Metagame Views From The Council [ SEE POST 716 ]

[singaporygon]

EDIT: I see now, that council members post something and people respond.
But then, could we have like some sort of system to find council posts easier? A Table of Contents on the OP, that have links to council member posts (but this could be too much work) ?
Because as a semi-casual, I don't know who the council members are off the top of my head, and it's kind of a pain to scroll through to find the posts imo.
/endEdit

Sorry if this is annoying af, but I don't get the point of this thread? Is this compared to the OU metagame discussion thread, similar to OU chatroom vs Lobby chatroom, lol?

Like the OU metagame discussion thread is already the place for long paragraphs about the metagame and analysis and etc.

I was hoping this thread would be locked to everyone but the council members, so the general community could easily read any thoughts the council wants to share.

 

[Lily]

Hi folks, we're still discussing the recent survey results and are considering action in the nearish future, but there is something we didn't cover on the survey and as a result it got tons of write-ins. If you've been following SPL at all you've likely seen the dominance of Pecharunt, and the council has been questioning whether or not its metagame impact is positive.


Pech's bag of tricks is simple but extremely effective - its just-perfect Speed tier, mammoth physical bulk and, most importantly, combination of Malignant Chain & Poison Puppeteer make it a complete nightmare to switch into. In addition to this, the combo of instant recovery & Parting Shot makes it really tough to wear Pecharunt down; few things threaten it, outspeed it, and switch into it, so it can essentially always get a free Parting Shot off to enable a teammate an easier pivot. With the SV OU landscape having few Poison-immune Pokemon, Pecharunt's Malignant Chain + Hex combination can be a real nightmare to switch into; it doesn't do much damage to stuff like Ting-Lu but they get worn down fast by Toxic poison, and typical absorbers like Gholdengo and Gliscor take a decent amount from Hex, so switching into the runt is tough despite low SpA. However, it's the ability that really drives it over the edge.

We've all seen it by now; Pecharunt switches in on Great Tusk's Headlong Rush and somehow still proceeds to win the 1v1 all because it got a toxic -> selfhit -> Recover spam. Or it manages to get through a Ting-Lu, or a Hisuian Samurott, or something else with a high power STAB move that it has no business beating. It's infuriating to be on the other side of.

Of course there are options to limit it; Iron Treads is a spinner capable of annoying it, weakening the PechLu core. There are status absorbers that don't care much about what it does like Garganacl, and of course it's Kingambit food - but Parting Shot is a real pain for these guys, and Pecharunt has a habit of outlasting them if it doesn't get sacked to a Headlong Rush off the rip. It can also have trouble against Galarian Slowking, but that's a Pokemon Pecharunt has nearly pushed out of the metagame at this point, because what makes Pech so frustrating is just how valuable it is defensively.

It checks the DDers, it checks Zamazenta, it checks Valiant, it checks Ogerpon, it checks Cinderace, the thing 1v1s Tusk and Lu, and with Tera there's basically no physical attacker it can't beat. That's a huge amount of role compression! It's no wonder the best players are so eager to build with it, but that only magnifies the issue of Pecharunt Roulette.

Basically, it comes down to this. The Toxic + Confusion combination is super frustrating for basically everything and having games dictated on whether or not Pecharunt manages to make it happen is something we're not sure is desirable. It's hardly an RNG matchup fish, since it's very bulky and pretty fast and gets plenty of opportunities to click the move, but it's still a major nuisance. We're not looking into any action yet but want to gauge the community's pulse on it. Thanks!

 

[Srn]

Hot/weird take:

Anything that improves Great Tusk's viability will improve this tier. Role compression is super valuable in SV and I understand why some players want to keep Pecharunt in the tier for it's ability to check so many things on the physical side. But if that comes at the cost of enabling degenerate Ting-Lu/Pecha hstacks that force teams to spam boots or run double removal, then I think it's a net negative effect on the tier. Yes we have Sinistcha, Balloon Ghold, and Dragapult but Sinistcha is much easier to exploit and Ghold/Tusk cannot repeatedly switch into Tusk's attacks.

Being able to actually rely on Tusk to remove hazards would improve this tier far more than anything pecharunt does.

