Metagame Views From The Council [ SEE POST 716 ]

[Heatranator]

Roaring Moon is dumb, I honestly wouldn't mind it being suspected.
I correctly predicted a long while ago that if people started experimenting with more then just dd tera flying acro sets, then moon would show its true brokeness. And it kinda is now, as Moon's counterplay is extremely different between sets, and guessing wrong can mean losing a mon or the game outright. Thought it was bulky roost and switched to ID zama? Oops, it tera blast fairy'd and now zama is incredibly low. You thought it was a classic 3A DD set and wanted to para it with your tera ghold? Oops, it tera grounded and because it has roost hex is not doing enough. And the thing is, its difficult to determine the set on preview, as it can reliably fit it onto any team. A veil team could have bulky roost, tera blast fairy or classic DD as they all benefit a lot from it. More standard HO can have any of these as well, they are extremely interchangable on these structures. It however, isn't my first pick for a suspect. But since something needs to be removed to reduce threat diversity, then moon is a good candidate. Doesn't provide anything to the tier besides a sweeper that is difficult to answer.


Gliscor however, I believe is completely fine.
I won't even touch Spikes sets, those I believe are mid outside of stall since you can't fit all the moves you want and thus something will be setting up on you. If you use U-turn to remove that passiveness, then you constrain your moveset even more, meaning you are going to need to drop something valuable such as knock or toxic.
SD sets can be annoying at times, but balance/stall teams can fit answers to it reliably enough in order to out offense it. Stuff like cc tusk, mola+geezing, corv, waterpon, ting lu, latios, hydrapple, tinkaton can all help against gliscor. Yes, it can sometimes beat these teams heavily, but that's what gliscor is meant to do, its a balance breaker. Gliscor also really doesn't want to tera as now it has to take spikes chip, which heavily undercuts its longevity. Balance teams have enough answers to deal with it enough until they can let there offensive pieces sweep. SD scor teams also have issues with dealing with all the threats in the meta, as scor doesn't provide a whole lot against top tier threats such as waterpon, kyurem, kingambit, gholdengo or even raging bolt.

In the Mada vs aesf game, aesf tera'd way too early, Gliscor even at +6 is doing 62% max with knock off (I calced it and I believe pecharunt was max hp max defense), while foul play is 2hit ko'ing it or a tera dark foul play having the potential to OHKO gliscor outright. This meant that tera normal facade, which was the real threat, just cleaned.

In the lax vs Dugza game, tera gliscor just cleaned up a very weakened. Left were a para'd sticky barb gliscor, a half health scizor and a full health enamorus. This doesn't really show glicor being broken I believe, the game was basically over at that point as milotic+skarmory won.

In the Stareal vs Hiko game, for some reason Hiko didn't heal on turn 25. Idk why he didn't, the only thing that was threatening was a prim switch, but a gliscor stay in would have ended the game, as it did. Maybe it was a misplay, maybe it was a giga brain read that went wrong, idk.

In the S1nn0hC0nfirm3d vs pdt game, this is probably the one replay that shows Gliscor being broken. Not much to comment here.

In the laroxyl vs TNunes game, SD Gliscor eventually wins, but the Tnunes had no ways to break the stall team. There was no revealed knock off, tusk was fodder for corv, ghold had no way to beat blissey after tricking its scarf to clod.

In the One Last Kiss vs Ahy Wddicted game, SD Gliscor doesn't do a whole lot. It breaks a bit for both teams, with One Last Kiss being forced to expend chesto berry on zama. But it doesn't matter since dragonite wins (OLK own SD gliscor only really dealt with the ting lu, which still probably would have been beaten).

In the Lily vs Stareal game, SD Gliscor did win, but only after tusk was fully taken care of by corv helm, with the other SD Gliscor answer in Kyurem losing after tera. Ig this shows gliscor being broken, but I'm still unconvinced.

In the Dugza vs Crying game, we have an unfortunate freeze with ice fang on the non ID corv, followed by a tera fairy to take the ivy cudgel. Waterpon still lives and forces gliscor out. Gliscor wins after then, but I feel like a freeze doesn't really count for it.

In the tko vs vk game, Gliscor is pressured immensly the whole game by tusk+keldeo, with an unfortunate crit sealing the game. I do believe garg would have been able to close out the game though. Geezing is at incredibly low health, mola doesn't like taking salt cures and gliscor couldn't do enough damage.

Honestly, from these replays, only really the S1nn0hC0nfrim3d vs pdt game stood out to me as gliscor doing dumb stuff. 2 of the games were won due to hax, 2 of them I believe to be misplays that let gliscor win, 1 game SD scor didn't even clench out the win, 1 it cleaned an incredibly weakened team, and another the SD Gliscor team was always winning even without it since they couldn't break it. The only other game could maybe be the Lily vs Stareal game, but ngl I'm not convinced by that.

 

[Tenebricite]

I support a suspect of both! Bulky setup sweepers - or mons that are able to be bulky setup sweepers - with excellent offensive and utility or defensive options (Gouging Fire and Kyurem are other examples) tend to be the most problematic and I'm happy more mons like these are being considered for suspects.

 

[Clas]

I don't have much to say since I quit playing SVOU since October 2023 outside of rare cases but I do want to say that if a Pokemon (or in this case, two Pokemon) have been looked at for being broken 4 times in the span of a year and 3 months then I think they're probably unhealthy. I might be wrong about it being 4 times but I think that number is accurate.

In the very few cases where I have helped with SVOU building, though, both of these have been hilariously restrictive. Roaring Moon just has no reliable counters from my experience and has an overwhelmingly powerful Knock Off (the best move in SVOU, period) while Gliscor's mixture of Spikes Toxic (ghold is the main enabler of this one, i will admit) and SD Tera Normal feels really bad to try and reasonably answer without resorting to just using offense and attempting to win faster with stuff that beats balance/stall (which is incredibly easy to fit). Again, I try to avoid playing/building current SVOU and so my opinions may be outdated or lacking in reasoning, but knowing how much better the tier can end up if tiering action finally happens makes me have just a little hope.

