Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[peepeepoopoo722]

HUH?
+3 252 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 217-256 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV Arch calcs

252+ Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 344-408 (92.7 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO: Roll to kill with no boosts
+2 252+ Atk Punching Glove Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Stamina Archaludon on a critical hit: 130-156 (35 - 42%) -- approx. 3HKO
It switches in, takes 35%.
+2 252+ Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. +3 200 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 276-326 (74.3 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
WOW, IT KOs EVEN WITH ARCH AT +3

In rain with max defence

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Stamina Archaludon in Rain on a critical hit: 220-260 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oh my bad it doesn't OHKO. Still think you're using some unfavorable calcs below. I don't know what set is standard on arch by now but surely im not the only one using impish and instead relying on body press rathan than special attacks- and dragon tailing away anything that can take body press well to add up hazard damage? Because with zero defense ran I'm thinking you would be using like.. electro shot instead? On the same token wouldn't people run jolly urshifu in this meta?

The way you're laying out the calcs, the even at +3 one, means you what- hit surgical strikes, take the body press, 70 - 82.6% with impish, while you swords dance, and then a max/max arch at +3 takes from +2 Close Combat 48.9 - 58.3% losing to the next body press.

Archadludon isn't a counter- but it does make urshifu a little hesitant to use its signature move. It's not going to be able to just click swords dance and destroy in this game not with serp thunderclap grassy glide etc.

 

[P3DS]

Very interesting seeing the survey results. I think the overall view is that there is no clear consensus on where the format wants to go from here. Moon had the highest overall, but it does look like Ghold is a really polarising Mon. People like it's defensive profile, while others despise it for its hazard meta warping. Probs needs another month or so before viewpoints align on what to look at. People are still cooking it seems.

On the Annihilape topic, Mon should stay banned. It's less that it has more checks, it's more it completely invalidates a lot of the slower and bulkier play styles. When this thing was around, I was playing specs tera fire Chi-Yu to check it on my fat team. And, yeah, we have options, but with it able to avoid sleep, or have defiant to make Defog a rough option, yeah, should remain banned. Even without tera, it has the strength to warp the format.

On tera, still don't think it needs action now. There's way more factors going on, so probs needs to cool. Easter tiering action maybe?

 

[YubelVT]

Archaludon makes urshifu afraid to use its signature move, which turns body press into a 1hko. Close combat is strong but we have a million SD + cc users. Thunder clap, dragonite, grassy glide. In general urshifu is the most likely to be ok in OU.

+2 Close Combat ohkos archalduon lmao
Assuming the lowest possible damage from a +2 tera water surging strikes in rain (which is 176), you're either popping tera immediately to not instantly die to the follow up close combat, or you're dying regardless because we both forgot that surging strikes always crits

+2 252+ Atk Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. +3 200 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 276-326 (74.3 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ Atk Punching Glove Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Stamina Archaludon on a critical hit: 176-209 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i do think urshifu-r got a lot of new offensive answers to it in this dlc. thunderclap forces it to play mindgames with raging bolt—even if it tries to click aqua jet to eliminate the 50/50, bolt can predict that, eat the aqua jet, and click another electric move instead. serperior also gives serious trouble to it, as do deo-s (if it's not set up) and the latis (who aren't ou but they're still solid mons). also, we still have old stuff that outspeeds and kills and doesn't fear aqua jet, like waterpon, grassy glide rillaboom, and sometimes walking wake

the problem is the lack of defensive answers. archaludon is only a real answer if you switch it in on +0 surging strikes. burning bulwark can't do anything because of unseen fist; even if urshifu-r is running punching glove, which makes bulwark block surging strikes, it still won't get burned, so all you're doing is prolonging the inevitable. even static/flame body, the universal "bring this in and pray" pseudo-answers to every physical setup sweeper, can't do anything because of the fucking punching glove. the only things that reliably beat it defensively are dondozo and water absorb clodsire. this is the reason that i don't want it back, although it's still got a better claim on it than just about any other uber

annihilape should stay banned no matter what happens to tera. removing the mechanic doesn't make the 150-power ghost stab any less bullshit and then you couldn't even tera normal to avoid it

