv if physical, Mandibuzz if special) even remotely comparable. Even if they weren't counters to pult, just the fact that you can bring any defogger on a switch to a check and ensure that they can remove hazards at the very least would turn the current meta into an entirely different game altogether

Mandibuzz is viable for its iron defense foul play set, and even without Gholdengo wouldn't really be a good defogger as it's still super exploitable (an issue it faced last gen too which is why it wasn't super good after a while). We have Corv as the only truly good defogger and that alone isn't enough.

Finch said once that mons aren't entitled to the power of removing hazards, but I'd say they should be, at least to some degree: otherwise, the entire meta just becomes warped into a hazard-fest where switching and positioning, one of the pivotal factors towards the competitivity of this game, becomes punishing by nature.

Not being entitled to remove them means you should have to work to do so, not that you shouldn't be able to at all. And I agree. Removing Gholdengo isn't going to drastically improve the hazard issue like some people believe. We already have a short list of removers which is the actual issue, and the main way that'll get fixed is if GF grows balls and gives us more removal in DLC2.

so, here's my analysis on each of these returning moves:

Spoiler

• expanding force: if tapu lele doesn't return, this will increase the viability of psyspam teams significantly by giving indeedee an extremely powerful stab option and letting it fulfill a bigger role than "set terrain and die". if tapu lele does return, psyspam teams will drop indeedee completely whether or not tapu lele gets expanding force; however, if lele does end up getting the move, it will likely end up either banned or a top-tier dominant (expanding) force in the meta
• rising voltage: technically not a hard-and-fast confirmation, but if it does return, its viability will be determined entirely by the existence or nonexistence of tapu koko and which paradox mons get it. if koko doesn't come back, eterrain teams will likely remain an extremely niche option despite pincurchin getting a way stronger stab move because pincurchin fucking sucks. if iron valiant gets rising voltage, eterrain teams might see a bit more usage since that's way stronger than thunderbolt and allows for a non-booster-energy item. if koko itself gets rising voltage, it's over
• steel roller: no one used this last gen, even when the tapus came back and rillaboom had an 80-power grassy glide. this gen, it's even worse for it since ice spinner does its job better
• triple axel: weavile will definitely be returning to ou if it gets this move back. outside of that, i can't see much else using it unless cinccino comes back and gets tidy up; the move's distribution is not great
• skitter smack: why did they even bring this back. what does it do
• meteor beam: glimmora might use this in niche scenarios, but i can't see anything else using it unless nihilego comes back. maybe minior, but i doubt minior will see much usage in ou. moves with a charging turn and no way besides power herb to get around it are just not good
• scorching sands: this one is entirely dependent upon what ends up with it. last gen, almost everything that got it either had another burn move, was too physical to dedicate a moveslot to it, didn't care about burning mons, or just wasn't viable in ou. if something like gastrodon were to get the move, though, i could see it being used. ting-lu might get this and that could be terrifying—even with base 55 spa, the ability to burn would likely justify dedicating a slot to it. gliscor getting this would also be a nightmare
• coaching: useless in singles, not relevant to the discussion
• breaking swipe: i can't really see anything willing to dedicate a moveslot to a 60-bp dragon move with a mid-ass effect
• curse: a lot of the physical-tank or physical-wall mons that would benefit from curse already get it, but the prospect of iron hands getting it is intriguing—the mon is already slow, so curse is basically just bulk up on it, which it notably lacks. it would be even more of a physical powerhouse than it already is. curse as a tm also comes with the potential of curse gholdengo as a niche option—it can force progress on things ghold struggles to dent otherwise, such as putting gambit on a timer without risking sucker punch, and ghold can heal off the self-damage unlike most ghosts
• electroweb: this move returning has widespread implications for the future of doubles. unfortunately for it, this is singles and we don't care about spread moves here
• upper hand: yo dawg i heard you like sucker punch mindgames so we put a sucker punch mindgame on top of your sucker punch mindgame. depending on what gets it and how it works, this move could have far-reaching effects on priority in ou. sucker punch from gambit, grassy glide from rillaboom, and espeed from dragonite (especially tera normal, which gives it a weakness to the move) would be a lot harder to spam if they knew they'd have to suffer actual consequences for it. the one thing we should not do, though, is bring palafin back because we got a new anti-priority move. that thing can stay gone
• psychic noise: wow, another thing that makes stall worse, who could have seen that coming. but in all seriousness, depending on the power and distribution of the move, this could turn a lot of things into more effective stall/balance-breakers, which is… not actually a good thing right now
• supercharged cell: who knows
• hard press: aw yeah, everyone loves wring out and crush grip. people sure remember those moves exist. running a move like this seems like it would be difficult to justify in a meta so centered around hazards—most of the time, your opponent will be chipped, so you won't be getting the full potential out of this move. probably works better against boots teams, but i still have my doubts

