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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Even then, the Type Chart is a lot more delicate than even I myself thought. The most allowed is up to three changes, or else it’ll cause a domino effect to the point it became too distinct from what we’ve been used to.
18 types is also plentiful in the type chart as-is, so the new type must interact with types that could use a buff or to keep the top-tier types in check like Fairy did to Dragon and Fighting, otherwise they’ll be redundant at best.
18 types is also plentiful in the type chart as-is, so the new type must interact with types that could use a buff or to keep the top-tier types in check like Fairy did to Dragon and Fighting, otherwise they’ll be redundant at best.
very unpopular, but i wouldn't mind if they did big changes to the type table that would take time to get used to, as long as a) it improved the competitiveness and b) the decisions made sense with regards to flavour/lore. of course, a) is very hard to be sure of without extensive testing, so i get that this hasn't and won't ever be done, but i like the thought.
imo i would rather some of the better types get nerfed a bit than buffing the worse ones. it makes the game more interesting when types have clearly defined roles like how ice is great offensively and awful defensively. i like the idea of a type like water being good at offense and defense but in practice its like, one of the best defensive types while also being so good offensively that spamming water moves is a playstyle. it feels like a big failure in game design since the type is just kinda good at everything.
It was a bad idea. You don't have to commit to the bit for 30 years.
No it wasn’t. Back in RBY, Psychic only resisted itself and was only weak to Bug, which was only the pathetically weak Twineedle at 15 BP. It was more broken than Dragon in Gens 4 to 5. Dark and Steel existing also gave Fighting types more useful since Psychic’s dominance made them useless in Gen 1. Also worth noting that Dragon/Psychic were originally designed to be “boss” types, which is why they were intentionally designed to be better than the other types. It’s also the motive for why so many Legendary Pokémon ended with Psychic and Dragon types; GF have officially stated why Lugia was Psychic as opposed to water is because they wanted to create a stronger “impression”. Similar logic was applied to Latios/Latias as well: They were debating between Dragon/Flying or Dragon/Psychic but ultimately decided Dragon/Psychic for that stronger impression- levitate was given to make up for the fact that they weren’t flying types but were still “ flying “.
Twineedle was always power 25.
Pin Missile was 15 in gen 1 Twineedle was not.
Okay? None of this changes the fact that Dark Type alone is an extremely strong counter to Psychic. The real answer was to literally just know that you have three types that are super effective against Psychic. Dark Types, make Bug a real type, give Ghost types real moves. But then oh yeah, all three of them are resisted by Steel also.
Steel was never the solution to type balance it literally only made things worse lol. Psychic did not go from "busted -> good", it literally became hot garbo. Especially when it often just led to Pursuit trapping, or not having a secondary type that helps it out.
The Latis before Fairy Type rarely ran Psychic moves not just because other coverage was better, but because Psychic stab is bad. Not move wise (another weird claim from this thread), but because it is resisted by a lot. Latios especially was actually only really not banned because of its Psychic typing, frankly. Besides for resisting Sacred Sword from Keldeo, it only made Pursuit Tyranitar a looming threat in Gen 5 and any U-Turn on it is doing over half.
Game Freak not knowing what the type had become was not proof they made the right decision.
Actually it was 14 BP. And it only had 85% accuracy... Gen 1 move design can be bizarre at times.
Going by Gen 5 alone, it is resisted by Steel which is the same with Dragon making it a point towards coverage, Dark which is only really relevant for Tyranitar as Hydreigon is Dragon type and Weavile is an Ice type, and Psychic where Gen 5 OU has 9 properly in the tier and another 9 with some degree of viability. It does look from that that coverage is more likely than Psychic being too weak. Also it kinda weakens your argument a bit when one of the reasons you say a type is so weak is due to the fact a sizable portion of the tier has it.
Also there are three pure psychic types in Gen 5 OU, and you left out Espeon. Granted, I think that it's a Electrivire situation after they dealt with Baton Pass, but it's still there.
