Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

seeing the Cobalion post remind me why Special LO Cyclizar is always the king set

:Cyclizar:
Cyclizar @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- U-turn / whatever you want
- Rapid Spin
252 SpA Life Orb Cyclizar Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 361-426 (111.7 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Cyclizar Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 299-354 (94.9 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Cyclizar Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 343-406 (79 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Cyclizar Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 259-305 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
 
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Pokemon Trainer: Shadow said:
Well we do have a new Mythical coming in about two weeks, but yea.

Also Merry belated Christmas everybody.
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True but honestly don't know how impactful it will be. Offensive stats and movepool are quite bad, with its physical bulk being the only thing it has over Gengar, who is already bad. It probably will have a nice nieche in Bulky Offense and Balance though for which I am pretty excited but it desperately needs a better movepool to avoid becoming a Tera hog.
 
I was able to climb pretty high up on the ladder (top 23 but who's counting :p) using a variant of the team I shared few days ago. Overall I'd say the meta has been pretty "balanced" so far with multiple playstyles and a variety of mons having good usage. Most of the teams I played were hyper or bulky offense but I did run into some stall occasionally as well. As far as the biggest threats at the moments for "on the radar" purposes, I would say: Gliscor, Enamorus (cuz stellar), Roaring Moon, and Kingambit are the top dogs in my opinion. But yeah, that's my two cents on the meta so far - been enjoying the ladder so far tho for sure.
 
ZannaBianca99 said:
True but honestly don't know how impactful it will be. Offensive stats and movepool are quite bad, with its physical bulk being the only thing it has over Gengar, who is already bad. It probably will have a nice nieche in Bulky Offense and Balance though for which I am pretty excited but it desperately needs a better movepool to avoid becoming a Tera hog.
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My biggest fear is that pecharunt becomes a stall staple with its 50% toxic chance.... (Good thing the cheese string man kinda stops him from doing that )
 
ZannaBianca99 said:
True but honestly don't know how impactful it will be. Offensive stats and movepool are quite bad, with its physical bulk being the only thing it has over Gengar, who is already bad. It probably will have a nice nieche in Bulky Offense and Balance though for which I am pretty excited but it desperately needs a better movepool to avoid becoming a Tera hog.
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Its utility movepool as datamined right now is pretty good for something that will be basically impossible to kill Physically. Bear in mind Gengar's typing is really good but restricted by his glassy nature, such that even his resistances could 2HKO him. Pecharunt doesn't look to have that issue, and given the narrow coverage I doubt they would have been comparable offensively anyway.

Parting Shot, Mean Look (given its whole gimmick is using Toxic), Recover, Nasty Plot for a bulky win condition, and even Foul Play to exploit the mentioned Physical Bulk by sponging a hit from a set-up Sweeper.
 
Merry late xmas, on a flight so missed it. Can anyone rank playstyles for me in dlc2 meta so I can know what to build? Playstyles, I mean HO, Stall, BO, et cetera but you can add anything notable on the end as well. If anyone responds, thanks.
 
Focus Energy Archaludon is a funny set. Bypasses Draco Meteor Stat drops and completely nukes common switch-ins like Gliscor, Volcarona, Toxapex, and Gking. Sadly been on a losing streak running it since it trades net neutrally in most cases.

Idk how yall feel, but defensive Gliscor doesn't feel like that guy anymore. Too many teams are running things that give it trouble, whether it be Axel Meow, Ice Beam Deo-S, darkrai, balloon steels, hatterene, etc. I feel there are several situations its preferable to run Lando-T due to helmet chip + Intimidate. Swords Dance is still an amazing set though
 
pika pal said:
Its utility movepool as datamined right now is pretty good for something that will be basically impossible to kill Physically. Bear in mind Gengar's typing is really good but restricted by his glassy nature, such that even his resistances could 2HKO him. Pecharunt doesn't look to have that issue, and given the narrow coverage I doubt they would have been comparable offensively anyway.