 

[Finchinator]

We have tiering action on Pokemon because they are broken or uncompetitive, not because they make X better or Y more convenient in the grand scheme of things. Obviously any ban will open up other Pokemon to see more usage both directly and indirectly, but I do think discussion should focus itself on Pech, not Great Tusk being freed up or anything quite like that.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Pecharunt right now feels more uncompetitive than stupid busted broken - just like 20 other things in SV OU. You could ban those 20 and 20 new stupid busted broken threats would dominate OU. It certainly has potential to be a nuisance in high level play as evidenced by SPL, but I don't see it right now. It seems to to be the symptom of problems (hazard stacking as the dominant strategy, power levels that would make past gen Ubers blush, and Tera wrecking any notion of "countering" things) and not a root cause of any major grievance.

 

[MC Squared]

Crazy that a year ago this thing was considered mid and it was UU. But to not make this a one liner do you think the combination of instant confusion with poison status makes it uncompetitive? It harkens back to, well recently, the Machamp ban in Gen 4 OU because of the combination of No Guard + Dynamic Punch, a damaging move that always hits and also causes confusion all the time. In this case, you can either use Toxic or a Poison move that can also inflict confusion.

 

[RainebowValiant]

Hi folks, we're still discussing the recent survey results and are considering action in the nearish future, but there is something we didn't cover on the survey and as a result it got tons of write-ins. If you've been following SPL at all you've likely seen the dominance of Pecharunt, and the council has been questioning whether or not its metagame impact is positive.


Pech's bag of tricks is simple but extremely effective - its just-perfect Speed tier, mammoth physical bulk and, most importantly, combination of Malignant Chain & Poison Puppeteer make it a complete nightmare to switch into. In addition to this, the combo of instant recovery & Parting Shot makes it really tough to wear Pecharunt down; few things threaten it, outspeed it, and switch into it, so it can essentially always get a free Parting Shot off to enable a teammate an easier pivot. With the SV OU landscape having few Poison-immune Pokemon, Pecharunt's Malignant Chain + Hex combination can be a real nightmare to switch into; it doesn't do much damage to stuff like Ting-Lu but they get worn down fast by Toxic poison, and typical absorbers like Gholdengo and Gliscor take a decent amount from Hex, so switching into the runt is tough despite low SpA. However, it's the ability that really drives it over the edge.

We've all seen it by now; Pecharunt switches in on Great Tusk's Headlong Rush and somehow still proceeds to win the 1v1 all because it got a toxic -> selfhit -> Recover spam. Or it manages to get through a Ting-Lu, or a Hisuian Samurott, or something else with a high power STAB move that it has no business beating. It's infuriating to be on the other side of.

Of course there are options to limit it; Iron Treads is a spinner capable of annoying it, weakening the PechLu core. There are status absorbers that don't care much about what it does like Garganacl, and of course it's Kingambit food - but Parting Shot is a real pain for these guys, and Pecharunt has a habit of outlasting them if it doesn't get sacked to a Headlong Rush off the rip. It can also have trouble against Galarian Slowking, but that's a Pokemon Pecharunt has nearly pushed out of the metagame at this point, because what makes Pech so frustrating is just how valuable it is defensively.

It checks the DDers, it checks Zamazenta, it checks Valiant, it checks Ogerpon, it checks Cinderace, the thing 1v1s Tusk and Lu, and with Tera there's basically no physical attacker it can't beat. That's a huge amount of role compression! It's no wonder the best players are so eager to build with it, but that only magnifies the issue of Pecharunt Roulette.

Basically, it comes down to this. The Toxic + Confusion combination is super frustrating for basically everything and having games dictated on whether or not Pecharunt manages to make it happen is something we're not sure is desirable. It's hardly an RNG matchup fish, since it's very bulky and pretty fast and gets plenty of opportunities to click the move, but it's still a major nuisance. We're not looking into any action yet but want to gauge the community's pulse on it. Thanks!

machamp gives u a 50% chance to move when it uses its stupid ass shit
pecharunt gives u a 87.5% chance to move when it uses its stupid ass shit and also has a 50% chance to BADLY POISON YOU

also machamp wasnt rly a staple of the tier, pecharunt is a massive defensive check to everything and also beats arguably the #1 in the tier harder than everything else ever. it also fucks up tusk tryna spin. pecharunt is a defensive staple that also has RNG bullshit.

not saying DPP and SV banning ideals are the same by any means, but if we acted like the DPP community we should ABSOLUTELY ban it. this mon is kinda stupid and im down to see it go because man is it suuuuuuuuuuuuch a bitch. 50% chance to toxic AND confuse you at the same time when it clicks its fucking 100 BP STAB move is stupid alongside 88/160 phys bulk, recover, and PARTING SHOT. stupid ass mon.

