Metagame Views From The Council [ SEE POST 716 ]

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I don’t buy the Machamp/Dynamic Punch comparison.

Firstly, Machamp hits way harder than Pecharunt.

Secondly, Malignant Chain has numerous switch-ins that are immune to its 50% Poison + confusion chance. Steel types are common in SV OU because Kyurem is broken, Gholdengo is amazing, and Kingambit is Kingambit. Most offensive teams have at least one poison type since absorbing Tspikes is necessary to not wipe to Glimmora HO. There’s also Gliscor and Garg who don’t care about switching into Hex. Compare this to DPP Machamp and Dynamic Punch. Gengar and Rotom are the only Ghost types, both of them get blown up by Pursuit Ttar or Payback. Slowbro is a strong counter but isn’t an OU calibur mon, and you’re giving up using way better bulky waters just for Machamp.

Third, Machamp provided no value to the tier besides cheese. Pecharunt is a fantastic glue/pivot. It minimizes the hassle of teambuilding this gen by being one of the only splashable Ogerpon checks while also hard walling Zama. The reason Balance has been doing well is because of Pecha and/or Ting-Lu. Without them, the archetype is dead in the water Ogerpon drowned it in.


I find there to be more urgent issues in the meta that I’d rather see addressed. (third Kyurem suspect when?)
 
RNG isn't inherently uncompetitive, and shiloh's tiering post gives an example of when it is:

  • This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
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So, does Pecharunt swing games to an extent that "Did Malignant Chain proc?" is a major - or even the primary - factor in who wins?

Well...no. There's just too much counterplay:

1) Steel types, who are fully immune to the move. Kingambit can outboost Parting Shot with Swords Dance and shrugs off Hex, while Gholdengo is immune to Parting Shot and defensive sets can take a Hex just fine. Corviknight can either slow pivot or Defog, Iron Treads has STAB Earthquake or Earth Power, Iron Crown often runs AV and Future Sight into Volt Switch mitigates Parting Shot...

2) Poison types, who are immune to the RNG aspects of the move. Slowking-G is notable for being a slower pivot than Pech, meaning it'll absorb either the next attack or the Parting Shot debuff and win the momentum war, while healing off the damage with Regenerator.

Both of the above are also common enough defensive tera types, though that's obviously something that needs to have been used earlier in the match or off a double switch.

3) Status absorbers. Gliscor switches in freely and can either set up hazards or boost, and virtually all sets carry a super effective hit on Pech. Ursaluna immediately threatens Pech and can SD to outboost Parting Shot. Garganacl shrugs off the damage, can PP stall Pech's recovery if need be, and can set up Curses.

4) Anything that doesn't much care about toxic damage. This might be a breaker that doesn't need to live long to do its job, the odd Rest user who can heal it off, or a mon that plans to pivot in and out so toxic damage doesn't climb too high. The self-damage chance from Poison Puppeteer is 16.6%, after factoring in the chance to be poisoned at all, which isn't high enough that you need to avoid it at all costs.

Everything there also serves as a switch in to Toxic users in general, but they respond well to Pecharunt in specific, most notably having something to accomplish despite Parting Shot. They're also good mons, easily fit on a variety of team styles, so Pech isn't constraining building by forcing low-tier mons into OU usage.

It's RNG, but this is mons. People run Focus Blast over Aura Sphere, they run 90% accurate STAB moves, games are won by 20% Crunch defense drops, Flame Body and Static exist, critical hits exist, RNG is far too prevalent for "But it's RNG reliant!" to hold any weight when said RNG can be effectively managed.
 
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I will say getting your physical mons dunked on because pecharunt clicked tera and it got the lucky poison puppeteer proc is kinda uncompetitive and matchup fishy. Wouldn’t mind if it went

Also between the current brokens (Kyurem and Pecharunt) as well as the borderline brokens i’ve noticed tera as a whole is now becoming a common thread between them (Apart from maybe waterpon but like it definitely is helped by it.) just something to note.
 