Parting Shot, Mean Look (given its whole gimmick is using Toxic), Recover, Nasty Plot for a bulky win condition, and even Foul Play to exploit the mentioned Physical Bulk by sponging a hit from a set-up Sweeper.
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It is true that they cover different niches but the support movepool is lacking as well unfortunately
No Wisp, Twave, Taunt or boosting move for bulk or Speed and no Fighting or Fairy coverage means that Gambit and Garg can just come in and do what they want. Also while it is very bulky physically, specially it's not that impressive, especially with Darkrai, Latios and Deo-S running around. To me it's frustrustrating because even if it just got Calm Mind it would be so much for it.
 
Gen 9 Pre-DLC2 Be Like:
IMG_0048.jpeg
 
Last tilt of the year;
:Deoxys_Speed: has no business for OU.
:Roaring Moon: Thanks for the Christmas visit but you can go, quickly.
Paradox mons x :Booster Energy: : I don't care. If they want to ban several good users to keep an item that makes them broken or let's get rid of the common denominator, I don't care. Something just happens.
:Gholdengo: Changed 0. After Terastal and quick bans, it should be the priority. Its influence on the metagame will affect the long term of development and the way we play SV.
wtf is Stellar? Take a one-way ticket, things were already pretty messy before you showed up.
 
SwishNSlash said:
My biggest fear is that pecharunt becomes a stall staple with its 50% toxic chance.... (Good thing the cheese string man kinda stops him from doing that )
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Thing is, Gliscor has a 90% toxic chance, and also spikes and knock off, it seems a lot better to run a Pokémon with few exploitable weaknesses and near infinite bulk than one with no useful resistances and very little overall utility
 
Tio Chico said:
Last tilt of the year;
:Deoxys_Speed: has no business for OU.
:Roaring Moon: Thanks for the Christmas visit but you can go, quickly.
Paradox mons x :Booster Energy: : I don't care. If they want to ban several good users to keep an item that makes them broken or let's get rid of the common denominator, I don't care. Something just happens.
:Gholdengo: Changed 0. After Terastal and quick bans, it should be the priority. Its influence on the metagame will affect the long term of development and the way we play SV.
wtf is Stellar? Take a one-way ticket, things were already pretty messy before you showed up.
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There is like 3 Paradox Pokemon there were Ubers at one point at least. And 2 of them are Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle. Yeah I don’t think anything is really broken with Booster Energy.
 
Magcargo said:
Focus Energy Archaludon is a funny set. Bypasses Draco Meteor Stat drops and completely nukes common switch-ins like Gliscor, Volcarona, Toxapex, and Gking. Sadly been on a losing streak running it since it trades net neutrally in most cases.

Idk how yall feel, but defensive Gliscor doesn't feel like that guy anymore. Too many teams are running things that give it trouble, whether it be Axel Meow, Ice Beam Deo-S, darkrai, balloon steels, hatterene, etc. I feel there are several situations its preferable to run Lando-T due to helmet chip + Intimidate. Swords Dance is still an amazing set though
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Couldn't agree more. Gliscor feels very in-the-pits right now because of all the additional counterplay we received DLC2. Par for the course we still have a lot of broken and / or unhealthy mons like DeoS, Kyurem, Roaring Moon, Serperior, and Volcarona; potentially Darkrai, Enamorus, and Iron Boulder. Obviously Meowscarada and Weavile retained popularity because of Triple Axel, and the obligatory Dragapult never did it any favors. Water-types such as Greninja, Walking Wake, Samurott-Hisui, Waterpon, and Manaphy have also been relatively consistent. Steel-types such as Skarmory and Air Ballon Gholdengo or Heatran have become increasingly popular. The combination of broken and / or unhealthy additions to the metagame and new tools of the Indigo Disk really put a damper on this guy. If the trends are consistent as we clean up the metagame, I think Gliscor will be a healthy longstanding member of OU for remainder of Gen9.
 
ianlazerbeem said:
Thing is, Gliscor has a 90% toxic chance, and also spikes and knock off, it seems a lot better to run a Pokémon with few exploitable weaknesses and near infinite bulk than one with no useful resistances and very little overall utility
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I agree theres other defensive staples that'll do way better ( ting lu and a bunch of other guys will probably bully it ). It still has parting shot for utility (thats about it tho lol)
 
Dengo being broken doesn't make sense. It's typing is worse than ever rn, with 7+ Dark-types that are arguably A rank or higher in the current meta, multiple strong grounds like Ting-Lu and Tusk, and two extremely strong setup sweepers in Gouging Fire and Volcarona all giving it trouble. This on top of most of the threats it's suppose to check like Zama, Latios, kyurem, etc all packing dangerous coverage for it, or in Latios's case, smoking it with Luster Purge drop -> Draco after a bit of chip I've been forgoing running Dengo on most of my teams because other options feel like they have wider reaching and more consistent metagame coverage.
 