First of all, Tyranitar in Gens 3, 4 and 5 may be one of the best Pokemon of all-time. Put more respect on my goat's fucking name. Secondly, Psychic types that used Psychic moves were because they were monotype (like Alakazam).
Psychic-Types in Gen 5 OU are essentially like this:
Alakazam and Reuniclus derive their viability primarily from their ability, which is really controversial. Alakazam being the offensive one, Reuniclus being a great wall. Both get their viability from ignoring hazards, and both are majorly weakened by Pursuit. Alakazam having to run Focus Blast makes it way less consistent, and many have tried to get around that to varying success (usually little).
Latios basically ignores the Psychic STAB with Draco and Surf as primary attacking moves. Using Psychic likely just gets it killed as Tyranitar switches in already to Pursuit it, of which a lot of Latios as is get a lot of their value from chunking Tyranitar for the Rain team it's on to try and get the kill back, or hope Latios finishes it. Latios. The Psychic Type only adds one meaningful thing defensively, which is making it a good answer to Keldeo when things get dire, but the teams it's on are usually packing something like Tentacruel anyways.
Celebi was popular until it wasn't If the generation continued, it'd almost certainly not be in OU. Celebi had 6 total appearances in the course of SPL XIV Gen 5 OU, which is not that good.
Jirachi derives its value from being Jirachi, a Steel-Type which means it resists all of Psychic's weaknesses. Which is not good balance, either. Jirachi also does not use Psychic moves because it's a pretty bad typing, and instead its role is that of a Variety Monkey, packing utilities an resisting Latios (not Latios's Psychic, because that doesn't exist, for clarity!). Even when Jirachi uses a Calm Mind set, it basically never packs a Psychic move, instead sporting better coverage such as BoltBeam. Psychic only helps it quad resists Psychic (which who cares), be neutral to Ghost and Dark instead of resisting it, and be neutral to Fighting which is useful, but overall even at the best dualtype possible for Psychic in Gen 5, it's really not doing that much for its partner type.
Lastly, Starmie, and you're not gonna guess it: It doesn't use Psychic. This time though I will say Starmie being a Psychic type is valuable defensively, more than Latios because Starmie sets can be more utility focused which is better than still unrecoverably losing like 40% with rocks to a Keldeo. That is something you generally want to avoid, Latios is an emergency check. Starmie has sets that are pretty offensive still, don't get me wrong, but it's also a much more versatile mon that can get free turns versus other rain. Outside of that though, yeah, Psychic is just whatever.
Overall I'd say Gen 5 getting so many Psychic types is primarily due to Keldeo but also in general just 2 of them having good stats and Magic Bounce.
And I don't know why it's so hard to understand, but I want Psychic Type to be a good type in a vacuum. Not just "if it has this ability, and this great stat spread, and if it has a good dual type." I want it to be a type that has more defensive or offensive utility meaning that you actually want to proactively fit one onto your team, rather than it more being a drawback to an otherwise amazing Pokemon. Because in most gens, that is what Psychic is: A detriment to the Pokemon it's on. Especially due to Pursuit, but even now it's hard to get anything going with a Psychic type before Ghost Types (Which are literally better offensively and defensively, both sharing the trait of being a special type that generally can hit almost anything neutrally besides the key types, but Ghost is neutral against Steel), Knock Off, U-Turn, etc.
This isn't too much to ask as many tiers have this, especially when you look at lower tiers. If you look at images of the top Pokemon in every tier, you will always see certain traits and qualities in Pokemon (such as types) get to the top. I don't need Psychics to be a top 5 type or something, but I want it to have an actual purpose besides just being there to be owned by the several types that own it.
in a vacuum, types shouldn't be inherently better or worse, which is why steel warps so much of these interactions - it's obviously the best type defensively by sheer number of resistances, which improves the types that hit it for SE or even neutral damage, which creates its own ripple effects on the other types.
psychic hitting steel neutrally not only helps it offensively, but because of the above, it also becomes a better defensive type because it resists itself and that would be worth more without steel doing that job so competently.
psychic hitting steel neutrally not only helps it offensively, but because of the above, it also becomes a better defensive type because it resists itself and that would be worth more without steel doing that job so competently.
