yeah that’s a good point. My question is does the fact that it’s only broken on a single archetype matter? The main reason Bax was banned because it was broken on Aurora Veil Hail teams. What is the standard tiering policy when it comes to pokemon that are broken only in a certain playstyle?
-
The moderators of this forum are Finchinator, Ruft, ausma, 658Greninja, kd458, FayaWizard, Srn, TPP, and viivian.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
yeah that’s a good point. My question is does the fact that it’s only broken on a single archetype matter? The main reason Bax was banned because it was broken on Aurora Veil Hail teams. What is the standard tiering policy when it comes to pokemon that are broken only in a certain playstyle?
You assess whether that playstyle breaks other mons, which for me is also Barra, but I won't talk about that because it has been talked about a lot and people are kinda sick of it. If you think that rain only breaks arch, then arch is broken. But if rain breaks arch and barra, and some may even say raging bolt but I disagree with that because bolt is just as good outside of rain, then rain is broken.
i think it matters how much it relies on that certain playstyle. bax could fit on non-veil teams just fine with the same broken sets, but you need to commit your entire team to rain to enable arch to viably run electro shot. you're effectively dedicating at least 3 other teamslots (pelipper, skewda, and treads, all essential on rain) just to let archaludon use one single move
(and for the record, if you're dedicating over half your team to enabling one move on one mon, the move is probably the problem)
Last edited:
Bax got several new toys at once but it was suspect deserving even before then. Trying to guess if it was SD or choice band was a horrible existence. Veil + scale shot pushed it from broken to.. well.. I can't think of the right word. But it was way stronger than arch. Either way arch deserves a look, I personally think it's underutilised on grassy terrain and if rain is nerfed we'll see it more with rillaboom.
Good point. I agree its a given that Bax was more broken than Arch. At the same time I think it’s important to keep in mind that while Arch benefits immensely from rain, it also patches up a lot of rain’s weaknesses. That is, providing a 4x grass resist and a reliable way to break and snowball against common walls like Glowking. It’s notable that the few splashable defensive checks to Rain AV Arch, mainly Ting Lu and Spdef Gliscor, have poor matchups against the other breakers on Rain.
Overall I feel that it’s a shame Arch got electro shot. It’s an interesting and balanced mon without it and all of the non-rain sets are fine. But I think rain provides Arch with the right support to push it over the edge. Relying on Rain isn’t much of a handicap when Arch is simultaneously patching up the weaknesses of said playstyle.
yeah I agree I guess it’s a “when you know you know” obvious a lot of mons that get banned are HO oriented, but you wouldn’t just say “well they’re only good on HO, therefore not broken”
Right now I just find rain so overwhelming that I look to Arch as the common denominator, but Raging Bolt could also be a culprit there.
You know, a positive of Kyurem staying is that Heatran still has the ability to check one of the best mons in the tier.
I am picking at straws to see the benefits of Kyurem staying, so please give me this.
I am picking at straws to see the benefits of Kyurem staying, so please give me this.
SpDef Gliscor is not even a great check to Archaludon as Archaludon wins with proper prediction with Flash Cannon into Draco Meteor assuming that Gliscor switches into Electro Shot if the Archaludon user can keep hazards off the field.
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 294-346 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 181-214 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 168-198 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 30.9% chance to 2HKO
Let's say Gliscor switches into Electro Shot. Gliscor uses Earthquake, and Archaludon then uses Flash Cannon. Gliscor uses Protect, and Archaludon uses Electro Shot. Gliscor uses Earthquake again, which Archaludon lives barring 2 high rolls, and Archaludon smites Gliscor with Draco Meteor.
Good point. Just goes to show how cracked Rain Arch is.
Gliscor is not typically a good special wall 'cause of its low special bulk. Clodsire, if Archaludon doesn't tech Earthquake over Body Press for it, Ting-Lu, Assault Vest Earth Power Landorus-Therian, and Hippowdon (forcing it out with Whirlwind) are better Ground-type checks to it for the most part.
Evaluating a Mon based on its most potent set, in Arch's case it should ONLY be evaluated in context of rain teams; that goofy Stealth Rock Leftovers set you see on Grassy Terrain isn't much of a factor just like Specs Ice Beam + Freeze Dry + Pulse Bax wasn't a factor in its ban either. If the certain archetype was significantly limited or required significant positioning then that could be another story but "send Pelipper into battle" being the requirement is not exactly "positioning" or "significant team support"
It aint just you, dw this aint a personal call out or whatever, but god it sucks that whenever something's close, it's always, "We gotta retest it, we gotta throw it against the wall until it breaks."
Like Arena Trap and Dugtrio and Diglett. Just keep throwing bans and tests out until its done for anyways.
Dugtrio survived its suspect test because people wanted to ban Arena Trap as a whole since Diglett could do much of the same thing against most of Dugtrio's trapping targets. Voting Do Not Ban on Dugtrio forced the OU Council to eventually do an Arena Trap test. It was not that it was tested over and over until it was banned.
I'm not saying Kyurem will be tested again immediately, but it will likely have eyes kept on it due to how close the vote was and will continue to be on surveys and action could be taken if it gets more problematic.
