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Besides good stats, ability, and moves, an underrated problem is the combination of dragon dance and STAB knock off. Actually, very few viable pokemon have this combo besides Tyranitar, which is a bad dancer.
- If it uses dragon dance, it can beat 99% of pokemon with most sets and usually just wins from the mid-late game.
- If doesn't use dragon dance, it's difficult to switch into because of STAB 139 ATK knock off, making it effective in the early game at removing items and weakening checks.
So no matter what, if Roaring Moon gets a free turn there is little counterplay. There are almost no pokemon with this same threat profile, for example dragonite and kyurem are quite easy to switch into without dragon dance, and most knock off users don't threaten speed boosting.
I wonder if Tera Blast could be on suspect list?
I know Tera won't be suspected for the rest of this gen, but how about Tera Blast? I find that it keeps contributing to the problem of "way too many sets to counter" for a lot of offensive mons.
I’ve been quiet on the forums due to schoolwork and my YT channel, but I just wanna throw in my take on Gliscor/Roaring Moon, cause it might shock you.
I was one of the most vocal pro-ban Gliscor players. SD Gliscor is simply too bulky and too difficult to kill for how effortlessly it could break Balance. But a new year comes new changes, which includes me thinking Gliscor is fine.
What changed for me is the way Balance and BO has evolved. Corviknight, despite 1LDK’s efforts to dissuade the public, has been gaining a lot of traction as a slow pivot and blanket check to several offensive threats.
The argument I have held was that Gliscor had no long-term counters because of Gliscor’s infinite healing and access to Knock Off, including Corviknight who can be stalled out of PP over a long game. In reality, that is not always the case.
Beating Gliscor long-term shouldn’t be the goal, but rather holding it off while finding openings to assert pressure on Gliscor’s team. SD Gliscor structures tend to be exploitable from experience. They tend to put all their eggs in one basket by supporting this one allegedly broken Pokemon. Running a Spiker, a SR setter, a Freeze Dry switch-in, and a spinblocker.
Ofc not all SD Gliscor structures are like this as shown by Gliscor’s appearences on Veil, Stall, and even Webs, but you’re most likely to run into an SD Gliscor on builds following this formula. They can be exploited by stuff like Knock Tusk, Waterpon, DD Tera Fire Kyu, Keldeo, etc.
Gliscor itself has its own limitations as a breaker. It needs to get up a Swords Dance and most likely burn a Tera. Sure Gliscor doesn’t have trouble setting up, but due to how piss weak it is unboosted, there’s more than enough opportunities for the opponent to swap into something like Zama, or fast Encorers like Val and Waterpon.
Terastilizing Gliscor can also be a risk. Losing its immunity to Spikes which can screw itself over vs opposing hazard stack (esp when ran on Boots Spam). Even after Tera, it can still be forced out/taken out with powerful breakers or stuff like Zama, Whirlwind Ting-Lu. Speaking of Ting. It can force it down close to around 60% with Ruination and Whirlwind it out, leaving it more vulnerable to mons it can normally tank hits from like Dragapult in exchange of getting chipped.
Gambit can also come in on the Knock/Facade set and attempt to reverse sweep Gliscor’s team. Running EQ over Facade just leaves you open to Waterpon and Balloon Ghold.
There’s a weird stigma that Gliscor makes Balance less viable when in reality, it’s mostly used ON Balance. Yes, if you run some passive bs, Gliscor will run you over, but Fat teams in general just suck in this meta outside of some good MUs.
TL;DR:
-Play aggressively, SD Gliscor teams succumb to offensive pressure.
On the flip side. Roaring Moon is a mon I’ve been finding problematic. Similar to the late G-Fire, its a gamble on what see you run into, whether its Tera Blast, Tera Ground Roost, Three Attacks, Taunt, or even Tera Dragon Outrage which is something I’ve seen a couple times. Even if you do hold off a sweep, Roaring Moon always leaves a trail of destruction behind thanks to stupidly strong Knock Off. If we’re seeing Unaware Clef on Balance just to deal with this demon, then there’s a problem.
You did not mention a single form of counterplay towards Roaring Moon in this entire post and hardly did for Gliscor. You claim both Pokemon have “enough splashable checks”, but quite literally mention nothing. I kept reading thinking “oh it’ll be addressed here” a few times and then it just…never came up.
We don’t tier just because you think Roaring Moon checks Ogerpon (it doesn’t) or keeps Sun viable (Sun is fine regardless, but irrelevant) it has to stay in the tier. We tier to make sure there are actual checks and counters to things. Otherwise, we would have kept anything with any defensive value in OU regardless of how broken it is. This post shows a misunderstanding of that.