On the one hand, I do agree, Psychic honestly needs more buffs in general. But I'd hesitate to buff the type itself because of the potential for things that could change in unexpected ways. For example Tapu Lele was really hard hitting with its psychic terrain boosted psychics, and removing it's counters in Steel types would open it to sweep tiers even easier, similarly with Dusk Mane being a really great defensive wall doesn't need more buffs.
Hence the suggestion on making better and more unique moves to help buff the type offensively, like a 110-120 bp move or a freeze dry clone, and general changes to move distribution such as making U-turn not on everything under the sun to help it defensively, feels like a better option that's easier to balance. Quite honestly even a change of making U-turns distribution much smaller to like only be on bug types and bug like mons would help the type far more.
Hence the suggestion on making better and more unique moves to help buff the type offensively, like a 110-120 bp move or a freeze dry clone, and general changes to move distribution such as making U-turn not on everything under the sun to help it defensively, feels like a better option that's easier to balance. Quite honestly even a change of making U-turns distribution much smaller to like only be on bug types and bug like mons would help the type far more.
So, on Hisuian stuff, seeing it is for all intents and purposes Sinnoh in the past:
- Growlithe and Voltorb do make sense: One is a dog breed, another is primitive tech. Acceptable.
- Overqwil should had worked like Wyrdeer, and evolve from regular Qwilfish. Hell, the evo method is the same pretty much.
- Sneasler should had worked like Kleavor, being an item-based split evo of regular Sneasel (and, well, it should be Poison/Ice). No need for palette swap Sneasel, no need to rain on Toxicroak's parade being the same but better.
- Quilava has been able to evolve into regular Typhlosion when leveled around Mt.Coronet for 18 years. They really should have gone with Fennekin for the exotic fire starter, rather than something that had always been usable in Sinnoh.
- There were plenty more of gen 1-4 mons that could benefit from an evolution before normal type Machamp. But I've been grumbling about those things since Rhyperior and Porygon-Z. Boy all of those are good Mega concepts.
- Growlithe and Voltorb do make sense: One is a dog breed, another is primitive tech. Acceptable.
- Overqwil should had worked like Wyrdeer, and evolve from regular Qwilfish. Hell, the evo method is the same pretty much.
- Sneasler should had worked like Kleavor, being an item-based split evo of regular Sneasel (and, well, it should be Poison/Ice). No need for palette swap Sneasel, no need to rain on Toxicroak's parade being the same but better.
- Quilava has been able to evolve into regular Typhlosion when leveled around Mt.Coronet for 18 years. They really should have gone with Fennekin for the exotic fire starter, rather than something that had always been usable in Sinnoh.
On this one, no. The idea of magic and spiritual power diminishing or disappearing over time is a well-trodden one in the fantasy genre, so the case can very easily be made that modern Sinnoh is a fundamentally different environment than Hisui and thus the energy emanating from Mt Coronet is simply much less abundant than it once was.
while i don't disagree these specific mons don't need any more help being good, i also think the adequate design logic here is to change the types first, because it affects every pokémon the same way, and then if certain mons become overpowered from that, nerf them on their more individual features - movepool access and if necessary abilities and base stats.
in tapu lele's case maybe this wouldn't even be much of an issue because psychic could always just gain a fairy resistance (why did FIRE get that resistance, btw? barely adds anything to balance because all of fire's resistances overlap with steel except itself anyway), and therefore wall psychic/fairy coverage in the absence of steel. and then if that wasn't enough, tapu lele could lose shadow ball and therefore not have a viable SE against psychic.
Hey fellow chatters, remember when people were demanding ice types to get a defensive buff, they got it in gen 9, and broke several bulky ice type that suddently now could live hits? And that's not even a type chart change, it was simply making a weather give them 50% defense, meaning they're taking approximately some neutral hits when they were weak before.