This has happened in many permanent metas, like in SS natdex with Cinderace which survived a close suspect, continued to be problematic and was suspected again in a month or two due to having community support. Kyurem I am thinking will probably be a similar case as it is likely to only get stronger if Roaring Moon and Archaludon get banned within the next month or two's worth of time and will likely continue to be an issue. That being said I could be wrong about Kyurem becoming more overbearing, but I would not be shocked to see Kyurem getting another suspect or a vote if it gets more problematic with bans of other pokemon. We shall see how things play out.
Also to the OUPL players who think Scizor is a Kyurem check, it's not a good check at all even if you can offensively threaten it, mon still takes a ton from most of Kyurem's moves and has a high chance to be 2hko'd by it
This has happened in many permanent metas, like in SS natdex with Cinderace which survived a close suspect, continued to be problematic and was suspected again in a month or two due to having community support. Kyurem I am thinking will probably be a similar case as it is likely to only get stronger if Roaring Moon and Archaludon get banned within the next month or two's worth of time and will likely continue to be an issue. That being said I could be wrong about Kyurem becoming more overbearing, but I would not be shocked to see Kyurem getting another suspect or a vote if it gets more problematic with bans of other pokemon. We shall see how things play out.
Also to the OUPL players who think Scizor is a Kyurem check, it's not a good check at all even if you can offensively threaten it, mon still takes a ton from most of Kyurem's moves and has a high chance to be 2hko'd by it
This is a relief to read. Team building just isn't fun now. I don't like this dlc as much as the first.
RE: Archaludon, as the Walking Wake suspect showed, if a mon is only problematic on a specific archetype, then it really does matter how good that archetype is.
At the time of its test, Wake was clearly too good on sun teams, but sun teams were otherwise sub-par, so while "Wake on Sun" was an overpowered mon, "Sun with Wake" was not an overpowered team - and so Wake lived.
"Arch on Rain" is arguably too good for a single mon, but what really makes it the next suspect test is that rain is otherwise very solid, so "Rain with Arch" is utterly dominating at high levels. Now, maybe this'll change as the meta adapts - that's one of the reasons for an extended suspect test, so that adaptations have a chance to develop - but if those adaptations are all 'rain exclusive' and serve little other purpose, then that's unhealthy. If they're otherwise-good mons seeing greater use (IE, DLC1 Ogerpon-W) then that's fine.
This also means that, yes, other nerfs to rain that end up knocking "Rain with Arch" down would be a workable solution, though Finch has made it clear that Archaludon itself is being suspected.
At the time of its test, Wake was clearly too good on sun teams, but sun teams were otherwise sub-par, so while "Wake on Sun" was an overpowered mon, "Sun with Wake" was not an overpowered team - and so Wake lived.
"Arch on Rain" is arguably too good for a single mon, but what really makes it the next suspect test is that rain is otherwise very solid, so "Rain with Arch" is utterly dominating at high levels. Now, maybe this'll change as the meta adapts - that's one of the reasons for an extended suspect test, so that adaptations have a chance to develop - but if those adaptations are all 'rain exclusive' and serve little other purpose, then that's unhealthy. If they're otherwise-good mons seeing greater use (IE, DLC1 Ogerpon-W) then that's fine.
This also means that, yes, other nerfs to rain that end up knocking "Rain with Arch" down would be a workable solution, though Finch has made it clear that Archaludon itself is being suspected.
We lost… the meta is finished… how could this happen… Kyurem why… why…
Ignore this poster. Psychic is an awesome type. Boosts power with psychic terrain! You should totally do it!
My elo could do with an encounter with a Psychic Tera Clodsire. Don't take the easy win from me, please.
Just wanna say this, there’s like 40ish Pokémon in OU. If you believe a fourth of the Meta is Broken, it may be more Power Creep than Broken at this point. If a fourth of the Metagame is broken, it’s more, “these are the top 10 Mons in OU”, instead of, “Anything that makes Toxapex lose viability must be broken!” Literally every single offensive Pokémon in OU would be broken in Gen 4 OU. It could be that the power standard is changing. Back in the day, Mons like Flygon, Dugtrio, Cloyster, and Jolteon were OU material. Just saying, Power Creep.
Spdef gliscor is a great set. Archaludon just isn’t its best matchup. Spdef glisc is excellent to get a toxic off on Volcarona and Raging Bolt.
To my knowledge nobody runs hippowdon, it’s a subpar mon. Turns out AV lando T is solid (thanks Magcargo)
Clodsire can deal with Arch but it’s an extremely exploitable mon in many other matchups.
AV Arch can actually beat Ting Lu with body press if it’s not at full HP on the switch in.
Last edited:
Fair, seems like special Lando does well in the tier right now matchup wise. It does feel like it’s exploited hard by mons like Glisc and Skarm. Nonetheless better than I’m giving it credit for probably, even if it does feel like a meta cope.
I am so happy Kyurem stayed in the format. Good job everyone! :)
Well you lost. I’m not sure who we is but I’m happy Kyurem is sticking around. Just gotta adapt and move on to the next suspect.
Please explain what else Volc does in the rain matchup beyond the same thing to Kingambit