Roaring Moon is a much bigger threat than Dragonite though 'cause of its much higher speed tier and Booster Energy boost. Dragonite often can't fit any natural STAB options on its DD sets unless you go with Scale Shot, which has the downside of making it easier to revenge due to the defense drop, meaning its initial power is MUCH lower than that of Roaring Moon's. And should Dragonite actually choose to use Roost on its DD set, no matter what 2 attacking moves it has, it'll still have a lot more counterplay than Roaring Moon due to the lower breaking power.
I highly disagree. I think Dragonite is on the same level if not better for multiple reasons. It has just as much set variety as Roaring Moon (if not more), it has priority (or at least the option of priority which makes it even more dangerous because set variety) which makes speed matter less and causes it to be far less afraid of being revenge killed, it has, in my opinion, a far better movepool, and it has a great defensive ability in multiscale that causes it to be ohkoed far less often than Roaring Moon can. I do not undervalue Roaring Moon though. It still has a solid movepool and its high speed means it can sacrifice some of it to go a bit bulkier (which seems to be the current trend and a major contributing factor to its discussion). Despite that I do not believe either pokemon is broken. However, I do think it would be awesome if Dragonite was banned because he is my favorite pokemon and if he is too strong for ou then that proves that it is the best non legendary gen 1 pokemon as no other has ever been banned (not counting megas).
Besides good stats, ability, and moves, an underrated problem is the combination of dragon dance and STAB knock off. Actually, very few viable pokemon have this combo besides Tyranitar, which is a bad dancer.
- If it uses dragon dance, it can beat 99% of pokemon with most sets and usually just wins from the mid-late game.
- If doesn't use dragon dance, it's difficult to switch into because of STAB 139 ATK knock off, making it effective in the early game at removing items and weakening checks.
So no matter what, if Roaring Moon gets a free turn there is little counterplay. There are almost no pokemon with this same threat profile, for example dragonite and kyurem are quite easy to switch into without dragon dance, and most knock off users don't threaten speed boosting.
This is what I mean by having a solid movepool. Roaring Moon may not be broken (imo) but it can definitely rip holes in your team if you don't prepare enough for it. Just like any other pokemon (in theory) you must respect it on the teambuilder.
Speaking from experience of rising barely able to reach 1300 to now sitting in 1700's, some things you just have to learn and pick up on. There's no shortage of resources, players willing to offer help, etc. It takes some reviewing of ones own style and weaknesses to figure out what to work on, I highly suggest recording replays where you lost but can't pinpoint why, or how you could have done it 'better' and let someone try to point out how you could have done it different with the tools at your disposal. Knowledge is a strong power in this game, and figuring out your strengths and playing into them is equally important.
Pokemon is often about repetition, if you know bringing in Gambit will make them switch to Moltres, then inferring based on game state what their options are off that is simply one of the many methods of improving. Unless there's a good idea of what you feel like you fall short on, broad suggestions are the best thing players can provide as they are often things that many too fall short on. The tier definitely has its issues, but its not impossible to improve in and get a grasp on here. I'm saying this as someone who uses a highly unusual team lol.
So this doesn't derail the original convo though:
I'm in full support of Roaring Moon and Gliscor at least being tested. I think both mons have a lot going for them in the current scope, and both equally feel constricting to deal with. Moon especially with its bulky sets are a fucking nightmare to contend with. Gliscor I admittedly naturally hate due to Tera, but it's Gliscor and it will be annoying regardless of gen. I would prefer Kyu, Moon, and Gliscor to be looked at with Ogerpon following suit.
I highly disagree. I think Dragonite is on the same level if not better for multiple reasons. It has just as much set variety as Roaring Moon (if not more), it has priority (or at least the option of priority which makes it even more dangerous because set variety) which makes speed matter less and causes it to be far less afraid of being revenge killed, it has, in my opinion, a far better movepool, and it has a great defensive ability in multiscale that causes it to be ohkoed far less often than Roaring Moon can. I do not undervalue Roaring Moon though. It still has a solid movepool and its high speed means it can sacrifice some of it to go a bit bulkier (which seems to be the current trend and a major contributing factor to its discussion). Despite that I do not believe either pokemon is broken. However, I do think it would be awesome if Dragonite was banned because he is my favorite pokemon and if he is too strong for ou then that proves that it is the best non legendary gen 1 pokemon as no other has ever been banned (not counting megas).
This is what I mean by having a solid movepool. Roaring Moon may not be broken (imo) but it can definitely rip holes in your team if you don't prepare enough for it. Just like any other pokemon (in theory) you must respect it on the teambuilder.