 

[Zcarlett]

Hi folks, we're still discussing the recent survey results and are considering action in the nearish future, but there is something we didn't cover on the survey and as a result it got tons of write-ins. If you've been following SPL at all you've likely seen the dominance of Pecharunt, and the council has been questioning whether or not its metagame impact is positive.


Pech's bag of tricks is simple but extremely effective - its just-perfect Speed tier, mammoth physical bulk and, most importantly, combination of Malignant Chain & Poison Puppeteer make it a complete nightmare to switch into. In addition to this, the combo of instant recovery & Parting Shot makes it really tough to wear Pecharunt down; few things threaten it, outspeed it, and switch into it, so it can essentially always get a free Parting Shot off to enable a teammate an easier pivot. With the SV OU landscape having few Poison-immune Pokemon, Pecharunt's Malignant Chain + Hex combination can be a real nightmare to switch into; it doesn't do much damage to stuff like Ting-Lu but they get worn down fast by Toxic poison, and typical absorbers like Gholdengo and Gliscor take a decent amount from Hex, so switching into the runt is tough despite low SpA. However, it's the ability that really drives it over the edge.

We've all seen it by now; Pecharunt switches in on Great Tusk's Headlong Rush and somehow still proceeds to win the 1v1 all because it got a toxic -> selfhit -> Recover spam. Or it manages to get through a Ting-Lu, or a Hisuian Samurott, or something else with a high power STAB move that it has no business beating. It's infuriating to be on the other side of.

Of course there are options to limit it; Iron Treads is a spinner capable of annoying it, weakening the PechLu core. There are status absorbers that don't care much about what it does like Garganacl, and of course it's Kingambit food - but Parting Shot is a real pain for these guys, and Pecharunt has a habit of outlasting them if it doesn't get sacked to a Headlong Rush off the rip. It can also have trouble against Galarian Slowking, but that's a Pokemon Pecharunt has nearly pushed out of the metagame at this point, because what makes Pech so frustrating is just how valuable it is defensively.

It checks the DDers, it checks Zamazenta, it checks Valiant, it checks Ogerpon, it checks Cinderace, the thing 1v1s Tusk and Lu, and with Tera there's basically no physical attacker it can't beat. That's a huge amount of role compression! It's no wonder the best players are so eager to build with it, but that only magnifies the issue of Pecharunt Roulette.

Basically, it comes down to this. The Toxic + Confusion combination is super frustrating for basically everything and having games dictated on whether or not Pecharunt manages to make it happen is something we're not sure is desirable. It's hardly an RNG matchup fish, since it's very bulky and pretty fast and gets plenty of opportunities to click the move, but it's still a major nuisance. We're not looking into any action yet but want to gauge the community's pulse on it. Thanks!

Mon is without a doubt annoying and uncompetitive, albeit to a lesser degree than the Machamp people are making allusions to. That being said, I think there are bigger more pressing issues (namely Ogerpon W and Kyurem depending on how the council wants to handle that situation).

 

[pixelpenguin]

Mon is without a doubt annoying and uncompetitive, albeit to a lesser degree than the Machamp people are making allusions to. That being said, I think there are bigger more pressing issues (namely Ogerpon W and Kyurem depending on how the council wants to handle that situation).

tiering is supposed to be independent of other conditions, so if pecha is problematic, then it gets acted upon even if there's other mons that are more so

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hi folks, we're still discussing the recent survey results and are considering action in the nearish future, but there is something we didn't cover on the survey and as a result it got tons of write-ins. If you've been following SPL at all you've likely seen the dominance of Pecharunt, and the council has been questioning whether or not its metagame impact is positive.


