Unpopular opinions

[Worldie]

pika pal my examples were simply scenarios where a "simple change" snowballs exponentially, that is what i'm referring with snowball effect. Touching a single piece of the balance has consequences elsewhere. In this case people were talking about "letting psychic hit steel normally", or "let steel not resist rock", and I pointed how shortsighted that was, because sure in a vacuum it's innocuous, until you actually get the whole picture and it isn't anymore.
Same goes for the whole Snow thing, sure in a vacuum letting Ice types getting a defense boost in their weather is nothing particularly amazing and doesn't really fix much, but once put in practice, it made a few pokemon way stronger to the point of getting considered "overpowered", while doing literally nothing for all the other ice types. Because once more, "in a vacuum" doesn't work with how big the Pokemon roster is.

i mean i will be upfront in that i don't care if anything i want changed in the games fucks up vgc because gamefreak itself doesn't care about balancing it so i don't either lol

This is a blatant lie by the way, a terrible attitude and one of the main reasons for which i tend to be denigratory toward the general smogon posterbase. (and honestly, most of internet anyway)

GameFreaks definitely cares about balance, otherwise they'd not even bother buffing/nerfing pokemon between generations.
Whenever they do a good or bad job at it, it's up to debate, but saying "they don't care" is just a toxic, entitled attitude we could very well go without.
If "you" (not you specifically, any smogon poster) think you're better than GameFreaks at balancing a videogame, by all means show me your gaming design degree, I am waiting.

It's like the whole part where everyone apparently was a 3d graphic engineer when SwSh released, and everyone could program a 3d model in mere minutes, and produces atrocities like the good old Larpas

 

[CPU]

It's like the whole part where everyone apparently was a 3d graphic engineer when SwSh released, and everyone could program a 3d model in mere minutes, and produces atrocities like the good old Larpas

Unironically i'd love a Pokémon game where the models were stylized like this

 

[Samtendo09]

This is a blatant lie by the way, a terrible attitude and one of the main reasons for which i tend to be denigratory toward the general smogon posterbase. (and honestly, most of internet anyway)

GameFreaks definitely cares about balance, otherwise they'd not even bother buffing/nerfing pokemon between generations.
Whenever they do a good or bad job at it, it's up to debate, but saying "they don't care" is just a toxic, entitled attitude we could very well go without.
If "you" (not you specifically, any smogon poster) think you're better than GameFreaks at balancing a videogame, by all means show me your gaming design degree, I am waiting.

It's like the whole part where everyone apparently was a 3d graphic engineer when SwSh released, and everyone could program a 3d model in mere minutes, and produces atrocities like the good old Larpas

Just because Game Freak have a gaming design degree doesn’t mean they are doing good job in the long run. Even back in the first Generation, they imposed themselves short three-year schedule which explains the lots of glitches in Gen 1, and such a short three-year schedule doesn’t give them a lot of playtesting.

I also think that too many people tend to be too closeminded to balance changes no matter the intention, and while you got a point on requiring a closer look on balancing rather than on a vacuum, we can’t really theorize how “Psychic neutral on Steel” would run in practice until we put it into practice.

I agree on saying that GF don’t care about balance is a lie, but the power creep, especially Gen 9, and the fact that they nerf so few overpowered Pokémon, didn’t bothered to rearrange the stat distribution of OP Gen 9 mons within SV since the Treasure of Ruins’ small stat nerf in a Day 1 patch, and gave Swords Dance to Urshifu despite being an oppressive presence in VGC, do tell me that they are doing a very poor job on balancing so far, and it doesn’t look like this will change anytime soon.

It’s too little significant nerfs at the moment, and VGC, despite having diversity of viable Pokémon, do run risk of returning to the hated Gen 6 era due to Flutter Mane. And it might get to even closer level once the Restricted allowed, Shadow Rider Calyrex and, in Trick Room teams, Ice Rider Calyrex. If not more hated due to potential Pay-2-Win issues with Urshifu and a few Legends: Arceus mons like Ursaluna still not available without transfer.

I get that you are so tired of “fans right, company wrong” mentality, but do be mindful that there are some fans or even former fans willing to listen, while with GF, they tend to be too hit-or-miss on making solutions, and even refused to revert the Always-On All EXP Share and even Always-Switch-Battle-Style for in-game.

It’s best to playtest any change to see their impact, I do learn from it. But I also recommand to find a more neutral tone rather than a deliberately overtly agressive one, because there’s a far bigger chance people may not appreciate what you said than if you said it in a more neutral, otherwise you could come off just as disingenuous as those you criticized for.