 

[YubelVT]

i do think urshifu-r got a lot of new offensive answers to it in this dlc. thunderclap forces it to play mindgames with raging bolt—even if it tries to click aqua jet to eliminate the 50/50, bolt can predict that, eat the aqua jet, and click another electric move instead. serperior also gives serious trouble to it, as do deo-s and the latis (who aren't ou but they're still solid mons). also, we still have old stuff that outspeeds and kills and doesn't fear aqua jet, like waterpon, grassy glide rillaboom, and sometimes walking wake

the problem is the lack of defensive answers. archaludon is only a real answer if you switch it in on +0 surging strikes. burning bulwark can't do anything because of unseen fist; even if urshifu-r is running punching glove, which makes bulwark block surging strikes, it still won't get burned, so all you're doing is prolonging the inevitable. even static/flame body, the universal "bring this in and pray" pseudo-answers to every physical setup sweeper, can't do anything because of the fucking punching glove. the only things that reliably beat it defensively are dondozo and water absorb clodsire. this is the reason that i don't want it back, although it's still got a better claim on it than just about any other uber

annihilape should stay banned no matter what happens to tera

You forgot! Dondozo! The answer to literally every physical attacking threat in pokemon history is Donbozo! Because he's stupid and dumb and an ASSHOLE

 

[Eeveeto]

You forgot! Dondozo! The answer to literally every physical attacking threat in pokemon history is Donbozo! Because he's stupid and dumb and an ASSHOLE

Based Mon. You only discriminate it for being fat

 

[Ctann]

A good point that was made was that the introduction of the new bulky dragons has dampened waterpon.

I wonder if it’s enough to bring back firepon.

generally speaking this meta is extremely pro-offense. Lots of Pokémon’s that can 2hko the majority of the meta.

even Zam-crowned doesn’t seem super ridiculous to introduce right now.

of course they could all be OP, but the meta is so overtuned it might be able to support them.

you don’t know until you try.

On the forbidden topic of annihilape

can someone please tell me what I’m missing with a simple bulky Tera fairy + thunder wave gholdengo set being able to counter it? Once it outspeeds, it can +2 plot or just spam hex without boosting. Pair with a helmet user like dondozo for damaging the pen without attacks if you think it’s going to use attacking moves. Really worried about chesto resto? You have knock off support with the improved knock off distribution

I might be naive here, but there seems to be a lot of resistance to something that allegedly single-handedly breaks stall, and we know stall always finds a way. We also know stall has more options than ever before.

Highv0ltag3 can you please shed some stall-wisdom on how you’d check annihilape, hypothetically

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

You forgot! Dondozo! The answer to literally every physical attacking threat in pokemon history is Donbozo! Because he's stupid and dumb and an ASSHOLE

my brother in christ i literally mentioned dondozo in the post. also, even though it's the objectively best answer to every physical attacker except for like three of them, dondozo is incredibly non-splashable and rarely fits outside of stall and semistall, which is why its usage is consistently towards the bottom of ou even though it's the best physical wall to ever exist

A good point that was made was that the introduction of the new bulky dragons has dampened waterpon.

heh, dampened. because she's a water-type

I wonder if it’s enough to bring back firepon.

when sun teams are better than they ever were in dlc1? not likely. remember, she also learns play rough, which makes the bulky dragons a lot less bulky. so she makes a great partner for the dinos because of their shared strength in sun, but also can lure and remove one of their biggest weaknesses (opposing dragons). doesn't sound very healthy to me

also, can we please just make a separate thread for the ubers topic so people stop derailing actual meta discussion with it? "just ignore it and it'll go away" is getting less and less true with every passing day. i'd do it myself but i don't want to step on any toes by making a thread without any sort of authorization

 

[NotDaProGamer]

Oh my bad it doesn't OHKO. Still think you're using some unfavorable calcs below. I don't know what set is standard on arch by now but surely im not the only one using impish and instead relying on body press rathan than special attacks- and dragon tailing away anything that can take body press well to add up hazard damage? Because with zero defense ran I'm thinking you would be using like.. electro shot instead? On the same token wouldn't people run jolly urshifu in this meta?