 

[One Last Kiss]

Tbh it's a shame that the council doesn't have the doors open to retesting this generation mechanic, which isn't even designed for singles formats and has forced us to say goodbye to so many mons that under normal circumstances wouldn't be half as good without the use of said mechanic.

Personally, I love Gliscor and I was glad to have it back after saying goodbye to him in SS, and for it to have to go again just because this mechanic makes it so broken is truly a shame. But I don't think I have to say what everyone already knows, Gliscor is currently a very dominant mon in the meta, having to bring a Skarmory / Corviknigh on every team just to try to counter this guy is not healthy for the meta, getting MUs that you don't even need to think about to achieve victory makes calling him unskill mon not an exaggeration , an action on this guy is more than justified.

Regarding Roaring Moon Im a bit more skeptical, RM is just another Mon that takes advantage of tera / tera blast, just like kyurem dd does, or in the most similar case it would be dragonite, but is Roaring Moon really the problem? Because tbh I see dragonite capable of doing a similar job, it's true it doesn't have booster energy like RM does but it has multiscale and access to roost that gives it free setup against a wide variety of mons, from my point of view this could be just another tera/terablast issues, it probably deserves action on it without a doubt, but I think there's a lot to see here.

 

[veti]

Roaring Moon and especially Gliscor are healthy parts of the metagame that should not be banned.

I first want to highlight the positives that each mon brings. provides invaluable role compression for offense teams, being a great defensive piece that can check mons like Ogerpon, Samurott, Zapdos, Iron Moth without Dazzling Gleam, and most special attackers with Tera while providing a strong Knock Off, both of which help Offense and Hyper Offense keep up with the dominant Balance and Bulky Offense teams. Bulky Roaring Moon is also one of the only sweepers in the metagame that doesn't get completely destroyed by priority. Roaring Moon is also a vital part of Sun which is struggling much more than regular Offense and Hyper Offense, getting rid of it would make sun even worse than it already is and reduce teamstyle diversity. is even more healthy for the meta. The most notable benefits of keeping Gliscor in the meta are that its one of the only mons that can take on Ting-Lu being the best Knock Off absorber in OU, both of which weaken the already really good Hazard Stack teams in a tier that has only Great Tusk and Galarian Weezing for reliable removal. Gliscor is also a very good role compressor, having the Landorus typing while having Knock Off, U-Turn, Hazards, and Toxic all at once.

Roaring Moon and Gliscor are also just not broken in the first place. Both have capability to sweep teams, but I find both have enough splashable checks to be manageable, Roaring Moon is on par with mons like Kingambit and Dragonite, two mons that also aren't broken, in terms of amount+viability of checks while SD Gliscor lacks immediate power, letting a lot of mons wall it and making it highly vulnerable to phasing, and Gliscor is a tera sweeper that hates having to tera while also having plenty of checks, will vote DNB on both as they are healthy parts of the meta.

mods can edit this part out if its too off topic but while I like the meta and wouldn't ban anything, Tera Blast is the option I am least against and would nerf not just Roaring Moon, but also other dumb mons like Kyurem, Dragonite, and Kingambit. Wouldn't vote to ban it, but I wouldn't care if it went and might not even try to get reqs to save it. Roaring Moon without Tera Blast Fairy still keeps its positives to the meta while being significantly more predictable and having a larger checklist.

 

[Joltinjoe]

After playing games around 1800s for the past few months, I can confidently say that roaring moon is the most unhealthy pokemon in SV OU currently. Firstly the tera fly 3 attacks dd set is still as absurd as it was on day 1. I personally think that this set alone is overpowered as it has no true counters, the only way for most teams to beat it is by hitting it repeatedly before picking it off with priority. The fact that priority is usually required to keep it from getting out of hand makes teambuilding very restrictive, however this is not the worst of it. While tera fly dd is the most common set, bulky tera ground and tera fairy with roost also exist and are equally as devastating. These sets are way too good at getting free turns with tera. Most of the games I lose to these alternative variants I felt completely powerless because it is impossible to deduce its set from team preview. The guessing games that you need to play with roaring moon are very uncompetitive. In my opinion It deserves to be banned.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

I don't think there's more to be said about Roaring Moon in SVOU. It contributes nothing to the tier in general, and people who thought that it's an one-trick pony is now surprised that it has more than one /s
A lot of times I just sigh and click forfeit when I see Moon tera Fairy. Shit has almost 0 counter unless you take risk and preserve Gambit to a somehow insane degree to KO it. And that's just for a single mon.
This is what I have already seen with Tera Ground Taunt Moon before. People often overlook the fact that it has far too many buttons that can cripple its checks. I vouch for a ban of Moon.
As for Gliscor, sentiment is the same. Despite winning a couple of games by cheesing with Ice Beam Glowking and Tera Ice Zamn, I still find offensive Gliscor to be a bti too much to deal. By the time you figure that it isn't the classic Toxic Spikes variant, it has already had 1 SD and can always Tera to dodge the incoming ice attack. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't have to either, as it can just switch out, come back and click SD later. Gliscor should be banned too.

 

[LovelyLuna]

The Moo Haunts Me.

Regarding Roaring Moon Im a bit more skeptical, RM is just another Mon that takes advantage of tera / tera blast, just like kyurem dd does, or in the most similar case it would be dragonite, but is Roaring Moon really the problem? Because tbh I see dragonite capable of doing a similar job, it's true it doesn't have booster energy like RM does but it has multiscale and access to roost that gives it free setup against a wide variety of mons, from my point of view this could be just another tera/terablast issues, it probably deserves action on it without a doubt, but I think there's a lot to see here.