I think this post misunderands the OP a little. Dragonite is probably a better Pokemon than Roaring Moon because of its consistensy and excellent defensive utility, but Roaring Moon is a bigger threat. Dragonite can get around checks with set diverisity but is so much more imited. Dragonite cant get around phazing so Ting-Lu is consistently safe, and Dragonite ges around checks by OHKOing them witcoverage unlike Roaring Moon who turns them into set up fodder. Taunt is the biggest offeder but Roaring Moon's Tera variety is also a part of this. The bulky Jaw Lock sets are also exceptionally good at doing this. Dragonite just can't compare threat-wise, not to mention the speed and attack wich makes Roaring Moon tougher to revenge (Outspeeds Booster Val and Moth for example, I'd point out Scarf Enamorus but honestly not confident it survives Extreme Speed. Sun's Walking Wake and Jolly Zamazenta are also good examples of the difference in speed tiers)
We're getting a little off-topic, so let's try to keep discussion focused on Roaring Moon and Gliscor. If you want to debate the merits of Tera Blast or Dragonite or whatever threat, take it to Metagame Discussion.
I'd like to argue for Roaring Moon to stay in the tier.
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Firstly, I'd like to echo Insolence's point - the current defensive cores that are running around have numerous setup opportunities for specific Roaring Moon sets to take advantage of, such as Tusk with Tera, Ting-Lu if carrying Taunt (even then, you don't really want to take EQs), and Zama if you're Tera Flying. This is a major contributor to the rise of Roaring Moon back into the metagame, and likely why it's in the spotlight now.
Let's take a look at Roaring Moon's stat breakdown from this SPL:
[all data taken from Ticken's sheet, feel free to verify these numbers]
Winrate
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Moon currently sits at a 53.13% WR (53.57% if we exclude mirror matchups). Not bad, but certainly not 60%+ range where something is a big issue off of non-mirror winrate alone.
Set Winrates
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Currently, the Tera Fairy set sits at quite a nice 80% winrate.
Its two other common Teras, though, sit at sub-50% winrates: Tera Flying is the better of the two, sporting a 40% WR through 5 uses, while the Tera Ground variant sits at an abysmal 25% WR, notching only 1 win in its 4 appearances.
There are two trace Teras with a win in their only appearance - Tera Ghost and Tera Water. I could see these two becoming more mainstream, but they remain one-offs.
Partners
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When we take a look at Roaring Moon's partners [as 2], its top 2 partnerships aren't all-too-good in terms of winrate:
+ sits at a 45.45% WR through 22 uses + sits at a 42.86% WR through 21 uses
One anomaly I found was that Roaring Moon was paired 11 times in a 4-mon chain (that is represented by BE17-BM17 through BE19-BM19 on the sheet) - this 4-mon chain seemed to be part of the Veil resurgence.
+ + + has a 54.55% WR over 11 uses.
On a lot of these teams, there was a very consistent 5th pick of Zamazenta, which led to the following statistic:
+ + + + sat at a flat 50.00% winrate after 10 uses.
There was another triad, separated from Webs and found on normal HO, which did poorly:
+ + was down at a 40.00% winrate off of 10 uses.
Roaring Moon then doesn't get seen again until it gets paired with Walking Wake to form the following common Sun triad:
+ + had a 42.86% winrate after 7 uses.
These constitute Roaring Moon's teamstyles, although of course there is a litany of HO triads, some with success and some that failed, below.
So what does Roaring Moon commonly run on those teams?
Deciphering Moon's Set Variety
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The Veil team that showed up 10 times seemed to use one of two sets:
hellom vs. pdt [Week 2] - seemingly not Taunt / Tera Blast / Bulky Setup, which leaves us with the standard set or the Tera Ground EQ set. Ewin vs. hellom [Week 3] - Tera Fairy Tera Blast, ended up winning the game after CM Hatterene went bonkers aesf vs. mncmt [Week 3] - same set as hellom's, presumably Pais vs. Nat [Week 4] - Tera Fairy Tera Blast, ended up losing after killing a paralyzed Valiant and forcing a Tera trade from Gambit LpZ vs. bhkg [Week 4] - this looks like a copy of Ewin's W3 team, so presumably Tera Fairy Tera Blast oldspicemike vs. Niko [Week 5] - Tera Fairy, but either Tera Blast last so not Bulky Setup or Roost / Taunt last so not TB Fairy clean vs. DugZa [Week 5] - unknown Tera, but this looks like a copy of Ewin's W3 team so again likely Tera Fairy Tera Blast Storm Zone vs. Pais [Week 6] - rather different from the other teams, but reveals Tera Fairy Tera Blast to win on the spot Ewin vs. Niko[Week 6] - seemingly a reuse of Ewin's Week 3 team? reveals Acrobatics, so perhaps this is Tera Blast + 3A S1nn0hC0nfirm3d vs. pdt[Week 7] - similar to oldspicemike's team from Week 5, but with Deo-S over Zama
red highlights = Fire-type on the team
It may look disordered, but if we break it down, we see the following:
On Veil teams without a Fire-type, Roaring Moon ran either the standard 3A Tera Flying or Tera Ground set.
On Veil teams with a Fire-type, Roaring Moon almost always ran Tera Blast Fairy, and very likely 3A TB Fairy.