 

[Mad Ram]

I also think that too many people tend to be too closeminded to balance changes no matter the intention, and while you got a point on requiring a closer look on balancing rather than on a vacuum, we can’t really theorize how “Psychic neutral on Steel” would run in practice until we put it into practice.

Actually we can. Remember Gen 6 Again? There was another change to the type chart that we haven't brought up. Steel no longer resists Dark and Ghost and they instead are neutral. This is the exact same thing we are talking about theoretically with Psychic. We can see what happened to those types and see how those types became. Considering what happened to those types since, I feel it safe to say Psychic neutral on Steel would give it far too much.

 

[CPU]

Actually we can. Remember Gen 6 Again? There was another change to the type chart that we haven't brought up. Steel no longer resists Dark and Ghost and they instead are neutral. This is the exact same thing we are talking about theoretically with Psychic. We can see what happened to those types and see how those types became. Considering what happened to those types since, I feel it safe to say Psychic neutral on Steel would give it far too much.

Dark also got the not-insignificant buff of Knock Off becoming one of the most spammable moves in the series. I think these specific changes were more to impact Steel (as it gained another resist and another type to hit super-effectively in Fairy) than to buff Dark and Ghost directly, though.

 

[Mad Ram]

Dark also got the not-insignificant buff of Knock Off becoming one of the most spammable moves in the series. I think these specific changes were more to impact Steel (as it gained another resist and another type to hit super-effectively in Fairy) than to buff Dark and Ghost directly, though.

Yes, and I do think that limits how well we can compare Dark to it. Ghost on the other hand is perfectly comparable especially it's also checked by Dark types and in fact was the type I was referring to.

Also intent really doesn't matter for comparing it. What we want to see is the effects, so we can judge based on that.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Not only do I think changing the type chart would be the Pokémon equivalent of opening up Pandora’s box, but I also think these changes are a bit too hypothetical for my liking. Yes, there’s still some disparity between the best and worst Types, but we’re in age where generational power creep has developed so much that Pokémon can be overpowered and/or broken even with poor offensive or defensive typing. Are there things that could be changed about the type chart? Probably, but it stands to reason that stronger game balance could be achieved by addressing the things that are actually breaking these Pokémon in the first place. The problem is, there’s no set definition for what makes a Pokémon truly overpowered or underpowered, especially not for the sake of a community like this with several unofficial competitive metagames that have wildly different rules than what you might see more often in the actual games.

Case in point- the Steel-Type is so good not only because of its many resistances, but also because of factors like a Toxic immunity, immunity to Samdstorm, and a Stealth Rock resistance. How often do those things show up in single player, though? Or in officially licensed VGC formats? Conversely, I personally think Grass is the worst single Type in the game (or at least tied for the spot with Normal and Bug), but that hasn’t stopped Grass-Types from tearing it up in modern metagames with consistent results, regardless of their less consistent single player results.

Interested to hear your reasoning for this, because I'm honestly not sure there is a worst type. There are certainly plenty of type combinations that are absolutely horrible and nigh-impossible to salvage (I'm thinking of Grass/Bug, Fire/Rock, and Grass/Dark as immediate examples - ironic that Grass plays a role in two of those) but I'm not sure there's a clear-cut worst type overall.

You can use outside factors like average BST to weigh them up - by which metric Dragon almost certainly wins hands down - but in terms of type advantages and disadvantages Grass is equally as vulnerable as Rock (both have five weaknesses) and offensively it's equally as poor as Bug (both are resisted by seven types). So an equal case could be made for Bug and Rock being the worst type, but then that's not even taking into account Ice's lack of resistances or Normal's lack of advantages. And ironically despite Normal having no advantages I think there's actually a pretty strong argument that Normal is one of the better types overall.

 

[Samtendo09]

I don't agree with any of this mentality.

Players will adapt. The balance will adapt.

I am not some "Pokemon is the GOAT!!! Love the status quo!!!" person, I play tons of alternatives to Pokemon, such as other monster collection games. No, the game will not shit itself is Steel does not wall almost everything in the game. Because nothing could.

Nothing is truly """broken""" in competitive Pokemon beyond a metagame level unless it disrupts the mechanics of the game. Hell, if you had a type that is literally super effective against every type in the game, if you could Toxic it, get hazard damage on it, use moves to lower its damage output and items like Sash to combat it, the core mechanics of competitive Pokemon would still be at play.