Tbh I think the #1 seller is Taunt, give a Pokemon with its versatiity Taunt and it becomes a lot more broken. Almost all of the DD 3A checks are set up fodder for Taunt, most notably Pokemon like Ting-Lu, ID Corviknight, Moltres, and even Tinkaton. The speed and power vs Dnite are also undeniable factors Id say, makes it so pretty much only priority revenges Roaring Moon and taht gets extremely shaky from Pokemon wiith 5 different Teras.

Roaring Moon and Gliscor are also just not broken in the first place. Both have capability to sweep teams, but I find both have enough splashable checks to be manageable, Roaring Moon is on par with mons like Kingambit and Dragonite, two mons that also aren't broken, in terms of amount+viability of checks while SD Gliscor lacks immediate power, letting a lot of mons wall it and making it highly vulnerable to phasing, and Gliscor is a tera sweeper that hates having to tera while also having plenty of checks, will vote DNB on both as they are healthy parts of the meta.

mods can edit this part out if its too off topic but while I like the meta and wouldn't ban anything, Tera Blast is the option I am least against and would nerf not just Roaring Moon, but also other dumb mons like Kyurem, Dragonite, and Kingambit. Wouldn't vote to ban it, but I wouldn't care if it went and might not even try to get reqs to save it. Roaring Moon without Tera Blast Fairy still keeps its positives to the meta while being significantly more predictable and having a larger checklist.

Can you clarify a bit on what Pokemon you've been using to handle these 2? Ofc primarily Roaring Moon. I definitely feel like I can just bring Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, Moltres, and IDBP Corviknight which check both Kingambit and Dragonite, then you have Zamazenta, Tinkaton, Alomomola to check one of them, and seem far easier to revenge than Roaring Moon. Dragonite can run stuff like Hurricane and Stone Edge to counter a certain check, but definitely doesn't feel as volatile since its beating one maybe 2 checks, which doesn't feel terrible with how easy Dragonite is to answer. Roaring Moon's moves flip match ups a lot more though, Tera Fairy doesn't just own Dragonite, it can still beat Ting-Lu & Great Tusk. Taunt isn't just for Ting-Lu, it also handles Moltres, Tinkaton, and Corviknight. Roost + x tera just helps it set up on a majority of its 'checks'. Zamazenta & Dragonite (Tera Fairy), Great Tusk (Tera Bug), Dragonite and IDBP Corviknight (Tera Ghost), Moltres (Tera Fire), and probably some more I've missed. Think of it as a big venn diagram of Roaring Moon checks but they cover less than half of the diagrams open

As for the talks about Gliscor, a Corviknight/Skarmory on every team is a huge stretch, while others seem to pretend defensive counterplay just doesn't exist. Foul Play Pecharunt also destroys this, Facade + Knock Off is walled by Kingambit, its vulnerable to phazing and becomes weak to every hazard if it wants to do real damage. Ghost-types in general abuse pretty well, the bulkier ones like Sinistcha and Gholdengo often eating Knock Off and setting up themselves. It'd be dishonest to ignore the more unique Gliscor sets that try to deal with these issues but I don't think we have enough in the replays to say much on it. In the replays which used EQ Gliscor;

tko vs vk
vk's Garg was unfortunately crit in the endgame. But even then I'd say this doesn't show Gliscor being broken, it didn't just cheat and sweep after coming in at a good time, it won the game after the Keldeo, Zapdos, and even Great Tusk were dead, this is just like using any other sweeper.

One Last Kiss vs Ahy Wddicted
This game also treated Gliscor as a regular sweeper/breaker, it didn't do much to call it broken or urgently needing action, at least in comparison to many threats in SVOU.

DugZa vs Crying
Freeze moment, I daresay Gliscor doesn't even look that broken here, since it only took out a Pokemon with a Freeze + severely damage Ogerpon before being forced out, then coming back to do an effortless clean.

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d vs pdt
This is the best replay for Gliscor being broken and the one that convinces me the most. Feels like you can point towards it like other inconsistent sweepers though. Teams cant handle every offensive threat and will be weak to some, and this team did not look like it had a SD Gliscor check besides Kingambit as an afterthought. You can try and say banning Gliscor is the first step to solving this but I'd absolutely look at less healthy contentious presences first. Gliscor provides a lot of value to the tier as a Knock absorber keeping bulkier styles afloat and as a blanket check to a handful of annoying Pokemon. If there's another path we can take to solve the problem with Gliscor, it should be taken imo. If things still don't work out at a later time and SD EQ sets are represented better, I'll be able to have a more confident opinion on Gliscor.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I first want to highlight the positives that each mon brings. provides invaluable role compression for offense teams, being a great defensive piece that can check mons like Ogerpon, Samurott, Zapdos, Iron Moth without Dazzling Gleam, and most special attackers with Tera while providing a strong Knock Off, both of which help Offense and Hyper Offense keep up with the dominant Balance and Bulky Offense teams

While this is half true (Moon is not going to be your Zapdos in or check unless an emergency lmfao) it's ignoring that HO/Offense/BO's that are where Roaring Moon is typically used, *already* have natural answers to these said Pokemon. For example HO/BO with Zamazenta/Pecharunt for Ogerpon or how about Zamazenta/Kyurem/Primarina for Samurott, or Raging Bolt/Ting-Lu/Gliscor etc. HO and BO are not super pressed for slots against basic offensive threats because they have the natural bulk already thanks to SV powercreep along with the speed control to back it up. Also the game is not being dominated by balance, HO teams have made quite a resurgence as of recent with Araquanid Webs and Veil HO's along with standard Deo-S HO's proving to be more troublesome given the current meta compared to the past. Right now BO and Offense is generally the best with HO and Balance trailing behind but not too far, and removing Roaring Moon would not break any of the balancing of the viability between playstyles as BO, Offense, and HO have so many tools to choose from for whatever they need. In regards to strong Knock Off there's still plenty of very VERY good Knock Off users on BO and while less so on Offense/HO they don't really care about having Knock Off as much since they yknow just break through fats with options like Psyshock Gholdengo (which atleast forces tera in most situations), Manaphy, CM Booster Bolt SD Glisc on Veils etc. It's overwhelmingly clear that Roaring Moon is not the straw that will break the camels back for BO/Offense/HO.