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Magcargo said:
Dengo being broken doesn't make sense. It's typing is worse than ever rn, with 7+ Dark-types that are arguably A rank or higher in the current meta, multiple strong grounds like Ting-Lu and Tusk, and two extremely strong setup sweepers in Gouging Fire and Volcarona all giving it trouble. This on top of most of the threats it's suppose to check like Zama, Latinos, kyurem, etc all packing dangerous coverage for it, or in Latios's case, smoking it with Luster Purge drop -> Draco after a bit of chip I've been forgoing running Dengo on most of my teams because other options feel like they have wider reaching and more consistent metagame coverage.
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i mean you kind of open yourself up to this by having it as your profile pic
 
Magcargo said:
Dengo being broken doesn't make sense. It's typing is worse than ever rn, with 7+ Dark-types that are arguably A rank or higher in the current meta, multiple strong grounds like Ting-Lu and Tusk, and two extremely strong setup sweepers in Gouging Fire and Volcarona all giving it trouble. This on top of most of the threats it's suppose to check like Zama, Latinos, kyurem, etc all packing dangerous coverage for it, or in Latios's case, smoking it with Luster Purge drop -> Draco after a bit of chip I've been forgoing running Dengo on most of my teams because other options feel like they have wider reaching and more consistent metagame coverage.
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Dengo by itself isn't really broken but it's Ability and the stranglehold effect is has on the hazard removal meta does. Even though we have more tools to deal with Dengo now his presence still prevents defog being run on teams for fear of being a wasted slot due to the evil cheese man. Thus the cheese man still needs to go.
 
I've come around to Good as Gold being less the problem, and more our lack of removal. Good as Gold is obviously a very, very strong ability, but without Joe in the tier, who shows up to defog? Corv will rise, but more fringe picks like Mandibuzz I've seen run it anyway, and Pokemon like Scizor aren't too bad to fit on a team either, especially post Indigo Disk. Spin, as always, can be blocked through other ghosts, such as Dragapult, and mortal spin is limited to a Pokemon which is funnelled into a specific team style and as a suicide lead more often than not.
 
Just me being able to click Rapid Spin more often will do wonders. It's the combination if factors that makes Gholdengo such a problem.

I really come to appreciate H-Goodra. With all the talk on Acheludon, I thought he might displace him, but AV Goo is such an excellent glue mon in this meta. Serp is rendered near powerless, it can tangle with the dragons, even G.Flame in a pinch. I don't see why it's UU, but at least they get to play with it more.
 
People keep saying Gholdengo keeps the metagame from removing hazards, when it's really more that hazard removal is terrible this gen.
If Gholdengo was overcentralizing with hazards, you'd think that Corviknight would be lower tiers while Talonflame or Hawlucha or even Weezing-G being the main defoggers. Or main Rapid Spinner being Iron Treads which resists Make It Rain and has better special bulk than Great Tusk (though Excadrill now exists which is a middle ground for the two). We'd also see people using Maushold or other Tidy Up Pokemon specifically because they are the other means of removing hazards in front of Gholdegno.
If Gholdengo was really the problematic it would have the entire hazards metagame form around it, yet it doesn't.
 
Gohankuten said:
Dengo by itself isn't really broken but it's Ability and the stranglehold effect is has on the hazard removal meta does. Even though we have more tools to deal with Dengo now his presence still prevents defog being run on teams for fear of being a wasted slot due to the evil cheese man. Thus the cheese man still needs to go.
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I’m sorry. What’s Defog? Haven’t seen it.
 
Speaking of
Talonflame @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Steel/Fairy/Water
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Temper Flare
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog
- Roost
Here is an update defensive utility set for Talonflame
It has enough speed to outspeed Adamant Roaring Moon without boosts and can burn it with Will-o-wisp. It also can use Defog and threaten Gholdengo with Temper Flare in return, which doubles in power when Defog fails. This can OHKO Gholdengo 30% of the time from full health, which just means it’s an OHKO majority of the time thanks to Hazards.
0 Atk Talonflame Temper Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (90.1 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Talonflame Temper Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (90.1 - 106.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is also a pretty decent answer to Kingambit as well so long as it isn’t Tera Fire.
 