I know I sound like a broken clock, but I'll reiterate: you cannot touch the type chart. Whatever you do, it'll break more things than it fixes.
Not in a game with now over 1000 pokemon + forms. The ramification of changing such a complicate system are much bigger than "oh it makes Aurorus less shit".
A non widely distributed "high powered move" does a much better job than changing type relationships if you're looking for variety, as seen by for example Ogerpon-rock not being broken despite having the best rock type attack of the game, or Baxcalibur still being ok with its basically no-drawback 120 BP Dragon stab (what broke the camel back for it was actually the DLC1 bringing it even more tools than it already had, see my point about "ramifications").
And once more, no. Types don't need to be equal. This ain't checkers. Play checkers if you want a game where "everything is equally worth". Or rockpaperscissorlizardspock. If all types are the same, you don't have a type chart anymore, you just have a bunch of "A beats B who beats C who beats A" with no interesting interactions or choices, you lose the ability to design "bad mons carried by the type" or "good mons let down by their type". You're literally not playing Pokemon anymore.
Have you noticed how, of all the various mods that Smogon and PS! host, none of the popular ones fucks with the type chart, despite that being very well possible since it's, well, mods? Ever wondered why?
I know I sound like a broken clock, but I'll reiterate: you cannot touch the type chart. Whatever you do, it'll break more things than it fixes.
Not in a game with now over 1000 pokemon + forms. The ramification of changing such a complicate system are much bigger than "oh it makes Aurorus less shit".
A non widely distributed "high powered move" does a much better job than changing type relationships if you're looking for variety, as seen by for example Ogerpon-rock not being broken despite having the best rock type attack of the game, or Baxcalibur still being ok with its basically no-drawback 120 BP Dragon stab (what broke the camel back for it was actually the DLC1 bringing it even more tools than it already had, see my point about "ramifications").
And once more, no. Types don't need to be equal. This ain't checkers. Play checkers if you want a game where "everything is equally worth". Or rockpaperscissorlizardspock. If all types are the same, you don't have a type chart anymore, you just have a bunch of "A beats B who beats C who beats A" with no interesting interactions or choices, you lose the ability to design "bad mons carried by the type" or "good mons let down by their type". You're literally not playing Pokemon anymore.
Have you noticed how, of all the various mods that Smogon and PS! host, none of the popular ones fucks with the type chart, despite that being very well possible since it's, well, mods? Ever wondered why?
Opinion that's apparently pretty unpopular:
Fighting and Ground are going to be major offensive types because of moves with both high power and high distribution regardless of what the current biggest defensive type is. As such, if a type is going to be a defensive powerhouse while being weak to both, it needs a large number of resistances to back that up. We all point to Rock as failing for this reason, why do we apparently want to repeat this with Steel?
Fighting and Ground are going to be major offensive types because of moves with both high power and high distribution regardless of what the current biggest defensive type is. As such, if a type is going to be a defensive powerhouse while being weak to both, it needs a large number of resistances to back that up. We all point to Rock as failing for this reason, why do we apparently want to repeat this with Steel?
I don't agree with this logic. I do not see more Pokemon going to Ubers as a sign that there is a problem in the type chart first of all, and Ice Type is still a pretty bad type, it just got another tool. Also what do you mean several? It's basically just Baxcalibur. Kyurem is going to get banned, but it was also banned last generation.
It's also literally not a type chart change.
To say that we can't change the type chart when Game Freak literally does and has in very stupid ways and the game still functioned is ridiculous. The status quo of types changing is not a bad thing. Also, just because some types will always be weaker does not mean that Psychic type should remain extremely terrible. Nothing you've said is convincing to me at all.
I think you misunderstood what I said.
I said that a minor change as "temporary removing a weakness" already pushes mons over the edge. Imagine completely removing a type weakness.
You always have to consider how you're altering the entire cast of Pokemon, even the ones that use moves of that type as coverage.