As a side note to this first point, even if this where fully true contextually you have to weigh the negatives over the positives. In this case Roaring Moon is incredibly straining on teambuilder due to the variety of sets it has and need for few turns to get going making it able to be a threat almost always regardless of positioning besides gamestates where you are already about to win which do not matter for the sake of argument. In addition it's not always clear what the set exactly is even with context of teammates sets, this is moreso a problem of SV in general but with Roaring Moon it's even more evident besides on Webs teams where its going to always be Adamant Bulky. This 'effective randomness' and difficulty to position against in actual gameplay along with the raw effectiveness of each set is very problematic in my opinion, and while Roaring Moon isn't broken in a vacuum you have to remember there's literally 5/6 other Pokemon just as good if not better than Roaring Moon at what it does + Tera LOL.

Bulky Roaring Moon is also one of the only sweepers in the metagame that doesn't get completely destroyed by priority. Roaring Moon is also a vital part of Sun which is struggling much more than regular Offense and Hyper Offense, getting rid of it would make sun even worse than it already is and reduce teamstyle

How exactly is being good into priority as a top tier sweeper, a net positive for the metagame?? Having more options to mitigate very potent threats is better for the health of the game, you can very easily argue objectively that Roaring Moon being good into priority forces you to over emphasis slots to answer Roaring Moon since you can't rely on general options like Priority moves for anti-setup ? Sun struggling has less to do with Roaring Moon and more to do with the other offensive playstyles just being more consistent and having more option for variety than Sun. Sun is pressed for slots and has the issue of abusers being so good at sun that there is no real room for other options besides in Tournament where prepping and using a not usually used on sun Pokemon could work but again that's hyper specific and not indicative of the general metagame. HO Offense and BO (since sun acts very similar to BO in a lot of ways) just have more variety which allows them to cover more of the metagame along with being innovated more often bringing more people to use said playstyles over Sun, its not that sun is trash or anything it's just a very limiting playstyle much like Trick Room or Rain in prior generations. I would less care about the usage of these niche playstyles and moreso care about the quality of the playstyles and Sun is just alright, there's been recent pushes in fact with Ninetales and it's definitely helped the playstyle. On the contrary Rain functionally is bad straight up, and I don't think you can say the same for Sun at all, just as a comparison of what an actually bad niche playstyle is and feels like.

Roaring Moon and Gliscor are also just not broken in the first place. Both have capability to sweep teams, but I find both have enough splashable checks to be manageable, Roaring Moon is on par with mons like Kingambit and Dragonite, two mons that also aren't broken

I'll only speak on Roaring Moon since Gliscor is a more complex topic but don't worry he should be banned too, but as for Roaring Moon I don't think you are understanding the many different forms a Pokemon can be "broken". There's roughly 3 ways, the #1 way being 'definitively broken' where a Pokemon setup sweeps and reliably wins or OHKO's majority of the tier (the "OHKO's" variant is more dependent on speed tier of course, for example Hoopa-U's 80 Speed in ORAS was problematic enough). The #2 way being negative or unhealthy impacts on the metagame, this is more vague but very understandable in gameplay. Stuff like Metagross-Mega in gen 7 or Cinderace in gen 8 where they have answers that are definitely available but you end up over emphasizing how to manage the threat and it warps the game in an unhealthy way in the builder, and oftentimes in gameplay the prep you did in builder may not be enough either due to the threatening Pokemons ally slots supporting it, and or the set variety the threatening Pokemon has. Sound familiar? Anyways the third and final is competitiveness, this is self explanatory: Shadow Tag, Evasion (ban acupressure Finchinator ), even Sleep. Anyways Roaring Moon cleanly falls into #2 where sure there are answers to it but those answers don't come for free and even worse in this instance are very set dependant. Corviknight is not beating Taunt Roaring Moon since Corviknight Swaps in on Dragon Dance and then gets Taunted for example. I don't think I have to explain why Roaring Moons 10 million different sets all beat x things that are 'checks' to it, I think just by gameplay alone you should know or at least have witnessed it. Also the checks aren't splashable, there is nothing splashable in SV by nature of Tera because Tera gives way to too many uncoverable sets and so using any slot is very important even if it's a Pokemon like Kingambit or Zamazenta, there is no 'free slot' in this gen like past ones due to the magnitude of threats the game has to offer. Even if there are splashable 'checks' it does not change the former problems of having to use multiple of them to cover a few of Roaring Moons many viable sets, and that's again not including ally slots that in gameplay WILL mess with your Moon counter play in some way (assuming you have any to begin with :skull:).

EDIT: Regarding the 'Roaring Moon helps Sun' point by Veti; keeping or banning a mon to help a playstyle is not a real thing tiering policy wise, it isn't accounted for and shouldn't be accounted for either (with the sole caveat of an overall playstyle that's causing the metagame to be unhealthy, but a overall playstyle being a problem for a tier is extremely rare beyond stuff like UU Stall in 7 iirc where they banned quag to nerf stall I may be misremembering the gen this happened though).
When analyzing if a Pokemon is too much for a tier you understand the negatives the Pokemon has and the positives it has on the GENERAL metagame, a Pokemon being banned to buff stall for example isn't an actual point of contention. Sure Pokemon bans do effect the viability of playstyles but does it help the metagame to become more competitive or healthy is the question and not, muh sun viability. When you talk about the positives of a Pokemon it should be what it does the general game as a whole rather than "well if you get rid of this then sun gets worse", yeah no shit, if you ban a mon some playstyles get worse we don't go 'lets buff stall this month' (this is an example) instead we go 'is Roaring Moon an unhealthy presence overall.