BolTingBlazie said:
I will say getting your physical mons dunked on because pecharunt clicked tera and it got the lucky poison puppeteer proc is kinda uncompetitive and matchup fishy. Wouldn’t mind if it went

Also between the current brokens (Kyurem and Pecharunt) as well as the borderline brokens i’ve noticed tera as a whole is now becoming a common thread between them (Apart from maybe waterpon but like it definitely is helped by it.) just something to note.
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If no physical mon being able to safely switch into a move is, in and of itself, a sign that the move is banworthy, then Scald would have long since been banned. Super effective versus the only type immunity, the 30% chance on RNG is higher than most moves, and Burn is far more crippling to a physical attacker than poison or paralysis.
 
Pecharunt is effective at keeping strong physical attackers in check. Is Pecharunt more uncompetitive than Thunder Wave? No. Thunder Wave has a 25% chance to fully paralyze the opponent, while confusion has a 33% chance to confuse the opponent. The difference is that Malignant Chain only has a 50% chance to poison the target, and it only confuses the user for 1 to 4 turns or until they switch out. Additionally, you cannot confuse a target that is already statused or immune to poison. It’s not as if Pecharunt can simply set up and sweep if forcing a switch. Furthermore, it is weak to two of the three most commonly used Pokémon in OU.

Pecharunt brings significant value to the tier, and over the course of a battle, it is less uncompetitive than many existing mechanics or elements, such as Paralysis, Scald, Static, or Flame Body. For now, I'm strongly opposed to any kind of tiering action.
 
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AerionT's post basically summed up all of my thoughts, but I wanted to share my opinion here too. If we are going to make a suspect test / change on the tier, Pecharunt is, and I say this with no offense, one of the worst Pokémon you could choose.

I can understand the main argument: Mallignant Chain can rob games due to hax, and Pecharunt has seen a lot of use on the two first weeks of SPL and is getting more popular on the ladder. So we're seeing those robbed games more often than before.

Pecharunt has to hit land a poison on the target (50%, in a tier with pretty good steel types, a Pokémon inmune to status, another one that is already poisoned, an extremely safe lowkley brainless poison type pivot and a lot of tera poison / steel mons like Zama or Prim) then, the opponent has to hit itself (30%) then it can take fully advantage of it (without having with tera and even with it, Pecharunt needs a LOT of support to be a wincon even with those odds in its favour) so, as AerionT said, 16,67%.

Ogerpon has a 12,5% (similar odds) to crit and rob a game. Darkrai has a higher chance to flinch and rob a game. Kyurem has a 10% chance to rob a game with every special ice type move. Paralysis is asides from an awesome speed control a constant 25% of making every turn what Pecharunt can do once with good luck. Hell, Flame Body and Static are the only reason why Moltres and Zapdos are even used. So, are we going to ban all those Pokémon from the tier? Are we going to also ban paralysis?

There a lot, like, A LOT of stuff you can debate is constantly bringed up by the player base (Tera Blast, Kyurem, Waterpon, slowly Hisuian Samurott is getting some support, old stuff like Kingambit) can we instead please focus on that stuff. Machamp is not comparable to Pecharunt in almost anything imho. Pecharunt adds a lot of things to the tier in a good way and is a Pokémon with clear and balanced shortcomings.
 
this will likely not be considered, but it feels like a move ban would be more appropriate here. if a mon is overall fine but has a signature that's a bit cheesy and annoying, them it'd be more fitting to get rid of that move than the mon altogether, so that the punishment better fits the crime. i think a lot more people would be open to action on this if it wasn't so drastic
 
Pecharunt has some uncompetitive elements with malignant chain + poison puppeteer hax, but I agree with everyone saying that it's not much worse than TWave or Static (it does get more chances to pull its shenanigans off because of its bulk, typing, recovery and Parting shot.) I think Ting-Lu got more write-ins than Pecharunt in the latest survey, why is there no discussion about it - this guy always seems to enable to most degenerate, RNG based bulky-offense builds, earlier with ZapKingLu teams and now with Pech. Ting-Lu is such a brainless mon - it can stay in on anything and get spikes up. I think it'll become a much bigger problem if Wellspring is ever banned, because running Ting-Lu + Mola becomes free, so we might have a chance of banning it at that point (if that ever happens.)

To be clear, I don't think either of these (Pecharunt or Ting-Lu) will gather enough support for a ban and we're probably better off retesting Kyurem for the third time, and then proceeding from there (the only path for bans I can see based on surveys and previous qualified discussions is ban Kyurem -> ban Gliscor -> ??)
 