It's not as simple as "hey now psychic types can hit steel with stab". It also means every pokemon that gets a Psychic coverage (hint, a lot do) can now hit steel types with coverage whereas they were walled by it before.
It's not as simple as "give a ice type a resist", because now all these ice types that were let down by that resist suddently are bumped up in power and the pokemon that were strong for countering them are not anymore.
TLDR: the game is too complicated at this point to change even a single attribute of a type without fucking everything up and ending up playing a completely different game. A single change has a snowball effect on almost the entire roster, and you risk ending up in a situation that was more broken than before.
If you needed a example, you can just see what the simple existance of Fairy types did to the game. Adding a type that is immune to Dragon made one of the best types of the game suddently one of the worst that's mostly carried by just its pokemon having good stats, because the array of resistances it had means nothing if they cannot click their stab. The only reason that this generation has in both Showdown and VGC the presence of so many Dragon Types is the basic non-existance of Fairy types that can stop their stab.
Take Psychic, which you guys are so obsessed about right now. Have you ever heard what VGC players think about Psyspam currently? They hate it because it's a cheese strat that boils literally to "do you have way to tank psychic hits y/n". And you want to give it *more tools*? You want to make Steel types no longer able to stop Expanding Force? Or you want to make Rock Slide spam even more stupid by making Steel no longer resist Rock, removing one of the very few safe types against it?
Ya'll keep forgetting this game is not "just OU". There's not just these 40 or so pokemon in it. This game has over 1000 Pokemon. A single change to a mechanic does way more than "make Aurorus better".
well, first of all, rock has five weaknesses as opposed to three, and one of them is to the most common type of the games in terms of mon numbers. also, let's be real, steel losing resistance to psychic would be akin to it being neutral to electric at most. it's not a type being contained solely by being resisted by steel like, say, pre-fairy dragon. i don't know at which point taking resistances from steel would tangibly make it a bad type, but losing only psychic certainly isn't that point.
but mainly, types are much more inherent and immutable than moves are. yes, fighting and ground have widely distributed, powerful moves, but the moves can change or be distributed differently. which has been a subject in this thread already, btw - close combat is way too strong and its drawback too small to be as distributed as it is (and, maybe unpopular, but i don't think earthquake is very balanced either).
also, you are underselling how useful ground is offensively outside of earthquake - it's one of the two types that has more super effective than NVE/ineffective hits and it nails steel. thousand arrows single handedly broke zygarde, which was barely UU material without it, because it bypasses the one typing keeping ground type... grounded (heehee).
Not only do I think changing the type chart would be the Pokémon equivalent of opening up Pandora’s box, but I also think these changes are a bit too hypothetical for my liking. Yes, there’s still some disparity between the best and worst Types, but we’re in age where generational power creep has developed so much that Pokémon can be overpowered and/or broken even with poor offensive or defensive typing. Are there things that could be changed about the type chart? Probably, but it stands to reason that stronger game balance could be achieved by addressing the things that are actually breaking these Pokémon in the first place. The problem is, there’s no set definition for what makes a Pokémon truly overpowered or underpowered, especially not for the sake of a community like this with several unofficial competitive metagames that have wildly different rules than what you might see more often in the actual games.
Case in point- the Steel-Type is so good not only because of its many resistances, but also because of factors like a Toxic immunity, immunity to Samdstorm, and a Stealth Rock resistance. How often do those things show up in single player, though? Or in officially licensed VGC formats? Conversely, I personally think Grass is the worst single Type in the game (or at least tied for the spot with Normal and Bug), but that hasn’t stopped Grass-Types from tearing it up in modern metagames with consistent results, regardless of their less consistent single player results.
Case in point- the Steel-Type is so good not only because of its many resistances, but also because of factors like a Toxic immunity, immunity to Samdstorm, and a Stealth Rock resistance. How often do those things show up in single player, though? Or in officially licensed VGC formats? Conversely, I personally think Grass is the worst single Type in the game (or at least tied for the spot with Normal and Bug), but that hasn’t stopped Grass-Types from tearing it up in modern metagames with consistent results, regardless of their less consistent single player results.
i mean i will be upfront in that i don't care if anything i want changed in the games fucks up vgc because gamefreak itself doesn't care about balancing it so i don't either lol. i care about the in-game experience first (in which those issues can easily be made relevant, specially if you want to play efficiently), and the actually maintained and cared for metagames of smogon second.