Pech's bag of tricks is simple but extremely effective - its just-perfect Speed tier, mammoth physical bulk and, most importantly, combination of Malignant Chain & Poison Puppeteer make it a complete nightmare to switch into. In addition to this, the combo of instant recovery & Parting Shot makes it really tough to wear Pecharunt down; few things threaten it, outspeed it, and switch into it, so it can essentially always get a free Parting Shot off to enable a teammate an easier pivot. With the SV OU landscape having few Poison-immune Pokemon, Pecharunt's Malignant Chain + Hex combination can be a real nightmare to switch into; it doesn't do much damage to stuff like Ting-Lu but they get worn down fast by Toxic poison, and typical absorbers like Gholdengo and Gliscor take a decent amount from Hex, so switching into the runt is tough despite low SpA. However, it's the ability that really drives it over the edge.

We've all seen it by now; Pecharunt switches in on Great Tusk's Headlong Rush and somehow still proceeds to win the 1v1 all because it got a toxic -> selfhit -> Recover spam. Or it manages to get through a Ting-Lu, or a Hisuian Samurott, or something else with a high power STAB move that it has no business beating. It's infuriating to be on the other side of.

Of course there are options to limit it; Iron Treads is a spinner capable of annoying it, weakening the PechLu core. There are status absorbers that don't care much about what it does like Garganacl, and of course it's Kingambit food - but Parting Shot is a real pain for these guys, and Pecharunt has a habit of outlasting them if it doesn't get sacked to a Headlong Rush off the rip. It can also have trouble against Galarian Slowking, but that's a Pokemon Pecharunt has nearly pushed out of the metagame at this point, because what makes Pech so frustrating is just how valuable it is defensively.

It checks the DDers, it checks Zamazenta, it checks Valiant, it checks Ogerpon, it checks Cinderace, the thing 1v1s Tusk and Lu, and with Tera there's basically no physical attacker it can't beat. That's a huge amount of role compression! It's no wonder the best players are so eager to build with it, but that only magnifies the issue of Pecharunt Roulette.

Basically, it comes down to this. The Toxic + Confusion combination is super frustrating for basically everything and having games dictated on whether or not Pecharunt manages to make it happen is something we're not sure is desirable. It's hardly an RNG matchup fish, since it's very bulky and pretty fast and gets plenty of opportunities to click the move, but it's still a major nuisance. We're not looking into any action yet but want to gauge the community's pulse on it. Thanks!

so which one of y'all lost to it

i don't think pecharunt is broken. what i do think, though, is that pecharunt is objectively and unequivocally uncompetitive. the comparisons to dpp machamp are apt, but malignant chain has an additional coin-flip rng roll to proc the status in the first place. in theory this is better for the target than a 100% chance, but in practice it's just another level of rng that's taking skill away from both sides. now not all confusion moves are automatically a big deal, but when combined with malignant chain's high power, perfect accuracy, exactly 50/50 proc chance, and the fact that you have to also deal with toxic damage while all this other fuckery is going on, it starts to cause some issues. removing malignant chain as a move wouldn't help much either, even if it wasn't against policy—everyone would just switch to sludge bomb then we'd still have the same problem but on a marginally smaller scale. removing pecharunt itself would be the only way to truly solve its uncompetitiveness issue

however, i don't think this should be our focus at the moment. there are other, vastly worse threats plaguing the meta right now. definitely keep it in strong consideration for a future suspect if support for it persists, because it takes a lot of skill out of things and that's very bad from a tiering perspective, but right now we need to have other priorities in mind. pecharunt's rng is nasty but can ultimately be mitigated pretty easily—malignant chain being such a cheap click but only having 8 pp means it's easily pp-stallable, two entire types are immune to its bullshit, you can just switch out, etc. i think this might just be another case of people crying about ting-lu + [other mon] cores instead of learning to play around them

 

[Drifting]

Even if you blindly accept the (faulty) premise that RNG = uncompetitiveness, Pecharunt is hardly more uncompetitive than the average Scald mon, and the Machamp comparisons are pretty absurd considering Pecharunt's far lesser power, the far lower probability of getting haxed and the far more practical Malignant Chain counterplay with Steel/Poison-types. We can see simply by usage/winrate/viability that the mon isn't really overwhelming enough to be banned imo. Great Tusk has been #1 in the tier for it's entire duration barring banned pokemon (my opinion) and since many spinblockers are flipping a coin whenever they come into Tusk it's nice to have another strong spinblocking option so hazards can feel more reliable on bulkier structures, even if Cinderace and U-Turn Corv are still super annoying to maintain hazards against. I think this suspect would be unsuccessful if it was tried.