 

[Dugtrio Is Broken]

If gliscor and rmoon left the tier, pecharunt would become significantly stronger. That could be annoying since pecharunt is already pretty frustrating, but on the other hand, it might be a good thing, more pecharunt means less zama. However:

• More Pecharunt means less Zamazenta.
• Less Zamazenta means more Kingambit.
• More Kingambit means more Great Tusk.
• More Great Tusk means less Pecharunt.
• Less Pecharunt means more Zamazenta.

We're entering an endless cycle, just leave rmoon and gliscor in the tier so it doesn’t turn into a snowball effect, lmao.

 

[LovelyLuna]

If gliscor and rmoon left the tier, pecharunt would become significantly stronger. That could be annoying since pecharunt is already pretty frustrating, but on the other hand, it might be a good thing, more pecharunt means less zama. However:

• More Pecharunt means less Zamazenta.
• Less Zamazenta means more Kingambit.
• More Kingambit means more Great Tusk.
• More Great Tusk means less Pecharunt.
• Less Pecharunt means more Zamazenta.

We're entering an endless cycle, just leave rmoon and gliscor in the tier so it doesn’t turn into a snowball effect, lmao.

Or it can stay the same way? Zamazenta usage doesn't drop because of Kingambit's prominent presence, but it doesn't skyrocket because of Pecharunt being a core Pokemon in the tier. I don't get if you're trolling or not but does not seem like an argument to keep something potentially broken in the tier.

 

[Dugtrio Is Broken]

Or it can stay the same way? Zamazenta usage doesn't drop because of Kingambit's prominent presence, but it doesn't skyrocket because of Pecharunt being a core Pokemon in the tier. I don't get if you're trolling or not but does not seem like an argument to keep something potentially broken in the tier.

What i said is just a joke, however, my opinion is really that i prefer to keep both in the tier rather than change the meta again. I've always found gliscor very annoying and wanted to ban it, i even voted for a ban in the suspect, but in the current meta, it’s more commonly used with sd, so it’s more fun.

As for rmoon, im more doubtful. I don't think a standard rmoon is that broken, but its bulky sets or ones with tblast have the potential to win a game on their own.

If the suspects happen, i’ll probably vote for dnb scor, and im still undecided about rmoon. It wasn’t that common with tblast before the spl, so it could either become broken, or the meta could adapt quickly.

I remember in last year’s wcop i saw a bizarre set and thought it would become common since it beat zama and corviknight, but in reality, it was just a momentary thing. maybe fairy tblast will be the same, but still, bulky moon is still annoying.

Set:

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 152 HP / 136 Atk / 108 Def / 4 SpD / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Dragon Tail

 

[Shaymin Sky]

If gliscor and rmoon left the tier, pecharunt would become significantly stronger. That could be annoying since pecharunt is already pretty frustrating, but on the other hand, it might be a good thing, more pecharunt means less zama. However:

• More Pecharunt means less Zamazenta.
• Less Zamazenta means more Kingambit.
• More Kingambit means more Great Tusk.
• More Great Tusk means less Pecharunt.
• Less Pecharunt means more Zamazenta.

We're entering an endless cycle, just leave rmoon and gliscor in the tier so it doesn’t turn into a snowball effect, lmao.

I was gonna respond with a full paragraph and I realized at the last sentence Tera-ing out of checks exist so I'm just gonna leave this right here

 

[Finchinator]

Roaring Moon and especially Gliscor are healthy parts of the metagame that should not be banned.

I first want to highlight the positives that each mon brings. provides invaluable role compression for offense teams, being a great defensive piece that can check mons like Ogerpon, Samurott, Zapdos, Iron Moth without Dazzling Gleam, and most special attackers with Tera while providing a strong Knock Off, both of which help Offense and Hyper Offense keep up with the dominant Balance and Bulky Offense teams. Bulky Roaring Moon is also one of the only sweepers in the metagame that doesn't get completely destroyed by priority. Roaring Moon is also a vital part of Sun which is struggling much more than regular Offense and Hyper Offense, getting rid of it would make sun even worse than it already is and reduce teamstyle diversity. is even more healthy for the meta. The most notable benefits of keeping Gliscor in the meta are that its one of the only mons that can take on Ting-Lu being the best Knock Off absorber in OU, both of which weaken the already really good Hazard Stack teams in a tier that has only Great Tusk and Galarian Weezing for reliable removal. Gliscor is also a very good role compressor, having the Landorus typing while having Knock Off, U-Turn, Hazards, and Toxic all at once.

Roaring Moon and Gliscor are also just not broken in the first place. Both have capability to sweep teams, but I find both have enough splashable checks to be manageable, Roaring Moon is on par with mons like Kingambit and Dragonite, two mons that also aren't broken, in terms of amount+viability of checks while SD Gliscor lacks immediate power, letting a lot of mons wall it and making it highly vulnerable to phasing, and Gliscor is a tera sweeper that hates having to tera while also having plenty of checks, will vote DNB on both as they are healthy parts of the meta.

mods can edit this part out if its too off topic but while I like the meta and wouldn't ban anything, Tera Blast is the option I am least against and would nerf not just Roaring Moon, but also other dumb mons like Kyurem, Dragonite, and Kingambit. Wouldn't vote to ban it, but I wouldn't care if it went and might not even try to get reqs to save it. Roaring Moon without Tera Blast Fairy still keeps its positives to the meta while being significantly more predictable and having a larger checklist.

You did not mention a single form of counterplay towards Roaring Moon in this entire post and hardly did for Gliscor. You claim both Pokemon have “enough splashable checks”, but quite literally mention nothing. I kept reading thinking “oh it’ll be addressed here” a few times and then it just…never came up.