I don't agree with any of this mentality.
Players will adapt. The balance will adapt.
I am not some "Pokemon is the GOAT!!! Love the status quo!!!" person, I play tons of alternatives to Pokemon, such as other monster collection games. No, the game will not shit itself is Steel does not wall almost everything in the game. Because nothing could.
Nothing is truly """broken""" in competitive Pokemon beyond a metagame level unless it disrupts the mechanics of the game. Hell, if you had a type that is literally super effective against every type in the game, if you could Toxic it, get hazard damage on it, use moves to lower its damage output and items like Sash to combat it, the core mechanics of competitive Pokemon would still be at play.
Would variety be ass? Sure, but that doesn't make the game "broken". Metas like CHALK were not broken, they were fine because they were playable.
So from my perspective where even that would not break the game, the idea of "omg how will we fight a bad type if Steel doesn't resist it" is funny. If Psyspam is broken in VGC, they will adapt, as they have every time. Psychic being a top tier type wouldn't break the game, it'd just change the status quo of what is on top. The status quo balance is not good, or bad, it's just what exists. It's what you're used to.
If you want to see "Psychic Type but Steel doesn't resist it", just look at Ghost. While you use Psyspam as an example of brokenness, Ghosts are just Psychic Type but better. You can say Psychic has things such as Psychic Terrain, but any type change will be accompanied by a new entire game where you could nerf Psychic Terrain.
This isn't some impossible game design task. It's literally never been. You bring up 1000 Pokemon, but that isn't even true anymore. Even if it was, you say "it's not like everything is just OU, there is other tiers"
First of all, VGC is way easier to balance. Inherently. Because you always have the ability of double targeting a Pokemon making it less viable. Mega Rayquaza is still insane, but even if it can 1v1 almost every Pokemon by sheer speed and DPS, you have a second Pokemon that can attack it on the turn. That isn't to diminish that Mega Ray is pretty broken, but to say that it is inherently easier to play around threats in VGC.
Secondly, if you are implying lower tiers Smogon: who cares? They can just ban broken Pokemon and continue as normal. It'd literally be fine. In the status quo already, we acknowledge that Pokemon is an extremely busted game, with tons of things that should be banned.
So actually: Yes, there really isn't that many Pokemon to take account of.
Players will adapt. The balance will adapt.
I am not some "Pokemon is the GOAT!!! Love the status quo!!!" person, I play tons of alternatives to Pokemon, such as other monster collection games. No, the game will not shit itself is Steel does not wall almost everything in the game. Because nothing could.
Nothing is truly """broken""" in competitive Pokemon beyond a metagame level unless it disrupts the mechanics of the game. Hell, if you had a type that is literally super effective against every type in the game, if you could Toxic it, get hazard damage on it, use moves to lower its damage output and items like Sash to combat it, the core mechanics of competitive Pokemon would still be at play.
Would variety be ass? Sure, but that doesn't make the game "broken". Metas like CHALK were not broken, they were fine because they were playable.
So from my perspective where even that would not break the game, the idea of "omg how will we fight a bad type if Steel doesn't resist it" is funny. If Psyspam is broken in VGC, they will adapt, as they have every time. Psychic being a top tier type wouldn't break the game, it'd just change the status quo of what is on top. The status quo balance is not good, or bad, it's just what exists. It's what you're used to.
If you want to see "Psychic Type but Steel doesn't resist it", just look at Ghost. While you use Psyspam as an example of brokenness, Ghosts are just Psychic Type but better. You can say Psychic has things such as Psychic Terrain, but any type change will be accompanied by a new entire game where you could nerf Psychic Terrain.