The way you're laying out the calcs, the even at +3 one, means you what- hit surgical strikes, take the body press, 70 - 82.6% with impish, while you swords dance, and then a max/max arch at +3 takes from +2 Close Combat 48.9 - 58.3% losing to the next body press.

Archadludon isn't a counter- but it does make urshifu a little hesitant to use its signature move. It's not going to be able to just click swords dance and destroy in this game not with serp thunderclap grassy glide etc.

Forgot to run impish sorry! I mean, CB still kills anyway... 252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Archaludon: 390-458 (101.5 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[YubelVT]

Based Mon. You only discriminate it for being fat

I'm fat. I actually discriminate it because it ruins my physical offense teams because I suck at team building >:(

my brother in christ i literally mentioned dondozo in the post. also, even though it's the objectively best answer to every physical attacker except for like three of them, dondozo is incredibly non-splashable and rarely fits outside of stall and semistall, which is why its usage is consistently towards the bottom of ou even though it's the best physical wall to ever exist

Sorry I'm illiterate. I think dondozo is maybe more splashable than people give it credit for but not by much

 

[Eeveeto]

I'm fat. I actually discriminate it because it ruins my physical offense teams because I suck at team building >:(

Should use Mold Breaker SD Drill then, with Air Balloon to wall the most common Gliscor and some Tera that would make facing Dozo easier.

 

[Psyces]

Hi all. Just started playing again after years (last time was during BW). Now that the metagame has mostly settled, I want to share my thoughts of it.

First things first: tera. At first I thought it was horrible and was against it. But you can only use it once per game (didn't know that), so it's not too bad. Yes, it can be very irritating and define the game, but what applies to your opponent also applies to you. Just take advantage of it.

Second: the mons. I find most of the top used mons overrated and easy to counter. Kingambit, Gholdengo, Roaring Moon, Gliscor and Darkrai have many counters and do not deserve a ban IMO. And Great Tusk, Gouging Fire and Serperior were very easy to counter. I don't get the fuss.

The mons that I do find powerful are Iron Boulder, Iron Valiant, Rillaboom, Dragonite and Ogerporn-W offensively, and Hatterne, Archaludon, Skarmory, Clefable, Corviknight and Primarina defensively. These mons require right teambuilding and prediction.

Last: stall. Incredibly overrated, and again do not get the fuss. Heavy-Duty Boots are a life savior. Never had a problem with stall thanks to it.

Overall, I think the current metagame is mostly balanced and very fun. I have some ideas that would improve the game, but I'll keep those to myself until I've played and experienced more.

Here's my current team that I have a lot fun and wins with:

 

[EpicGuy321]

If Shifu gets unbanned, it's over for OU

252 Atk Tera Electric Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Raging Bolt: 424-499 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[NotDaProGamer]

Hi all. Just started playing again after years (last time was during BW). Now that the metagame has mostly settled, I want to share my thoughts of it.

First things first: tera. At first I thought it was horrible and was against it. But you can only use it once per game (didn't know that), so it's not too bad. Yes, it can be very irritating and define the game, but what applies to your opponent also applies to you. Just take advantage of it.

Second: the mons. I find most of the top used mons overrated and easy to counter. Kingambit, Gholdengo, Roaring Moon, Gliscor and Darkrai have many counters and do not deserve a ban IMO. And Great Tusk, Gouging Fire and Serperior were very easy to counter. I don't get the fuss.

The mons that I do find powerful are Iron Boulder, Iron Valiant, Rillaboom, Dragonite and Ogerporn-W offensively, and Hatterne, Archaludon, Skarmory, Clefable, Corviknight and Primarina defensively. These mons require right teambuilding and prediction.

Last: stall. Incredibly overrated, and again do not get the fuss. Heavy-Duty Boots are a life savior. Never had a problem with stall thanks to it.

Overall, I think the current metagame is mostly balanced and very fun. I have some ideas that would improve the game, but I'll keep those to myself until I've played and experienced more.