Would variety be ass? Sure, but that doesn't make the game "broken". Metas like CHALK were not broken, they were fine because they were playable.

So from my perspective where even that would not break the game, the idea of "omg how will we fight a bad type if Steel doesn't resist it" is funny. If Psyspam is broken in VGC, they will adapt, as they have every time. Psychic being a top tier type wouldn't break the game, it'd just change the status quo of what is on top. The status quo balance is not good, or bad, it's just what exists. It's what you're used to.

If you want to see "Psychic Type but Steel doesn't resist it", just look at Ghost. While you use Psyspam as an example of brokenness, Ghosts are just Psychic Type but better. You can say Psychic has things such as Psychic Terrain, but any type change will be accompanied by a new entire game where you could nerf Psychic Terrain.

This isn't some impossible game design task. It's literally never been. You bring up 1000 Pokemon, but that isn't even true anymore. Even if it was, you say "it's not like everything is just OU, there is other tiers"

First of all, VGC is way easier to balance. Inherently. Because you always have the ability of double targeting a Pokemon making it less viable. Mega Rayquaza is still insane, but even if it can 1v1 almost every Pokemon by sheer speed and DPS, you have a second Pokemon that can attack it on the turn. That isn't to diminish that Mega Ray is pretty broken, but to say that it is inherently easier to play around threats in VGC.

Secondly, if you are implying lower tiers Smogon: who cares? They can just ban broken Pokemon and continue as normal. It'd literally be fine. In the status quo already, we acknowledge that Pokemon is an extremely busted game, with tons of things that should be banned.

So actually: Yes, there really isn't that many Pokemon to take account of.

This, I agree so much! But granted, I do think that while I am nowhere as opposing to type chart changes as others are, I still think it is best save it as a last resort rather than first. Like if a new type alone controlled the metagames even more than Steel does, let’s say to the level that Dynamax does, then might as well nerf that type directly.

Gen 9 metagames have a status quo that is already much different than Gen 8, which was different than Gen 7, and so on. We should not be afraid to experiment on any potential change even if the result is less than sastifying, and be more willing to adapt and give criticism instead of staying closeminded to any change just because of the butterfly effect.

And I will say, I feel like some part of the Pokémon community comes off as too closeminded at times. Not just part of the Smogon community, mind you.

 

[Blue glass]

You can use outside factors like average BST to weigh them up - by which metric Dragon almost certainly wins hands down - but in terms of type advantages and disadvantages Grass is equally as vulnerable as Rock (both have five weaknesses) and offensively it's equally as poor as Bug (both are resisted by seven types). So an equal case could be made for Bug and Rock being the worst type, but then that's not even taking into account Ice's lack of resistances or Normal's lack of advantages. And ironically despite Normal having no advantages I think there's actually a pretty strong argument that Normal is one of the better types overall.

Bug has better defenses and Rock has better offenses than Grass at least numbers wise and that should make it worse than them but Grass resists and hit SE Water and Ground, two top tier types, and that makes it more powerful than it would be otherwise.

Psychic is the worst, resisting Poison is not very useful and it resists Fighting, a good to great attacking type, but psychic mons tend to have low def while fighting tend to have high atk. Hitting Poison and Fighting SE is nice but not spetacular. It can't hit dark at all so one can't spam psychic moves and it's weak to u-turn, knock off and ghost and dark, two good to great attacking types. Its only saving grace is the Fighting match-up. At least bug is supposed to be bad.

 

[Hugin]

As always, my unpopular opinion is the Dexit didn't go far enough. They needed to do a clean break: Rebalance the type chart, new stats for existing mons, rework available moves, etc. Bring us into SwSh with ~150 mons available that have been rebuilt from the ground up and half that new ones, and then slowly reintroduce existing mons over the course of DLCs and later generations. Instead we got a bunch of stuff eliminated but no improvements because GF refuses to take a break to catch their breath ever. Balance is impossible at this point without a significant rework of everything, and there's far too much stuff to do that sort of rework all at once.

 

[pika pal]

Dark also got the not-insignificant buff of Knock Off becoming one of the most spammable moves in the series. I think these specific changes were more to impact Steel (as it gained another resist and another type to hit super-effectively in Fairy) than to buff Dark and Ghost directly, though.