 

[Seronius]

I think OU is in a weird place right now. The council has an obligation to constantly try to make the tier better but they don't really know what to do to make the tier better so it kinda feels like they are grasping at straws. The kyurem ban then unbanning set the tier back 6-8 months. Now the tiering is very reactionary.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I think OU is in a weird place right now. The council has an obligation to constantly try to make the tier better but they don't really know what to do to make the tier better so it kinda feels like they are grasping at straws. The kyurem ban then unbanning set the tier back 6-8 months. Now the tiering is very reactionary.

was on a quick 5 min break from working on stuff and saw this but I'll reply to other posts tomorrow when i have a chance

I'd argue the meta has settled at least for as much as a meta can with Tera, obviously a settled meta doesn't inherently mean anything but weird feels pretty subjective and while this is a 'subjective' thread the point is to add reasoning behind the opinions. While SV OU is a hot topic, these types of post saying x is bad, putting forth no basis for why you think this, and then blaming council for it again with no basis, does not help at all. Also I don't really think the Kyurem ban set the tier back, and this is someone who voted ban on Kyurem and still wants to ban it. You can't really set back a tier unless you unban something extremely stupid, no bans at worst in 99% cases just stagnates the tier if anything at all. People almost always figure out ways to deal with borderline Pokemon. I think the meta settling roughly and finding more ways to manage Kyurem as we have seen now is proof of this, although again I do think Kyurem and a few others need a ban due to threat saturation but that's a whole different topic that's mostly not relevant to pecharunt. Also regarding 'reactionary tiering' I mean yeah that's how tiering is done, you can't figure out what a problem is until it's a problem. Council acting on surveys are ways that they can catch POTENTIAL problems faster for example, it may seem reactionary but I see it moreso precautionary to discuss Pecharunt before it can possibly get more out of hand

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Hi, I’d like to make this post in defense of Pecharunt in OU.

Why Do We Ban Things?

Tiering policy focuses on three factors when banning a Pokemon from a tier. To quote shiloh's post (which seemingly serves as the most modern version of the tiering policy framework), we ban something when it is deemed to either be:

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.

Is Pecharunt Uncompetitive?

In my opinion, the answer to this is no. Let's first detail what makes Pecharunt "uncompetitive" in the eyes of those against it:

also machamp wasnt rly a staple of the tier, pecharunt is a massive defensive check to everything and also beats arguably the #1 in the tier harder than everything else ever. it also fucks up tusk tryna spin. pecharunt is a defensive staple that also has RNG bullshit.

i don't think pecharunt is broken. what i do think, though, is that pecharunt is objectively and unequivocally uncompetitive. the comparisons to dpp machamp are apt, but malignant chain has an additional coin-flip rng roll to proc the status in the first place. in theory this is better for the target than a 100% chance, but in practice it's just another level of rng that's taking skill away from both sides. now not all confusion moves are automatically a big deal, but when combined with malignant chain's high power, perfect accuracy, exactly 50/50 proc chance, and the fact that you have to also deal with toxic damage while all this other fuckery is going on, it starts to cause some issues.

Firstly, one thing that both of these arguments posit is the fact that Pecharunt as a Pokemon itself or Malignant Chain as a move itself is uncompetitive not because of its confusion or Toxic chance alone, but because the move itself is good enough to where the secondary RNG effect comes into play.

The problem with this argument lies in its foundation. For a move to have its secondary effect to matter due to it being "good enough", it must be seen in a good portion of the metagame to actually impact many players' experiences instead of being isolated events. This means that to make this argument, one must prove that Pecharunt itself is broken or prevalent enough to the level where it can cause its signature move to be "good enough" and seen enough to make it uncompetitive due to its RNG elements.