The metagame right now is very playable and it has grown more competitive as things have begun to settle and teambuilding roles have become more apparent to our players. I remember day 1 when very respectable players called for immediate quickbans on Raging Bolt or Iron Boulder so many times that I had to turn off discord tags for a little bit; we have come a long way from this point.

I still think some work needs to be done (and there may be new work to be done after we get through that, for example) and we will address that in the immediate future with a survey, potential action following, etc. The survey will include a question specifically on a lot of Pokemon, the Kokoloko method prospects, and so on.

I do think threat saturation can be seen as a real problem, but I also think banning just to remove things is shortsighted. I think we need to take a step back from that type of mindset about forcing action and instead try to find the roots of our problems with the metagame. There's also unique perspectives like NJNP's from his new thread about flipping the onus with the Kokoloko method or mimikyu's from earlier on about showing greater restraint and so on. Personally I am somewhere more in the middle about carrying on our process in the way the community feels best, but right now is all about keeping an open mind.

Specifically on the Kokoloko method: I am not a huge fan right now as just banning a handful of problematic things may not rid the metagame of any unbalance when new things could pop up. Suddenly it is combining retesting thing we essentially promised to retest, which may not even be broken in the first place, with those things. I think this method is best used on day 1 with a larger infusion of broken Pokemon, especially when things approach unplayable, or when a tier is so far behind the ball that it would require longer than reasonable to hit a point where quickbans are no longer needed and we can pivot to suspects, which is not now as there is not close to unanimous support to quickban anything as things stand.

For me, Deoxys-Speed and Kyurem are two pressure points in the tier that I have been eyeing. I do not find the standard lead Deoxys sets to be problematic as much as attacking ones and maybe even some word for screens. Kyurem has a more interesting set mix discussion, but I find its strain on the builder more worrisome than most other presences.

I do not find other hot topics like Iron Boulder, Darkrai, or Enamorus to be problematic. Iron Boulder is very weak to priority, struggles to find a ton of free turns against offense, is easy to defensively Tera against, and does not break through balance well even after a boost while just using common Pokemon; to me, it is an example of something that is very good and practical, but not broken. Darkrai is a perfectly viable Pokemon with Hypnosis variants being cheese and some NP defensive Tera options being able to nab timely kills, but nothing overbearing and not even top tier to me. Enamorus is cool with Stellar and in general, but it is by no means able to circumvent normal counterplay to an unreasonable degree, especially not without exhausting Tera that opens up for other counterplay options to it or a defensive Tera to negate it.

You can make a fair argument about Roaring Moon and Volcarona being problematic sweepers for the same reason as prior metagames, but I do think their threat level has went down marginally. They still have my eye though (and yes, I hear you loudly...and sometimes clearly...to the Gholdengo crowd).
 
Magcargo said:
Dengo being broken doesn't make sense. It's typing is worse than ever rn, with 7+ Dark-types that are arguably A rank or higher in the current meta, multiple strong grounds like Ting-Lu and Tusk, and two extremely strong setup sweepers in Gouging Fire and Volcarona all giving it trouble. This on top of most of the threats it's suppose to check like Zama, Latinos, kyurem, etc all packing dangerous coverage for it, or in Latios's case, smoking it with Luster Purge drop -> Draco after a bit of chip I've been forgoing running Dengo on most of my teams because other options feel like they have wider reaching and more consistent metagame coverage.
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Think about it, a Pokémon that is weak to Dark and Ground, with 7+ Dark types in A rank or above AND is also weak to some of the scariest and most dangerous setup sweepers (Gouging Fire, Volc, Roaring Moon, SD Kingambit etc...) AND Tusk is #1, is STILL an incredible pick that warps the ENTIRE metagame around itself and shapes the way we have played and still play to this day the current generation OU, DESPITE its supposed losing MUs against 80% of the top viability mons. Doesn't that speak volumes to the strength of Ghold and its weight on the metagame?
 
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