I think Dark was 2-fold compared to Ghost since Dark gained a new Resist in Fairy that they clearly wanted to have strong defensive presence, so they made it neutral to another prominent Defensive type to balance is

 

[bdt2002]

Interested to hear your reasoning for this, because I'm honestly not sure there is a worst type. There are certainly plenty of type combinations that are absolutely horrible and nigh-impossible to salvage (I'm thinking of Grass/Bug, Fire/Rock, and Grass/Dark as immediate examples - ironic that Grass plays a role in two of those) but I'm not sure there's a clear-cut worst type overall.

You can use outside factors like average BST to weigh them up - by which metric Dragon almost certainly wins hands down - but in terms of type advantages and disadvantages Grass is equally as vulnerable as Rock (both have five weaknesses) and offensively it's equally as poor as Bug (both are resisted by seven types). So an equal case could be made for Bug and Rock being the worst type, but then that's not even taking into account Ice's lack of resistances or Normal's lack of advantages. And ironically despite Normal having no advantages I think there's actually a pretty strong argument that Normal is one of the better types overall.

I was actually wondering when I'd get a chance to talk about this. Just this past year I started working on a cumulative ranking of every Type in the game based on their matchups relative to the others. I understand that many Types have extra bonuses- Rock and Ice have their weather based defensive buffs, Flying-Types are immune to Spikes, Ghost-Types can't be trapped, stuff like that- but for the ranking I made I wasn't taking these or any individual Pokémon into consideration. Not only would this be biased against any Types that don't have added bonuses, but in an effort to be as non-biased as possible, I went into this assuming a pool of 18 Pokémon who are exactly identical to one another in every way except their Type that could only battle each other with attacking moves, all of which would also be on completely even footing with each other.

When all offensive and defensive singular Type matchups are taken into consideration and are ranked by W-L-D (Win-Loss-Draw) Percentage, there were three Types that had the lowest W-L-D percentage. Without draws being considered as worth half the value of a win, the Normal-Type was the obvious candidate for the worst Type relative to the other 17, with zero wins and three losses against Fighting, Rock, and Steel. (Normal and Ghost share their immunities to each other, making this an even matchup between them.) With draws taken into account, however, the Normal-Type's final record comes out to a much more impressive 0-3-14, comparatively speaking at least. This change places Normal in contention with the Grass-Type and the Bug-Type, who coincidentally both finish with a 4-7-6 record, for the dishonor of Pokémon's worst singular Type relative to the others. Out of the tier of three Types sharing the same W-L-D percentage (41.18%), the Grass-Type loses the tiebreaker against the other two nominees on account of a worse head-to-head record against the other Types in its percentage tier- in this case, Bug goes 1-0-1 against Grass and Normal while Normal goes 0-0-2 against Grass and Bug, while Grass goes 0-1-1 against Normal and Bug.

I hope this helps also if anyone's wondering, post-nerf Psychic is actually the fourth worst type in the game just above these three so make of that what you will

 

[Sonikku A]

I remember how I posted my custom type chart here. The TLDR;

-Ice defensively was buffed. Also immune to Dragon
-Steel gains a weakness to Electric, but SE against Dragon
-Rock no longer is resisted by Steel, and resists Electric
-Poison Resists Water, and is SE against Fighting
-Bug gets a bunch of resists. Has Gen 1 tradeback with Poison

This is pre Gen 6 based, so Electrics can still be paralyzed, and Grass don't have powder immunity. Also, no Fairy type

So what happens?

Grass suffers, Flying is weakened, Fire slightly is weakened. Mons like Skarmory suffer a 4x weakness, Dragons are gimped in a way, even if they have fire coverage

Can this be worked around? Sure, if a lot of work is done to rebalance. Grass and Powders are too vital of a unique quality

But ultimately it shakes up the meta too heavily, and I doubt GF can comprehend it for 700+ mons. I barely bothered for my crack hack

 

[Hugin]

...You know, I wonder how much of this endless discussion would stop happening if Pokemon had a reasonable mod scene. Yes, there's romhacks, but mostly for old games, they're not exactly accessible for the average fan, and they usually change a LOT. And something like pet mods on Showdown don't really give players a good overview of how any change would affect things.
But if players could just open NexusMods and download a "Rebalanced Typechart All 18 viable!" or "Every mon gets reliable STAB" fix alongside "Beach fashion V3.0" and "Harder Boss lineup" mods, presumably at some point the fandom would figure out "Oh hey Dragon really doesn't need to be nerfed" or "Bug is fine if you just give it better moves for mid/lategame". But without a good way to test how things play out in a normal game, repeatedly, for a decent number of players, this discussion is going to keep happening.

