Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

i also think people are really underselling stuff like roar, yawn, and encore on skeledirge as anti-setup options. yes, wisp is really good on it, but it can do plenty of utility stuff outside of that. hell, alluring voice can work as a niche option if you're going for tera fairy—fire/ghost/fairy is fantastic coverage, and confusing setup sweepers if they try to set up is neat. like, this mon has so much stuff it can do against setup specifically, it's almost unreal, and we haven't even fully explored all of the options it has. try skeledirge, guys!
 
YubelVT said:
Are you insane? Roaring Moon has like 2 new answers (scarf meowscarada and weavile), neither of which fit on 100% of teams. Dondozo is super limited in what teams it fits on, Clodsire and Quagsire both suck ass, Scarf Deo-S is a fucking meme, and all scarfers except for deoxys-speed are outsped if you can get 2 ddances. Great tusk sort of walls but gets owned by spikes and fails to wall completely post tera. Roaring Moon needs to go.
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Are we supposed to always be able to bring an answer to everything? The meta is massive atp, with threats galore. Can't fit an answer to everything on one team, and thats fine. Just because its answers arent universally applicable doesnt mean somethings gotta go. Kingambit, Kyurem, hell even Volcarona and Zamazenta all apply to that as well.
 
KamenOH said:
Are we supposed to always be able to bring an answer to everything? The meta is massive atp, with threats galore. Can't fit an answer to everything on one team, and thats fine. Just because its answers arent universally applicable doesnt mean somethings gotta go. Kingambit, Kyurem, hell even Volcarona and Zamazenta all apply to that as well.
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Not everything, no. But IMO also should not have to chalk so many things up to matchup. Or think, if they were Tera type X instead of Tera type Y, this match goes completely differently. Lot of the mons in question have divergent checks / counterplay. Why is that preferable to a metagame where there is less volatility?
 
Smashburn said:
Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Heatran, Rockpon, Waterpon, Dragonite, etc. all good ways of controlling it. Roaring Moon, Walking Wake, Rillaboom, Serprior, Ting Lu, and Clefable, Clodsire, Dondozo, and Skeledrige are are fairly conditional based on the tera-type.
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RaikouLover said:
Not a problem or anything…
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I think it's kind of rude to dismiss this reply because of the Conditional/Unaware answers your team styles don't employ, especially because the first 6 answers which DON'T specify being conditional to Tera Type (Admittedly I think some of which could go into the "based on Tera" category like Heatran) are also mons that seem more than capable of fitting onto the Offensive Playstyles the Fat/Unaware Pokemon would not slot into (as easily). The fact that they ended the first listing with a descriptor before listing the next 9 Pokemon clearly indicates the second listing's description is not meant to apply to that first set despite your highlighting "conditional based on the Tera-Type" giving the impression your dismissive one-line "Not a problem or anything..." response encompasses everything you were addressing before moving to the next quote portion about Kingambit.

This and the repetition of complaining about Tera across multiple posts, without engaging with responses beyond dismissal, comes across as wanting to complain or stir things more than produce a discussion. A post provided you more than a dozen Pokemon that check the Pokemon you were concerned with, none of which are Niche in OU (style-preference maybe, but they do far more than respond to Volcarona alone). You proceeded to not address half the answers, dismiss the others as "dogshit" or too specific, and proceed to simply affirm that you were correct about Volcarona being an unhealthy Mon (something the tier at large very clearly does not agree with at the moment based on Survey results). I could see how Smashburn "basically outlined why Volcarona is problematic" if you literally ignore half of the things his response tried to bring up.

DaddyBuzzwole said:
i also think people are really underselling stuff like roar, yawn, and encore on skeledirge as anti-setup options. yes, wisp is really good on it, but it can do plenty of utility stuff outside of that. hell, alluring voice can work as a niche option if you're going for tera fairy—fire/ghost/fairy is fantastic coverage, and confusing setup sweepers if they try to set up is neat. like, this mon has so much stuff it can do against setup specifically, it's almost unreal, and we haven't even fully explored all of the options it has. try skeledirge, guys!
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My problem with Alluring Voice is that it feels counter-intuitive on Skeledirge considering how many options he's juggling (not 4MSS but stiff competition for the slot). Fairy Coverage is good for a harder hit on certain potential switches like Great Tusk, Dragonite, or Substitute users, especially with Tera Fairy, but that's more for what the move is than what it does. Logically, how many Pokemon are going to set-up in front of an Unaware User, much less one with the Snowball potential of Torch Song that Dirge has to ensure it always gains SOMETHING from a free turn (vs Dondozo or Clod just kind of sitting there)? Other options you mentioned like Roar, Yawn, and Encore also seem more useful to it since they synergize with Unaware stopping set-up by costing the Boosts or making the Sweeper exploitable themselves.