More analysis to come later regarding Moon’s set variety, but the takeaway is as follows - contrary to many ban advocates, moon’s set is fairly telegraphed on at least 2 of its 3 main uses.
Moon is fine. First, it has sever 4MSS. Second, it's a tera hog. Third, it has a pitiful Defense stat. Fourth, bulky variants are silly, the most useful is tera fairy tera blast.
I think it's fine but i'm not against a suspect.
Gliscor is annoying, doesn't die and needs to go. I don't have much trouble against SD gliscor, it's a silly set which is popular right now but soon everyone will come to their senses and stop using it. The most dangerous, annoying and immortal is the usual standard set (toxic, protect, spikes/sr and Knock off/EQ). Ban it already!
Moon is fine. First, it has sever 4MSS. Second, it's a tera hog. Third, it has a pitiful Defense stat. Fourth, bulky variants are silly, the most useful is tera fairy tera blast.
I think it's fine but i'm not against a suspect.
Gliscor is annoying, doesn't die and needs to go. I don't have much trouble against SD gliscor, it's a silly set which is popular right now but soon everyone will come to their senses and stop using it. The most dangerous, annoying and immortal is the usual standard set (toxic, protect, spikes/sr and Knock off/EQ). Ban it already!
4MSS, but 2 of its clicks are staple anyway (Dragon Dance and Knock Off). Not to mention the fact that Knock-off is just valuable in itself as a progress-forcing move.
Tera hog doesn't matter as much because once it teras, you have to second-guess about what tera it turns into. Flying, Ground and Fairy are the most common ones that requires different kinds of checks (again, Tera dilemma). By the time you switch into a supposed "check", it has already got an attack boost and a Dragon Dance to outspeed most of the things you can think of.
Poor defense doesn't matter as much when the tier doesn't have strong priority users that can deal super-effective damage against it. Or maybe you can do tera normal Dragonite to try to 2HKO it with E-Speed, but then you have also spent your tera against it. Also reaching 370 max speed means unless it runs Adamant, it can still outspeed and threaten to OHKO Val with +2 Acrobatics.
I think both Roaring Moon and Gliscor are quite problematic. Roaring Moon is an immense offensive threat, capable of circumventing various checks and subsequently sweeping teams thanks to its incredible flexibility in moves, investment, and Tera types. With hazard support, Gliscor can choke out almost any team in the long run with Swords Dance + Knock Off + Facade, or it can do the hazard setting itself and just be a general nuisance with Toxic and/or Knock Off. Even with checks like Corviknight and Clefable at an all-time high, both Pokemon are able to consistently put in work.
In my personal view, I think Gliscor is slightly more problematic, because it's still doing virtually the same thing it's been doing all generation to consistently overwhelming success. A winrate of over 60% in SPL is not a fluke as the 5th most used Pokemon in the tournament. Roaring Moon's surge is a more recent phenomenon thanks to an uptick in potent and diverse set options, and I could see the metagame potentially adapt to it again, as it seems Roaring Moon's success is almost cyclical. Nevertheless, this is far from certain given how effective its varied sets can be, so I wouldn't oppose a Roaring Moon suspect test either.
We are giving the situation just a little more time, and then we will probably see next week if we will go through with a suspect test of either Pokemon.
gonna highlight this specficially, because thats kind of untrue. Bulky moon isnt trying to be bulky as much as it is trying to have longevity as a sweeper, something normal moon lacks. the biggest factor in this is tera ground, which basically wins the game on the spot if it can come in on something like garg, hex ghold, choiced ghold, clefable, and zapdos, as well as any roost moon getting infinite free dds on most hamurotts pre tera
Or in other words, You never know what set it is until its got a second DD, for example your Moltres and Ting-Lu get hit by Taunt, or Dragonite can't Dragon Tail it after it clicks Tera Fairy Tera Blast. If a Pokemon could sweep consistently without having to use 4mss then that'd be broken and already quickbanned, I cant see it as an argument for Roaring Moon being fine.
If everyone preps for Tera Fairy Tera Blast, bulky DD gets to steal a lot of games. Bulky lets Roaring Moon get more dances and become a pain with Roost, never to be ignored in the builder.
I m down to support a roaring moon suspect. The bulky DD sets in conjunction with the standard offensive tera bird sets make it a pain in the ass to deal with because you can get that second DD to just end the game on the spot.
And I'm of the opinion that fairy blast moon is actually straight-up a crime against humanity. genuinely bulky dd fairy blast 6-0s most balance/ bulky offense because the standard procedure of go to lando-t get chip with helmet + u-turn goes straight out the window when you're bulky moon cause your best pivot/check practically turns into setup fodder for you to get mad boosts.
you may say its a tera hog but does it really matter when it just cock blocks a healthy well-built team with minimal support?
tldr: fat fairy blast moon is cheap and that set alone should lead to a suspect tbh.