Here's my current team that I have a lot fun and wins with:

How do you deal with getting that +1 speed each game? It is pretty easy to work around normally, but when I build a team with webs I get smacked. And smacked. And smacked, while to me it looks like and are the only ones that can stop Serp, and unless you run fire punch you probably lose.
Also, what is the for? I'm looking at your 'problem defensive mon list' and it can beat Arch and maybe Hatt/Clef (I haven't run calcs yet). Do you just run it as a spinner, and if so what stops you from using ? Is Sturdy really that strong?
Again, one of the things I notice is half of your problem list happens to naturally be good against (with it only beating Arch and maybe Skarm and/or Corv with Fire Punch). Also, are you using special or physical Valiant? Just curious.
(Also you spelt Ogerpon wrong)

 

[Srn]

Ok folks stop talking about ubers dropping. Finch already asked yall to stop talking about annihilape and espathra, and finch is nicer than me.
We have enough ubers in this tier to talk about anyway.

Is it just me or is archaludon under rain pretty goddamn busted? I feel like this mon's bulk, electro shot, and stamina+body press combined with tera can so easily get out of control. Take a look at this game that was for OU championship and this game that was for OUPL week 6. Especially that latter game, crazy how the standard HO just folded like a house of cards. I'm askin yall to look at your teams and tell me what your answer is to an AV archaludon under rain that could tera fairy or flying.

 

[Eeveeto]

If Shifu gets unbanned, it's over for OU

252 Atk Tera Electric Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Bro, it has Thunder Punch to not only not depend on Tera, but also to abuse Punching Glove.

I already hated Watershifu's presence in SS OU, for me he can rot eternally in Ubers.

 

[StompyStomps]

imo, let the Kung Fu pandas moon bears rot in Ubers

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I'm askin yall to look at your teams and tell me what your answer is to an AV archaludon under rain that could tera fairy or flying.

switching in my torkoal

 

[Psyces]

How do you deal with getting that +1 speed each game? It is pretty easy to work around normally, but when I build a team with webs I get smacked. And smacked. And smacked, while to me it looks like and are the only ones that can stop Serp, and unless you run fire punch you probably lose.
Also, what is the for? I'm looking at your 'problem defensive mon list' and it can beat Arch and maybe Hatt/Clef (I haven't run calcs yet). Do you just run it as a spinner, and if so what stops you from using ? Is Sturdy really that strong?
Again, one of the things I notice is half of your problem list happens to naturally be good against (with it only beating Arch and maybe Skarm and/or Corv with Fire Punch). Also, are you using special or physical Valiant? Just curious.
(Also you spelt Ogerpon wrong)

Dragonite's Extreme Speed
Donphan's Sturdy (with Heavy-Duty Boots) + Ice Shard
Dondozo's max SpD + Assault Vest can take one Leaf Storm and hit back with Avalanche

My Donphan is a physical tank with max HP and Att + heavy-duty boots. Earthquake hits hard. Knock off annoys ghost types that resist rapid spin. Survive one round thanks to sturdy, and finish with ice shard. The sturdy + ice shard combo has been successful enough to stop me from using Great Tusk instead.

 

[GravitysGone]

Has anyone been having success with Venu on Sun? I’ve been using it with Dino Suicune and Entei as a FWG core but I’ve found it hard to switch in on much. Thinking about swapping for the third Dino

 

[fightnugget]

I'm askin yall to look at your teams and tell me what your answer is to an AV archaludon under rain that could tera fairy or flying.

I usually lead Adamant SD Sash chomp (252 atk 4 Def 252 spe eq/outrage/sd/spikes) into rain. I also run SD excadrill and a couple special attackers (enamo and 1 of any of Specs Kyurem, walking Wake, latios, or keldeo.) I do consciously make the effort to position well ahead of Archaludon if I can.

 

[658Greninja]

Is it just me or is archaludon under rain pretty goddamn busted? I feel like this mon's bulk, electro shot, and stamina+body press combined with tera can so easily get out of control. Take a look at this game that was for OU championship and this game that was for OUPL week 6. Especially that latter game, crazy how the standard HO just folded like a house of cards. I'm askin yall to look at your teams and tell me what your answer is to an AV archaludon under rain that could tera fairy or flying.