Leaving that aside, though, both of these arguments rest on the fact that Malignant Chain and Poison Puppeteer cause RNG that causes "more skillful play" to be "almost always rendered irrelevant". But is that really the case? Malignant Chain itself has only 8 PP - easily stallable in a long, drawn-out game, and without Malignant Chain Pecharunt is not going to be able to activate its ability or do any of the RNG-reliant things that are detailed in Lily's post. In addition, Malignant Chain is what Pecharunt is going to be clicking on most of the things it checks aside from Parting Shot - you can go to a Gholdengo or Kingambit to stuff it, or just stay in with a Ting-Lu and pray you don't get proc'ed this time while you set up another layer of Spikes. Malignant Chain poison procs punish greedy attempts to seize the advantage, not "more skillful play".

Is Pecharunt Broken?

I think we can all agree Pecharunt isn't broken in tiering policy terms - if someone brings up that argument, I'll edit this bit.

Is Pecharunt Unhealthy?

Pecharunt's detractors often acknowledge the defensive utility it brings to the tier, but also say that it enables threats to a unique extent. This simply doesn't make sense as a reason for why Pecharunt should be banned.

We've seen good pivots before. Glowking pre-Pecharunt's rise comes to mind, and so does Lando. Pecharunt does not do anything to pivot outside of what these two do. A crucial reason why Pecharunt is being seen as more broken as a pivot is due to what it pivots in - it brings in the broken offensive threats in the tier due to what teams it is found on. That's what skews its perception.

Parting Shot is also being far overblown in how it affects Pecharunt's viability and uncompetitiveness. I had a similar conversation in the OU Discord server, so I'll just paste my response here:

Indeed, if Parting Shot is such an issue due to the fact that it keeps momentum for Pecharunt while bringing in one of the myriad of offensive threats in the tier, the threats that are so broken that they can win just by coming in once should be investigated, not Pecharunt.

Overall, Pecharunt is neither uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy - therefore, considering it fits none of the criteria needed to ban a Pokemon, Pecharunt should stay unbanned.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I'll make a more in depth post soon (probably), but as a quick aside, I am of the opinion of this:

You shouldn't lose any sleep banning a Pokemon (or move/ability) who's core competitive use cases involves a non negligible amount of luck. The only real excuse as to why you would advocate for it is if it's integral to the metagames balance to a high degree (DPP Jirachi). By my own arbitrary definition Pecharunt is the former, and isn't integral so I stand to say...why care if it's gone if it being gone leads to an overall effect of more competitive matches?

I say this as hax squad creator, the guy who popularized sand veil chomp in gen 8 OU tours...hax is bad for da game : ((

 

[Seronius]

was on a quick 5 min break from working on stuff and saw this but I'll reply to other posts tomorrow when i have a chance

I'd argue the meta has settled at least for as much as a meta can with Tera, obviously a settled meta doesn't inherently mean anything but weird feels pretty subjective and while this is a 'subjective' thread the point is to add reasoning behind the opinions. While SV OU is a hot topic, these types of post saying x is bad, putting forth no basis for why you think this, and then blaming council for it again with no basis, does not help at all. Also I don't really think the Kyurem ban set the tier back, and this is someone who voted ban on Kyurem and still wants to ban it. You can't really set back a tier unless you unban something extremely stupid, no bans at worst in 99% cases just stagnates the tier if anything at all. People almost always figure out ways to deal with borderline Pokemon. I think the meta settling roughly and finding more ways to manage Kyurem as we have seen now is proof of this, although again I do think Kyurem and a few others need a ban due to threat saturation but that's a whole different topic that's mostly not relevant to pecharunt. Also regarding 'reactionary tiering' I mean yeah that's how tiering is done, you can't figure out what a problem is until it's a problem. Council acting on surveys are ways that they can catch POTENTIAL problems faster for example, it may seem reactionary but I see it moreso precautionary to discuss Pecharunt before it can possibly get more out of hand

I agree with almost everything u said so let me elaborate on my take. The tier is set back because a mon (Kyurem) that should probably be banned is not banned. So now u have to go around that mon and try to make the tier better because u can't retest or ban it so soon after the test. I do believe the tier is settled but the council has to try to make the tier better so they gotta latch on to mons who have a slight edge or quirk on the competition

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I'll make a more in depth post soon (probably), but as a quick aside, I am of the opinion of this:

You shouldn't lose any sleep banning a Pokemon (or move/ability) who's core competitive use cases involves a non negligible amount of luck. The only real excuse as to why you would advocate for it is if it's integral to the metagames balance to a high degree (DPP Jirachi). By my own arbitrary definition Pecharunt is the former, and isn't integral so I stand to say...why care if it's gone if it being gone leads to an overall effect of more competitive matches?