Roar especially has my interest since OU has a lot of Sweepers that probably won't get more than one chance to go at things thanks to either Booster energy or simply their longevity only permitting a few chances that are hard to grab (Volc REALLY has to capitalize on Tera surprise because it's dead if it takes a Knock Off anywhere, Moon wants to sweep while its BE is active), while also giving Dirge a way to soft-check Sweepers it can take 1-2 turns max against like DD Kyurem, Enamorus (Un-tera'd to avoid a SE Stellar Blast hit, so EP is 42-50%), Ground Serperior (also goes around the Sub) sooner than Torch Song, Nasty Plot Darkrai, Gouging Fire with Tera Ground EQ, Substitute Iron Boulder (so no burns but can get rid of its vital Booster Speed, survives Mighty Cleave even without Tera) just to go over some
 
pika pal said:
Logically, how many Pokemon are going to set-up in front of an Unaware User, much less one with the Snowball potential of Torch Song that Dirge has to ensure it always gains SOMETHING from a free turn (vs Dondozo or Clod just kind of sitting there)? Other options you mentioned like Roar, Yawn, and Encore also seem more useful to it since they synergize with Unaware stopping set-up by costing the Boosts or making the Sweeper exploitable themselves.
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fair enough, it really only works as anti-setup at either extremely low ladder or the kind of match where both people are like 5 moves deep inside each other's heads and they're just clicking the most bonkers options every time. the other three things i mentioned are way better for sets specifically tailored to stopping setup. but i do think that alluring voice does have a place on dirge as a good coverage option on 3 attacks + slack sets because fire/ghost/fairy is resisted by exactly one fully evolved mon that isn't even close to pretending to be relevant. that specific coverage combo is part of what made flutter mane as busted as it is, so i figure it's got a place on something else
 
KamenOH said:
Are we supposed to always be able to bring an answer to everything? The meta is massive atp, with threats galore. Can't fit an answer to everything on one team, and thats fine. Just because its answers arent universally applicable doesnt mean somethings gotta go. Kingambit, Kyurem, hell even Volcarona and Zamazenta all apply to that as well.
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In general terms yes. Every team is expected to have answers to bulky cores. Every team is expected to have some form of beating set up sweepers. Every team is expected to have answers to fast hard hitting Pokemon.
You break bulky cores numerous amount of ways such as wallbreakers, future sight spam, moves like Knock Off and Toxic. You can prevent set up sweepers and stop their sweeps with fast or bulky Pokemon that threaten them with things like status or KOing them.

Roaring Moon in this case is very limited in what answers it. It requires more specific stuff than other Dragon Dance sweepers in the tier and those options may not be great on their own.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
fair enough, it really only works as anti-setup at either extremely low ladder or the kind of match where both people are like 5 moves deep inside each other's heads and they're just clicking the most bonkers options every time. the other three things i mentioned are way better for sets specifically tailored to stopping setup. but i do think that alluring voice does have a place on dirge as a good coverage option on 3 attacks + slack sets because fire/ghost/fairy is resisted by exactly one fully evolved mon that isn't even close to pretending to be relevant. that specific coverage combo is part of what made flutter mane as busted as it is, so i figure it's got a place on something else
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u chatting about mimikyu? it counters iron boulder! (in a vacuum called victim of the week)

NotDaProGamer said:
:sv/Mimikyu:
So this is a Counter.
Pikaclone (Mimikyu) @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak

Step 1: Switch in and either tank a move and burn Disguise, or watch them SD and keep your Disguise.
Step 2: You are slower, so you either get hit with a second Mighty Cleave which never kills:
252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mimikyu: 177-208 (70.5 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or you are hit with a +2 attack, but disguise tanks it.
Step 3: Tera Fairy and Play Rough. Tera Fighting play from Boulder obviously is an OHKO, so without tera...
252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Fairy Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Boulder: 263-309 (81.9 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
At lowest damage, Boulder is left with 18%.
Step 4: Shadow Sneak. Now, even upon teraing out of the weakness to Shadow Sneak, Mimi picks up the KO.
252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fighting Iron Boulder: 87-105 (27.1 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
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YubelVT said:
tbcf about clef I'm pretty sure unaware clef is like exclusive to hard stall or is a build around for shitty crit-me-not sets that I hate. Skeledirge is definitely the most splashable of the unaware users, you could also play quagsire and lose to tera grass volcarona :3
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I've used in the past unaware clef with HDB and calm mind. It can throw off people as they start boosting their mons to try to destroy it, only to be met with minimal damage. I haven't used it recently, so I don't know if it is great now, but clef can be a dangerous threat in the right hands.
 