We don’t tier just because you think Roaring Moon checks Ogerpon (it doesn’t) or keeps Sun viable (Sun is fine regardless, but irrelevant) it has to stay in the tier. We tier to make sure there are actual checks and counters to things. Otherwise, we would have kept anything with any defensive value in OU regardless of how broken it is. This post shows a misunderstanding of that.

 

[Insolence]

Roaring Moon currently reminds me of the whole Darkrai furor during last WCOP. Darkrai was not broken, but the metagame trends at the time incentivized its usage to the point where some viewed it as a problematic element of the tier. Nobody is calling for a rai ban anymore as the 'mon is clearly not broken.

The same is currently happening with Moon. Zama/Tusk/Pech/Lu/Nite are omnipresent in both ladder and tours with high usage and certain Moon sets feast on these types of teams. It is no coincidence that the tera blast fairy set is the only one with absurd winrate in SPL while the tera flying and bulky ground sets do not even break 50%. In fact Moon's winrate and usage stats in SPL are lower than both Gambit and Scor.

While Moon clearly has a lot of set variety (and it can be difficult to discern exactly what set the Moon is from team preview), this is not an issue with Moon alone. There are Tusk, Zama, Gambit, Bolt, or Val sets that can just as easily flip matchups against their counters if they have Tera available. Moon does not have the bulk or typing of Gouge which allowed it to effortlessly shrug off physical attacks and status while setting up. I bring up this point because I have seen a lot of discussion about how "every team loses to a single moon set", which is not a convincing argument to me as long as you have your own tera to match theirs. Moon cannot run all of eq/taunt/roost/acro/tera blast/outrage on top of dd+knock.

All styles have viable ways of handling Moon in builder and in game. Faster teams typically rely on applying enough pressure that the Moon cannot generate free turns to set up. Speed Boosters outspeed the bulky ground sets and revenge kill, and you can even run Red Card. Bulkier teams have Clefable and Corviknight (both top 20 usage with 60%+ winrate in SPL btw). Geezing can threaten wisp while gas lets it ignore the proto boost. There are also options like helmet alo, tusk, and lando to chip it down. Stall teams obviously hate taunt/knock but any good stall team will have lines to trade HP or sack something to make progress against the moon. I also just don't view mons being able to force progress against fat/stall as a bad thing. This is all not even mentioning tera, fairy is the most popular type in the game and there are plenty of mons that can easily deal with moon with the help of tera (Garg, Ghold, Nite, fp peach, not to mention phasers like roar molt/zama or ww lu). This has all been used in SPL and there's plenty of shiest tech on ladder like band scizor which gives you a fighting chance against it.

Moon is actually a pretty fair sweeper, in that when I lose to it I can look at the replay and typically find turns where I misplayed/gave it enough room to sweep. This is opposed to things like moth fiery dance, pech confusion, static/flame body, and even zama crunch def drops where it can often feel like you made correct plays but got haxed anyway.

Finally, the most dangerous set is definitely the tera fairy one, which is (once again) only a problem due to tera blast. There was limited support for blast on the last survey, but Gliscor got a similar score and Moon was lower on the write-ins than mons like Lu, Pech, and Ghold, yet here we are talking about them. Lurking around on cord I've seen a lot of SPL players talking about how recent developments and some of the cheese that was displayed in SPL has altered their viewpoint towards it. Moon is just the latest of a long series of 'mons we are examining almost entirely due to tera blast, and I think we should probably open the discussion here to include it as well.

 

[Carl The Turtle]

Circling back to the Gliscor arguments discussed in this thread, there is one that really bothers me that it took me a while to put my finger on why.
"You can't tell whether Gliscor is Swords Dance or Utility until it's too late and it's already gotten a free spike/SD because you guessed wrong."
This severely bugs me because it feels like a demonstrable lack of just... paying attention at team preview? Practically every replay listed under the post as a demonstration of the power of SD Scor just has another incredibly obvious spiker, and I feel this extends to ladder and general play as well. I genuinely don't understand how people can say they had no idea it was an SD Gliscor until it was already at +2 when the team they were fighting had a samurott-hisui/ting-lu/lead speedoxys/skarmory being the most blatant tell of all time. SD Facade Knock Gliscor is strong and has its merits for discussion, but I'm tired of everyone acting like it's Schrodinger's sweeper.

 

[CosmicDraco]

Tbh it's a shame that the council doesn't have the doors open to retesting this generation mechanic, which isn't even designed for singles formats and has forced us to say goodbye to so many mons that under normal circumstances wouldn't be half as good without the use of said mechanic.

Personally, I love Gliscor and I was glad to have it back after saying goodbye to him in SS, and for it to have to go again just because this mechanic makes it so broken is truly a shame. But I don't think I have to say what everyone already knows, Gliscor is currently a very dominant mon in the meta, having to bring a Skarmory / Corviknigh on every team just to try to counter this guy is not healthy for the meta, getting MUs that you don't even need to think about to achieve victory makes calling him unskill mon not an exaggeration , an action on this guy is more than justified.

Regarding Roaring Moon Im a bit more skeptical, RM is just another Mon that takes advantage of tera / tera blast, just like kyurem dd does, or in the most similar case it would be dragonite, but is Roaring Moon really the problem? Because tbh I see dragonite capable of doing a similar job, it's true it doesn't have booster energy like RM does but it has multiscale and access to roost that gives it free setup against a wide variety of mons, from my point of view this could be just another tera/terablast issues, it probably deserves action on it without a doubt, but I think there's a lot to see here.