You bring up some interesting possibilities with moves. I actually think Meteor Beam Glimmora could be fun on webs teams, not necessarily consistent but fun. Curse Iron Hands is something I've wanted after GF trolled it with no BU. Curse would make it a super fat wincon and I'd love that.

Scorching Sands is the move I'm mainly interested in ATM in terms of returning moves. Moltres getting it back means Heatran can't check it anymore, but for new mons getting it, Ting Lu would probably jave legitimate use for it in the Great Tusk match up. Burning it and thus crippling its ability to spin on it g consistently. Also good into Rilla switch ins.

I don't think Upper Hand will be relevant in singles. It seems pretty clearly designed for vgc stuff. And fuck psychic noise.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I don't think Upper Hand will be relevant in singles. It seems pretty clearly designed for vgc stuff.

depends on how strong the move is and whether it out-priorities espeed. if it does, that could makes it the single best tool in the game against e-killer dragonite by forcing it into a 50/50 every turn (of course this also depends on whether something gets the move that can withstand eq). even if it doesn't work on espeed, it might be able to provide some relief against gambit sucker punch and burn a couple grassy terrain turns against rillaboom. i don't think it'll be widespread because it's useless against most mons, but because of how strong our priority mons are, i think it'll see some usage. not enough usage to make dragonite start running inner focus, but some.

 

[Ibaragi]

and the main way that'll get fixed is if GF grows balls and gives us more removal in DLC2

you say "main", I think you mean "only". From your perspective, anyway.
If the problem for hazards is removal distribution, then that's all the more a reason to ban Gholdengo. Because we have no power whatsoever over what mons get what moves. We cannot decide who gets Defog/Spin, we cannot control what mons Dexit and which don't. As far as the process of tiering as it is today care, there's only one thing we can control: Bans.
At best, the argument that we need better removal distribution means waiting for DLC2 in hopes that the wish is granted by GF, which is irrelevant for the meta today. At worst, it's the admission that we have a hazard problem, but we can't nor should do anything about it because "Gholdengo is not the problem", which seems like a very weak argument for total immobility.
If DLC2 gives more defoggers, then unban Gholdengo then and retest it. The council stated that all current and recent bans and suspects are looking at the meta today and today alone.
Unless you have an alternative proposition to solve or at least improve this situation that doesn't involve waiting for DLC2, that is.

Also, and while I don't find this to be particularly relevant and thus don't want to delve too much, ID+Foul Play Mandibuzz is just the set that "fits" the current meta. It's her best set right now, sure, but not the only reason why she's viable and assuming that she'd still struggle to stay relevant in a meta where she can at least defog without becoming a free switch + set-up fodder for Dengho is bold, to say the least.

In any case, I'd like to remind everyone that Gholdengo isn't broken because of its influence on hazards nor because of it's prowess against bulky teams, but for the fact that he does both at the same time. Let's not forget that Factor A and Factor B are always together and cannot be separated: Gholdengo is not a mon that "only" warps the hazard meta, not will it ever be "only" a glue-mon with myriad of great options.

 

[YubelVT]

"one liner". Let me teach u what's a one liner

I thought about this post again and it made me laugh uncontrollably, this was so fucking funny.