As I touched on here, the SV OU tiering council are seriously discussing Roaring Moon and Gliscor!
Roaring Moon was previously banned for the brute strength of the then-standard Tera Flying Dragon Dance variants. 3 attacks sets with Acrobatics, Knock Off, and one of Earthquake or Brick Break had very limited counterplay and that counterplay was dwarfed by the occasional Taunt variants. Roaring Moon then returned to OU with the release of DLC2 and was seen as good, but not broken, for a number of months. At times, calls to include it in tiering discussions were met with responses labeling it as "Roaring Mid" as the old tricks were capped by various revenge killing mechanisms and soft defensive counterplay.
However, a recent shift in set mix has catapulted Roaring Moon back into the forefront of tiering discussions. Bulky Roost variants are perhaps the largest development, but Tera Blast Fairy sets is in the equation as well. Starting with the former, Roaring Moon is able to ditch some speed and even attack investment to go bulkier. This in conjunction with a defensive Tera type like Fairy or Ghost can give you a lot more set-up opportunity and make you less susceptible to priority than standard 3 attacks variants. Tera Blast Fairy is more simple, giving you the ability to flip the match-up into Zamazenta, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, Raging Bolt, and various others while remaining resistant to Sucker Punch and becoming neutral to Ice Shard. You still are going to be vulnerable to Dragonite Extreme Speed and defensive stalwarts like Dondozo, but it has huge match-up swaying potential into opposing offense at a bare minimum.
These two sets now being common make playing around Roaring Moon, especially when you factor in the classic variants of it, challenging at best and guesswork at worst. There is counterplay to every variant of Roaring Moon and some overlap can exist, but most of it is archetype specific and all of it needs to remain healthy throughout a game despite being needed for common Roaring Moon partners on offensive teams. This dynamic puts a strain on teambuilding and has been met with many Roaring Moon sweeps throughout high ladder and tournament play. Numerous council members have expressed support for a suspect test.
Recent tournament games where Roaring Moon popped off from the last 3 weeks alone:
Gliscor is another ex-Uber that has been dancing in-and-out of tiering talks. The tier's most durable swordsman has drawn the ire of many players due to it being a potent bulky win condition that is hard to pin down, especially with Tera options nullifying weaknesses like Ice and Water type attacks. The general sense is that Roaring Moon is closer to a suspect test right now, but Gliscor is hard to ignore with how common it is and how many resources it demands from opposing teams to contain.
Swords Dance Gliscor has been at the forefront of tiering talks, but it is worth noting that at least one council member sees Toxic variants as even more problematic as it is able to force incrimental progress without being threatened imminently enough in return at times. As for Swords Dance Gliscor, the best and most common variant is Swords Dance, Facade, Knock Off, and Protect. Earthquake is still a fine option, but being walled by specific Flying types or Air Balloon Gholdengo can prove costly. Tera Normal is a great option to tank attacks from Kyurem, Ogerpon-Wellspring, and other threats with coverage like Ice Spinner Great Tusk or Ice Beam Darkrai; the bonus of boosting Facade's power and immunizing Hex from Dragapult helps matters even more. Tera Water and Fairy are also great options for a plethora of possible match-ups depending upon your team.
We have noticed a lot of teams either need to run a combination of Pokemon like a Kyurem/Ogerpon-Wellspring/Great Tusk with initially effective attacks and then also something to take advantage of Normal type Gliscor like Zamazenta or Encore+Close Combat Iron Valiant, which can even fail to OHKO Gliscor from full. This is an enormous strain on team construction for archetypes like bulky-offensse as is, but it can get even more nuanced for bulky teams. Corviknight with Iron Defense is a great 1-on-1 stop, but it is possible for it to run out of Roost PP well before Gliscor is out of attacking PP, and things like Dondozo lack longevity once they lose Heavy-Duty Boots as well. This has meant Pokemon like Salt Cure + Ice Punch Garganacl, Weezing-Galar to flip Poison Heal into a major self-hit, or Big Stall favorite Knock Off + Sticky Barb Clefable cores to keep Gliscor's from recovering can check Gliscor, but many teams have to go off the beaten path to assure it does not threaten a sweep. Counterplay very much does exist, but is it convenient enough and numerous enough within the confines of our metagame for Gliscor to be balanced? That is what it boils down to!
Recent tournament games where Gliscor popped off from the last 3 weeks alone:
Both of these Pokemon are performing at elite levels consistently, threatening to end or at least derail games despite facing some semblance of counterplay. It is possible we proceed with a public suspect test without a formal, public survey depending upon support in this thread and the council. Please voice your thoughts on Roaring Moon and Gliscor in this thread in the immediate future!
The SV OU council is likely to ramp up discussions next week with potential options being no action whatsoever, a survey including both Pokemon (and others), and an internal decision to proceed with a public suspect test.