 

[DreamPrince]

On topic of discussing the type chart, my only fix would make another type resist Ghost. Ghost is one of the best attacking types, and its two weaknesses are weak to Fighting, making Fighting/Ghost nearly unresisted with the exception of one line. There have been very centralizing Ghost types for the last few Gens, examples include Spectrier, Flutter Mane, Annilhape, Gholdengo, Marshadow, Dragapult, Calyrex-S, Mega Gengar, Mimikyu, Ceruledge, Lunala, and Aegislash to name a few ( This list covers VGC, BSS, and Smogon ). I don’t think a new type needs to be added, just another resist that isn’t weak to Fighting or Fairy. I was thinking Bug since Bugs are closely associated to Ghosts since they are both phobias hence the resistance.

 

[bdt2002]

On topic of discussing the type chart, my only fix would make another type resist Ghost. Ghost is one of the best attacking types, and its two weaknesses are weak to Fighting, making Fighting/Ghost nearly unresisted with the exception of one line. There have been very centralizing Ghost types for the last few Gens, examples include Spectrier, Flutter Mane, Annilhape, Gholdengo, Marshadow, Dragapult, Calyrex-S, Mega Gengar, Mimikyu, Ceruledge, Lunala, and Aegislash to name a few ( This list covers VGC, BSS, and Smogon ). I don’t think a new type needs to be added, just another resist that isn’t weak to Fighting or Fairy. I was thinking Bug since Bugs are closely associated to Ghosts since they are both phobias hence the resistance.

Hear me out- Rock resisting Ghost, especially if or when they Dexit the Nacli evolution family in any future generations. Purifying Salt is essentially a Ghost resist plus the status immunity (not to be confused with the immunity to status moves that Gholdengo has), and if you want to take this even further you can have Rock offensively hitting Water and Steel for super-effective damage as a very similar reference to Salt Cure. Unfortunately, I don't exactly see "Salt-Type" ever becoming a thing, but this might be the next best thing.

 

[Ransei]

It's honestly really good that Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were whole games instead of DLC. They came out during a time where whole Pokémon games where cheaper to buy the base version + upper version of than whole games + DLC versions now, despite the latter ending up with noticeably less content and the content not being as much worth the price. Gen 7 also allowed players to migrate their old friends from Sun and Moon into Pokémon Bank to sell Sun or Moon, get some money back, then use the remainder to get Ultra Sun or Ultra Moon. They could've also just got Sun + Ultra Moon or Moon + Ultra Sun and have every Pokémon for the dex bar either Blacephalon or Stakataka. You get two Stakataka or Blacephalon in each version, encouraging you to send one of them through the GTS for the opposite version Ultra Beast.

Another thing to point out is the accessibility. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon being full games at the time allowed for many players who skipped Sun and Moon to just jump into Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon instead of having to play $40 + DLC for what would have essentially been Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, making the full game option cheaper and more accessible in the long run. DLC would've then be inaccessible for newer players to download after the console's online service runs out. USUM being full games saved the preservation of these games, which likely would not be the case for SwSh and SV whenever Nintendo Switch online runs out.

Lastly, Pokémon DLC is a scam. Especially with the way Scarlet and Violet are doing it. They removed basic content (ex: battle facility) and story elements (ex: any remote lore explaining what makes the box arts legendary, the main lore of the game overall) that every previous major mainline series game had as a default. Basic staples of the game every previous entry either had right from the get go or with like 1 free update, just to repackage it as $35 DLC. People are having to pay $95 to get the same levels of content previous entries had for $40, or even $80 combined if you want to take that route.

 

[Esserise]

USUM being full games saved the preservation of these games, which likely would not be the case for SwSh and SV whenever Nintendo Switch online runs out.

SwSh has a physical version that includes the DLC.

SV does too, and although the initial prints don’t have The Indigo Disk on the cartridge, future prints probably will. The only problem after that point is the fact that the Mochi Mayhem epilogue won’t be available forever since it relies on an event item. (But even that’s not a new phenomenon for Pokémon; HGSS similarly has the Celebi / Giovanni event that ties up part of the story and can now only be accessed via hacking - Mochi Mayhem is just that but bigger, unfortunately.)

and story elements (ex: any remote lore explaining what makes the box arts legendary, the main lore of the game overall) that every previous major mainline series game had as a default.