Anyway uh, I think y'all are underrating milotic still. Good special wall with a momentum move so it's not as passive as blissey, getting it para'd or burnt gives it decent physical bulk, and it completely walls walking wake (don't switch in on a specs meteor tho).

 

[Casteliacone]

so, here's my analysis on each of these returning moves:

Spoiler

• expanding force: if tapu lele doesn't return, this will increase the viability of psyspam teams significantly by giving indeedee an extremely powerful stab option and letting it fulfill a bigger role than "set terrain and die". if tapu lele does return, psyspam teams will drop indeedee completely whether or not tapu lele gets expanding force; however, if lele does end up getting the move, it will likely end up either banned or a top-tier dominant (expanding) force in the meta
• rising voltage: technically not a hard-and-fast confirmation, but if it does return, its viability will be determined entirely by the existence or nonexistence of tapu koko and which paradox mons get it. if koko doesn't come back, eterrain teams will likely remain an extremely niche option despite pincurchin getting a way stronger stab move because pincurchin fucking sucks. if iron valiant gets rising voltage, eterrain teams might see a bit more usage since that's way stronger than thunderbolt and allows for a non-booster-energy item. if koko itself gets rising voltage, it's over
• steel roller: no one used this last gen, even when the tapus came back and rillaboom had an 80-power grassy glide. this gen, it's even worse for it since ice spinner does its job better
• triple axel: weavile will definitely be returning to ou if it gets this move back. outside of that, i can't see much else using it unless cinccino comes back and gets tidy up; the move's distribution is not great
• skitter smack: why did they even bring this back. what does it do
• meteor beam: glimmora might use this in niche scenarios, but i can't see anything else using it unless nihilego comes back. maybe minior, but i doubt minior will see much usage in ou. moves with a charging turn and no way besides power herb to get around it are just not good
• scorching sands: this one is entirely dependent upon what ends up with it. last gen, almost everything that got it either had another burn move, was too physical to dedicate a moveslot to it, didn't care about burning mons, or just wasn't viable in ou. if something like gastrodon were to get the move, though, i could see it being used. ting-lu might get this and that could be terrifying—even with base 55 spa, the ability to burn would likely justify dedicating a slot to it. gliscor getting this would also be a nightmare
• coaching: useless in singles, not relevant to the discussion
• breaking swipe: i can't really see anything willing to dedicate a moveslot to a 60-bp dragon move with a mid-ass effect
• curse: a lot of the physical-tank or physical-wall mons that would benefit from curse already get it, but the prospect of iron hands getting it is intriguing—the mon is already slow, so curse is basically just bulk up on it, which it notably lacks. it would be even more of a physical powerhouse than it already is. curse as a tm also comes with the potential of curse gholdengo as a niche option—it can force progress on things ghold struggles to dent otherwise, such as putting gambit on a timer without risking sucker punch, and ghold can heal off the self-damage unlike most ghosts
• electroweb: this move returning has widespread implications for the future of doubles. unfortunately for it, this is singles and we don't care about spread moves here
• upper hand: yo dawg i heard you like sucker punch mindgames so we put a sucker punch mindgame on top of your sucker punch mindgame. depending on what gets it and how it works, this move could have far-reaching effects on priority in ou. sucker punch from gambit, grassy glide from rillaboom, and espeed from dragonite (especially tera normal, which gives it a weakness to the move) would be a lot harder to spam if they knew they'd have to suffer actual consequences for it. the one thing we should not do, though, is bring palafin back because we got a new anti-priority move. that thing can stay gone
• psychic noise: wow, another thing that makes stall worse, who could have seen that coming. but in all seriousness, depending on the power and distribution of the move, this could turn a lot of things into more effective stall/balance-breakers, which is… not actually a good thing right now
• supercharged cell: who knows
• hard press: aw yeah, everyone loves wring out and crush grip. people sure remember those moves exist. running a move like this seems like it would be difficult to justify in a meta so centered around hazards—most of the time, your opponent will be chipped, so you won't be getting the full potential out of this move. probably works better against boots teams, but i still have my doubts