Unaware Clod and SpD Skeledirge may serve as solid checks on Balance. Archaludon also has the tendency to get worn down quickly throughout a game via hazards, so get up hazards as quickly as possible. You could also minimize the turns of weather Chilly Reception via Gking, and slowly win the weather war vs Pelipper. Ting-Lu is fat enough to eat even a boosted Body Press and Whirlwind it away or chip it with Ruination.

 

[Return to Zero]

Guys, if you want to play Ubers, just go play Ubers. Your favorite broken stuff like Annihilape aren't all sealed away in another dimension eternally. It's playable in that format. Go there. They don't need to be here. Annihilape's even pretty alright in Ubers, you know?

I'm askin yall to look at your teams and tell me what your answer is to an AV archaludon under rain that could tera fairy or flying.

Archaludon under rain is really, really good, but racking up Stamina boosts with the AV set is kinda tricky since you aren't going for max Defense and you're Fighting and Ground weak, so that first hit has to be a resist or something to get started safely. You are a very easy switch-in for Great Tusk since it can come in on a predicted Electro Shot and force your Tera. Ting-Lu also has a really good matchup since it's immune to Electro Shot and none of Arch's moves are better than a 3HKO on it.

Really, the best thing you can do against AV Arch is to prevent it from coming in how it wants to. Like, in the championship game you linked, you can see how much effort is being put into making sure that rain doesn't stay up for long, even if it ultimately doesn't work out in the end. We have a lot of options for setting weather between Pelipper, Torkoal, G-Slowking, and A-Ninetales, so that's one way to do it.

 

[awyp]

Ok folks stop talking about ubers dropping. Finch already asked yall to stop talking about annihilape and espathra, and finch is nicer than me.
We have enough ubers in this tier to talk about anyway.

Is it just me or is archaludon under rain pretty goddamn busted? I feel like this mon's bulk, electro shot, and stamina+body press combined with tera can so easily get out of control. Take a look at this game that was for OU championship and this game that was for OUPL week 6. Especially that latter game, crazy how the standard HO just folded like a house of cards. I'm askin yall to look at your teams and tell me what your answer is to an AV archaludon under rain that could tera fairy or flying.

Okay so I started playing the DLC2 meta just recently due to how I've been stuck with DLC1 meta for OUPL. So a couple of things and my opinions will definitely grow a bit more when I feel confident in the tier but what I will say is a few things I've noticed.

People are saying that this meta is balanced, I don't see it at all to be honest the DLC1 meta was much more balanced and that in itself was a shitshow survey wise averaging around a 6/10. There's no way that what we currently have right now with essentially the turtle being banned shows its much better. We still need a lot of work on this tier and everyone is just suffering from new toy syndrome but maybe in a month people will be more inclined to just say something shouldn't be in the tier.

I think there's more broken things then what I'm about to list but I'm not going to talk about it until I'm more confident in my thoughts.

- This thing is easily an OU staple like it's actually incredibly good under rain, its ability as well is what I think puts it over the top under rain. You can run Assault Vest and power up your stats 2 different ways by being hit with anything or by using Electroshot. Do I think this needs to be banned, no but do I think it showed by on the radar absolutely.

- Yeah if there was something that needs to get thrown out its this mon it's the same argument I had before with it Knock Off + Proto Boost Attack + Dragon Dance is just too easy with the option to tera out. This is the only mon objectively I think that needs to get banned I don't mind doing another suspect.

Iron Boulder I think also needs to be suspected down the line, it's way too fast and bulky as well where you can take out its BAD type and replace it with a decent one and just continue to swords dance or even setup behind a substitute if you ever so choose to.

told yall

 

[Cuddly]

Has anyone been having success with Venu on Sun? doesnt have alot of switch ins i think its pretty decent tbh

Most people are using the new Paradox Pokemon and Roaring Moon on Sun. I’m sure it’ll see more use once people settle down with the new toys.