If something is providing a positive effect, whatever that effect is, to a certain metagame, the ban side must prove that the negative effect of that thing is greater than its positive effect to deem it unhealthy and get it removed from the metagame. If it can be proven that Pecharunt's Malignant Chain can indeed be played around and is not uncompetitive, would that not be the main reason it is "causing a negative effect on the metagame" removed?

 

[JackRG]

Hi folks, we're still discussing the recent survey results and are considering action in the nearish future, but there is something we didn't cover on the survey and as a result it got tons of write-ins. If you've been following SPL at all you've likely seen the dominance of Pecharunt, and the council has been questioning whether or not its metagame impact is positive.


Pech's bag of tricks is simple but extremely effective - its just-perfect Speed tier, mammoth physical bulk and, most importantly, combination of Malignant Chain & Poison Puppeteer make it a complete nightmare to switch into. In addition to this, the combo of instant recovery & Parting Shot makes it really tough to wear Pecharunt down; few things threaten it, outspeed it, and switch into it, so it can essentially always get a free Parting Shot off to enable a teammate an easier pivot. With the SV OU landscape having few Poison-immune Pokemon, Pecharunt's Malignant Chain + Hex combination can be a real nightmare to switch into; it doesn't do much damage to stuff like Ting-Lu but they get worn down fast by Toxic poison, and typical absorbers like Gholdengo and Gliscor take a decent amount from Hex, so switching into the runt is tough despite low SpA. However, it's the ability that really drives it over the edge.

We've all seen it by now; Pecharunt switches in on Great Tusk's Headlong Rush and somehow still proceeds to win the 1v1 all because it got a toxic -> selfhit -> Recover spam. Or it manages to get through a Ting-Lu, or a Hisuian Samurott, or something else with a high power STAB move that it has no business beating. It's infuriating to be on the other side of.

Of course there are options to limit it; Iron Treads is a spinner capable of annoying it, weakening the PechLu core. There are status absorbers that don't care much about what it does like Garganacl, and of course it's Kingambit food - but Parting Shot is a real pain for these guys, and Pecharunt has a habit of outlasting them if it doesn't get sacked to a Headlong Rush off the rip. It can also have trouble against Galarian Slowking, but that's a Pokemon Pecharunt has nearly pushed out of the metagame at this point, because what makes Pech so frustrating is just how valuable it is defensively.

It checks the DDers, it checks Zamazenta, it checks Valiant, it checks Ogerpon, it checks Cinderace, the thing 1v1s Tusk and Lu, and with Tera there's basically no physical attacker it can't beat. That's a huge amount of role compression! It's no wonder the best players are so eager to build with it, but that only magnifies the issue of Pecharunt Roulette.

Basically, it comes down to this. The Toxic + Confusion combination is super frustrating for basically everything and having games dictated on whether or not Pecharunt manages to make it happen is something we're not sure is desirable. It's hardly an RNG matchup fish, since it's very bulky and pretty fast and gets plenty of opportunities to click the move, but it's still a major nuisance. We're not looking into any action yet but want to gauge the community's pulse on it. Thanks!

Have you guys heard of steel types? It is Feburary 1st, not April 1st.

 

[veti]

Pecharunt robs games, but it doesn't rob games enough to warrant a ban. Eliminating pecharunt will also just lead to the resurgence of Galarian Slowking and its even more obnoxious Twave+Ice Beam robbing games, and without banning many elements of the game than Pecharunt we won't be cutting down on uncompetitiveness much. OU also has plenty of Poison immune Pokemon from natural Poison types, Steels, Garganacl, Tera Normal Gliscor, and the very common and good Tera Poison half the metagame. Pecharunts 1 time confusion procs combined with confusion being a volatile status condition also lessens the impact of confusion over the course of games.

Paralysis, Kyurem, Iron Head, Dark Pulse, Ivy Cudgel, Flame Body, and Quick Claw are all either about as uncompetitive or more uncompetitive than Pecharunt and generally considered to be fine in the metagame despite robbing games through rng, Pecharunt is similarly fine in the metagame despite robbing games through rng.