First post round these parts, I've lurked enough around here I think to actually post. I think a really good potential scorching sands user is skeledirge if it ends up getting it, which is likely as all other fire starters that were in swsh learned the move, as well as it already having access earth power. Scorching Sands enables skeledirge to spread burn while also carrying ground coverage for the likes of heatran, moth, and glimmora, and even doing decent chunks to garg with a torch song boost. There is an oppurtunity cost to this, namely in regards to the dragonite matchup if they don't terastalize, but I think it's a notable potential tool to bolster its presence both offensively and defensively.
+2 8 SpA Skeledirge Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 8 SpA Skeledirge Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 304-360 (100.9 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 8 SpA Skeledirge Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Heatran: 236-280 (61.1 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hope everything is up to code, still new to posting (flinchinator don't put me in the spikes contraption)

 

[mullet boy games]

im so sick of all of my teams geting ruined becuse all of the good mons get baned scor is not broken sneaser is not broken

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

(flinchinator don't put me in the spikes contraption)

too late, all of ou is the spikes contraption now

I think a really good potential scorching sands user is skeledirge if it ends up getting it, which is likely as all other fire starters that were in swsh learned the move, as well as it already having access earth power.

good thinking! that could be a solid alternative option to wisp if you have another dragonite answer on the team (or if dragonite has already tera'd, for that matter). i expect that, if it does get the move, dirge will end up running scorching sands on shadow ball sets and keep wisp on hex sets because wisp's a more reliable burning tool

im so sick of all of my teams geting ruined becuse all of the good mons get baned scor is not broken sneaser is not broken

hmm, that's certainly a predicament. have you tried not leaning so heavily on broken mons?

 

[Casteliacone]

too late, all of ou is the spikes contraption now

good thinking! that could be a solid alternative option to wisp if you have another dragonite answer on the team (or if dragonite has already tera'd, for that matter). i expect that, if it does get the move, dirge will end up running scorching sands on shadow ball sets and keep wisp on hex sets because wisp's a more reliable burning tool

hmm, that's certainly a predicament. have you tried not leaning so heavily on broken mons?

oof ouchie my bones (he was forced to be put in the spikes contraption)
but the thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it
I did kinda just remember that volc got scorching sands, meaning moth might potentially get it as well which is something I don't want to think about right now, moth having crucial ground coverage without having to tera is kind of a frightening proposition

 

[Return to Zero]

im so sick of all of my teams geting ruined becuse all of the good mons get baned scor is not broken sneaser is not broken

They are. Make less teams that need a crutch in order to function.

oof ouchie my bones (he was forced to be put in the spikes contraption)
but the thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it
I did kinda just remember that volc got scorching sands, meaning moth might potentially get it as well which is something I don't want to think about right now, moth having crucial ground coverage without having to tera is kind of a frightening proposition

Iron Moth with native Ground coverage would be insane. I think it will still suffer from 4MSS since it wants all of Fiery Dance/Sludge Wave/Energy Ball/Psychic/Substitute and Scorching Sands will be another constraint on that, but it'll make it that much more terrifying to try and guess what coverage it has.

 

[YubelVT]

im so sick of all of my teams geting ruined becuse all of the good mons get baned scor is not broken sneaser is not broken

post elo

Iron Moth with native Ground coverage would be insane. I think it will still suffer from 4MSS since it wants all of Fiery Dance/Sludge Wave/Energy Ball/Psychic/Substitute and Scorching Sands will be another constraint on that, but it'll make it that much more terrifying to try and guess what coverage it has.

Iron Moth with native ground coverage might actually be banworthy actually. Like being able to deal with its one hard wall in heatran without using tera is really good

 

[Avira]

I agree with those who have said that Iron Moth with natural Ground coverage is quite possibly banworthy. Scorching Sands would let Iron Moth hit Heatran, Toxapex, Skeledirge, opposing Iron Moth, Glimmora, Garganacl, Goodra-Hisui, and Clodsire (although it needs to Tera to beat Clod and Hoodra) all in one slot, which would be a big buff to it, making it more consistent in general by improving its spread of match-ups.