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Dive Missile said:
but it feels like a move ban would be more appropriate here. if a mon is overall fine but has a signature that's a bit cheesy and annoying,
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How? The cheesy part that people are complaining about (as I said unjustifiably) is Poison Puppeteer, not Malignant Chain itself. Malignant Chain itself is just a better Sludge Bomb.
 
Dreadfury said:
I just wanna point out that Ghold's immune to Parting Shot. Pecharunt is either switching out or is just going for the Hex in this scenario since Parting Shot fails thanks to Good as Gold.
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Right, I recently found out that Clear Body blocks parting shot as well. You obviously can't switch Clear Body Dragapult in because it takes a shit ton from Hex and doesn't want to be poisoned + confused, since most Clear Body Pults are banded. Soundproof does as well, but I don't think anything viable in OU always runs Soundproof (Kommo-o can run it, but may also run Bulletproof)

Neither of these mons are immune to Poison and can do what Ghold does, so that's a moot point anyway.
 
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Lily said:
Yes, they're listed in the post you quoted. I suggest you read it rather than be purely reactionary, so you can make a constructive post like everyone else has.

I'll remind you and others about this post, as it similarly applies to this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-info-and-announcements.3710769/post-10423215

Don't be an ass.

Appreciate all the feedback on both ends so far, thanks everyone :)
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If something that is on the radar is seen as a “joke” by much of the community, it will be treated as such during discussion in suspect threads. Just my 2 cents.
 
Lily said:
Hi folks, we're still discussing the recent survey results and are considering action in the nearish future, but there is something we didn't cover on the survey and as a result it got tons of write-ins. If you've been following SPL at all you've likely seen the dominance of Pecharunt, and the council has been questioning whether or not its metagame impact is positive.

:sv/pecharunt:
Pech's bag of tricks is simple but extremely effective - its just-perfect Speed tier, mammoth physical bulk and, most importantly, combination of Malignant Chain & Poison Puppeteer make it a complete nightmare to switch into. In addition to this, the combo of instant recovery & Parting Shot makes it really tough to wear Pecharunt down; few things threaten it, outspeed it, and switch into it, so it can essentially always get a free Parting Shot off to enable a teammate an easier pivot. With the SV OU landscape having few Poison-immune Pokemon, Pecharunt's Malignant Chain + Hex combination can be a real nightmare to switch into; it doesn't do much damage to stuff like Ting-Lu but they get worn down fast by Toxic poison, and typical absorbers like Gholdengo and Gliscor take a decent amount from Hex, so switching into the runt is tough despite low SpA. However, it's the ability that really drives it over the edge.

We've all seen it by now; Pecharunt switches in on Great Tusk's Headlong Rush and somehow still proceeds to win the 1v1 all because it got a toxic -> selfhit -> Recover spam. Or it manages to get through a Ting-Lu, or a Hisuian Samurott, or something else with a high power STAB move that it has no business beating. It's infuriating to be on the other side of.

Of course there are options to limit it; Iron Treads is a spinner capable of annoying it, weakening the PechLu core. There are status absorbers that don't care much about what it does like Garganacl, and of course it's Kingambit food - but Parting Shot is a real pain for these guys, and Pecharunt has a habit of outlasting them if it doesn't get sacked to a Headlong Rush off the rip. It can also have trouble against Galarian Slowking, but that's a Pokemon Pecharunt has nearly pushed out of the metagame at this point, because what makes Pech so frustrating is just how valuable it is defensively.

It checks the DDers, it checks Zamazenta, it checks Valiant, it checks Ogerpon, it checks Cinderace, the thing 1v1s Tusk and Lu, and with Tera there's basically no physical attacker it can't beat. That's a huge amount of role compression! It's no wonder the best players are so eager to build with it, but that only magnifies the issue of Pecharunt Roulette.

Basically, it comes down to this. The Toxic + Confusion combination is super frustrating for basically everything and having games dictated on whether or not Pecharunt manages to make it happen is something we're not sure is desirable. It's hardly an RNG matchup fish, since it's very bulky and pretty fast and gets plenty of opportunities to click the move, but it's still a major nuisance. We're not looking into any action yet but want to gauge the community's pulse on it. Thanks!
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The fact that Pecha beats most of the DDers is a good thing imo - most of these guys have WAY too much variation, beat many of their usual counters with the slightest adaptations. Pecharunt being (mostly) reliable at stuffing them gives teams more outs against them rather than running Ting-Lu on every build.