 

[RainebowValiant]

tbh i rly dont think pecharunt is horrendously broken (if at all tbh) if that wasnt clear in my original post but i do think it being gone would make the metagame a better place for all :3 (toxapex) and that it's legitimately kinda uncompetitive. the meta will be fine without pecha as we know because it basically just joined the meta. its just a guy thats here now and either we say fuck off or we dont and i dont rly give a shit either way cuz like whatever the metagame is already fine

 

[hormonal teenager]

Hot/weird take:

Anything that improves Great Tusk's viability will improve this tier. Role compression is super valuable in SV and I understand why some players want to keep Pecharunt in the tier for it's ability to check so many things on the physical side. But if that comes at the cost of enabling degenerate Ting-Lu/Pecha hstacks that force teams to spam boots or run double removal, then I think it's a net negative effect on the tier. Yes we have Sinistcha, Balloon Ghold, and Dragapult but Sinistcha is much easier to exploit and Ghold/Tusk cannot repeatedly switch into Tusk's attacks.

Being able to actually rely on Tusk to remove hazards would improve this tier far more than anything pecharunt does.

okay, how about just banning everything that has a base stat total higher than 350 that isn't Great Tusk, then?

(edit) this is obviously a joke, but I've already made a post hinting at the fact that there are so many mons currently banned in the game that it already started a domino effect on the OU tier.

the metagame pre-dlc was ridiculously overcentralized around Great Tusk, which I am willing to argue that is not a good thing.
Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

the mon has hazards, removal, and ghold, which would be an obvious check to hazard removal, doesn't really wall it given the combination of Knock+ground-type stab, usually headlong rush, but could also be EQ on a more defensive set.

the fact that this mon peaked at (correct me if I'm wrong) a 76% usage rate pre-DLC should've warranted a ban. and at that point, ghold could've gone away as well. or maybe the earlier checks the mon had shouldn't have been banned to begin with.

 

[Lily]

Have you guys heard of steel types? It is Feburary 1st, not April 1st.

Yes, they're listed in the post you quoted. I suggest you read it rather than be purely reactionary, so you can make a constructive post like everyone else has.

I'll remind you and others about this post, as it similarly applies to this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-info-and-announcements.3710769/post-10423215

Don't be an ass.

Appreciate all the feedback on both ends so far, thanks everyone :)

 

[RainWaiv]

yall will do anything except try kyurem retest #3 smh

No joke though I don't think pecharunt is that bad. Sure, it's gameplan is a bit annoying but it struggles enough with common mons like darkrai or ghold (assuming earth power obviously), hamu can click ceaseless into it which makes it a bad matchup by default, and it quite literally does nothing into kingambit. Getting fucked over by confusion does suck a lot and it is really uncompetitive so it's a toss-up on my end and it's pretty new to the metagame so I'd have to play more to see how it goes.

 

[WohMi]

I feel like a Pecharunt test would be poor to consider right now. Pecharunt is good, sure - but banworthy? Absolutely not. On the contrary, Pecharunt is key to checking a lot of wacky B.S. running around in the metagame (notably the Shield Dog). With how many Dark & Ground moves are running around the metagame right now, Pecharunt is definitely not hard to hit, and 88 speed is "good," but significantly slower than pretty much the rest of the entire offensive metagame, save for Tusk (LOL).
As for the RNG truthers... It is unfortunate, but Pokemon is not a game solely based on skill. Sometimes I am going to freeze you with my Darkrai, sometimes you will get 0 SpA raises off of Fiery Dance Moth, and sometimes I am going to Poison you with my Pecharunt, and you'll hit yourself in the confusion.

 

[AerionT]

I don't have much to add except that the comparison to DPP Machamp is very unsuitable. Confusion is a nerfed mechanic, and when Pecharunt uses Malignant Chain it has a 16.67% of incapacitating you next turn, compared to Machamp's 50%. Machamp would get consistently rewarded for clicking Dynamic Punch into its checks to brute force past them, Pecharunt doesn't.

16.67%. Lower than flinch chance, lower than getting full paralysed after opponent clicked Thunder Wave (22.5%). What the f are we doing here? Are we going to ban Hax?