Really Couldn't agree anymore.The Mechanic that's making the Tier Unhealthy is beyond any Suspect.
Anyways, to the topic
My preferences -
Roaring Moon - Shall be Suspected
Gliscor - Action on him should be postpones for the Time Being.
Extra: It would be better to get Moon Sussed and get Banned but Getting Gliscor sussed and Moon unchecked would just Lead to an even Open Moon, who would be obliterating teams without any Gliscor to absorb its knocks.Really, using Checks that just work against a mon(Moon in this case) which isn't even Related to your team planning and just a lot of builder pressure is all this mon brings.

I really wish I could explain this better but got no time rn..I will surely write another Detailed post...
In a nutshell, just get Moon checked or both checked but not only a Cor Sus

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

There was limited support for blast on the last survey, but Gliscor got a similar score and Moon was lower on the write-ins than mons like Lu, Pech, and Ghold, yet here we are talking about them..

I do appreciate that the community is given the ability to voice but at the end of the day council expressing their desires has the ability to immediately influence most of the community.

It actually speaks a bit to the unhealthiness of Tera blast that it did score as high as it did despite finches subtle opposition to its ban. If Finch were on board vocally I'm certain it would be a community concern.

Im sure others in their chat are voicing concerns about moon now too suddenly not just him. Just my opinion.

 

[Finchinator]

It actually speaks a bit to the unhealthiness of Tera blast that it did score as high as it did despite finches subtle opposition to its ban. If Finch were on board vocally I'm certain it would be a community concern

Yea, I am sorry I…have an opinion as a frequent player of the metagame. And I apologize for…using my platform to be transparent about how I feel when in a leadership position. And it’s definitely ruining the tier that…competent players with experience provide their insights publicly.

Wait, I am not sorry for any of that. That’s just me doing my job.

Multiple suspects have happened without my wholehearted support. Numerous verdicts went against my personal view.

I do not appreciate your point here.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I do appreciate that the community is given the ability to voice but at the end of the day council expressing their desires has the ability to immediately influence most of the community.

It actually speaks a bit to the unhealthiness of Tera blast that it did score as high as it did despite finches subtle opposition to its ban. If Finch were on board vocally I'm certain it would be a community concern.

Im sure others in their chat are voicing concerns about moon now too suddenly not just him. Just my opinion.

Generally speaking when it comes to voting democratically people vote within their own knowledge and for informed voters within their own interest and sometimes moral values (lol). Typically when people are influenced by others in their vote its due to confirmation bias, a deep rooted trust or respect, or to gain benefits socially. When we apply this to Pokemon sure Finchinator might add confirmation bias to some peoples views but like theres 100's of other forum post well made or not that will do this anyways. I think Finch is well known yes but a lot of people don't personally know him or have a perceived connection to him and so I don't his standing in the community effects the votes either. On the contrary people like Blunder or CTC who have a bit of a parasocial following which is inevitable from YT, has definitely influenced votes and general ideas on the metagame. As for social benefits its a blind vote, and no ones gonna scour the whole thread for who didnt vote ban or no ban and socially exile you in mons lmfao. From the general rules on how people are able to influence votes as public figures I don't think Finch does much beyond confirmation bias which anyone can do, and a vast majority of voters just vote in their own interest since this is a direct democracy with weeding out of the uninformed.

 

[JackRG]

From how I see it Roaring Moon is a pretty clear candidate for a suspect. Gliscor was tested fairly recently and nothing has really changed about it since then. Roaring Moon on the other hand has not only not been suspected since it was rereleased into the tier, but has seen significant development in recent months. I also think out of the the problematic mons in the tier, it is both the unhealthiest and is the least beneficial to the metagame, which is in stark contrast to some other controversial mons (Ex: Pon's Water Absorb provides defensive utility, Kyurem has solid natural bulk and helps offensive teams pressure mons like gliscor, zapdos, lu, etc). A moon ban in my opinion would not only allow for much less strain on the teambuilder, but has the most replaceable role by far. We have plenty of dragon dancers, strong knock off users, and dark types as is and everything moon does can be done by other mons (albeit while being less broken then moon).

 

[Alternator]

This is entirely, 100% a vibes-based statement, but Roaring Moon really seems like a mon feasting on a favorable metagame, and its strength will drop back down to a more normal 'good mon' level in a few weeks - the same few weeks that a suspect test would require. It wouldn't be dominating by the time voting actually starts, and wouldn't come close to a ban - it really feels like a Walking Wake situation, moreso than a 'true' broken mon.

Meanwhile, Gliscor is doing normal Gliscor things, the same Gliscor things that it's done all generation. If there's currently sufficient support to test it, then that support feels like it'd be much more durable over a suspect test.

Edit: To be clear, this isn't a "Don't test Roaring Moon," it's "If both are viable options, go with Gliscor."

 

[Finchinator]

This is entirely, 100% a vibes-based statement, but Roaring Moon really seems like a mon feasting on a favorable metagame, and its strength will drop back down to a more normal "good mon" level in a few weeks - the same few weeks that a suspect test would require. It wouldn't be dominating by the time voting actually starts, and wouldn't come close to a ban - it really feels like a Walking Wake situation, moreso than a "true" broken mon.

This comparison makes no sense when you consider Walking Wake was released weeks before its suspect test, Roaring Moon has a clear adaptation in set mix, and there is not exactly new counterplay coming.

The tier is absolutely cyclical and it is possible Roaring Moon can be even better or even worse in the future, but to make a sweeping comparison like this without presenting any actual substance beyond ~vibes~ or explaining why certain counterplay could pop up more is silly. You could say the same thing about virtually any other suspect or ban if you are ok ignoring the actual contents of the tier at that point.

 

[Magcargo]

I would not mind banning Moon (and Dragonite afterwards when that starts pulling the same shenanigans) since DDers with Tera Blast + Recovery are very difficult to stop from snowballing. That said, I am in agreement that Tera Blast is probably the culprit here. Moon is fairly cheap, but also runs into 4MSS, the Tera Blast sets have massive opportunity cost in being a Tera Sink, and these bulky Roost sets, while good, still run into the aformentioned issues. Taunt sets are quite good, but I also don't find them to be particularly broken. I also feel that hyper offense teams may require its presence. That said, regardless, I would much prefer it to be gone.