If you feel strongly, you should share your thoughts in the meantime.
I would not mind banning Moon (and Dragonite afterwards when that starts pulling the same shenanigans) since DDers with Tera Blast + Recovery are very difficult to stop from snowballing. That said, I am in agreement that Tera Blast is probably the culprit here. Moon is fairly cheap, but also runs into 4MSS, the Tera Blast sets have massive opportunity cost in being a Tera Sink, and these bulky Roost sets, while good, still run into the aformentioned issues. Taunt sets are quite good, but I also don't find them to be particularly broken. I also feel that hyper offense teams may require its presence. That said, regardless, I would much prefer it to be gone.
I think the primary positive contribution of Roaring Moon is being a strong Gking + Gholdengo breaker. That said, the tier has many alternatives for that role, such as Samurott-H, Darkrai, Garchomp, Great Tusk, Weavile and a few other strong Pokemon that IMO are good but not quite as overbearing as Roaring Moon can be with its combination of speed boosting + recovery. The annoying part about these bulky sets for me is that you don't know whether you are facing bulky Moon or speedy moon, so speed control that should be "safe" such as speed booster valiant is still ambigius as it gets the second DD and still beats you anyways.
I'll admit, on some level, Moon is a skill check Pokemon. There are a lot of replays I watch where the reason Moon is such a big threat is that something was mishandled. Even in these SPL replays, I am not seeing what particularly makes Moon so much different now than it was a couple of months ago - it mostly seems to be doing the same things using the same three sets - Tera Flying, Tera Fairy, and Tera Ground. There was one Tera Water Moon game where it killed a Lando-T, and another game where Tera Ghost Roaring Moon reverse swept at the end. That said, even in these games, I feel like the players did mess up a bit in how they handled Moon. In the Tera Ghost Moon game for example, I feel that the correct line of play at the end was not praying for a sludge bomb Poison with Gking, but just directly going into one of Tinkaton or Galarian Zapdos. These plays pose their own risk, however, so I do understand why the player did not go for it - moon could have EQ or something else so these lines aren't entirely safe. And I do feel these game's do also illistrate why Moon can be so frustrating - every missed prediction lets it get another DD -> eventually sweep. There wasn't any way of knowing this Moon was even Roost, and unlike something like, idk, Kingambit, there is no playing around this shit. You can at least Wisp or Encore Kingambit once it setup, rely on a clutch Tera Fairy, play around its Sucker Punches. Or hell, even bait out Tera earlier in the game. Once these DDers start getting the Boost though, there becomes very little you can do around it, espicially if they also have Roost. This is also why I suspect Dragonite will get looked soon as well, since these exact same scenarios apply to it.
Frankly I think Dragonite is cheaper than roaring moon, I don't think roaring moon is any different for being a Tera sink since Dragonite loves to Tera normal extremespeed, and like roaring moon it is extremely dangerous when it deviates from anything but the most common set and Tera, particularly unhealthy with Dragonite is the fact that it's such an effective lure especially with Tera blast, it also can run mixed and special sets unlike roaring moon, it's like a roaring moon with priority, but you can't check it with your own priority either, and is more diverse. Frankly I would look at it over moon and the largely healthy Gliscor, but it and moon are largely two sides of the same coin
Frankly I think Dragonite is cheaper than roaring moon, I don't think roaring moon is any different for being a Tera sink since Dragonite loves to Tera normal extremespeed, and like roaring moon it is extremely dangerous when it deviates from anything but the most common set and Tera, particularly unhealthy with Dragonite is the fact that it's such an effective lure especially with Tera blast, it also can run mixed and special sets unlike roaring moon, it's like a roaring moon with priority, but you can't check it with your own priority either, and is more diverse. Frankly I would look at it over moon and the largely healthy Gliscor, but it and moon are largely two sides of the same coin
Dragonite is technically a better Pokémon due to more splashability and more sets beyond offensive options, but in terms of threat Moon is way ahead. Dnite may mix it up and it’s very good, but no matter how it goes about it there will be imperfections in its options and teams are better equipped with soft checks that can help limit it. it also has a much noticeable lack of oomph compared to Moon out of the gate and with how common Tera Ghost is, Tera Normal ESpeed while still capable and threatening, is nowhere near the danger by comparison.
Mixed and special sets are also completely non issues in terms of the meta game, and are fine even positive aspects of the tier while sets like DTail + ESpeed bring valuable utility to teams. It’s a Mon you have to respect just off what it can do but I don’t agree that it’s close to an issue, let alone one like Roaring Moon is.