Heatranator said:
I've used in the past unaware clef with HDB and calm mind. It can throw off people as they start boosting their mons to try to destroy it, only to be met with minimal damage. I haven't used it recently, so I don't know if it is great now, but clef can be a dangerous threat in the right hands.
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YOU
1704742958522.png


KamenOH said:
Are we supposed to always be able to bring an answer to everything? The meta is massive atp, with threats galore. Can't fit an answer to everything on one team, and thats fine. Just because its answers arent universally applicable doesnt mean somethings gotta go. Kingambit, Kyurem, hell even Volcarona and Zamazenta all apply to that as well.
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Volcarona needs a suspect, Zamazenta is completely fine, Kyurem and Kingambit NEED TO GO. The meta is massive but that's not an excuse to leave egregious things in the tier. Need I remind you about sneasler?
 
RaikouLover said:
Not a problem or anything…
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It is not a problem because there are very few viable Tera types in this day and age, ground is by far the best with dragon and fairy being like fine

RaikouLover said:
Kingambit is not beating morning sun versions of Volcarona.
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This is a good thing.

RaikouLover said:
So if I don’t want to run dogshit Clodsire, Dondozo, Skeleridge, or Clefable (magic guard is better) I have a problem?
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I mean, you know it's going to QD, no? We have several grounds in the tier, options to poison or paralyze it, and you mentioned Morning Sun earlier but this essentially requires Tera Blast as the coverage move on the set giving it a lot less options and the team as a whole less flexibility, if you don't let it keep dancing it can be disposed of by tusk, Lu, etc

RaikouLover said:
You’ve basically outlined why Volcarona is problematic. It’s a quick L if your team comp does not check that particular Tera type. Every non-unaware Pokémon you listed loses to some form of Volcarona.
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But there are very few realistic forms of Volcarona due to the climate of the tier. This isn't home where you can run Grass Flying or whatever you want, Pokémon like Heatran Skeledirge and Packing Heat shove it into boxes that make it much easier to prepare for. Most sweepers will beat you if your team does not possess counterplay for them.

If Volcarona were banned, you would say the exact same thing about Kingambit and Gholdengo. Volcarona prevents this. Keep it in the tier.
 
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NotDaProGamer said:
it is so hard to keep a straight face rn i just got swept by the same team 3 times, versus 3 different of my teams, cause I have a skill issue. opponent read me like a book (like read EVERY turn) :( daily moan of how bad I am.
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Here here. I have gone from 1500s to 1200s because of my skill issues and the fact that my opponents have some competency. I have only recently struggled to get my way back to 1300s. The pain of grinding Elo.
 
NotDaProGamer said:
it is so hard to keep a straight face rn i just got swept by the same team (this team https://pokepast.es/033ab73b3f676216) 3 times, versus 3 different of my teams, cause I have a skill issue. opponent read me like a book (like read EVERY turn) :( daily moan of how bad I am.
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This is why I use skill-less teams where I just send out Ting-Lu and don't make any predictions
 
sire clod said:
If you make a team that can't handle Gambit, that's on you atp tbh
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It's more so that handling gambit takes many checks and once again, it can just tera and destroy those counters. It's not as bs as it was before, but there is a reason why it is number 2 in usage, it is still really good and threatening. You can definetely handle gambit easier now, but the same problems with it before are now only a bit less extreme. It is banworthy, but just not more than other threats like moon or kyurem.
 
Handling every Gambit requires at least two teamslots and even then it can flip a ton of matchups with Tera. In fact, in practice Tera tends to be how I beat Gambit in a pinch more often than not. It creates a ton of 50/50s and can honestly just be unfun to play both with and against sometimes. The fact that it's pretty much designed to be a late-game cleaner also complicates things. You can't reliably have your Gambit checks be at full by the time Gambit even comes out, unless you're willing to reserve that slot for the entire game until that point, in which case hopefully you didn't need it to check anything else on the opposing team.

I dunno, I love Kingambit and I think it's really cool on a sort of conceptual level as a Pokemon who gets way stronger in the late game, but I've sort of accepted the fact that it creates a ton of interactions that aren't really healthy or fun and should probably go at some point in time, although its absence will probably create other problems in the future.
 
sire clod said:
If you make a team that can't handle Gambit, that's on you atp tbh
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it's technically handleable, but the amount of work required to handle it in builder and the amount of unhealthy interactions it creates on the battlefield are both beyond what i consider reasonable for a mon. i consider gambit to still be firmly in the "unhealthy" category at minimum, although it's definitely less bullshit now than it has been before and there are plenty of other mons to consider instead of gunning for gambit right now
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
it's technically handleable, but the amount of work required to handle it in builder and the amount of unhealthy interactions it creates on the battlefield are both beyond what i consider reasonable for a mon. i consider gambit to still be firmly in the "unhealthy" category at minimum, although it's definitely less bullshit now than it has been before
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Me personally, I just bring 6 gambit weaks and then set up on gambit and never ever get the sucker read wrong. I have a phD in sucker punching actually
 
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