I don’t think this is something they’ve “removed” so much as just taken a different approach to after so many generations of the same formula. Koraidon / Miraidon are at the heart of the narrative and are your companion for the entire length of the story. Their presence on the boxes is perfectly justified. They’re just not “Legendary” (which let’s be honest, is already an incredibly nebulous classification) in the usual sense of “they have a role in the region’s creation myth or formative history.” Instead, they are the creatures on the cover of the Scarlet / Violet Book, which plays a major role in the region’s history.

 

[ant4456]

It's honestly really good that Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were whole games instead of DLC. They came out during a time where whole Pokémon games where cheaper to buy the base version + upper version of than whole games + DLC versions now, despite the latter ending up with noticeably less content and the content not being as much worth the price. Gen 7 also allowed players to migrate their old friends from Sun and Moon into Pokémon Bank to sell Sun or Moon, get some money back, then use the remainder to get Ultra Sun or Ultra Moon. They could've also just got Sun + Ultra Moon or Moon + Ultra Sun and have every Pokémon for the dex bar either Blacephalon or Stakataka. You get two Stakataka or Blacephalon in each version, encouraging you to send one of them through the GTS for the opposite version Ultra Beast.

Another thing to point out is the accessibility. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon being full games at the time allowed for many players who skipped Sun and Moon to just jump into Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon instead of having to play $40 + DLC for what would have essentially been Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, making the full game option cheaper and more accessible in the long run. DLC would've then be inaccessible for newer players to download after the console's online service runs out. USUM being full games saved the preservation of these games, which likely would not be the case for SwSh and SV whenever Nintendo Switch online runs out.

Lastly, Pokémon DLC is a scam. Especially with the way Scarlet and Violet are doing it. They removed basic content (ex: battle facility) and story elements (ex: any remote lore explaining what makes the box arts legendary, the main lore of the game overall) that every previous major mainline series game had as a default. Basic staples of the game every previous entry either had right from the get go or with like 1 free update, just to repackage it as $35 DLC. People are having to pay $95 to get the same levels of content previous entries had for $40, or even $80 combined if you want to take that route.

It'd be extremely hard to convince me that considering the base game wasn't even finished, that they had that content done and held it back from the base game, but I also don't think you are saying that, I am pretty sure you are saying that the game should have been delayed/free update, which is completely fair.

Though, if you think this is the only time Pokemon games have made you pay up for the complete polished version of the game; Pokemon Platinum came out in 2008.

I do sympathize with you and wish the games came with more, but also consider that inflation is a real thing.

Then, having to buy Pokemon Platinum for the real game... Yeah, buying the original and then second version was actually more purchasing power spent than $95 for SV + the DLC. IMO Gen 4 is a more direct comparison than Gen 7 because it's a game that was actually pretty low on content in DP and then basically got its postgame similar to Emerald before, which at least Emerald has the excuse of stuff like the Battle Frontier being a new concept.

That being said also though, at least Pokemon Platinum is actually polished. Scarlet/Violet was never polished, even after the DLC, meaning that you could argue DP + Platinum is worth more since Platinum is pretty polished. I'm not really trying to argue against your point per se for clarification, more trying to bring up other things worth considering to this conversation as well.

Last thing to consider is that depending on how charitable your interpretation, Sun and Moon teasing stuff like the Photo buildings is either proof that the game was always throwaway, or that they literally axed out content that was finished in order to make more features for USUM.

Also my biggest issue with USUM is that if it's your entry point, you get the way worse version of the story, which is sad. This is something not really shown in any other third version. If anything, usually it just adds to the story a few scenes, while USUM outright replaces and cuts a lot of the third act. So even in 2024, I cannot tell someone to "just get USUM", because IMO it is actually the inferior campaign experience.

 

[Coronis]

It'd be extremely hard to convince me that considering the base game wasn't even finished, that they had that content done and held it back from the base game, but I also don't think you are saying that, I am pretty sure you are saying that the game should have been delayed/free update, which is completely fair.

Though, if you think this is the only time Pokemon games have made you pay up for the complete polished version of the game; Pokemon Platinum came out in 2008.

I do sympathize with you and wish the games came with more, but also consider that inflation is a real thing.View attachment 599071

Then, having to buy Pokemon Platinum for the real game... Yeah, buying the original and then second version was actually more purchasing power spent than $95 for SV + the DLC. IMO Gen 4 is a more direct comparison than Gen 7 because it's a game that was actually pretty low on content in DP and then basically got its postgame similar to Emerald before, which at least Emerald has the excuse of stuff like the Battle Frontier being a new concept.