Uninvested Hex is also weak as hell, basically does no damage to the guys like Gliscor or Gholdengo. I suppose you do pressure them decently into recovering more often, esp if supported with another check like Ting-lu (in Ghold's case). Against Gliscor, you kinda fuck it over with Parting Shot as well I suppose.

0 SpA Pecharunt Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 138-164 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Pecharunt Hex (130 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 111-132 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 53.8% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal

I also don't exactly consider pecha too reliable vs Iron Valiant either since its screwed over by one of its most common coverage moves, Shadow Ball.

I do think Pechrunt's haxing ability is annoying, but frankly far less so than many existing threats like Zapdos. Its ability to Parting Shot so effortlessly may also be problematic in enabling one's own threats, which is a perspective I understand a bit more than the Hax angle.

ATM I think its ability to blanket check physical attackers is a net positive, but I also understand why other players may find it problematic when combined with the Hax factor of Malginant Chain / Toxic. Still, it is pressured hard by most Gliscor builds if well played, as well as a few other mons like Corv are difficult MUs as well, where it feels like you are forced to Spam Parting Shot rather than lose the PP of all your moves. Darkrai can also kinda fry a lot of these common Pecharunt builds imo.

Currently Pecha seems like the hot topic of the weak, not too dissimilar compared to a few other mons. I feel like it's prominence will decrease in the coming weeks, though we will see more clearly as the meta developes.
 
please. for the love of god. can we stop approaching tiering from the perspective of “does this make the tier better or not?”. such things are downstream of the actual crux of the issue, that being: is this element broken/uncompetitive on its merits alone.

the meta will become “better” (as understood as more competitive) as a natural result of eliminating elements found to be broken/uncompetitive.

i can’t really pinpoint when the shift from sound tiering principles to this sort of approach occurred, but it is incredibly disheartening to see prominent members such as Lily legitimise this perspective (“you've likely seen the dominance of Pecharunt, and the council has been questioning whether or not its metagame impact is positive.”).

in my view, this shift in general sentiment is responsible for the tiering impasse that has plagued this generation. we need to get back to assessing whether or not any element has sufficient reasonable counterplay (is it broken?) & whether or not it is uncompetitive (does it minimise the influence of player choice in match outcomes?).

instead of these sound foundational criteria, far too commonly i see people willingly accept elements that are overwhelmingly strong based upon the reasoning that “things will be a bit worse without it”, missing the point that, should issues arise from bans - foreseen or otherwise - we would be justified in addressing those also, leading us closer to the ideal meta.

it’s as though the meta itself is controlling tiering rationale, which is a total inversion of what good tiering looks like.
 
While I appreciate the Council's commitment to being alert to Pecharunt's rise, I want to warn about the possibility of another Walking Wake case, where after a brief rise and suspected, it was deemed manageable and is now far from any radar.
I'm not saying to take our eyes off Pecharunt. But we have things that have been on the table for months like Ogerpon-Wellspring and other more controversial ones like Kyurem, Tera Blast, and Kingambit.
 
Forgive me if the wording didn't get the point across properly tigers jaw, we're simply trying to start questioning whether or not Pech falls under the broken and/or uncompetitive umbrella. Those principles haven't left - they've founded every test this generation (minus palafin). In fact, they're fresh in the mind, as they're currently being brought up to date by tiering administration (last update was 2018!). It's not always possible to control how everyone votes, and there have been a few tests where fear mongering have played a role in the outcome (Kingambit, Kyurem come to mind). For better or worse that's just how it is, though, unless we start making people justify their votes.

The reason Pech's viability comes into the equation & was mentioned in the OP as opposed to just quoting the tiering policy framework is that it's not similar to arguably uncompetitive elements that have been banned in the past - unlike Kings Rock, DPP Machamp, or whatever else, Pecharunt itself is an extremely good and easy-to-fit Pokemon. It kinda magnifies the issue a lot by being at the level of usage it's receiving (which I think is like 20% in SCL but I haven't checked). Viability *does* matter - if it didn't we'd be chasing our tails trying to get rid of Flatter or Relic Song or whatever else. There is a line to be walked regarding whether or not a "cheese" strategy (which IMO doesn't truly describe Pecharunt) is actually optimal - when it becomes the best tactic available or close to it, our job is to at least question that.