This isn't some impossible game design task. It's literally never been. You bring up 1000 Pokemon, but that isn't even true anymore. Even if it was, you say "it's not like everything is just OU, there is other tiers"
First of all, VGC is way easier to balance. Inherently. Because you always have the ability of double targeting a Pokemon making it less viable. Mega Rayquaza is still insane, but even if it can 1v1 almost every Pokemon by sheer speed and DPS, you have a second Pokemon that can attack it on the turn. That isn't to diminish that Mega Ray is pretty broken, but to say that it is inherently easier to play around threats in VGC.
Secondly, if you are implying lower tiers Smogon: who cares? They can just ban broken Pokemon and continue as normal. It'd literally be fine. In the status quo already, we acknowledge that Pokemon is an extremely busted game, with tons of things that should be banned.
So actually: Yes, there really isn't that many Pokemon to take account of.
I don't think the Snow or Psyspam comparisons are fair if the argument is about the Type chart rather than something like "better designed mons" or the call for new moves. Yes, Snow is a temporary buff, but it's also FAR more wide-reaching in that window than adding 1 resistance would be. It's 5 turns of on-average 9 extra resistances (18 types cut in half because Phys only because I don't want to do a full roster check for this one small point) in a game where even as designed, 1-2 extra turns has been enough for a mon to run away with things since 2010.
Baxcalibur is the only Pokemon who was definitively banned with Snow cited, and if you're going to argue Dragon is "one of the worst that's mostly carried by just its Pokemon having good stats," you can't ignore this argument being relevant to Baxcalibur as a very bulky Dragon with several set-up options that it was exploiting even BEFORE Snow was in the game. The other two banned Ice Types got the boot because they were min-maxed around Ice's 10/10 Offense and 2/10 Defense attributes while carrying not-widely-available tools like Freeze Dry (I agree that "turn a resist into a Weakness" moves are not a concept to use for fixing the type chart) and Sword of Ruin (literally just a recoil-less Life Orb for the purposes of damage calculation on Chien-Pao). Snowscape is just continuing their approach that we saw with Avalugg of "if we throw enough numbers this approach has to work eventually," and this time they just threw a particularly absurd number (and if anything it only proves that still isn't working because it broke ONE Pokemon who had a myriad of of specific/exclusive perks). The point there goes back to Ice is such a binary type that the mon designs can only effectively do one thing (Offensive powerhouse) and tools to let them try other roles either don't suffice or break them hard.
And Psyspam is based specifically on Doubles/VGC making Expanding Force and Psychic Terrain disproportionately stronger on aspects that don't strictly relate to the Type Chart. Consider comparison to Rising Voltage, with which it shares 1 Immunity, the same number of SE targets, and Psychic has 1 less Resistance to hit.
- Expanding Force is based on if the USER is grounded, taking one avenue of mitigation or counterplay out of the opponent's hand by default like Ballon and Levitate to avoid grounding for Rising Voltage. EF only has one condition to fulfill to gain every benefit of the move (user is grounded) to become 120 BP before STAB, the Terrain Boost, AND the Spread aspect.
- Electric Terrain Setting is non-existent pending the Restricted format of VGC allowing Miraidon. Psychic Terrain has 2 viable setters, one being Indeedee with a better statline than Pincurchin for a Surge, and the other Farigiraf who already carries several other anti-Meta Elements beyond Manual Psychic Terrain such as Armor Tail for Fake Out Protection and Trick Room synergy.
- Psychic Terrain is massively beneficial in VGC even beyond Psyspam because of the aforementioned Priority blocking, which would make it a considerable Support effect on top of the already extreme power it grants EF. By comparison, Rising Voltage is just a strong-but-less-reliable ST nuke and Grassy Glide's Priority is strong but not reliable enough on anyone besides Rillaboom itself as a standalone rather than the basis of a full team.
- This all ignoring the fact Expanding Force is on dozens of mons via TM while Rising Voltage is exclusive to Raging Bolt (who unrelated leans heavily on a Priority move that Psychic Terrain stops hard).
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