That being said also though, at least Pokemon Platinum is actually polished. Scarlet/Violet was never polished, even after the DLC, meaning that you could argue DP + Platinum is worth more since Platinum is pretty polished. I'm not really trying to argue against your point per se for clarification, more trying to bring up other things worth considering to this conversation as well.

Last thing to consider is that depending on how charitable your interpretation, Sun and Moon teasing stuff like the Photo buildings is either proof that the game was always throwaway, or that they literally axed out content that was finished in order to make more features for USUM.

Also my biggest issue with USUM is that if it's your entry point, you get the way worse version of the story, which is sad. This is something not really shown in any other third version. If anything, usually it just adds to the story a few scenes, while USUM outright replaces and cuts a lot of the third act. So even in 2024, I cannot tell someone to "just get USUM", because IMO it is actually the inferior campaign experience.

Nah USUM had a better story.

 

[pika pal]

Lastly, Pokémon DLC is a scam. Especially with the way Scarlet and Violet are doing it. They removed basic content (ex: battle facility) and story elements (ex: any remote lore explaining what makes the box arts legendary, the main lore of the game overall) that every previous major mainline series game had as a default. Basic staples of the game every previous entry either had right from the get go or with like 1 free update, just to repackage it as $35 DLC. People are having to pay $95 to get the same levels of content previous entries had for $40, or even $80 combined if you want to take that route.

I disagree with this particular point as well. Putting aside the previous reply (which I agree with) that Koriadon/Miraidon are a different approach to mascots (them being unknowns/enigmas to the world is a major point), the DLC doesn't really add back or focus on these elements for either campaign. The sum of the Teal Mask and Indigo Disk stories is focusing on Kieran and co. for a Human cast (akin to a single Rival in each of the main story paths) and the lore expanded on is the self-contained narrative around Ogerpon and (if I'm calling this generously as "lore") more info about Terapagos and the Terastal Phenomenon, which isn't so much tied to the nature of the Paradoxes as a loose energy explanation for the Machine that brings them to the present.

I also think it's a misnomer to say these were previously done "from the get go" or with "1 free update" as a consistent pattern.

• GSC had most of Johto's Legendary lore from the outset fair enough, but most of the additional gameplay content was exclusive to Crystal as a separate purchase, not something you got if you bought GS first.
• RSE you noted put most of its new Post-Game content in Emerald.
• DPPt put most of Giratina's "anything" in the 3rd version along with the large content updates. Any "1 free update" changes were time-limited Mystery Gift events.
• BW and B2W2 aren't very comparable since those were and were marketed as outright sequel games continuing/extending the story timeline rather than just explaining more of it. Gameplay-side though this was again a new purchase rather than stuff added into the existing game
• XY didn't get new updates, ORAS are separate purchases distinctly placed in another region.
• SM and USUM has already been discussed, but it stands by the point I keep repeating that you had to rebuy the new version to get the new content, only this time with the caveat that the improved gameplay came with very unpopular story changes (meaning it might have been better ACTUALLY being patched in as suggested).

If the argument is that they should be handling it in this manner or adding more substantial content for paid DLC, that's not unfair, but this MO is the same old schtick under a different label. At least this method saves me having to replay the campaign again when I want to see the new stuff that got added a year later. If anything I appreciate that the DLC expansions are at least willing to branch out more: instead of "here's more Necrozma info while we rewrite Lusamine" or "we're gonna rewrite Rayquaza's lore," stuff like the Crown Tundra or Teal Mask/Indigo Disk can completely shift their focus onto different casts and lore that don't have to relate back to the main foundational story of the base game when making a "V1.5" third version.

 

[bdt2002]

I don’t have a whole lot of time to write this post and elaborate on what I’m saying since I have a class to go to in a few minutes, but long story short, I think third version games and DLC releases are about equal in terms of quality and quantity. When Game Freak made the transition from third version games to DLC during Sword & Shield, they specifically mentioned at some point, albeit not word for word, that the DLC is meant to be a replacement to the third version release model, one that I would imagine wouldn’t have been possible without the base games selling well enough to warrant the decision to not need to release a third version expansion. For all intents and purposes, you can include Black 2 & White 2 on this list also since they’ve also gone on record saying what would have been Pokémon Grey was designed as two of these split sequel games instead.