It's pretty unlikely anything happens in the near future based on community input here, so nothing to stress over. Just wanted to let you know I appreciate your perspective & offer my own.
 
terablast is a red herring & totally incoherent when it comes to tiering action. the power level of the tier is & always has been far too high to facilitate anything but volatility.

as it stands (& has always stood with g9), there are too many pokemon that are too strong & adept at their roles. pretty much every single top threat has a multitude of sets that circumvent their conventional, would-be checks, or only needs a single set to achieve the same result - something that was a death knell for pokemon in previous generations.

i will forever maintain that the continued inclusion of tera itself is a titanic mistake. how on earth people abide by the capacity for any pokemon to nullify, at a moment’s notice, the opponent’s prepared answers to top threats is a mystery to me. it is fundamentally uncompetitive & undermines the necessary predictability of the game both in play & prep - the very thing that strategising relies upon.

this generation has been a farce from the beginning, lead astray by users such as vertex & ctc using their social capital to advance their abysmal reasoning & incoherent argumentation, at the expense of the meta & playerbase at large.

—————

with all due respect, Lily, i don’t accept your comment. tier leaders such as yourself & council members have a responsibility to reiterate & correct those who are unaware - something i never, ever see around these parts. do better. i say: do away with votes. come up with a shortlist of suspect elements (gambit, tera, kyurem, ogre, zama, ting, etc.) & get the fuck rid of them.
 
Hydrametr0nice said:
Lily just out of curiosity and as the UU Leader, I would like to know if there was ever any kind of anti-Pecharunt movement while it was in UU.
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I'm not Lily, but there never was. It was held back because Excadrill, the tier's best spinner and a decent Pecha answer, has been a consistent top two mon, on top of unfavorable meta conditions like Ursaluna being good and the dark spam that's been pretty persistent recently. It was definitely annoying for fatter teams (eg stall hated it because up until clod dropped the NP set forces poison/steel Skeledirge on every team), but it didn't really move the needle when we've had stuff like Hoopa-U, Ursaluna, Okidogi, etc. tearing up the meta.
 
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Hydrametr0nice said:
Lily just out of curiosity and as the UU Leader, I would like to know if there was ever any kind of anti-Pecharunt movement while it was in UU.
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someone alr responded but it was also starting to see more usage towards before it rose. It was irritating asf and wearing down exca was pretty nice as parting shot generally meant smth can come in or NP + maligalint chain can hax a lot of things alonsgide tera can be very very frustrating esp since its very physically bulky and even stuff like hoopa, zarude, weavile could not kill it while it can take advantage of skarmory, slowking, and other mons
 
I believe pech is fine in ou for now. The rng, while not great, does not outweigh the good it does for the tier by serving as a good answer to mons like zama and wellspring, being probably the best pokemon that can consistently pivot into waterpon. As noted by others, the odds are also considerably lower than dpp machamp confusion. Additionally, while i do not play dpp, i am certain that machamp does not bring nearly as much defensive value as pech. Personally i would just ban malignant bc im bkc-pilled but i’m aware that’s not possible (and probably wont fully solve the pech issue)
 
Banning, taking tiering action, etc on Pech is a massive mistake and not at all required. I'm sure that its usage after being seen as a joke is very surprising as such, but I find wanting to take action against Pech while other insane threats that have even higher levels of RNG and raw effectiveness to be a massive overreaction by extension. The Tinglu and Pech core might be very strong, but I do not find it problematic enough to require Pech to be suspected at all.
 
The hax can definitely make it 1v1 some mons that it feels like it shouldn't, but in practice I feel most of the mons it does that to weren't really effective checks anyway; something like Tusk not 1v1ing it for free isn't all that surprising when Pech has such monstrous bulk and hits so hard back with Hex. The mon has effective checks, confusion or no confusion, and I think it provides a healthy presence as another blocker that is still somewhat threatening to the main spinner of the tier, but with its own flavor distinct from Gholdengo.
 
I think looking into Ting-Lu would be a more productive way to address spike stacking being so dominant - if looking into Gliscor instead of Ghold was proper during DLC1, it would only make sense to address Lu before Pech now. Pech is extremely good and quite a challenge to wear down, parting shot factoring into this majorly, so I think there's merit in this and it's worth looking into. But Lu first.
 
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