TLDR - Gliscor is manageable, RM is a problem, Tiering on Tera Blast should preceed any other suspect
Gliscor - A lot of solid points have already been made in support of refraining from a Gliscor test, all of which I heartily agree to. Gliscor poses the biggest threat to bulkier balances, and in my opinion the SD/Knock sets are the only ones that push it from balanced to somewhat suspect worthy. However, I don't believe its an auto win matchup, counterplay definitely exists and more options will continue to surge in popularity as the meta evolves (we've already seen the rise of unaware clefable in SPL, ID+Body Press Ghost Nacl is also more common on the ladder these days, and perhaps the least effective but still worth mentioning is the pressure stalling corviknight). Furthermore, no balance teams should play in a do nothing manner waiting for Gliscor to set up and clean for free, trying to stay ahead of the scor with your own wincons is the challenging aspect but also the most rewarding one while trying to make balance work in this meta. The toxic spiker sets, on the other hand, does not feel any different from any of the other bulky spikers in the meta, tho it does have unlimited sustain and aborbs knock, it does not feel overbearing in my opinion and does not deserve any mention when determining if the mon is banworthy.
RM - RM, on the other hand, feels like an enigma that is impossible to prepare for in the builder. Every check loses to a different set/tera, and the game of guessing which set often proves futile since it takes too many resources with it. Kyurem was a similar offender but not nearly to the same extent due to its weakness to hazards and lack of taunt making it susceptible to phasing and one time checks. The bulky tera fairy sets are rising in popularity and definitely the most difficult to deal with, but I believe this problem is only compounded by Tera Blast. I strongly believe that since we have opted to keep tera in the metagame, its high time we address TB as a move since tiering on it decides the fate of so many mons being broken and balanced, RM included. Testing and banning moon first only to follow up with discussing on tera blast seems redundant and inefficient. While it is true RM may be broken even in a meta without tera blast, we should cross that bridge only when we get there. I personally am still undecided on banning tera blast myself, but still believe it warrants tiering action now, whatever the manner maybe - another survey, a suspect etc.
If we were only banning pokemon due to their viability or usage, Landorus would be gone generations ago. A mon being higher rated than a lower mon does not mean it is inherently more banworthy @ Dragonite.
I think Gliscor is annoying but manageable, lean dnb with kyu still around. Moon on the other hand, as others have said, is doing the same things that got it banned before but with even more set diversification. It isn't unbeatable but it demands all hands on deck the second its out and you probably just die if you guess the set wrong
Against my better judgement, I have returned to this game again for a little bit. As far as Gliscor goes, nothing has really changed and you can search up in the previous suspect thread or in my comment history all the points I have made about Glsicor. Gliscor is good against fat the same way Zama and Dragonite is good against offense. I voted DnB before, I would vote the same verdict again.
As for Roaring Moon, from what I have seen on ladder and the recent events in SPL, we need more time to assess the situation better. There has been real big uptick in Unaware Clef and Corvis recently and those two mons can really make Moon's life really hard. I personally don't want this mon banned. The ability to guareentee progress with powerful knocks, the set customization(which has been really fun) and the ability to make these stupid rng birds trade themselves to beat Moon has been quite nice. I have also never been a fan of shit like Mola or Slowking coming in for free and just pivoting without a care about chip damage. So all these comments saying Moon doesn't bring anything valuable to the tier are actually wrong about this.
At the same time, any comparision with Darkrai is a faulty one. Darkrai preyed on certain balance staples but it wasn't Darkrai alone. It was a combined team effort of a bunch of special spammers like Ghold, Bolt, Moth ect that could eventually overload the opponents defensive structures.
Furthermore, as fast as Darkrai is, it's speed always remains consistent and so does offensive counterplay. Nowadays people know that just walling things isn't gonna get you far(unless you are stall) and have realized to use defensive walls more so as a buffer zone instead of trying to permanently block the opponents progress and so Darkrai remains not only completely managable but also one of balances top choices for utility like Knock and status while also able to offensively check mons like Ghold or Woger who are notorious fat breakers and others depending on your coverage move, becoming a great ally of balance as well. Darkrai even back then had consistent counterplay
Roaring Moon on the other hand has many different sets all that have different counterplay as have already been stated by many people. The worst part is, it's counterplay variance is not only determined by the set but also the tera type and it's nature as well. One of the best ways to counteract setup sweepers is to checkmate it into encore. Viable encore users include Ninetales(both), Woger, Tinkaton or Iron valiant. As we can see in the Pais vs SZ set, Pais had the game in the bag by wasting turns of Veils with Pecha but also making SZ fear Poison for Moon so it doesnt come in for free. After that he was checkmating it with Tinkaton and Moon isn't behind a Veil so it doesnt get many free turns.....but it turns out Encore failed cause the Moon was slow as heck. After that, SZ reverse swept Pais just for that one blunder. The last move of Tink wasn't revealed but assuming the last move was Twave. that was probably the move to click. However what if Moon was a substitute variant, then what? Or what if you had a Encore Valiant thinking that Moon was slow only to reveal it was max speed jolly?