The financial status of Base Game + third version tends to be more accurate to Base Game + DLC than you might expect, both in terms of price point and sales count. Yes, it’s not a perfect comparison, but there’s an argument to be made that the added price point is made up for by not having to play through the same base game a second time.

 

[bdt2002]

I don’t have a whole lot of time to write this post and elaborate on what I’m saying since I have a class to go to in a few minutes, but long story short, I think third version games and DLC releases are about equal in terms of quality and quantity. When Game Freak made the transition from third version games to DLC during Sword & Shield, they specifically mentioned at some point, albeit not word for word, that the DLC is meant to be a replacement to the third version release model, one that I would imagine wouldn’t have been possible without the base games selling well enough to warrant the decision to not need to release a third version expansion. For all intents and purposes, you can include Black 2 & White 2 on this list also since they’ve also gone on record saying what would have been Pokémon Grey was designed as two of these split sequel games instead.

The financial status of Base Game + third version tends to be more accurate to Base Game + DLC than you might expect, both in terms of price point and sales count. Yes, it’s not a perfect comparison, but there’s an argument to be made that the added price point is made up for by not having to play through the same base game a second time.

I apologize for the double post, but I have some more time now to finish what I started. In my original post I mentioned that modern games couldn't afford to release DLC over a third version expansion unless it sold well enough to do so. What I meant by that is that, since the sales success of a DLC expansion is attached to that of the base game, a portion of modern Pokémon's game sales may have been encouraged by the DLC itself- in other words, those buyers may not have bought the game without the DLC's existence. In the past I've pointed out how I thought it was suspicious how SwSh and SV have sold so well despite being so unpopular compared to the older games, but when you look at the numbers this way, the dynamic of game quality changes completely:

• RGB + Yellow: 45.69 million sales
  • These account for all regional releases of each version
• GS + Crystal: 30.12 million sales
• RS + Emerald: 23.28 million sales
• DP + Platinum: 25.27 million sales
• BW + B2W2: 24.16 million sales
• XY + no extra game(s): 16.72 million sales
• SM + USUM: 25.51 million sales
• SwSh + DLC: 26.02 million sales
• SV + DLC: 23.23 million sales

(Generations in bold are on actively supported hardware and as such these numbers can continue to increase over time)

I understand that this isn't a perfect comparison, of course, since Switch games as a whole tend to sell much better on account of being able to advertise to both the console and handheld audiences at the same time. Plus, there's the factor of how much each generation costed at launch, and there's the fact that DLC sales would technically add onto the existing numbers of their base games as far as revenue profit is concerned. But with the obvious and unfortunate exception of XY, the correlation of what the DLC is trying to "fill in" for the base games becomes much clearer, at least in my opinion. If you want to be extremely generous, you could also make an argument in favor of pairing BDSP and Legends with each other on my list I made: doing so increases your costs to $120 U.S. as opposed to the normal cost of $60 U.S. plus DLC, but the two releases collectively sold 29.92 million units to date.

 

[Axiemeister]

On topic of discussing the type chart, my only fix would make another type resist Ghost. Ghost is one of the best attacking types, and its two weaknesses are weak to Fighting, making Fighting/Ghost nearly unresisted with the exception of one line. There have been very centralizing Ghost types for the last few Gens, examples include Spectrier, Flutter Mane, Annilhape, Gholdengo, Marshadow, Dragapult, Calyrex-S, Mega Gengar, Mimikyu, Ceruledge, Lunala, and Aegislash to name a few ( This list covers VGC, BSS, and Smogon ). I don’t think a new type needs to be added, just another resist that isn’t weak to Fighting or Fairy. I was thinking Bug since Bugs are closely associated to Ghosts since they are both phobias hence the resistance.

i absolutely agree - i akways thought ghost could be reasonably resisted by bug (because they are simple creatures and not really haunted as easily) and fire (because fire has a lot of symbolism about purification attached to it). they really missed an opportunity by giving fire the fairy resistance (instead of giving it to grass and/or psychic, which make more sense as flavour) instead of the now missing ghost one.

 

[lepton]

This isn't a criticism I levy often, but Yamper feels like it was trying too hard to be cute with the expression combined with the yellow spots and simple bright green eyes as opposed to the Black dots for the real Corgis. I can't explain it but it feels so artificial to me compared to something like Wooper or even stuff only I find cute like Slither Wing.

i’m very late i know but slither wing is ADORABLE im so glad there’s someone else