I think the primary positive contribution of Roaring Moon is being a strong Gking + Gholdengo breaker. That said, the tier has many alternatives for that role, such as Samurott-H, Darkrai, Garchomp, Great Tusk, Weavile and a few other strong Pokemon that IMO are good but not quite as overbearing as Roaring Moon can be with its combination of speed boosting + recovery. The annoying part about these bulky sets for me is that you don't know whether you are facing bulky Moon or speedy moon, so speed control that should be "safe" such as speed booster valiant is still ambigius as it gets the second DD and still beats you anyways.

I'll admit, on some level, Moon is a skill check Pokemon. There are a lot of replays I watch where the reason Moon is such a big threat is that something was mishandled. Even in these SPL replays, I am not seeing what particularly makes Moon so much different now than it was a couple of months ago - it mostly seems to be doing the same things using the same three sets - Tera Flying, Tera Fairy, and Tera Ground. There was one Tera Water Moon game where it killed a Lando-T, and another game where Tera Ghost Roaring Moon reverse swept at the end. That said, even in these games, I feel like the players did mess up a bit in how they handled Moon. In the Tera Ghost Moon game for example, I feel that the correct line of play at the end was not praying for a sludge bomb Poison with Gking, but just directly going into one of Tinkaton or Galarian Zapdos. These plays pose their own risk, however, so I do understand why the player did not go for it - moon could have EQ or something else so these lines aren't entirely safe. And I do feel these game's do also illistrate why Moon can be so frustrating - every missed prediction lets it get another DD -> eventually sweep. There wasn't any way of knowing this Moon was even Roost, and unlike something like, idk, Kingambit, there is no playing around this shit. You can at least Wisp or Encore Kingambit once it setup, rely on a clutch Tera Fairy, play around its Sucker Punches. Or hell, even bait out Tera earlier in the game. Once these DDers start getting the Boost though, there becomes very little you can do around it, espicially if they also have Roost. This is also why I suspect Dragonite will get looked soon as well, since these exact same scenarios apply to it.

 

[Avira]

I would not mind banning Moon (and Dragonite afterwards when that starts pulling the same shenanigans) since DDers with Tera Blast + Recovery are very difficult to stop from snowballing. That said, I am in agreement that Tera Blast is probably the culprit here. Moon is fairly cheap, but also runs into 4MSS, the Tera Blast sets have massive opportunity cost in being a Tera Sink, and these bulky Roost sets, while good, still run into the aformentioned issues. Taunt sets are quite good, but I also don't find them to be particularly broken. I also feel that hyper offense teams may require its presence. That said, regardless, I would much prefer it to be gone.

I think the primary positive contribution of Roaring Moon is being a strong Gking + Gholdengo breaker. That said, the tier has many alternatives for that role, such as Samurott-H, Darkrai, Garchomp, Great Tusk, Weavile and a few other strong Pokemon that IMO are good but not quite as overbearing as Roaring Moon can be with its combination of speed boosting + recovery. The annoying part about these bulky sets for me is that you don't know whether you are facing bulky Moon or speedy moon, so speed control that should be "safe" such as speed booster valiant is still ambigius as it gets the second DD and still beats you anyways.

I'll admit, on some level, Moon is a skill check Pokemon. There are a lot of replays I watch where the reason Moon is such a big threat is that something was mishandled. Even in these SPL replays, I am not seeing what particularly makes Moon so much different now than it was a couple of months ago - it mostly seems to be doing the same things using the same three sets - Tera Flying, Tera Fairy, and Tera Ground. There was one Tera Water Moon game where it killed a Lando-T, and another game where Tera Ghost Roaring Moon reverse swept at the end. That said, even in these games, I feel like the players did mess up a bit in how they handled Moon. In the Tera Ghost Moon game for example, I feel that the correct line of play at the end was not praying for a sludge bomb Poison with Gking, but just directly going into one of Tinkaton or Galarian Zapdos. These plays pose their own risk, however, so I do understand why the player did not go for it - moon could have EQ or something else so these lines aren't entirely safe. And I do feel these game's do also illistrate why Moon can be so frustrating - every missed prediction lets it get another DD -> eventually sweep. There wasn't any way of knowing this Moon was even Roost, and unlike something like, idk, Kingambit, there is no playing around this shit. You can at least Wisp or Encore Kingambit once it setup, rely on a clutch Tera Fairy, play around its Sucker Punches. Or hell, even bait out Tera earlier in the game. Once these DDers start getting the Boost though, there becomes very little you can do around it, espicially if they also have Roost. This is also why I suspect Dragonite will get looked soon as well, since these exact same scenarios apply to it.

Roaring Moon is a much bigger threat than Dragonite though 'cause of its much higher speed tier and Booster Energy boost. Dragonite often can't fit any natural STAB options on its DD sets unless you go with Scale Shot, which has the downside of making it easier to revenge due to the defense drop, meaning its initial power is MUCH lower than that of Roaring Moon's. And should Dragonite actually choose to use Roost on its DD set, no matter what 2 attacking moves it has, it'll still have a lot more counterplay than Roaring Moon due to the lower breaking power.

I also wouldn't mind a Tera Blast ban as it'd meaningfully reduce volatility in the tier and would nerf Roaring Moon to a perhaps more reasonable level while lessening Kyurem and Kingambit's threat level, but I have a hard time seeing Dragonite ever get to the point in which it needs to be banned as I find it a very healthy presence for the meta that has a lot of defensive utility while not being outrageous as a threat. Banning Tera Blast would stop a lot of mons from sniping checks with the right Tera Blast type, which would be good for the meta.