In the past, the way to beat Moon was quite simple and there were plenty of things dealing with it. Generally speaking, chip damage through Rocky Helmet and aggressive plays, forcing it to tera into a more unfavorable typing by u-turning with Corv or Lando to revenge it with Bolt or Gambit, phazing it with Zama or Lu or statusing it. I personally loved to use rock tomb Lando or Tusk to slow it down and force it into a checkmate even if it wounds beating my check, I can revenge it afterwards no problem. It could have some set variances like taunt for example but it would always give up sth. valuable like dealing with Gambit for example.
However with the advent of bulky roost sets, tera blast sets and other moves like sub and taunt in it's arsenal the onus will always be on the non-moon user to make a play since your opponent doesn't know the set and guessing wrong can quite literally end the game for you. Since it also has a lot of raw power initially, playing aggressively can also be quite dangerous. For example you have Slowking out and the opponent has Moon in. Losing Slowking means the Iron Moth(also a common partner with Moon) in the back can sweep you later but giving it a free turn might just end the game right there. Even if you think you have answers like Corvi, what if it is taunt Fairy Blast?
The problem here is, general counterplay(both offensively and defensively) has become narrower for Moon and has veered more into specialized counterplay something that is not a healthy sign. Chip damage is made useless with bulky roost sets, status is countered by sub or taunt sets, priority can be negated with the right tera type. Every set, every tera type can be customized and even if you give something up(for example no taunt for Corvi means it always beats it most of it's set) thanks to it's raw power and game ending potential, the non Moon user has to make a call here as the Moon user is the one with all the information.
Also another thing
On Veil teams without a Fire-type, Roaring Moon ran either the standard 3A Tera Flying or Tera Ground set.
On Veil teams with a Fire-type, Roaring Moon almost always ran Tera Blast Fairy, and very likely 3A TB Fairy.
this should not be set in stone stone rule btw. Moon can potentially run lure teammates like Temper Flare/Head Smash Tusk or Dragonite mons that literally attract the same targets and snipe them and clean them up for each other. I have run many dragon spam teams in the past and it had the opponents guessing. Speaking of, since I am a sun lover, I would like to discuss one underrated set for Roaring Moon on sun. I have been using it in tandem with Tera Fairy Dragonite and they seem like a really effective combo on sun.
Roaring Moon @ Life Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
Some insane calcs I would like to present
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight in Sun: 398-468 (99.7 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Fire Roaring Moon Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Neutralizing Gas Weezing-Galar in Sun: 208-247 (62.2 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Protosynthesis Tera Fire Roaring Moon Outrage vs. 244 HP / 36 Def Gliscor: 419-493 (119 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protosynthesis Tera Fire Roaring Moon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 227-269 (45 - 53.3%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO
All mons that counter your typical Roaring Moon sets. Tera fire Moon also beats Scizor, a mon that saw a resurgence in play thanks to tera fairy sets. If anything the fact the tera fairy blast sets are so trendy right now, makes it easier to prepare for since that is what everyone is running right now. Once the trend fades and people learn how to just take advantage of Moon's unpredictability on top of it's raw power, you guys will know true terror.
My advice would be to first do survey though. Ask the player base, maybe there is something we have been overlooking. Tera Blast has also been mentioned as a very unhealthy part of this metagame and it is one of Moon's biggest strenghts. I agree there is a chance that everything here is just trend thing and Moon is just feasting on popular structure, I would love to be wrong here since I am really having fun with this mon.
As for Roaring Moon, from what I have seen on ladder and the recent events in SPL, we need more time to assess the situation better. There has been real big uptick in Unaware Clef and Corvis recently and those two mons can really make Moon's life really hard.
The main thing I think we have to determine is whether these adaptions are healthy. Like, are people using these mons and its helping in other MU's, or are they using it only for moon while compromising other MU's?
I think Corv is absolutely a healthy adaption, it helps against a lot of the meta and is a good overall mon.
Unaware clefable though, I'm unsure of. Yes, it helps against setup sweepers in general, but realistically, Magic Guard is really good into a lot of other pokemon, and Clefable would probably prefer that. I would say this is more likely an unhealthy adaption if anything.
Also for the point about punishing fat teams, while yes, moon punishes them, the point about it not bringing value to the tier is more that it doesn't have something that can't be replicated. Weavile, Meow, Hamurott, Waterpon, I-val and prob more that I just can't be bothered to name. We do have lots of tools to break through these fat cores, so there isn't any reason to keep it around for those tools, its whether its broken or not.
The council is holding an internal vote as to how to proceed between various options including a Roaring Moon suspect, Gliscor suspect, community survey, and doing nothing.
Thank you guys all for discussing these topics with us in the meantime and I will follow up during this week at some point.
The council is holding an internal vote as to how to proceed between various options including a Roaring Moon suspect, Gliscor suspect, community survey, and doing nothing.
Thank you guys all for discussing these topics with us in the meantime and I will follow up during this week at some point.
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